Trad Gang

With all the talk about getting ready for the season,I thought I would ck out Primal dreams again.If this dvd don't get you pumped up you have no heart! AS I watch this dvd I think of all Seasons past and how lucky we are to be part of it,Well the season is almost upon us and its time for some new memories Good luck to all. >>>>----> ED

Amen!!!    :campfire:

That is one of the best dvd's ever. It always gets me ready for the season!!

If only all hunting videos were made like Primal Dreams we would not have to defend our right to hunt. A video that should be in every hunter's collection.

I'm glad you made this post.I'm going to go find mine and watch it.I have a caribou hunt with the guy's here on trad gang,This video should get me really fired up.  :)

How about some opinnions on Beyond Adrenalin ?
Before I buy both.

think i'll watch that one again myself! are ya coming to the hunt this year? hope to get the chance to hunt with you again!
 Ken

Yep, I sure enjoyed it...both times....bout time to watch it again.

Great portrayal of out lifestyle.

Speaking of which....I couldn't find any credit for the soundtrack on the DVD or the case.  Is that music available on a disc?

Makes me cry

Ah Biggie, you're too easy.  :)  

But I agree. It does make one want to cry, both in a good way and a sad way. Good way because it shows better than any other film I've seen what the bowhunting experience is to many of us. It also shows how far removed main stream bowhunting (all hunting really) has drifted away from what really is important, which is sad.

Biggie, are you exchanging your "pass the Mayo" for "pass the tissues".   :bigsmyl:

Beyond Adrenaline and Primal Dreams are completely different.  The first is more like your traditional hunting video with episodes and kills.  The griz charge is worth the price of it.

Primal Dreams serves a different purpose.

Primal Dreams: I watch the September elk chapter probably once a week and will be watching it again right before leaving for elk camp next Wednesday afternoon. Nothing puts me in a better frame of mind than that video. I have nothing against kill shots on video but with how well that video is done, they're just not needed. Too cool.

I have watched and re-watched my copy of Primal Dreams trying to make myself like it. I am just not there yet; maybe I am the only one. I am still a bit mad at myself for succumbing to the hype.

I Thank all who were involved in making that dvd. It does the soul good and it's good medicine everytime I watch it.If you don't have it do youself a favor and get it and invite some close friends over, grab some popcorn ( may I suggest 10 bags ) and sit back for two full breathtaking hours of good clean viewing. Thanks Guys for a job well done !!!! God Bless ! Keefers <")))><    :campfire:

PD is a great DVD, I'm glad I got it.. Now only if I had the DVD from Tradgang to watch now....

JDS3

 

Quote

I have watched and re-watched my copy of Primal Dreams trying to make myself like it. I am just not there yet; maybe I am the only one. I am still a bit mad at myself for succumbing to the hype

Your not the only one. It did not do anything for me.

                            John

Primal Dreams  is a great video, but I like the parts best with the hunters in it. I didn't care too much for watching the deer in the food plots--not my thing. I hunt in the deep woods. All in all it is pretty good.

I have primal dreams. Beyond Adrenaline sounds like something that might move me.

Thanks for your opinion guys. We know that videos are not for everyone, and yes we did try to make PD a little different. Your comments are very helpful if we make another one.

Some folks have asked us about Bart Schleyer (the friend we dedicated the film to). You can read about Bart in the Aug/Sept and Oct/Nov issues of TBM.
Thanks again,
Mike

I thought it was very enjoyable. The scenery was great and the messages from Gene Wensel's narration were right on. I would have liked to have seen a little more actual hunting though. It is not often that one gets to see the Wensel's or other archery legends hunt. I hope they will make a "hunting video" sometime soon that will share not only their philosophy, but also their strategy with us.

Mark

QuoteOriginally posted by Herdbull:
Thanks for your opinion guys. We know that videos are not for everyone, and yes we did try to make PD a little different. Your comments are very helpful if we make another one.

If we make another one???????

