Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: X2 on August 21, 2007, 05:04:00 PM
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It seems that on all the sites everyone is rediscovering the metal riser, and toting it as the best thing since sliced bread. There were quite a few metal risers in the 70’s, but they seemed to go away for awhile. (That is for hunting bows anyway).
Here is my take on it (for what it is worth). I have shot just about every type out there, wood or metal. I say just about because I have shot a lot but not all. I had always shot wood risered bows, up until about 4 years ago. I heard how great the metal riser bows were, and wanted to give them a try. I started with a warf, went to a quinn then to Olympic risers, and so on and so on. I have owned the supposed best out there. Maybe it is just because I am used to the wood riser bows, but I found the metal riser bows are not my cup of tea. To me they are heavy, loud, cold, and ugly. I shoot no better with them than I do my wood bow. The only plus I found for them is adjustability. Too me the disadvantages outweighed the advantages. I love the way an exotic risered longbow or recurve looks. It is a one of a kind to me. So what is so great about metal risers? Can your really tell that much of a difference? I for one can not, and will stick with my custom made bows.
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It is funny how subjectional archery is. I have seen 2 different people shoot the same bow with the same arrow, and one thought is was great, and the other thought it was terrible. It just makes me wonder how good a bow really is when someone says it is the greatest thing ever. I have now learned that just because someone else like a particular bow that does not mean I will like it. I know we are all different, but sometimes I wander if the other guy has shot enough bows to know what is good and what is not.
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I owned a Warf....and just as you said it wasn't my cup of tea. But it was very smooth, fast, very stable, and extremely shootable. And yet it wasn't for me.
So I understand the guys who like them and I have no problem with the guys that like them. I think it's good for people to get excited about a certain bow or their newly recieved bow. It makes the world go around.
Heck what about those weirdos that shoot self bows?? lol :)
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For me, my Titan by Lancaster is a great bow. I have it setup off the shelf and find it to be very easy to point and shoot, very quiet, light in the hand and maybe one of the smoothest pulling bows I have ever owned (I've owned my share...maybe several peoples share). I have several different makes of limbs and the R&D that went into them, coupled with the way the riser is setup likely aids in how the bow feels.
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The biggest advantages to the various metal risered bows is most of them are drilled and tapped for plungers/arrow rests and quivers. I've been there, done that and now I'm back to stick bows and enjoy them as much as ever! To me, stick bows have much more personality.
Bill
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I love my 3piece swan. Shoots great and the grip fits my hand perfectly. It probably doesn't make me as good a shooter as I could be, but I enjoy shooting all my bows from my owl bow to my swan.
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I'm like sar. I have a metal risered Swan and ACS_CX, but I also have Morrison, Horne, Shrew and Bear bows to shoot. I love them all. Got one you want to trade? :biglaugh:
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We all have our opinions, and I have no problem with that. I prefer an all wood (maybe with fiberglass or carbon laminates) bow and wood arrows. Whenever I hunt it's with a 2 blade steel or stone arrowhead.
I won't judge anyone else, but it just seems to me that any advanced technology takes our sport closer to what I like to think of as the "junk" side. I want my equipment to be as free of "gadgets" as possible.
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My metal risered bows are shot off the shelf and have no sites, stabilizers or any gadgets. I have nothing against anyone who chooses to use them though. So long as you hunt and shoot, you can't be all bad. lol
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more mass in riser, and last forever. :)
Who care if a guy shoots off the riser, or off a rest? who care what gadgets they use, or if they hunt. as long as they are into archery they are good in my book. :thumbsup:
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You know, back in my archery infancy I, like most of you, shot a compound. Mine was a bottom of the bucket PSE, it had a plastic handle. My buddies had a wooden grip. I loved the feel of the wood.... it was warmer, more alive, and more beautiful. So I tinkered and made my own handle from some local walnut. But in the meantime, I had stumbled upon an issue of Traditional Bowhunter. And just about like that I was converted. Took a while, though, to make the full switch. For me, the metal handled risers are impersonal, cold and most often, ugly. I hold nothing against those who shoot them, it's just for me the beauty and romance of an all wood, or mostly all wood bow, trounces anything a metal risered bow can offer.
