I was out shooting in the back yard today, when suddenly on release, the limbs of my ILF bow are both flying down-range after my arrow.
The bow string had snapped right at the transition from the end of the loop taper to "main" part of the string. The sudden release of limb tension flung the tips forward and the inertia ripped the ILF "pins" right out of both limbs. The "pins" were still sitting in the ILF pockets on the riser.
The limbs look ok though. The holes where the ILF "pins" were mounted are still clean, with no crack or ripping as far as I can tell. It looks like the "active" part of the limbs survived as well - I don't see any cracks or other damage.
So I'm doing a debrief to see what I could've done to provoke and/or prevent this:
- the bow is in my sig line: Morrison carbon and foam recurve limbs - "D"/Long length on 17" wood riser. Limbs are 47# at 28" of draw. My draw length is 27" which gives me 45# draw weight. I shoot carbon arrows with weight ranging from 411 to ~500 grains. So no arrows lighter than 9.1 gpp.
- I got the bow about 1 year ago. I replaced the original bow string when the center serving started to separate - I would guess about 8 months ago. I bought both strings from Bob when I bought the bow. I believe those strings are 8-strand Flemish twist fast flight. I wax the bow string with Scorpion Venom Wax when I start to see dry spots or fibers peeking out - probably 3 times since I put the string on the bow. I store the bow lying flat on a padded shelf, so no hanging it from the string.
- I shoot about 5 times a week, probably at least 30 arrows per session. Since I shoot so often I never unstring the bow, so other than installing string silencers and adjusting brace height, the bow has been strung for a ~8 months with this string.
I'm thinking this was just a fluke with an unfortunate outcome. But it could've been worse I guess. I'll be sending the bow back to Bob to have him take a look and see if he can salvage the limbs. I'm hoping it's just a question of re-installing the ILF "pins" and checking that none of the other hardware is bent or otherwise damaged.
Now what do you all think - did I bugger something up that then caused this? Thoughts?
... and the real question - what do I shoot until I get this resolved? That Whip in the Classifieds is looking really tempting if a little too heavy for me ;)
Thanks,
Henrik
Not good. Hope it works out. I have had it happen twice. Once on a one piece recurve and no problem with the bow. String broke just like yours. I kind of suspect maybe a dry fire because of what the arrow did. Not sure. The second time was on a friends longbow. That time I still had part of the string in my hand. No problem with that bow. I can see where an ILF would trend to shed parts.
Not sure what would cause it. where the string broke is common when you talk to others that have had strings break.
when you leave it strung, it makes it difficult to properly wax the loops. Maybe that could have contributed.
I would say look for a burr on the string groove that could wear the string but that doesn't seem like the case since you have shot this for 8 months. When you send it back, and the limbs are OK, I am sure bob will check that out.
Best of Luck, hope the limbs and riser are OK.
I am sorry this happened, but glad no one was hurt. I also hope your limbs are okay. I had a string break at full draw and destroy a beloved longbow. It was a pretty new string, but it failed at the lower loop. It happens, just get up and keep shooting!
Sorry to hear this happened. It happened to me once on a wheelie about 17 years ago. I have never had it happen on one of my trad bows.
Hope the bow will be okay and glad you were not injured.
Henrik -
Where did the string break and did you find yourself having to adjust your brace height often?
Ron
Sorry about your bow; I had a string break and bow explode at a 3D shooting from a ladder, at first had no idea what happened-stuff flying everywhere and my hands were empty!
One of my friends offered me a spare bow, but I was no longer in the mood. Clean shorts would have been welcome though.
Thanks guys, I appreciate it.
Yeah, all in all if it had to happen, this was probably one of the better ways. Judging from the arrow flight, the string broke after most of the energy had been transferred to the arrow- it was a good shot and the arrow was in the target pretty much where I aimed. So only the energy stored in the strung bow - and not the full draw - was what "flung" the limbs off.
Also, because of how the ILF limbs mount, the pull on the ILF "pins" must have been an almost straight pull, which would explain why the pin holes in the limbs are still "clean" after the "pins" getting ripped out.
I was wondering why the string didn't hit me somewhere, but I guess I just got lucky.
Ron: the string broke right at the transition where the taper of the bottom loop ends and the "regular" string begins.
