People keep telling me that custom bows are where its at. Ive shot them and they are nice shooters indeed. However I recently accuired a cheap production line Bear Montana and it shoots fantastic. Smooth, forgiving, accurate in my hands. In 30 minutes after i finally got my nock point set up right, I was hitting the bulls eye at 25 yards with both fletched and bare shaft arrows? So the big question, are expensive bows really worth it? If so why?
A custom bow does not the shooter make!
We shot the Mayflower shoot last year and afterwards they had an aerial target area set up with flu flu's & a guy launching the targets for everyone to try.
There was this young kid there, maybe 15-16 years old. He was "schooling" everyone with one of those cheapie Samick Sage recurves. Just nailing the target with those flu flu's, like 75% of the time. I was scared to shoot with my nice custom bow :scared: :scared: >>>------------->>
I started with a bear montana lb and it was a great bow, tuned easily as you said. When I got my northern mist baraga, no comparison for me. The baraga was smoother, faster, no hand shock, and more accurate for me. To each their own as they say, just keep it fun.
If you like purty things they're worth every penny. Some are beyond function and become works of art.
Izzy, I think you just nailed it. Bows, knives, guns, there is a point where functionality is passed and you get into the intangible "art" area. You can pay small bucks and get something that works. Pay a few more and you get into the area where of something that works well. From there on, it's pride of ownership that gets involved.
Just like that kid who was clobbering the aerial targets, I've seen young kids come out to our skeet range and do some credible shooting with an el cheapo Walmart special. But what do they do when they can afford it? Buy a fancier one of course. Bigger boys; fancier toys :)
You take any bow, fancy or not, get it in tune with the right arrow and I doubt anyone will have a problem with the arrow flight or notice the difference. Yes fancy bows have their place but it is a complete farce that they shoot any better than a plain Jane Bow. I have a couple of Fancy bows and I take pleasure in the craftsmanship of the bow and the vision the bowyer put in. In the same respect I have a Guava Self bow that the simple beauty of this bow is simply outstanding. Shoot straight, is all that counts in the end.
Yep.....Izzy.....you're a smart man! A custom bow can built pretty much to your specifications, ie, grip, exact poundage, woods, tiller. Generic bows work well too, it all depends on the individual. And. As Izzy said, they're beyond shooting performance.
I've always drooled over custom bows because as the others have said they are works of art and sometimes beyond works of art! With that being said when it comes down to pure shootability, I still shoot my old Damon Howatt bows the best! That's the great thing, seems like there's an endless supply of choices out there when it comes to trad bows :campfire:
Absolutely nothing wrong with production bows and the argument can be made that company resources allow for more research and development, quality control, etc.
But...
There are too many fine custom bowyers out there on the cutting edge of R and D (I'm thinking about Sixby and Kirkll), who can fit a bow to an individual, whose integrity insures the quality and with artistic skills to match that make a custom bow worth every penny.
I don't wear designer clothes, drive a standard pickup and cut my own hair, but I won't keep an ugly bow.
Cheap shotguns, Cheap waterskis, Cheap Flyrods, Cheap baseball bats, Cheap Bows all work....Some custom things work better how much? Thats the question I have alot of both. My son shoots a Black Widow SA111 cost $1000 bucks and a Cheatah Special that cost $40 guess wich one he killed his deer with this year. Is the Black Widow a better bow? No doubt about it but both "work" It' personal preferece.
Its a personal thing for me. Nothing against anything that's not "custom", I like to make a bow "part of me", "part of my family".
Yes, many custom bows are simply handmade art and do not function better than cheaper factory bows. HOWEVER, some actually do both. Some are indeed highly functional art. The Montana is a great bow for what it is, but there are some similar bows by custom makers that would make you laugh at the Montana after shooting them back to back with it and doing a hard comparison and taking into account things like feet per second, smoothness of draw, lack of vibration on release, hand placement/handle customization, etc. A tempered bamboo David Miller Hill style bow is one for sure. As far as custom longbows in general, right off the top of my head two makes of bow that both are artwork AND peform amazingly and I wager better than just about any factory bow, including the Montana and Samick Sage, are either Zipper bows or Leon Stewarts. Now let me qualify these statements with this: the shooter of course is a HUGE part of the equation. Also, not everyone wants to spend over 1K on a bow, to keep it in perspective a Sage only costs $130 and you get HUGE bang for your buck with that. A Montana is $330 and also you get A LOT for your money. So yeah, for some it is about economy and return on the investment. But hey that's what the classifieds are for!! Hahaha!
you can pass the montana down to your heirs they are overbuilt good shooting bows depends on what a guy wants for a solid hunting bow that can take abuse and not worry about to me they are the best value in a longbow right now, that being said i love my customs but have no problem hunting with a bear montana!
iv'e had a hundred bows and the montana with a catwhisker on the string is the quietest bow i have ever shot almost silent if thats possible!
You could buy a Mad Dog or Don Dow for less money and have better custom built bow.
To me it's like the choices in cars. I can drive a ford F150. It's functional reliable and will get there. Or I can drive a Mercedes AMG. Do the same thing but oh so much nicer.
I like pretty bows for everyday shooting and 3D's and like someone mentioned these have turned into pieces of art. Many gifted bowyers out there today,true crafstman.