Mike
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An underlying theme that I have seen in the last several years since the WARF and DAS bows hit the market is that it seems to seperate the guys who are serious about the level of their accuracy and equipment perormance from those that have other prorities. Therefore, bow performance is a high priority for one group and they jump at the chance to handle/own a bow that shoots at another level. I am one of those guys. Plus, the real difference in the shooting characteristics, for me, over the metal risered bows I have owned is the incorporation of ILF limbs...the better the limbs the better the performance (assuming correct matching of equipment and reasonably good shooting form). Some of us like to hit dead center, some of us are happy to cut the line. It is also the nature of some to avoid change and some of us like the adventure of trying something new. Some of us liket to stay at the comfort level we are at. If Howard Hill, Fred Bear, Ben Pearson and others had not been adventurous and innovators many of the changes they brought to the sport and are considered today to be "traditional" ( but at their time were considered to be progessive...and that would include arrows made of materials other than wood) would not be ours to enjoy. Some of the claims made against metal risers are just not true....too heavy, not really when you look at some of the BW's. Too expensive....not any more costly than a high end Widow, Morrison, Robertson or Blacktail. Cold in the hand...not now that you can use interchangeable wood grips (a really pleasant surprise to me).
It is true that a VW Beetle and a Ferrari will get you from "here" to "there". But the experience in one is way different than the experience in the other. What I do not understand is the motive for someone, X2 in this case, to go from site to site (this is #4 for me), raise a question about an issue that they have already made up their own mind about. It is not like they are asking because they are curious, or may be in the market for a new product. Mr. Hust, what is it you wish to accomplish with your query?
However, my greatest hope in all the discussions about metal risers and ILF limbs is that more people will get more and more concerned about becoming better shots and more sucessful hunters. I think Ishi was right based upon what he knew at the time...that any old stick will make a bow but it takes a good stick to make an arrow. Bows, even trad bows, are changing and evolving and the more I shoot the more respect I have for those who seek to improve upon the idea that all it takes is a pretty stick to make an arrow fly true. Not all sticks are created equal and not every one is going to like the same stick. But, rhetorical questions and trolling for responses is getting old for me. However, I think it is important for those of us who have put in the time to try to keep the record straight...so I will probably keep on responding and attempt to put out brush fires as there are some that read these threads that have genuine questions and even I sometimes learn something as I sift thru some of the never ending quibbling that seems to be in vogue in traditioal circles at the moment.
I would also add that in reply to 2fletch that you cannot find a single item on a compound bow, except for the wheels and cables, that does not have its roots in what we now call traditional archery...not a single thing. In fact, the very first compounds had wood risers. One of the saddest things I have observed in my 55 years of archery is the quibbling and divisions caused by pointless questions about what traditional is or isn't. When I hear the word traditional it does not define anything for me. Rather it tells me what an archer is not shooting....he is not shooting a compound.
IF my post here raises any hairs on the necks of the moderators here please feel free to edit or delete my post. Mr. Hust has been on numerous other sites and the threads in regards to his posts have gone nowhere and seem to perpetuate divisions and ill will among some of us. In other words, bad feelings and more quibbling that get all of us nowhere. His questions have been addressed over and over again but apparantly not to his satisfaction so now he comes here and does the same thing.
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Bill, Good post. :) you lead and I will follow anytime. ;)
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:clapper: :clapper: :clapper:
Well said Bill!
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Well said, Bill C....Dave
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Hey Bill... :thumbsup:
I noticed after I posted it showed up cut/paste on 4+ other boards. It is very interesting how the term metal riser evokes such silly behavior and retorts...your second to last paragraph is especially important...the "traditional" crowd would do well to read this over and over.