I think I understand what you're hinting at with the brace height - if something was stretching or slipping I would be adjusting more frequently. But no, the brace height has been rock solid for at least a month or more, and I check almost every time I shoot (yes, I really am that "particular" ;) )
When I first installed the string, I was adjusting brace height almost daily, but 1) the string was new and settling in and 2) I had installed cat whiskers by putting the whisker bundle between strands of the string. And as the whiskers compressed, and then started to break and fall out whisker by whisker, the brace height would change.
But like I said. No brace height changes in a while.
Bjorn: that had to be a scary experience. And up on a ladder at that. Yikes.
Wow, you got me rushing to inspect my strings right now...
I was using the Scorpion Wax on my FF Flemish string and the brace height had to be adjusted very often....more than I had ever seen. I also had it twisted so much due to brace height adjustments that I couldn't see any twists on the upper part of the string.
I put a new string on and went back to regular bees wax and this string seems to be holding well after a few 100 shots. I still think the Scorpion Wax is a very good wax and not even sure this was causing the problem that I decribed.
Ron
QuoteOriginally posted by FarmerMarley:
Wow, you got me rushing to inspect my strings right now...
Well, if the thread helps someone else avoid this mess, then at least something good came of it :)
Ron, I started using Scorpion Venom after seeing a Tradgang Sponsor string maker recommend it (I don't recall who though). I'm using the waxy version, not the fluid. I've heard of many compound shooters (i.e. much higher tension) using it, so I'd be surprised if the wax affected the string.
QuoteOriginally posted by FarmerMarley:
Wow, you got me rushing to inspect my strings right now...
DITTO
Quote8 months ago.
8-strand Flemish twist fast flight.
First, I'd find out exactly what material was used in the strings. Second, I'd contact the manufacturer of these materials--either BCY or Brownell in the U.S.
I can about guarantee they will tell you that's too few strands.
Even though modern materials are very strong and durable, they can only withstand so much.
The fibers get hammered with every shot, and can break down. My best guess is this is what happened to you.
If you are going to shoot a low strand count string, I'd replace it on a regular basis.
If you find out more about what caused the failure, hope you post about it. I'd like to know if my guess is right, or if there's something totally different to watch for.
LBR:
I may not have explained well: I didn't switch to a thin string to gain a few fps. I've only used strings that I bought from Bob Morrison specifically for this bow. I can't imagine he'd spec and sell strings that he wouldn't consider appropriate for his bows.
So are you saying that thinner strings or strings in general may have an "expiration" date, either in terms of "time on the bow" or "arrows fired", even if the string doesn't show any wear as such? I guess it would make sense, but I haven't seen anything to that effect anywhere.
Ok I'll put my feabile two cents in on this.
Qutoe" the string broke right at the transition where the taper of the bottom loop ends and the "regular" string begins."
...When I first installed the string, I was adjusting brace height almost daily"
So heres my theory. The material wasn't pre stretched and you had to constantly twist it up to make brace height or in fact make it the right length. The twists stop at beginning of the taper because they can't twist past there. See my point or theory of why where the stress point is on that string.
I make my own strings so that when they are stretched I only have ONLY a couple twists to make them all work together. If you buy a string and have to twist it up your lossing preformance and possibly making it weaker.
Quote "Judging from the arrow flight, the string broke after most of the energy had been transferred to the arrow- it was a good shot and the arrow was in the target pretty much where I aimed. So only the energy stored in the strung bow - and not the full draw"
I've read numerous times and still find it hard to believe but alot of intellegent folks say the string is at it's most stress level at brace height! :confused: Makes sense then thats when it would break during a shot.
Finally I never ever wax my strings. Like I said I make my own but even boughten strings are really cheap. If they even look wore I replace, I don't believe "waxing" down fuss helps the string to be stronger. And I come from along line of folks that think wax, grease etc exposed to dust or grit just picks it up and then effectively becomes like sandpaper.
Now all my thoughts are my humble opinion only your mileage may vary!
I agree with LBR. 8 strands is just a very thin string. It's bound to give out quicker than 10 or 12 or 14. If there's a weak spot anywhere for any reason, there's just not much in reserve to back it up. Folks haven't been using ultra skinny strings for very long. Most less than a few years. I think we'll hear of more of this happening if it becomes more popular. Glad you weren't hurt.
Thanks for the feed-back guys.
LC - I don't know about the string not being pre-stretched. Again, Morrison is well known for the quality of his bows, and I can't imagine he'd work with a string maker, who would leave out such an important step.
I do see your point about the stress of over-twisting the string would focus at the loop tapers.