Hunting, give me my plain jane old faithful.
QuoteOriginally posted by britt:
You could buy a Mad Dog or Don Dow for less money and have better custom built bow.
Good point. The Montana definitely is a tough 'i don't give a crap' kinda of a bow though, wouldn't hesitate to take one through hell and use it as a spear if necessary. Should have kept mine, oh well, got plenty of other bows.
The other thing to remember is that a good production bow can cost almost as much as a custom in some cases - for example, a Martin Hunter costs about 550.00, whereas an RER Vital (A custom takedown) costs about 650.00. It's possible to spend more than 500.00 on a production bow and less than 500.00 on a custom bow.
I think a lot of the appeal of a custom bow is knowing who made it, how it was made, and that it's to your specs - especially if you have a long draw length. It's not necessarily performance.
A long time ago bows, guns, fish'n poles, etc. I didn't pay much attention to how they looked as long as they preformed. Now days I like be able to look at a bow and get a good feeling...not sure why things changed unless I just had a lot of other pretty things to look at back when I was younger.
An old buddy told me that it's not the equipment it's the person behind it. Some of his gear was duct taped, tie wrapped like you wouldn't believe. He was good at everything.
That said life is too short to shoot an ugly bow lol
I know when I was younger and didn't have much money I had a bow that was cheaper,it wasn't ugly but it wasn't a custom either. I do like the better looking bows if they shoot good. I catch myself looking at my bow or my arrows waiting for something to come by.
Obviously fancy figured veneers and exotic woods are not going to make a bow shoot better. Pick one of the top custom bowyers, have him build a bow with all the bells and whistles and one plain Jane out of actionwood, black glass...etc and they're gonna shoot the same. It's the design of the bow not the window dressing. So why by custom? Cause people like nice stuff. If everything were just about functionality and getting the job done, you could argue about the purpose of buying anything nice. Heck a table made out of a sheet of plywood and four 2x4 legs will serve the purpose, why go buy a nice looking dining room table.
As OBX said above... I've always heard archery has less to do with the bow, than the Indian behind it...but as soon as I figure out a way to afford it / convince my other half I need it, I'm gonna buy a purty one (bow that is) :)
I tested many bows over the last few years (between 300 and 400). I found a bow to be a very subjective individual thing.
As far as performance goes most bows today all perform close to each other. Some stand out from a performance perspective, but in my opinion not enough to be the determining factor as to what bow a person likes.
I bought a new, in the box, old Wing takedown recurve for $3 at a flea market. It was as fast as most other high end bows we tested.
Find one you like and want to shoot and stick with it. If you like it you will shoot it alot, whether it costs $1800 or $18.
I also collect longbows because some I do feel are works of art. Some guys collect stamps or coins, I collect longbows. It is all good.
I have been shooting for 54 years and one thing I know is that today is the hayday for Traditional archery. We have many great bowyers, sites like this for information, the internet to find the answer to everything. It is good to be us these days.
Gil
My hangup is this... My sister is the artist and I am the mechanic in the family. I never stare at my tools because they are beautiful. I appreciate art and music and that kind of sutff. Its just i dont yet understand pretty tools. When im with my dad and he talks about nice sports cars, I am thinking "what a waste of money." I bought my toyota tacoma because it is bomb proof and i can put deer, dogs, and luggage in the back. Im just worried if i got a nice bow that id always be worried about scratching it. I use my stuff hard. Its not that i am against custom bows, i am against delicate things that pretend to be tools. Maybe i just need to age a bit...
Please, don't take this the wrong way. I had a Bear Montana, and that is why I bought a custom bow. I'm not saying I needed to buy a custom bow but the hand shock I got from the Bear was adversely effecting my shooting. My other Bear bows did not give me any hand shock.
Now that was me, my friend who bought the bow from me, doesn't seem to mind the hand shock and he likes the bow, but he also has custom bows that he can also shoot if he wants.
There are a few bows that I shoot better than others, and one of those is a Bear kodiak.
I like Custom bows because typically they are pure art and you can have them made to your specs. That said I still shoot my old Bear Montana as well it's a great longbow at an even better price.
I think the money I have spent on custom bows was well spent. I shoot a lot. I shoot 3D, field, or whatever. I just love to shoot my bows. That said, I also love to hunt. I do not have any really "works of art" type bows. They may be pretty, but they are hunters. The extra money I spend on a custom is to have a bow built to my specs that I will love to shoot and hunt with. I never have the prettiest bow in the woods, but I hit what I aim at.
The secret is to find one that feels like it belongs in your hand and is just an extension of yourself. You can shoot a lot of bows and shoot them well, but maybe only one of them feels "right".
You know when I was a kid I had a pair of bino's from a department store. They were awsome, brought things in close to see and I thought they were the cats meow.
That is until I looked through what was considered at that time a medocore pair of glasses for that time. Bought em and never considered useing those cheap glasses again.
Sure alot of things will work. But in the end use what you enjoy useing.
If you're content with a bow that you can shoot well, then stay with it. That's the beauty of this way of bow hunting, there's something for every one
My take is this... I too agree with a lot of the sentiments here in that customs just allow you to personalize your stuff more to your liking. Plus in some situations there are definite performance and aesthetic purposes. If I was a Recurve shooter I would own a Super Kodiak because I think they are beautiful and yet very good in performance, fit, finish, etc etc. But for the money I spend on my SK I could buy a very nice custom also. But since I like to shoot American Semi-longbows I have to (not a bad thing at all) go custom.