I was kinda' hoping you were at least 90% finished with the sequel.  :)  

Yes, PD was different from the run of the mill hunting video, but where is it written that a hunting video cannot be made with taste, class, quality videography, and a strong, meaningful message? I mean really, just how many times does one need to view a cameraman and a hunter  sitting in a tree whispering to each other before, during, and after a shot. They all start looking alike after about the third one.

Great job with PD guys.

Sounds like an awesome video where can i get a copy?

NOMAD88   You can check it out at  www.brothersofthebow.com (http://www.brothersofthebow.com)

Tom    You are right, we are working on another one.... the brothers are never in a hurry. Ha! I guess Barry tore a tendon and may miss early season scouting and filming, but he should be OK.

I bought a copy because I heard that it was beautiful and non-hunters would enjoy it -a good family video that might even help introduce people to the beauty in hunting.

My wife and I watched it -she is a non-hunter -and the film was beautiful in places. She especially enjoyed watching the turkeys -until the arrows started to fly. I had to admit it was pretty gruesome. The juxtaposition between wild turkeys doing their thing in the utter silence of the woods, then one after another, about a dozen turkeys being skewered on film was hard to watch, and my wife left the room.

I know hunting videos are an acquired taste, but I think in general kill scenes should be limited, and chosen with some care.

The process of the hunt is what brings us out there. The crescsendo may be the shot, but the kill itself is violent, and non-hunters are sensitive, and I hope most hunters are not entirely insensitive, to that fact.

PD was good and attempted to capture many of the reasons we spend such long hours in the woods. It succeeds in many places. But the number of turkey kills in succession killed it for my
wife. A single kill and Barry carrying out that Tom, and maybe a game dinner with family and friends, with recounts of the hunt, would have been much more effective, and more akin to most hunters experience.

QuoteOriginally posted by PaulRoberts:

I had to admit it was pretty gruesome.

Such a strong statement.........gruesome?  Hardly

We have to always remember that most hunters have been PROGRAMMED to either expect or reject kill scenes. Its hard to stay in the gray zone and yet pass the message. Some people love big bucks in velvet while others get bored. Many potential customers immediately ask "How many kill shots are in it?" before they buy. I'm tempted to ask them how many they need...
As has been said, we'll never make everyone happy. We've had suggestions everywhere from no music whatsoever, to hating it, to asking to buy the sound track. Some people thought we shot ten turkeys before we actually killed one (in reality, all turkeys hit were killed). We have two seasons of all five of us filming since we made Primal Dreams. I must say we have got some outstanding footage and more rare footage and freak antlers, etc. We also have close to a hundred kills on film but very few of them are good enough to share with the general public. We'll see. Stay tuned. Thanks for the comments. They help.

Gene,

Does this mean we can hope for a sequel of some sort? Both PD and Spirit of the bow were great. Thanks!

Thanks Gene. IMO, beauty and process are too rare in hunting videos, yet commonplace in hunting. I'm looking forward to what you have coming. For me anyway, your efforts are in the right direction.

TJ ,
Gene had to go out of town, but yes you are correct. We are working on a sequel of sorts, but we don't feel it will be ready until maybe a year and half or so. There is a lot we would like to do better. When dealing with nature, some of it takes time and opportunity along with a little luck. Thanks.  Mike

I'd like to throw my thoughts in the rings as well.  
First off, I love PD And have watched it many times.  I loved the music and naration. Though I didn't find the turky shots gruesome at all, I did find it too repatative.  I liked Paul's idea of a kill shot, then walking away with the bird and then a scene with the hunter and family sitting down to eat, or maybe with friends all laughing and having a good time telling stories over the cooked bird.  
On a similar vein There were a number of scenes which showed one of the brothers release an arrow, then cut to the scene with the downed animal.  This I thought a nice classy touch.  Personaly I have no need so see the actually arrow hitting the animal.  On the other hand I can see some arguments for having such arrow impact scenes as well.  We ARE killing animals out there after all, Why hide it or gloss it over?  
 The thing with the moose hunt however, had no scene with the hunter shooting at all.  One min.
Mike is calling to some moose, next he's walking up to the "fallen monarch".  I think it would have been a much smoother story telling if you had included a scene that showed him coming to full draw and release, then him walking up to the moose.  Even if it was filmed later.  
The elk hunt section was great.  The deer in the Fields, though I enjoyed it, I felt it was a little to long.  I think that's it for my opinions.  Over all its a great DVD and I enjoy it far and away better then any other modern hunting DVD.  
Derek