As for waxing, my understanding is that the wax helps lube the strands and fibers in the string, to keep down wear within the string. Of course if that wax is filled with abrasive dust it's a different story. But it seems that newer types of wax is a lot less "sticky" than some of the older stuff I've used, and as such would attract and hold less dirt. But then I'm no expert by any stretch.
Orion: my previous archery experience is from ~25 years ago, where thick Dacron strings were the norm. So I just go by what the experts advice. I don't think though that Morrison is the only bowyer using thin strings. I've also seen a string maker offering 6 strand strings for bows up to 53# draw weight. Maybe the material is different from what my string was made of.
I'll see what I can find out and report back if anything interesting pops up.
Why push the envelope? Shoot more strands in a bowstring.
QuoteI may not have explained well: I didn't switch to a thin string to gain a few fps. I've only used strings that I bought from Bob Morrison specifically for this bow. I can't imagine he'd spec and sell strings that he wouldn't consider appropriate for his bows.
No idea what testing Bob has done with string durability. I do keep in close contact with BCY though. Don't take my word for it--ask the manufacturer what they think.
QuoteSo are you saying that thinner strings or strings in general may have an "expiration" date, either in terms of "time on the bow" or "arrows fired", even if the string doesn't show any wear as such? I guess it would make sense, but I haven't seen anything to that effect anywhere.
That might be a way to look at it. I don't push the envelope with my personal strings. I don't use a minimal strand count, and if it's a bow I'm shooting much I'll replace the string every 6 months or so. You can break down the fibers by using too much tension to pre-stretch. The reason strings fuzz up is do to the strands breaking down. It's normal wear and tear. Less strands, more stress on each strand, more/faster wear and tear. At least that's my thoughts--I could be wrong.
Fewer strands will also stretch/creep more, and have less elasticity, which may also affect wear.
Again, I have no idea what kind of tests Bob does to decide on a string. I do know I have seen some pretty wild things from other bowyers concerning strings...for example:
A string (the one sent with a bow) cause the limbs on a longbow to twist.
A bowyer who voided the warranty on his bows if you used a flemish string, or a dacron string.
A bowyer who said in his warranty that "flemish strings are less accurate, and can be dangerous".
A bowyer that recommended against one type "FF" material because it didn't have enough stretch...but suggested another material that has even less stretch.
I've seen some of the nicest looking, better shooting bows I've had my hands on with some of the most awful looking strings ever on them.
The string seems to be a part of the equation that is often overlooked, taken for granted, etc.
Again, I suggest finding out exactly what the material is, then contact the manufacturer for more insight.
Chad
A few years back, there was quite a discussion on strings, as far as number of strands, material types, breaking strength etc. We were all quite surprised when some of us did our own testing as far as actual breaking strength ( O L Adcock ) was also involved in this. We all pretty much found that the single strand of D 97 string broke at between 30 to 35 pounds (if I remember correctly). I think the advertised breaking poundage was 50 or 55 pounds. I did several tests on different strands of different colors and they all were pretty close to being the same. So as far as the number of strands in a string, I think it's better to be safe than sorry. Just my 2 cents....Lloyd
QuoteOriginally posted by LBR:
QuoteI don't push the envelope with my personal strings. I don't use a minimal strand count, and if it's a bow I'm shooting much I'll replace the string every 6 months or so. You can break down the fibers by using too much tension to pre-stretch. The reason strings fuzz up is do to the strands breaking down. It's normal wear and tear. Less strands, more stress on each strand, more/faster wear and tear[/b]
Thanks Chad, that's a very valid point and good advice. I will no doubt make regular string change a "maintenance" item for my bow.
I'll try to look into strings/string material etc. some more, just for my own education. But I appreciate you taking the time to chime in.
CI: that's interesting, and a bit odd, that the actual breaking strength of these strands are that much lower than advertised. I guess this is not "climbing rope" kinda important, but I've always seen rope breaking strength listed at very "safe" levels. Good to keep in mind when choosing string and string material.
One a very happy note: I spoke to Bob about my bow. He builds his ILF bows with the limb "pin" or "dovetail" press-fit into the limbs for exactly this reason. If something - like my string - "goes", then the "dovetails" will pull out and minimize damage to limbs and other parts of the bow. If the "dovetails" were to be bolted in place, the limbs might very well have ripped the aluminum pocket out of the riser, causing a lot of expensive damage.