The Bear Montana was one of my first longbows and I loved it dearly. If I was in a position where I did not have hobby money I could be perfectly content shooting the bear montana the the Beman ICS hunters with Thunderhead BH and be very very deadly with that setup. Some people spend more on arrows and heads than others can afford to spend on a bow and that is fine.
For me it is like knives in that I will ONLY carry a Buck knife. They aren't the most expensive and they aren't the cheapest but I feel they are the best. I have a few custom 110s floating around that are nothing but show pieces but could be used if I had to.
Oh and I am hard on equipment
QuoteFind one you like and want to shoot and stick with it. If you like it you will shoot it alot, whether it costs $1800 or $18.
X2
QuoteIts not that i am against custom bows, i am against delicate things that pretend to be tools.
Make no mistake, under that pretty wood its all bow. If your afraid to scratch it maybe ya better not get one. Not me, I buy them use and they will show it in time.
Eric
QuoteOriginally posted by OBXarcher:
That said life is too short to shoot an ugly bow
This is my thinking exactly! :bigsmyl:
Bows no longer in vogue still shoot as good as when they were the latest, greatest and are usually a good value.
Depends on your definition of ugly. Seen many a plain bow that looked far better, to me, than one made with a half dozen, or so, different woods.
I have owned the prettiest bow out there, and I have heard many people say the same thing about this particular bowyer that I won't mention. It was the prettiest bow I have ever owned and the worst performing bow I have ever owned.
Moral of the story, I would rather own the ugliest bow in the world that was a top performer, then have a second or third rate beauty.
Have you ever seen Stevie Ray Vaughn's guitar?
The best traditional bow is the bow that FITS you and your needs the best.
If you can find a $5 garage sell special that does that then great. If you build your own self-bow then great. If a high end custom does that for you then great.
The VALUE of a custom is that you can more or less have a bow MADE to fit you and your needs perfectly as well as look as plain or fancy as you like. If you have the funds and enough experience to know what really works best for you then by-all-means custom is the way to go. If you don't then who cares? There are hundreds of excellent bows that can be picked up used and sold off until you find something that fits your needs just right.
I will agree that a bow by no means needs to be expensive to be a great bow. I have had a few that were bought for half the price of others that I owned and were better shooters. Every now and then I just want something different and that means more expensive sometimes. I just bought a very nice, and expensive Robertson Primal Styk. I could have bought a couple of other bows for the price of this one. But I did not want to wait and I looked at the bow so much I just jumped on it.
Heres my take on this, the bow that you shoot well and are comfortable with is the one for you, custom or not. Its the time and dedication that you put into becoming the best you can be with any bow,....that is what makes the difference.
One of my favorite bows is one that was said by the previous owner to be the worst piece of sh*# he had ever shot. Its not a custom, but after some tuning and matching it to the right arrow, its a doll baby as well as a great performer. Sometimes all that bling, dont mean a thing.
To each his own-Hyundai or Mercedes-lots of choices; pick whatever you like and makes you happy.
That's what I thought too. I think looks and customization has a lot to do with it. Of course if you like the bow then you do tend to shoot better with it.
Jimmy Blackmon recently posted a video of a cheap Samick Verna longbow. Its a fast and flat shooter and he has no problem drilling them in the spot arrow after arrow. I think cheap bows can perform well but the durability can be questionable.
Shoot what you like. Just know that more money doesn't always equal more bow. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. A friend of mine has about $1,000 tied up in a bow that can't be shot...and it's not pretty to boot.
Any fishermen in the house here?... Good example might be saying an "Eagle Claw" fiberglass rod catches just as many fish as a "Lami-glass certified pro" does....
but..... once you've fished with a top of the line rod, it's really difficult to go back to fiberglass....Night and day difference.
For the discriminating archer, there is nothing finer than a high quality custom bow..... Kirk
Our tastes and priorities vary that's for sure. Archery, is pretty much my only serious "hobby" (life-style really). I'm going to own the best performing, best looking (according to my tastes) that I can afford.
I have found that bowyers like Kirk at Bigfoot can ask a customer 2-3 questions and custom build a bow that fits too a "T" and will be a top-performer. For Kirk to do this he only need's a persons: I-Q, Favorite Color, and Social Security number (I didn't like sharing my favorite color).
I also have a mass-produced bow that is an really good performer but it is pretty plain Jane looking.
I have five bows. A couple are expensive bows that I bought used, so I got a little better deal.
Each of my bows feel a little unique . . . like a little different personality. I have a bow that I paid $250 for that I like as much as a bow that I paid over $600 for (both used). I don't want to sell either, and when I am shooting, I never remember how much I paid.
My passion is shooting trad. bows.
If I can shoot one, and have it be a real looker, that is like a two for one.
Agree with everyone about liking how much better a custom bow looks. But here is what I found as I "made my way" from production bows through custom bows.
My first longbow was a Barta bow in2006. I shot and shot and shot that bow trying to "discover" my form. There was nothing bad about the Barta bow to me.