I may use it as my sig...
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I admit I like all-wood bows. That being said,I went to WV Trad./Prim Expo last March and tried two DAS bows. One was setup for an elevated rest, the other shot of the shelf. The latter of the two was my favorite.It was a 50 lbs. @ 28". Stealing Bill's comparison above, I was driving a "Ferrari". To me it was the best shooting bow at the "show"! If you run into me at a shoot or hunting camp with a DAS and you notice my eyebrows are raised, it's due to covetousness not disdain!
Bill,I agree with you!
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Nicely worded Bill....there always seems to be a certain amount of folks out there that are more interested in stirring the pot and watching it boil, rather than cooking up something actually edible in the end....
Of course some guys refer to it as stirring something else all together....
I was especially intrigued with your comments about building good quality arrows to match a bow....THAT is tough to do...Even with a 30 year back ground as a wood working craftsman, i find this arrow building from scratch very challenging....I'd love to swap some philosophy with you some time...please feel free to pm me Bro....Kirk
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The best shooting bows I've owned in over 30 years of shooting "trad" have been a pair of Brackenbury's, one's 64" and the other 66". I now own a 62" metal handled recurve that I shoot exactly the way I shot my Brackenbury's and by some peoples standards non - traditionally. I'm ok with that. What I do pleases me. I think very highly of Brackenbury's and they'll probably always be my favorites. But the truth is, I shoot this 62" metal handled recurve better than anything I owned before. I like that.
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Well you don't have to spend a ton of money because the Quinn stallion I currently shoot costs less than 300 bucks and shoots as good or better than any of the high end bows I've shot which includes black widow,checkmate and a shrew to name a few.I like the small grip and the extra mass makes it rock solid.It's also the smoothest pulling bow I've shot and it's quiet,even shot 3 under with a standard tiller.
CB
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Hey Bill, "Perfect" Thanks.....
Dude from the Desert.........
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It's not what you shoot, its that you shoot and enjoy doing it.
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You know, I have a Shrew, Morrison, Swan Impala(metal riser), Ah&H ACS CX(metal riser), 58 Bear, and Huntrdfk Made self-bow (thanks David will post a thread on that later today)all sitting in the same bow rack and I haven't once heard any of them complain about being together. One of the reasons I like bows so much, they always get along and do what's asked of them so long as I do my part. Each of them is a good shooter and FUN, they're just different and bring different things to the table. Sort of like a group of friends can be different but so much FUN when together.
Shoot what you like, if doesn't have wheels or pulleys then odds are it's traditional enough for me.
Hunting season can't get here fast enough for me.
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Actually todays metal risers are better in all respects when compared to any wood riser. Other than looks and that is purely opinion everything is better with a metal riser that can be argued.
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Makes no difference to me if you want to....
In a comparison, I own 4 black-powder guns. A modern inline, a side lock percussion and two flintlocks. One of the rock locks is composite stock, nickle steel, and fiber optic sights. I love to shoot them all!!!!
My archery collection incluses a longbow, a recurve and a compound (shh, nobody tell!).
I have fun with all of them. Keep in mind, the more we split ourselves into separate entities, the more we loose our ability to retain our rights as hunters or outdoorsmen.
Embrace each other for being outdoor enthusiasts. You are all welcome at my campfire. :campfire:
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Bill, well said. If any of my comments were taken badly, I apologize. To me, the difference comes down to asthetics, pure and simple. Wood for me.
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I only check three archery websites, and as the original question is also posted the other two, could you let me know if I'm missing it on any other sites??
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it seems to seperate the guys who are serious about the level of their accuracy and equipment perormance from those that have other prorities
Sorry--as on another board, I got this far and my BS meter went off the scale. I have no problem whatsoever with folks that prefer metal risers--actually have a couple of friends (excellent shots) who like them. I've shot a few, and at this point and time they aren't for me.