So all I need to do is press the "dovetails" back in the limbs, string it up and go shooting. Note: I have already spent time checking out all the parts for nicks/dings/cracks etc. etc. and everything is straight and undamaged.
Very good news.
Glad to hear sounds like your bow survived this.
Did Bob say what kinda of string material he was supplying with his bows and if it was prestretched or was it normal for several weeks to keep twisting it up to make it the right length?
Glad to hear things are getting fixed.
One thing I would ask since it hasn't been mentioned that I have seen,
What do you hang your bow on?? Is there any burrs or rough spots that could affect the string?
I was just thinking, I know serious problem. Every one seems to think 8 strands is too few,everyone seems to think 10 strands are OK. Wonder if two strands would have made a difference? JMHO a few more hundred shots based on the info gave.
I got to be honest here. I've been a skinny string man for years BEFORE it was popular. I used skinny strings with B50 with zero problems!Now we are not talking 8 strand B50 but WELL WELL below what was acceptable and I shoot ALOT.
Same results with HP (high prefromance) skinny strings but with every imaginable improvement one could ever want, more durable,faster, quieter, less hand shock vibration,smoother, etc. I first tried one HP string material that I thought was junk, lots of folks love it though so wont mention brand. I use that junk for padding my loops now. My next string was UC. I love this stuff. It took me SEVERAL tries to come up with a length, different from B50, that would end up giving me a string the right length with MINUMAL twists for MY desired brace height or length. Theres my problem with just "ordering" a string for my bow. Imagine the number of folks shooting the same bow using different shooting styles,arrows, fletching, string silencers, different brace heights, etc all ordering the same string but using different number of twists to meet their tuning needs!
I've since learned there is equal or better materials to UC. That could be but with the preformance I've expierenced coupled with the durablity of it, factor in the amount of spool I have left I doubt I'll be trying something different for a good long time or at the very least several thousand feet. ;)
BUT when I start seeing a fair amount of FUZZ I don't wax it and think all is well. In fact I never wax a string even back in the B50 ages. I spin me a new endless loop string and be done with it! I don't run my tires too long, I change my furnace filters regularly,change the oil in vehicles, etc etc! lol You mileage may vary.
I agree with Chad 8 strands is too few. The problem with skinny strings in my opinion is that even when brand new and each strand is in perfect condition you are only a few #100 above your bows acceptable 10:1 tensile strength to draw weight ratio. Now once those strings start to wear or look a little fuzzy which is fine as long as it's not too much on a 12 stand (or more) string that skinny string is loosing tensile strength fast. And what if the condition comes to pass that a strand or two gets cut while out hunting and you don't have your back up string with you.
Just food for thought.
LC: Bob and I got talking and I forgot to ask him about the string specifics. I have another set of limbs on order, so I'll ask next time we talk.
About whether an additional 2 strands would've made a difference; 2 more strands would increase the breaking strength by 25%. If additional strands also make a string stretch less, then maybe the combination of stronger and less stretch would equal less wear and/or less fiber breakage.
interesting that you're a "skinny string man" yourself. Of course since you make your own strings swapping for a new one and tweaking strings to match exactly what you need is a bit easier for you ;)
Cyclic-Rivers: I did think about the possible issue of hanging a bow. But I don't hang my bow though: I lay it flat on it's side on a shelf that I've padded with a folded bath towel.
I put the dovetails back in the limbs, put the bow together and strung it tonight. Will check everything out again tomorrow and take it for a "test spin".
Had a string blow at full draw - hurt like hell and broke arrow on my arm and bow, but bow survived. Glad everything sounds okay.
Think LC is on to something - I was shooting an 8 strand on a 45# bow and it kept stretching - I probably over-twisted and put too much pressure on taper.
I shoot a 10 UltraCam now - but its only 25% more than 8, but watch string twist and condition more closely.
James: good point about having a bit of "extra" string capacity in case something goes sideways in the field. Although I'd probably be hesitant to shoot a bow if the string had been nicked no matter the strand count ;) . I have a string that I've shot for a few weeks for it to settle, with nock points and silencers installed, that I carry with me when I shoot away from home.
So when it was all done your string was in two pieces? Which would mean all 8 strands had to break cleanly, relatively speaking?
QuoteOriginally posted by Kelly:
So when it was all done your string was in two pieces? Which would mean all 8 strands had to break cleanly, relatively speaking?
Yes, it was a surprisingly clean break. Less than 1/2" of "fuzzy" end on the string side, and almost none on the loop side of the break.