Late 2007, I acquired a Tomahawk Diamond SS. Wow, that little bit of handshock I didn't even realize was there was gone. I was a lot more accurate with this bow too.
I lived life with only those 2 bows for a couple or three years.
Then I started trying some custom bows. Stalker, MOAB, Thundrchild, Whip.
Now, and I still have a long way to go, I can see what an improvement these bows are over the Barta bow. Any of you that know me know I am an unabashed MOAB fan.
Yes, when the string is drawn and released both the Barta bow and the MOAB spit out and arrow. There, though, for me at least, is where the shooting experiences diverge. The difference in handshock, sound, smoothness are quiet different.
I've never shot a Bear Montana. I do, however, own 4 Bear recurves and they are fine, fine bows. I'm sure the Montana follows that line.
I could care less what the guy I'm hunting with is shooting. I have had buddies in the past who have something negative to say about everyone else's gear, but go on and on about how perfect their's is. That is a huge turnoff for me and I rarely share camp with those people again.
It's funny, but it took me a while to realize that I am the only person that has to be satisfied with my bow.
Ken
You can catch trout on a 5$ dollar yardsale special shakesphere flyrod.....or on a $600.00 graphite Winston flyrod...or on a 4,00.00 dollar Payne split bamboo/cane flyrod and all will work. The question that beacons is which do you get the highest degree of satisfaction out of using and better yet owning???? If it's the $5 dollar Shakesphere...then go for it...there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with that. I just personally like something with a little finer finish and appointments.....it gives me great pride in owning it. Not a wrong answer here....
I have several bows that money won't buy, even though most aren't worth that much on the open market.
In no particular order.....
An Osage selfbow a friend made for me. Won a lot of trophies with it, including the Howard Hill...twice. Cost: $0
My first selfbow (hickory). Actually the only one I've made to date--made this one with a LOT of "adult supervision". Won the Tennessee Classic Selfbow Challenge with it. Cost: $0
An Eric Krewson BBO. This one is a constant reminder of Eric's character and what kind of friend he is, as that's the only way to get one. Cost: $0
Vintage Herter's recurve. Haven't even shot it yet--kind of afraid to, because I don't want to break it. Given to me by another good friend. Cost: $0
A "fake Chocktaw". Made with Mr. Jerry Pierce's woods, with his equipment, on his form...by his son-in-law about a year after Mr. Jerry passed away. Mr. Jerry's son, Lenny, gave me this bow. Cost: $0
The longbow I killed my first deer with. Can't remember if I bought it or traded for it. Either way, cost: CHEAP
These are all (well, except the Herters, which I'm not sure of) excellent shooters as well.
Some are beautiful (the Eric Krewson BBO is a functional work of art), some unusual (the "fake" Choctaw has gold nuggets inlayed in the riser and gold dust under the limb glass), some have character (my osage selfbow), some are pretty plain (the selfbow I made), etc.
No "custom" bow could ever replace any of these, regardless of how they shoot or look, and nobody is any prouder of their bows than I am of these.
Sure, you can fish with cheap or expensive...but at the end of the day, who is the most impressive?
The one with the most fish, regardless of what pole they used...and that's usually the one who had the most fun fishing too.
Obviously you've never handled a Lami-glass certified Pro Rod Chad.... you missed the point...
Some folks may never experience the difference, or truly appreciate it.... others just don't care.
The thread was about "are expensive custom bows really worth it?"
I can safely say there are a lot of guys out there that do think it is worth every dime. Kirk
wouldn't marry an ugly woman with no fire in her and won't own an ugly bow with no fire in her. thats my story. I have during my entire life loved and appreciated the best. When I bought a rifle I bought the best. When I married a woman I was blessed with the best. When I bought bows I bought the best, When I bought or made arrows I bought the best or made them the best I could. When I build a bow it is going to be a bow I would be proud to own. If you are happy with what you have then you are indeed blessed but you may not have the best. I continually see people saying on these threads that such and such a bow is the premier bow of all time and the absolute best. Sometimes they actually believe that but until they have tried out every bow of that type and actually done that with no bias their touting is in vain. Even then they may have only the best for them. Not for me and vice versa.
Quality does come with a price.; Unless a man charges enough for the quality and time for his work he will not be doing it long. So to survive he must charge for that time , ability , material and overhead to not only cover the cost but to provide incentive to continue. This means true quality costs and it is expensive.
I can use Snapon tools or I can use tools for 1/4 the price. Both will get the job done. One will last a lifetime and one has a short lifetime. So onetime I spend the money to get the best I know of and have used and I do not complain but I proudly put them in my Snap0on roll-away and have them to use.
One thing when I see these threads.People bragging that a certain builder is the best and his bows are the best and nothing else is comparable. Yet those people have not tried all the bows of that type. therefore their testimony simply says , Hey this is a great bow.
You may pay out a lot of money and actually get a great product and it not be the best. The price does not mean its the best. But in bows if you get top design, top workmanship, top quality in all respects and you love the bow then its worth whatever price you paid.; If you don't love it then its absolutely worthless regardless of all the hype and reputation ect./
God bless you all, Steve
Production bows don't hold a candle to a custom bow.
That's merely my opinion though.The fit and finish,the shootablity,the speed,everything.