Some of us like to hit dead center, some of us are happy to cut the line.
However, to imply that those of us that simply don't care for a metal riser, for whatever reason, have priorities other than accuracy and performance.......that's just bull. You don't have to take my word for it--check out the top ranked IBO shooters and the hunters on this site--many shoot wood risers. Then, tell those that don't shoot bows with metal risers how they aren't concerned with accuracy and performance. Well, nevermind--you already did that.
If you like 'em, shoot 'em. You don't have to justify your reasons to the world by trying to put down those that don't choose the same equipment.
Chad
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I been wanting to jump in this one for a couple days and I'am gonna with both feet.The Rx.for today is get your bows right now!!! go outside and take two arrows and call me in the morning.Don't get caught up in the maddness.Just focuse on the target.bd
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I am going to answer for others that are like I was 5 months ago.At that time I had shot a couple metal riser bows that shot fine but I loved the look of beautiful wood.I had never heard of ILF limbs and didn't know about their ability to adjust preload and tiller.
To me the metal riser isn't as important as the other aspects of a bow like the DAS.Though I think it wouldn't have the same ability made from anything else.
In the past no one bow would fit every archer because of the difference in draw length,release,and hunting style.The DAS or any bow with the same adjustability will allow an archer to set the limb perload so that the limbs are performing at their best at the archers draw.Being able to adjust tiller an archer can make a bow a little more shootable with different release methods like three under or holding more pressure on one finger.
ILF limbs are IMO and Olympic archers the best in the world.They will shoot very light or heavy arrows very well.You can buy them in a wide range of weights and length at as little as $100 to about $600.I know of at least 4 or 5 sources where you can call with a credit card and have a set of limbs the next week.
I still love the look of a beautiful wood riser but I have been shooting so good since I got my Dalaa I have sold a couple very nice wood bows and bought 3 more metal ILF risers.
Like I said I only post this to let others know my experience.Everyone can shoot whatever they like or as many different bows as they want.Choice is what makes this sport so much fun.
Best to all
Randy
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LBR, Bowdoc, you saved me the trouble! :)
Thank you!
Steve
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Randy, you are one of people I was referring to as liking metal risers and being an excellent shot. Although I love giving you a hard time, you know I'd never snub you due to the bow you like to shoot.
There's another thing I'll point out. That comment wasn't just a slap in the face for those that like wood risers, but how about all the selfbow shooters? Are they/we (I enjoy shooting my selfbow as well as my longbow) even lower on the totem pole concerning accuracy and performance?
You get on a slippery slope, then get stabbed by your own knife. If adjustable riser shooters are justified in such statements about those os us that like wood risers, then compound shooters are justified in questioning the metal riser recurve shooters about accuracy and performance, then the rifle shooters can question the compounds. Nice ain't it?
Just what other "concerns" would someone have, if not accuracy and performance? Making a fashion statement? Looking more "traditional" than the guy next to you? Good grief......
Sorry guys--this one got me fired up on another site when I saw it, and it's got me fired up again.
Chad
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This is good reading...the wood riser guy is bent because the metal riser guy said something disparaging...normally the other way around.
:jumper: :jumper: :jumper: :jumper:
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I think the whole point of my first post was simply to put into context what is going on here....Mr. Hust, IMO, has another agenda. There are many issues that are perpetual on this and other sites....things as simple as "what's the best broadhead"? I always try to answer such queries seriously because I assume the person asking the question is new or is interested in knowing where his decisions line up with others' experiences. Honest questions get honest replies. I also am concerned that some of us get so caught up in the very few things that make us different than the much more numerous ones that unite us. We ALL have more in common as hunters, because we hunt, than we have differences based upon what weapon we choose....even compounds and smoke poles. The day will come when we will all need to lay those differences aside and unite to save our heritage, which is more traditional than the kind of bow or arrow I prefer to shoot.