I asked Bob about the strings, and what I had was an 8-strand D-10 string, pre-stretched by the string maker.
All I can think is that extended use as far as many arrows shot over a good amount of time with a string that dimensionally pushes the envelope - possibly combined with a slight weak spot - caused the string break.
Glad things seem OK with the bow. I personally am not a fan of skinny strings or pushing the envelope--just not my nature to be an envelope pusher :) . I have tried one by a well known skinny string maker (briefly) and don't feel the risk is worth the benefit. But that's just me I guess. Heck, I still use dacron on several of my bows and like it just fine. I sort of figure that's what this "traditional archery" thing is all about--doing it the way we used to (I've been at it for about 50 years give or take a few while I was in college and beginning my career).
Thanks David - yes it is a relief that the bow is ok. Shot a bunch yesterday, and it shoots smooth as ever.
I think, as with anything, you can "push" a bit as long as you realize the limitations and considerations. In my case I didn't :) Now I know to routinely replace the string on top of the "day-to-day" inspections and maintenance if I decide to stick with a skinny string.
Well IMHO if it was prestretched, NOT over stretched to the point of failure, and you had to keep "twisting" it up then something isn't right. Either D10 is not a acceptable string material or something is amuck in the wood pile. Just my opinion. Think about it, myself and several others are using skinny strings without failures and have done so for years. IF the string is made the right length so that when it settles in there is no more stretch, creep what ever you want to call it then there should not be a problem. I do concede if I was a string maker I'd probably make them 30 strand to compenstate for the "real" world to CMA. IF skinny strings didn't work and worth the benefits why do you think so many bowyers use them? Yes I acknowledge BW says no benefit so it has to be true! We all know BW is the bible for other bowyers! lol So are you saying Bob and alot of the other bowyers who ship bows with skinny strings haven't done their own testing? Food for thought.
LC, something to consider. I mentioned this before--not sure where (can't remember), but I think it's worth mentioning again.
There were lots of folks very upset when I voiced concerns about B-75 and PENN 66--I was refered to as pretty much everything but smart and honest (on a different site, a long time ago--before TG came into existence).
They all said the same thing--they got much better performance, never had a minutes trouble from it, 'ol-so-and-so (certain bowyers and certain string makers) recommends them, etc. I have no reason to doubt them, but that didn't change the fact that several bows were damaged/destroyed with their strings blew up without warning...not to mention the underwear that were damaged/destroyed even if the bow survived. :scared:
Just because some folks had great results, it didn't change the fact that others didn't. Why the varied results? Your guess is as good as mine. My guess is the materials were pushing the envelope. Both materials were taken off the market after a short time.
QuoteIF skinny strings didn't work and worth the benefits why do you think so many bowyers use them?
Because it's a selling point, and they have most likely had customers request them. Red paint won't make a sportscar go faster, but it's a popular color so dealers offer it. Or,maybe they have done tests, and they have found benefits with their designs?
QuoteSo are you saying Bob and alot of the other bowyers who ship bows with skinny strings haven't done their own testing?
Dare I say it? I can't speak for Bob in particular, but I know at one point--several years ago--he was using a material that was, IMO, junk. It was promoted by a string maker who was popular at the time (that string maker has been out of the string business for many years). The material has been off the market for years, because...well, it was junk--it was made a particular way and there's not been anything similar since, at least to my knowledge. But, at the time, it was "new and improved", and there was a call for it.
I've seen warranties where, if you used a flemish string, OR a dacron string, the warranty was void.
I've seen where a bowyer claimed a flemish string was "less accurate, and could be dangerous".
I've seen a bowyer blame a flemish string for the limb on a brand new longbow twisting.
I've seen a bowyer reccomend against one type of FF material because it didn't have enough stretch, then recommend a different FF type material that had even LESS stretch (but felt softer in your hand).
All of these are well known, accomplished bowyers, and some are still in business.
BW isn't the only one who has done controlled tests and found little to no benefit. Others have the opinion that the risks outweigh the benefits. And of course some feel the benefits are worth the risks.
FWIW, in my own very non-technical "tests", I found no real benefits. Same shafts bare-shafted fine, no noise difference that I could tell as long as I did my part with tuning. But that's just me--YMMV. If I'd found any notable benefits, it would only be in my best interests to promote them.