If most of us who have had good luck with standard production bows were asked why we choose to to go to more beautiful and expensive custom bows, I suspect the most common answer, if we are truly honest, would simply be "Because I can".
I have had some very nice bows that were custom made for someone else. The classifieds let that happen at a fraction of the cost. It let me try some great bows and sort out what I like and then led me to custom stuff like Northern Mist and Holm-Made, which I have several of now! It all depends on what you like or want.
I look at it this way if you can afford it why not ,you only live once. Don
Steve,
Great post.....people should read it twice...then think about it and read it again.
As a former trad shop owner...YES they are worth it. I dealt both production and custom bows here and 90% of the customers who went Custom, shot production bows and wanted something more tailored for their shooting style and eye appealing.
I believe Martin Archery made the best production bow for the 15 yrs I ran my shop. Quality and Performance in each bow. BUT you got a standard model, with standard grip, riser shape etc..You had to adjust to the bow (especially the grip) to become proficient. Limb woods...whatever they used.
The custom bowyer will detail your bow to the exact specifications you want. Shape the riser, offer low/med/high grip, tiller the bow for you if you shoot 3 under, offers many different woods for your riser, limbs and overlays. It's a work of art with quality in every aspect of bow building. Plus, ONE MAN is doing all the work.
One man building bows, time consuming with alot of overhead. Belt sanders, grinders, tools, shipping materials, grinding lams, epoxies, sealers etc...His time is worth more than $10 an hour. If your satisfied with the Bear, Great. Nothing wrong with that. Just remember, it came off an assembly line where many hands performed the final finish once it left the press.
Yessss! They are worth it. Every penny...For me at least.... When a bowyer does his job right, AND you are skilled enough to describe what you like in a bow, you will end up with a bow who meets your needs exactly.
It will be a great shooter for you, with the right grip and that fantastic look you like. It is a joy to shoot such a bow and it makes your hearth sing to shoot with it...
Flying Dutchman made a great point about getting the most of a custom order. If you really know what you like, beyond the aesthetics and obvious specifications such as draw weight and length, one can maximize the value of the custom bow.
Personally, I think the most important thing to know is how your bowhand should be set on the grip. Then go for a grip that helps you do this subconsciously without variation. I've bought several used bows (and sold and traded them as well). I think that is a great way to get into a top-notch bow without waiting for months or years and to save a few hundred dollars (some times).
However, the grip on these acquisitions will be a coin toss whether or not you are going to like em. Most are too thick at the throat for me - I like a grip throat smaller than 5" for instance. Locator grips (finger grooves on the back-type) can be perfect for one size hand/fingers and not spaced properly for others. Some like checkering and some don't.
I find it somewhat of a duanting task to set aside many hundreds of dollars and then making these decisions. For better or worse, most bowyers will give you what you want, then it's on you.
My first custom bow is a beautiful thing that is no longer made. I picked the woods, accent, etc. I went a little too wild I think. The woods used were exceptional for the species but together with a very contrasting accent stripe it is a bit overwhelming. Thank goodness the bowyer slowed me down a bit -- I'm probably his only customer who ever asked for a BLUE accent strip. He didn't do it, thank goodness.
I have had to talk a couple fellows in to installing a Bear Compass in some pretty nice bows. Two of three did it and I love those bows -- still have both of them. Another bowyer forgot to do it. In fairness, he offered to make it right but I didn't want to return the riser. I don't have that bow any longer.
I had a whole conversation with Abe from Caribow about the grip and heel-height and width of troath. He made it just perfect for me. I think most bowyers can do that. But it is important that you yourself know what you want. If you can't formulate what you want, the bowyer can't make it!
QuoteOriginally posted by Izzy:
If you like purty things they're worth every penny. Some are beyond function and become works of art.
I think Izzy really summed it up pretty well for standardized customs. However, the service, fit and unique support one can get from anything custom made for the person is sometimes forgotten when the item is truly being built uniquely to the buyer's needs vs. the buyer's wants & desires.
I also believe a great deal of genuine friendships are often formed during the custom build process and you just can't put a price on that!
One of my favorite custom bows was black glass and gray action wood. I would love to have that back. I actually like a plainer hunting bow at times because I don't worry about it as much. I take the best care possible of my stuff even if not so pretty. I do hunt the nice ones as well. But I don't take my best stuff in the harshest conditions.
To me the most important part of a bow is how well it performs, feels and how accurately it shoots for me. Looks are just icing. No amount of fancy window dressing will make a bad bow shoot well, and A good deal no matter how good, can make a bad bow shoot great.
Some boyers will build you a plain Jane black glass and action or diamond wood one piece riser for less than their standard clear glass and choice of exotic wood limb veneers and risers if you ask for that and do a little negotiation. For a couple hundred dollars or some times less, you can still get the grip and draw weight the way you want and all the extra performance the better customs have over budget factory bows.
As far as the Bear Montana in question goes, I have shot them. For me that is a waste of money. I can't stand the grip or the way it shoots. To be fair, I have felt the same way about bows costing way more. I wish I loved it. I could have a couple of them for the price they sell at. I love a great deal! But there are at least a dozen longbows that blow it away for me, and they are well work the extra money.
QuoteObviously you've never handled a Lami-glass certified Pro Rod Chad.... you missed the point...