As to my comment about hitting dead center or cutting the llne, my best attempt at explaining that would be to say that those who try different things and pay attention to the details that make a difference in performance (those who bare shaft, for example) are usually more responsible in their approach to hunting and related issues than those who simply "shoot wood" because it is traditonal. I agree, some of the best shots I know are shooting wood (actually plastic impregnated wood) risered bows. I hope as time goes on that the more common theme would be "what works best" rather than "if I do this will I still be considered traditional"? Or better yet, follow the lead of a Primitive Archer article that basically expressed the idea that if you are serious about shooting better, take a target shooter to lunch. There is nothing wrong with striving for perfection in our shooting, even though perfection, in and of itself, is not reachable. But the attempt to continue to improve, even if it means trying a new bow, arrow material, fletching style, etc., means that we are not complacent in our efforts to get the best out of ourselves and our equipment. Bows and arrows of yesteryear proved themselves adequate for the task. However, that did not stop guys like Bear and Pearson and bowyers of today from attempting to make even better ones....or from Easton and others to make better arrows....even wood arrows come in hex shafts, compressed and laminated whatever.
I love this site. It has comraderie and a "brotherhood" of sorts that's a little different and laid back than others. My post was not an attempt to support the noition that we should all be shooting metal risers. It is just another option that I happen to find exceptional and I want to share my enthusiasm for the concept but I do at all feel or "preach" that YOU have to. Just give us guys that are outside the box the same respect you would like for the excitement you feel about any new idea or product that demonstrably impacts your shooting or hunting success in a positive way. I have a mild resentment for Mr. Hust's comments because on other sites the dicsussions have deteriorated and I didn't want it to happen here.
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Bill, again "Perfect"
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Despite the efforts of some to herd us all into one big group. I think that it is healthy to have good and open discussion on such issues.There's no reason we can't voice our opinions with some restraint, but support the common cause of bowhunting.
Anything other then a wood, or mostly wood bow, string, quiver, and wood arrows to me is excessive. I don't want a heavy bow, stabilizer, plunger,sights, overdraw, letoff, wheels, cables, clicker, slide bar, nor expanding broadheads. I also don't want a chronograph that mounts on the bow, nor a heat sensor, a lazer, or anything else made in a mechanical shop. I especially don't want a bow with a computer built into it.
That's my opinion. I have no problem with anyone who might not agree. I do have a problem with anyone who thinks that we have no right to feel that way, and voice our opinions .
Don't worry all you high tech guys shooting with us during "primitive weapons" season. We probably won't try to get a split season. Haha!
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I like them all.I also know none of them are the magic bullet.You still got to shoot them. :) Shoot what you like and learn to shoot it well.That is all that matters.jmo
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Bill..excellent follow-up post and great clarification.
James...I agree. If you want to be a good shot and then advance to being a great shot, get off of the couch and out to the target range. There is no substitute for practice regardless of what equipemt you choose.
As others have said, and perhaps better than I, the relavancy of traditional archery equipment preference is highly over-rated. On a personal note, I am much more interested in the ethics and integrity of the people I hunt with than the weapon they choose to use on the hunt itself.
Best wishes to everyone on the season ahead. I hope we all have great success with our trad bows, whatever those bows may be.
Claudia
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Chad
I don't think I'll ever convert you to metal riser ILF recurves.I don't really want to.I might have to shoot against you and I would just hate to beat you that bad.lol.
However I would like to make a point for anyone that has TRIED one of these bows and that is.It won't have all the benefit UNLESS it is set up for you.That one thing is what for me makes a bow like the DAS a cut above others I have tried.It's like trying a taylor made jacket that belongs to someone else and saying it doesn't fit.I know that is a little extreme but it is as close as I can get to being able to explain the ability to make one of these bows fit you.
LBR,you know I was just kidding.I would hate to see you change your name to RBR or MRRBR it just doesn't have the same ring.
To each his own with the most enjoyment.
Randy