Bard 1 pretty much said most everything I think about PD. Best dang DVD I've ever watched  :thumbsup:  
Wished it had a mule deer in it, and my favorite, the mt lion. I really liked the shot of the little bob getting the bushy tail. Rare footage.
Thanks guys, waitin for the next one.

Mike,

Thanks for the response  :)  I agree and second Paul's ideas. I also like Bard1's idea about the moose. But in the end mother nature is the ultimate director of a film like this. You can only put in the movie what mother nature allows you to catch on tape. 1 1/2 years is a wait well worth waiting for another dvd of this caliber.

Thanks to you, your brothers, Gene, Barry, and anyone I might have missed who is working on these dvd's. They're what gets a lot of us through the off season and gets us dreaming of what's to come.

T.J.

JSD3,

succumb to the hype?

I don't know what YOUR definition of hype is...but my definition is " extravagant exaggeration "(as "mile-high ice-cream cones")  

I don't think the discussion by hundreds of bowhunters who liked the message of the video when you and John didn't find anything of value in it - necessarily MAKES our praise of it "hype".

Some folks are stage one hunters their whole lives- ie- gotta kill something. Some are stage two all their lives- ie filling tags. Stage 3 is hunting trophies I think, and four is hunting specific animals.

That doesn't necessarily make them any less skilled or any less of a hunter than a stage five(there for the entire experience, and the process is more important than the end result) but it does make them different.

Maybe the thrill you get from hunting is more closely tied to taking game, and because of that you get less out of "the rest of the story" ?? I'm not picking on you, or trying to be mean or insulting...I just think that your response - and John's - were unique and interesting enough that I wanted to explore why you feel the way you do.

I spend a lot of time in bowhunter education and it's something I think about a great deal.

Wow,This is not what I expected from this post!I was just saying I like to watch this dvd before the season starts,Every one has there opinion I like to watch Kill scenes as much as the next guy,But this dvd is much more than that,It gets us in tune to whats around us,Thanks Barry and Gene looking foward to the next one well done!  :clapper:  >>>----> ED

:bigsmyl:     :)     ;)     :D   Just a few more of my thoughts on a job well done. Thanks Mike, Barry,Gene and everyone else who took part in P.D. God Bless! Keefers <")))><

"The Journey IS the Destination".  "Process over Product."  Two themes I once discussed with Fred Bear after viewing his great film The Restless Spirit.  Over 20 years passed before those concepts, IMHO, were adequately addressed by a bowhunting film. Primal Dreams, like Fred's film, addresses why we hunt.

Since we're giving opinions I'll voice mine.  I just recently purchased the video and enjoyed it.  I felt it was a blend of "River Runs Through It"/Wild Kingdom/and a hunting video. I have to agree with Bard1 in that I felt it would have been better (for me) if the "hunting" segments had more of progression feel to them.  Sometimes they did and sometimes they almost felt like they were less of a visual narrative and more part of the other images that glided past, and that may have been the intent.  I would also have liked someone else to have done the narrative.  That is not a critisicm against Gene but I kept envisioning a different voice, probably one from many movies I have seen, and I distracted myself.  Kind of like hearing a favorite tune played on a piano and thinking you wish you could hear it played on an acoustic guitar.  A mear matter of artistic interpretation.  I appreciate the quality of the images and the music and the sentiment of the narrative.  I like many types of hunting videos, from the over-the-shoulder, to the instructional and "interprative".  We get so few of the last two.

does this video have a lot of traditional kill shots?