Nope to both. Fishing isn't my "thing", although I have had a blast with an old cane pole I cut myself, and I've had lousy days with expensive equipment. The difference? Catching fish.
Some folks might have more fun fishing with expensive rods vs. catching fish with cheap rods, but I'd bet most are the opposite.
I didn't miss the point, I made a point (obviously missed).
I've owned a lot of custom bows, shot a lot more. Price doesn't make a bow. Slapping "custom" on it doesn't make a better bow. What are most of the best shots in the world shooting? "Production" bows. Any of them could shoot any quality bow well. The bow isn't the deciding factor.
Reminds me of a segment I saw on skeet shooting. The pros were shooting cheap, beat up old shotguns. Nothing wrong with customs, but shooting them didn't make the owners shoot with the pros.
QuoteSome folks may never experience the difference, or truly appreciate it.... others just don't care.
Thing is, there's not a real difference with a lot of them. I have a "custom" bow hanging in my shop that a buddy has near $1,000 tied up in. It broke the first time it was pulled to his 28" anchor.
The most advanced bows aren't "custom" (they are expensive). Would everyone benefit from them? Nope--most can't shoot the difference.
QuoteThe thread was about "are expensive custom bows really worth it?"
Yeah, I got that. The answer is a definate "maybe" or "depends".
Some "customs" are, for lack of a better word, junk. Some custom bowyers may put out a great product, but have proven themselves to be totally untrustworthy (remember Fedora Jr.?). Some are inconsistent. I've delt with a couple over the years.
And of course you have guys like Jim Gainey of Black Creek, Roy Hall of Navajo, Ric Anderson, Black Widow, etc. who have reputations for building a great custom bow plus unblemished business practices.
My point was/is, don't feel like you missed the boat if you can't afford to spend $1,000 on a "custom" bow. There's still plenty to be proud of, still plenty to enjoy, and you can still shoot it very accurately.
One of the best shots I've known gave out a lot of tournament spankings with an old Bear "Black Bear" recurve. Probably the ugliest bow I've ever seen. He took great pride and pleasure in winning with it.
IMO if the only reason you have to like your bow is because it's pretty and/or it cost a lot of money, you REALLY missed the boat.
That's coming from a guy who's owned literally hundreds of bows--from very cheap to very expensive--who currently owns around 20, and has learned over the years that the bows that are worth the most to me wound up costing the least money.
This is not a bash against the good custom bowyers, or anyone who enjoys a custom bow. Most of my favorites are "custom" bows--just so happened they didn't cost me a lot of money.
The OP seemed to be looking for confirmation that it was just fine to be happy and confident with the bow he has and is shooting well. For my part, I say yes it is.
Good post Chad, I agree with Kirk and with you because you really are saying the same thing. Kirk said some people folks may never appreciate a custom, afford one , and otheres just may not care. I believe that is factual. I killed my first bull elk with a Grizzly and enjoyed that experience greatly.
The thread topic of are custom bows worth it could be answered like this . to some they are, to some they are not. Built by some they are and built by others they are not. Kirk says to me and to many others they are. Amen to that.
This does not mean however that anyone is less of a bowhunter because they do not have a custom bow LOL. To me the most custom bows built are self bows built by master bowyeers. But hey I appreciate them all. In fact I was just looking at an old Pearson Predator and thinking what a really neat bow it was.
God bless you all, Steve
QuoteThe thread topic of are custom bows worth it could be answered like this . to some they are, to some they are not. Built by some they are and built by others they are not.
I agree--a definite "maybe" or "depends".
custom bows can be very economical or to the extremes...and should matter to no one what you prefer other than yourself. if you shoot a basic plain bow great and dont aspire to have anything pretty or more refined...dont worry about it.
if you are of the ilk that wants both performance and beauty....then sky is limit or at least your pocket is the limit.
When I first started...I could not fathom spending $600 on a Black Widow (yes it was a long time ago..haha). I thought I would be totally happy with my Jeffery Royal Hunter forever.
As I learned...forever is a long time...and never say never as there is much more to the allure of traditional bowhunting than a simple tool..at least for most of us.
Follow your heart...and your own desires...and dont pay attention to those around you flaunting their high dollar bows. We all started our traditional walk somewhere...and most of us end up with more than one bow after a few years....not because we are never satisfied...but because they are all so good and we want to experience the nuances of different builders in both beauty and function. Yes they all shoot an arrow but there are slight differences in grip, smoothness, speed and just that "feeling" of being THE ONE that only a traditional bowhunter can understand.
I started my traditional journey around 1988...first recurve in 1991 I think. Now with a handful of vintage Browning recurves on the wall....a couple hunting recurves...couple longbows...a couple selfbows and one in process of trying to make myself. The journey never ends....
Though for me my bought bows are coming to end...I think I want another Robertson and a Strunk then anything else I get will be selfbows I aspire to make myself. Or so is the plan...hahahaha
Brock
I have the same plan, after running through as many bows I could, I've come to appreciate what drew me to this sport in the first place, simplicity. Do I still have some fancy bows on the rack, sure enough, but when I shoot a selfbow and I get darn good accuracy, nothing makes me smile more. So now I spend more time staring at trees and wondering "Would that make a great bow ?"
Maybe it just takes us 20 or so years to get to this place?
