This may be a silly question, but why do bowers not use more Cedar for lams. than they do?
My reason for this question is as follows.....
Ive got a Hill Panther with Red Cedar lams. first bow ive ever owned with Cedar, its smooth, very quick, light, and under clear glass very appealing to look at.
Why the lack of popularity, for a limb lamination that performs and looks so well?
I don't know either, Mole. It is probably my favorite.
It may be because it is hard to find clear wood without knots that would weaken the limbs. It sure makes a light fast bow.
QuoteOriginally posted by Gordon Jabben:
It may be because it is hard to find clear wood without knots that would weaken the limbs. It sure makes a light fast bow.
He said it all right there. I have my bowyer looking for some, if he finds some without a bunch of knots, he gets another order from me.
You aint kiddin guys, as far as wood lams. go, its as quick, if not quicker than any other lam. ive shot. Seems that it doesnt get the credit it deserves for making a fine bow.
I ordered a Dave Johnson Longbow about a month ago. That's all he uses. I believe Gorden is correct. It is difficult to find clear cedar without knots. Never had a cedar bow. Hope it is a good one. I like bamboo. I liked the cedar as it gives the bow a different look. There is only so much you can do with a Hill style bow.
Brazos, if you like Bamboo, i think your gonna love Cedar. If you would, post pics. when you get it, we would love to see it.
Congrats on a fine bow.
Paul- from what I've been told it is very dfficult to get enough clear runs of cedar to make laminations. There ends up being quite a bit of waste so it isnt very cost effective.
That is one of the major reasons I had Mike Ballenger of 7 Lakes Longbows build my Short Night. He happily made my limbs out of cedar and he loves working with it. I've fallen in love with cedar as a limb material. Quick, smooth, light. Everyone else can have the bamboo...that just leaves more cedar for me & my bows!
Are other cedar as good as red cedar( do they use western or eastern red cedar?) I wonder if yellow cedar, would work, it is easy to find in clear, long stock.... Same with sitka spruce...
One day I will try making a bow using these woods.
Been looking at them for a long time, and my HH Cheetah should be here next week. Few woods are as good looking as cedar; I'm looking forward to see how it shoots.
Brazos, I think you will really like your Dave Johnson bow. I think the first thing you will notice is how light it is. For some reason, his cedar bows remind me of a fine light weight flyrod. They are just a joy to handle.
*Edited to correct lams to... veneers*
Chad Holm has has some of the prettiest clear Red Cedar veneers I've ever seen. I think (but don't quote me) he told me he harvested the cedar tree himself and ground the veneers.
Here he is holding one of his Osprey longbows with clear red cedar veneers:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v211/fz4vgq/KZOO%202012/2012-01-28065421x640.jpg)
Dave Johnson's Red Cedar Laminated Hill Style bows are the very finest. Smooth, accurate, great cast, light in the hand.
Alan
Are you guys talking about the veneers for looks or the actual lams? I thought cedar wasn't strong enough to use for the lams.
Veneers I use , Lams I do not. too much resin that in heat situations could cause delamination of the bow. When I do cedar veneers I make them so thin that the glue completely penetrates the laminations.
Anyway that Is the answer for me and I suspect many other bowyers that do not care to have a bow blow up in someones hands; This is of course less likely to happen in some designs such as longbows with long working areas than in high performance limbs utilizing shorter working area of limb;
God bless you all, Steve
The lams in a Howard Hill style bow. I never thought about it but Steve is probably right, it might not be a good choice for a short bow. Don't know.
Here's one I got done today.
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f301/jillanmike/cedar_zps28db2711.jpg)
I agree that Eastern Red Cedar and Juniper with a nic emixture of hear and sapwood make beautiful veneers. I may misunderstand the function of the lams but in some discussions with some bowyers when ordering bows I thought I was informed that the veneers are so thin they have little to do with bow performance. They are primarily for appearance and it is the glass (or carbon) that get's er dun.
Of course I'm only talking about curves. I can't even spell Longbow.
Check out this video about Dave Johnson's use of Red Cedar for laminations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXl3z2DkBGU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Alan
Cedar doesn't have the stength characteristics necessary for a lot of bow designs. Use yew, it is a superior lam wood that is light and mechanically stronger.
I agree with siwash and add that old growth doug fir verticle grain is even better yet and is a super tough wood that is extremely light. Its sure hard to beat verticle grain clear rock maple though; Seriously , it is light in weight and will last forever and you can combine it with carbon and beautiful veneers to build one awsome performing and great looking bow;
I honestly do not see any real legitimate reason to use cedar as a core.
As veneers. That is a different story; It is downright beautiful and stunning with the right riser woods.
God bless you all, Steve
So if dog fir work, sitka spruce should work as good?!?!?
Old Growth, Douglas or red fir. verticle cut clear.
I don'tknow about spruce but certainly its a possibility if it is clear, strong and no pitch or heavy resins. I know Douglas fir works because I know of a bow with thousands of shots through it that is very high performance and the cores are douglas fir.
So I guess all the old bowyers that have been building bows with cedar limbs longer than many of us have been alive don't actually know how to make a bow correctly. I would also wager the required heat to make a cedar limbed bow delaminate would make any laminated bow come apart; no matter who made it.
Everybody has their own preferences. Longbow, recurve, heavy, light, long, short.
I'm with you emt. I bought a 75# Johnson cedar bow when I was young and pretty much indestructable. I hate to guess how many thousands of arrows went through that bow. I shot my only limit of rabbits with that bow. It's alive and well but I sure can't pull that weight anymore.
QuoteOriginally posted by Gordon Jabben:
I'm with you emt. I bought a 75# Johnson cedar bow when I was young and pretty much indestructable. I hate to guess how many thousands of arrows went through that bow. .
x 2 from my point of view. My Dave Johnson is rock solid! Indestructible.
But, if you watched the video link I posted above.....Dave does cull through a lot of Red Cedar to find the lams he likes.
Alan
Always fun to hear a guy tell an ~80 yr old master of his craft that his materials are off. He's been building bows for a couple of years from what I hear...
Some folks cannot read. If you go back and read the posts instead of jumping to conclusions I said that they work in longbows where there are less stress than in high performance bows with short working limbs. You guys crack me up sometimes; Do you walk around with chips on your shoulders looking for a problem? In this case there is not one; No one is running down an 80 year old master bowyer.
By the way I am 66 and I have built a couple of bows myself.
this thread went from a discussion of bow laminations of cedar to me being accused of running down Dave Johnson whom I greatly admire. Its rediculous that we cannot have a decent discussion without this kind of umbrage.
God bless you all, Steve