Nope.

It amazes me all the arm chair critics/producers that are out there..........

 Drop some cash buy you a camera, get out there, spend some time in the woods and produces your own video.  Then you can have it the way you want it, but be prepared for the arm chair critics/producers.

P.S.  I'm sure James Earl Jones is always available for some voice overs.

TexasBubba,
  I guess you could say I'm an arm chair critic/producer but I can't remember many videos that I thought were 100% perfect and if I may quote:
 

QuoteThanks for your opinion guys.

QuoteThanks for the comments. They help.  

I tried to make mine in a positive, constructive manner.

Ray,
Oh yes the "hype" got me. For over a year every post I read stated something to this effect, "greatest bowhunting DVD ever" or "award winning bowhunting video". I'm glad people like the dvd and I'm even happy it won awards. In my opinion it is not a "hunting" video. Some people say that it's the best they have ever seen. Better than Bowhunting October Whitetails?  I think not even close.
I love the sight of an oak ridge in late October and the smell of the woods after the rain; but I don't need the sierra club existentialism bowseason on DVD. Let alone the $20 I put into the Wensel's pockets to get it.
Teach me why did you pick that stand location or how to set up correctly on those elk. Good bowhunting video's in my opinion teach.
Like I said in my earlier post, I may be the only one that will state this opinion in public. To those who PM'd me, thanks and I do understand.

John III

I rest my case. You've proven my hypothesis to be correct.

Ditto

So do I.

Here's my two cents worth.  I was inspired, no COMPELLED to take up the simple bow and arrow after watching Fred Bear's film "The Oldest Game" some 40 years ago.  As far as hunting technique, well, it taught me very little, however it did capture my imagination and take me to a place where sounds of trickling water, rustling maple leaves, and the smell of fresh earth abound.  Primal Dreams does this too.  It is a heartfelt attempt to communicate the total hunting experience to bowbenders and non-hunters alike.  In that vein I think it is quite successful.  Is it perfect, of course not, however the Wensel and Mittens have created a fine film on an out-of-pocket budget. I have personal knowledge of the difficulties they encountered in bringing their vision to the public. It was, indeed, a labor of love for the sport they cherish, not - in any way, an attempt at turning a big profit.  Please consider these points when passing judgment.

As a lifelong bowhunter, the climax of it all is watching the arrow slice thru the air and strike, then disapear thru the chest cavity. Crude sounding but nonetheless, it's the point in which we realize the plan coming together.
I understand guys who want to see the "kills" and there are plenty of tapes out there for that. But realistically, the moment of impact is such a small percentage of bowhunting, why should it be the large percentage of hunting videos?
I have been hunting with G&B for over 20 years now, let me say this, MONEY DOESN'T DRIVE WHAT THEY DO IN BOWHUNTING. They LOVE bowhunting. Sometimes I think too much :-) They want to share the spiritual aspects with us and this DVD is one way to point out how much heartfelt love they have for the outdoors.
When you simply consider the time and effort and cost to edit and produce thousands of hours of footage down to a two hour dvd, then split any profit 5 ways, you can easily see $$$$ doesn't drive this effort.

You're given a chance here to spend time afield with two of the finest bowhunters who've ever lived. Imagine one or the other of them standing beside you as you watch this footage. See what they see, walk where they walk. Feel it!

When we (2XL Productions) produced Spirit of the Bow, and I'm sure it didn't sell as many copies as PD, we never did recover all of our costs.