LOL.....some go through bows like I go through underwear...others tend to drag out the process over decades. Everyone is different....as is our journey's. As long as you are satisfied...it should be of no consequence what is on my wall or anothers. Only that your wall is as you wish it to be...
if like most of us...you will sell more than you keep...hahahaha.
but as Longstick said...I find myself looking more at the strunk and mattinly sticks on my wall....and of the hickory stave I have worked down to floor tiller stage almost...and wonder why I even need the glass backed bows.
Maybe it is because i am scared every bow I make is going to explode and I need the glass backed just in case. LOL
In the end when you are sending arrows down range at a 3/D target, a stump or a Bull elk. If your having fun and your getting excited......BINGO!! Don't matter what you shoot!!
They say a poor workman blames his tools. I guess that means that if someone knows what they're doing, they can use whatever instrument is available to them.
That being said, I can play a garage sale piano and make it do its job, but I'd rather play a Steinway.
I'm not as good with a bow, but I do shoot Black Widow bows by choice. I have some cheaper bows, but they don't get shot much. I shoot the ones that please me most.
P.S. No, I'm not a concert pianist... It's just an illustration!
The fine fellow who started this thread didn't ask if the Bear Montana was a good bow. He asked if custom bows are worth high dollars and why.
His question generated a lot of excellent input. I find the objective, experienced comments helpful, whether or not they agree with my experience and values or not.
What I find the least helpful are comments that suggest price is an automatic qualifier or disqualifer of a bow's value to the archer. Sometimes those who go "production" are accused of not being serious about performance. Other times those who spend what some think is too much, are accused of being on a wild goose chase trying to buy accuracy.
One's expectations of a bow contrasted with their actual experience with it should answer whether any bow is "worth it".
I doubt that Macassar or Black & White ebony can be bought in a production bow that costs "just" a couple hundred bucks. Multiple layers of carbon and foam cores aren't cheap. A little antler or horn inlayed here and there (or a FINE Bear Compass)costs a bit extra. Heaven forbid if you want a $100-150 checkering job on the grip --that'll add up too. (Nope, I'm not suggesting checkered treatment is or isn't good for the archer's form.)
Will these extras make the bow shoot any better in average hands? Maybe not. But I don't go fetch my $175 bow when I want to hold a bow while in my lazy chair late at night while I watch and old western. (Yep,I do that and my wife has even stopped rolling her eyes!).
I know that bows are for shooting but if the bow is fine enough to inspire MY admiration, then I get even more out of it. My. 308 will kill many deer that I've had to pass with my bow. (Lots of folks would puke if they looked up single shot Merkels too.) However, I'm an archer for more than just the hunt or the kill.
I think you can shoot well with pretty much any production bow out there. For me though, I love the attention to detail, exotic woods, and workmanship that goes into a well made custom bow. I think from some, you can expect a smoother draw and in some cases more speed, but i am not a speed freak myself. I just love putting my hand around a very well made beautiful custom bow. I have owned production bows, and shot them just fine. I think most of my customs draw smoother, I know my Bruin's do. All of that said, there is not a thing wrong with production bows. You can do anything with one that you can with the other. Years ago most production bows required a little customizing, especially in the shelf area. I do not think that is much of an issue on production bows today.
One thing about factory bows, I talked a friend into giving up his wheels. He tried two Bear longbows, they looked the same and shot different. Then he tried a Hoyt longbow, it was conciderably better. On the bows that I have done myself, the difference between good enough and you ain't gonna get it, is sandpaper tillering. I would hope that a custom bow would have fine glue lines and precise tiller work, I know that is not always the case, but I would bet that it is most often the case.
I have a Lukas Novotry (Saluki) built Horn Bow in the Egyptian Design 80# @ 30. I am not the original owner but I do know that he paid $2600 for it, I paid some what less. To me it is all about this bow being a work of art. Do I shoot this bow you better believe it. Its not worth having a bow just to look at. This bow is very very fast with no hand shock. Then again I have a Bear Alaskan 1958 Model that I have taken at least 27 dear and other smaller game with it and I really have affection for this bow. I own the horn bow because I can but I own the Alaskan because my dad gave it to me as a birthday gift in 1958. Bottom line is I can hit what I shoot at with both.
Bows whether a custom bow or a production line bow are all primarily useful depending on the feel of the bow to the individual shooter. Its how the bow shoots and how it feels to you that matters.
That said, all my bows are custom bows because they feel good and do the job for me. However, not all of them are in the high end of the scale. Its all up to the shooter as to their feel and comfort with the bow.
A custom bow is only as goods as the information you give the bowyer. and buying a custom bow from some one else or off the classifieds is not a bow built for you... Grip may be too fat, too small,to high, too low for you. Poundage, draw length may not be right for you. The only way to get a grip right is to visit the bowyer and have it shaped as you hold and the feel until it is what you really want or send him a grip that is exactly what you want for him to copy it. I've heard too many times, I tried Billy Bobs bow and it wasn't for me, it just didn't feel right... Your right it wasn't for you, nor was it built for you. Sorry but that is not the bowyers fault. Yea you got it for half the prices, but it still not for you.... Don't blame the Bowyer.
Bob, That is a great post. I have heard that so many times because I build grips for the customer.; Someone buys it or trys it and says my bow won't work for them because of the grip. Mis-communication or not enough information can terribly effect the outcome of a bows grip to the customer.