D10 is an acceptable bowstring material--when used properly. Actually it's no longer marketed as Dynaflight '10--it's FORCE 10 crossbow string material, and is still popular in that market. Realistically, it's very close to Dynaflight '97 as far as breaking strength, creep, stretch, and durability. It's a little stronger--a slightly higher grade of Dyneema (SK78 vs. SK75). Dynaflight '97 is still a great bowstring material...when used properly.
Anyhow...if you like low strand count strings, by all means use them. Some of us just haven't seen the same benefits, or it just doesn't matter. I still shoot selfbows on occassion, so obviously a few extra fps isn't a big deal to me. Haven't found a bow I couldn't get hunting quiet with silencers and tuning, so nothing to gain there either--for me.
Not meant to be a slam on low strand count strings, anyone who makes them (I do by request--just don't use them), or anyone who uses them.
Finally, there is, IMO, a material on the market that is a compromise. 8190 is a very small strand, so you can get a "skinny" string without pushing the envelope with a very low strand count. 12-16 strands is still a tiny string, but still offers you a little lee-way.
Chad
LBR all good points. I just think this whole skinny string thing isn't just black and white like alot of other things in life. It's kinda like the "Ban ASSUALT weapons" thing going on now adays! There is no simple answer but the human response is blaming one thing, either scary black guns, assault weapsons or skinny strings isn't the anwwer! Makes sense? There's just too many folks using and enjoying the benefits of "skinny" strings to say it's all bogus. Someday we will all look back and see the in between truth. All I just want to state is I USE SKINNY STRINGS MADE FROM ULTRA CAM, I SHOOT ALOT AND NOT HAD A SINGLE FAILURE! But I'm sure there are better materials than UC out there.But I custom make my strings so in the end there is MINUMAL twist for my stings.
Is my own testing with my own homemade bows using skinny strings using choronos all bogus? Who knows, I'm just saying that the newer string materials are stronger and making them with LESS strands works. IF you use sub standard string materials and have to twist them up constantly to keep it the right length you have lost the benefit of the new string PLUS you have weakened it! That's all I'm saying. Your mileage may vary?
I agree--very little in this sport is set in stone, and whether we admit it or not, we have a tendency to confuse "opinion" with "fact".
Some shoot a longbow better. Some shoot a recurve better. Wood riser, or metal? 1-piece, 2-piece, 3-piece? Wood, carbon, or aluminum? 3-fletch or 4-fletch? Sheild or parabolic? Chopper or burner? Etc. etc. etc.
Which one is the right one? Easy--the one you like best. :thumbsup:
agree--very little in this sport is set in stone, and whether we admit it or not, we have a tendency to confuse "opinion" with "fact".
Some shoot a longbow better. Some shoot a recurve better. Wood riser, or metal? 1-piece, 2-piece, 3-piece? Wood, carbon, or aluminum? 3-fletch or 4-fletch? Sheild or parabolic? Chopper or burner? Etc. etc. etc.
Which one is the right one? Easy--the one you like best.
X 100!
I'd also like to add in agreement with LBR there is alot of differences with HP (high preformance) strings aka Fast Flight string materials and that adds to the confusion and thus sadly the end results. Look at the market in the last few years with all the different kinds of materials hitting the market for string material? Who wouldn't be confused? Back in the day there was ONLY one option for string material B50 or maybe linen or sinew.If the 18 strand did't fit just TWIST it up! But now in the modern world all you can do is, like always buyer beware.
For the record I was using 10 strand B50 endless on 50lb plus bows with just enough serving on end loops to not touch the limb. Just enough center serving to cover my tab area. Just enough silencer material to take out the twang. The difference in preformance in speed cast etc was awesome and NEVER HAD A SINGLE FAILURE. The amount of weight of the string and silencer materials have a HUGE impact on preformance,arrow tuning,etc. Coupled with nock fit you can add alot of preformance to a bow you never knew existed. When I ran out of B50 I thought what the heck I'll try this new Schmit string!lol Like I said earlier the first HP string I bought SUCKED! However the next string material I bought UC proved that all the past benefits I saw with skinny B50 was amplified with the UC ten fold. I've never looked back.
All I'm saying is skinny strings have a place in the modern tradtional world and only time will tell where that place is. Just don't make your decision on bad intel or worse yet wives tales!
For the record I DON'T RECOMMEND anyone shooting B50 using less than standard string count. I make my own bows and strings (don't sell to anyone) and thus the warranty and responsiblity lies just with me.
I can't add much to the conversation at this point, but I appreciate all the information you all put out there.