:wavey:

I think it was among the best 20 dollar bills I ever sent to anyone !  I liked it alot. I'll admit, when I first put it on, and I did'nt see alot of kills, I thought what ? Then I started hearing and seeing what they saw and what I beleived they were wanting others too feel, so I restarted the video. It then became clear, (yea, I'm a bit slow at times LOL) I think it was an awsome video. I'll buy any video from those guys, they have the right feeling about what we love and do. I don't kill many animals and I don't get many chances to be out among it,  but I have a good time just being out there and seeing them and knowing a feeling that many will never feel or truely know. It is truely not about the kill, that is secondary to the feeling one gets when hunting. For me, killing anything is a weird feeling, but a feeling that must be endured during the process of life. I don't kill anything I'm not going to eat. I pay tribute to those animals I do kill to feed my family. All that said, it was a great video my whole family watched and enjoyed. I have shared it with others who don't hunt, but understand the process of responsible hunting, they enjoyed it as well. I kinda understand the turkey segment, I'd be excited too, if I could take one of them with a bow, I'm still trying  ;)  
This was a very different video compared to the October Whitetails, but a dang good one none the less.
Just my very humble opinion
Jerald

We do not hunt to kill- we kill to have hunted.


- Y Gassett

I got a great idea to the people who don't like the P.D. dvd that they have purchased and this isn't a thread to bring any arguments. List them ( only if you want to ) as a free give away like so many other thoughtful Trad Gangers have done and give them to whoever you pick .If you have an archery club that has a library where members can sign out Books, Mags and Dvd's you could possibly donate them to the clubs!!! I love my P.D. dvd and I share it with my friends who may not have the funds to buy one.Just a thought if you don't like yours! That would be a great thing to do and can be very rewarding to the heart! God Bless ! Keefers <")))><

I hunt as much as anybody, probably more,  and I spend far more time observing, than I do killing. Kinda like the DVD.

Marty, the observing ends when the arrow is loosed. That being said I agree, you do spend less time killing  ;-)

That's cause you always take the good spots. You're too big to argue with.By the way, you looked really good in Primal Dreams.

QuoteOriginally posted by MARTY:
That's cause you always take the good spots. You're too big to argue with.By the way, you looked really good in Primal Dreams.

That's probably the only downside to watching a long feature film. No matter how many times you watch it there are always things you miss.

Now I'm gonna be forced to go back and view it yet again looking for Biggie. You would think a man of Biggies stature would show up noticeably in the first 27 views.   :)

I didn't see my bud in there, either, Tom..so don't feel bad.

Maybe that's a "dig" from Marty at the bigster....you never know about those two!

You will soon be able to see Marty in his own feature film....  " An impala Too Far" I believe, is the title, about his African adventures.

hahHahHahaAhahhHhahaahahahahHHAhahHAHAHAHhAHa
Now that's funny Ray

thought you might enjoy that, Wayne!!!!! Can't wait to hear what Marty thinks....I'm sure payback is going to be something to behold.

ttt. for the marty-meister!

I just got off the phone with Marty McMahon about fifteen minutes ago. This weekend he renewed his wedding vows with his bride Ruth Ann. Somehow the conversation got turned around and we got laughing so hard I got scared. I can't tell you guys the details on here but let me just say I was laughing so hard I started choking and got dizzy and had to sit down, with tears streaming down my face. The man is a gem... a real, honest, piece of work! I gotta go.. I still feel dizzy. bw

Tom, you are correct. Biggie isn't in Primal Dreams. He tried out for the speaking voice, but no one could understand him. Something about y'all and crick( you know like the one in his avatar). And Ray " An Impala Too Far" is more appropriate for you Sweet Cheeks. I had 'em close in Africa, you were still in Ga.!!!!!!!!!!!

You do have that right, Barry...there's no one even close to the funny of Marty.

Marty,you got it, bud....that's your story and you're sticking to it...

I love ya, Man!!!!!  :bigsmyl:    :campfire:

Hype?...I think not.  Just a groundswell of very positive feelings from a lot of hunters who wanted something different and found it here.  Doesn't necessarily mean they don't like kill videos either, but this is a video one can watch with the family or non-hunters without them being grossed out.  