God bless you all, Steve
I think Bob is correct in that there is a reason a custom has a significant cost, you can get crazy with the wood choices, grip style, additional items like pinecombs and horn pieces attached to the bow. You can make it as exotic you can afford. That I will agree that makes the custom shine over a classified buy or a non cuctomized selection. What I am not sure of is, does that necessarily make for a better performing bow or better bow in general. Let's consider older Bear bows that are not only still shooting strong but in great demand as well. They make a great argument on the ability of a non custom bow as having a valid place of respect.
Either way there isn't any fault, it simply comes down to expectation, some are happy with less, some aren't happy unless they have all. And some of us float around in the middle and will shoot just about anything and be happy.
I have had very good production bows and custom bows. As well as some dogs with both. So I agree with those who posted it depends. Some bows just fit a person right production or custom but may not fit another.
For me a truly well built personalized custom bow, built for me, by a talented and serious bowyer of my choosing is worth every penny. (thanks again Kirk)
I do not think bells and whistles to pretty a bow up help it shoot better but some prefer that, others don't, whatever floats your boat.
This same argument exists for every product ever made.
Is a BMW better than a Ford?
Is a Browning O/U better than a Mossberg?
Is a $3000 Wilson Combat better than a $400 Rock Island?
The argument will continue as long as one guy has more money than the next.
You don't know what you don't know.
What a great thread. My first trad bow was a Martin Hunter my wife gave me. I still have it and still shoot it. It wears some diamondback skins, so I "customized" it a tad. I love that bow, both for the way it shoots and sentimentally because my lovely bride gave it to me. It is worth more to me than many bows. The others on my rack are customs, most made for others, 3 made for me by Sixby. Kirk is building me a Sasquatch. I've sent him a hand tracing and about a dozen pictures of grips, my hand position on the bow, amount of cant, etc. We've corresponded through several dozen emails and 4 or 5 lengthy phone conversations...and my number isn't even up yet. He's already put a ton of time and thought into my bow...and I am confident that it will be exactly just right!
Would I be deprived if I was unable to afford custom bows? I don't think so. In fact, I'd probably have spent a lot more money hunting. Either way, I'd still be a trad hunter...and that is truly a blessing!
Any bow is only worth what you are willing to pay for it.....Just because a bow cost $1000+ doesen't make it any better than a $300 bow. They all cost to make, some more some less.
No expensive bows for me, I only have 1 Blacktail Elite VL. and one Bob Lee Ultimate shipped yesterday, and one Blacktail Snakebit will be ready around July. Its only money, and ya cant take it with ya. Live while ya can. By the way, shoot whatever makes you happy, $2 or $ 2000
A bow is a bow is a bow. Some are trailer queens some are works of art. Shoot what you shoot best, and put your time and effort in to making it an extension of yourself my production 66 kodiak will shoot with any custom bow made.
They are worth it to ME. I get the wood, grip, weight at my draw length, checkering, horn-antler overlays and the list goes on. Some shoot better than others,bot I'm getting WHAT I WANT.
the arrow is far Far FAR more important than the bow. most any decent stick bow will get the job done, even if it doesn't fit you like a glove.
what most folks look for in a bow is smoothness of draw, stable/smooth/"shockless" release, good cast and arrow speed.
bow length can easily also be a major factor, and an added aesthetic might be a take down feature for travel.
sometimes getting all of those qualities requires a chunk of money. but more than often it will not, if you know just what to look for and where to look.
Rob, perhaps we need an expensive arrow thread?!? :D
I would say that when you do happen on a bow that fits you like that glove Rob speaks of,stick to it. I am always a bit jealous of those that are content with that one bow. I was up to 30 longbows and was always shooting just one primary bow for hunting. As I needed to adjust to aging and injury, replacing my favorite bow to one from the other hand and lighter weight was not possible, I considered getting a factory bow. However, I decided what I expected from a bow and for me the only way was to get a R/D Robertson made exactly to what I had in mind. Thankfully, my guess was correct and the search for that one bow is over.
I figure I may as well jump in on this thread.
The way I see it, bows can be judged by their performance, by their fit/finish, and by their intangible value.
What I mean, is that some bows shoot well, some look amazing, some are special for reasons which have nothing to do with the bow itself (heirlooms/special back story/etc.)
Truly exceptional bows meet all three criterion.
Some folks only care about performance. (To my mind they miss out on a very large, beautiful chunk of life, but that is just my opinion.)
Not many people want a bow that looks pretty without performing, but the intangibles might make up for it(example: _____made this bow for me a year before________ so I will never get rid of it, even though my ______shoots better.)
If you care about performance, but appreciate art, a custom bow is the way to go. Humans in general are drawn to beauty AND performance. A good bowyer will work with you to make a bow that you might never want to sell.
I am lucky. I have a beautiful bow that performs at a very high level, and it survived a vicious car accident with me (my intangible). I consider myself fortunate to be in the position I am. There is no need for me to look for something better. I might find another bow that is as pretty, and shoots as well, but it will never have the same special feeling as the one in my possession right now.
I've had a slew of and shot a slew of custom bows and there has been only one custom that is so much better of bow to shoot in comparison to prduction bows I've shot.