(Gruesome...come on, give me a break.  If this video is gruesome, I can't believe you could even watch 90% of what's on the market without losing your lunch).

To the fellow who demands a video be educational, I would say I like educational videos also.  But I think there are very few standard hunting videos that educate in any way.  Usually these sponsored hunters are climbing up in stands set by others; no educational value there.  Instead we usually see poor shot selection that goes unexplained, or is passed off as "I had to take that shot," or poor shot placement that also goes unexplained.  Too often, I wish they'd explain the shot and the trailing results.  How far was the trail, where did they actually hit?  (And, how many other shots were actually taken to make this video that didn't end up with the lucky ending?).

Did I have my favorite and least favorite parts of Primal Dreams?  Of course.  I'm kind of from the camp if you've seen one turkey, you've seen 'em all.  But the elk and moose (mountain) footage was awesome and something that is almost impossible for me to experience until retirement.  And I can never get enough whitetails...  To each their own.

I don't think anyone's mentioned it yet, but I'm thinking the reason the moose footage doesn't have any shot sequences, etc. was the fact that it may have been a solo hunt.  I'm not sure, but I think this was also the TBM story which made me sore just from reading it (the packing of the moose back to camp).

I think constructive criticism is beneficial to the boys, but for many naysayers, if you've never tried to film your own hunts, it's a three-ring circus up in the tree all the while you're trying to kill something.  Quite frankly, the whole experience (trying to juggle all that) is very over-rated.  And it can cost you shots at critters, which is a high price to pay.

You're right Bryce, the moose recovery sequence was from Mike Mitten's Alaskan solo hunt, the one featured in TBM.  Hey, I hate to put a negative spin on retirement, but I booked an archery elk drop camp 3 years ago and have been saving up those precious preference points in anticipation of being out of the classroom to chase elk. When I first booked the hunt 2 pts was just about a 100% draw for my unit . . . weell, I just retired and was all-pumped to FINALLY hit the mountains in Sept. after a 30 year wait, just to find out that my unit has become, according to the outfitter, "popular", and that 2 points will give me less than a 50% chance in 08.  Look's like it may take at least one more year to get a tag.  Hopefully I'll get one before I age out, HA!

Marty, I was just having a bit of sport with Biggie. Of course I saw him in his cameo appearance in PD. How could one miss him? He was in the last scene, with Mike walking off camera stage left.  :)  

And don't worry about missing an impala. I missed an animal once in 1973. Hey, it happens.

PD is a great hunting film (yes, it actually is a "true" hunting film) any way you slice it. The way the masses hunt these days, and the way they view hunting, I suspect there are more people outside the hunting community who appreciate what the film is than there are those who buy a hunting license.

Wary Buck,

I agree with everything you said and that's a great explination for the moose hunt. No video is worth missing or jepordizing a shot on an animal. PD was a diffrent kind of hunting video and in my opinion was needed very badly. It shows what hunting is really about and that's becoming one with nature. 99% enjoying nature and 1% shooting. (hopefully that doesn't come off as me under estimating the importance and thrill of the shot)

I can't wait to find out what you guys roll out with next. But if it's ever crossed your minds I think you guys could make a better educational video then anyone out there  ;)  SO feel free to think about it lol.

I think it should be mandatory viewing for all hunters, but I think bowhunters could appreciate it more.

I have a phone message from Uncle Barry...can't understand a dang thing he said except Marty, HHAhHHHHahaHha, funny, hHAhhaHAhhaaahahhahooooheheeheehhh, call you later, hehehahahahhahaahwwhwhwhwhooho
then I started laughing...the man has an infectious laugh......

I just finished watching "Primal Dreams" ............. outstanding  ...........  no arm pumping and disrespectful  celebrations ..........sure dont miss that  .................... well done  ......... worth every penny

Rick I agree. It's a video for the true hunter. Looking forward to the next one. Keep up the Great Work...Tdog

With the exception of the walk-ups, almost ALL the footage was filmed "solo", as we didn't use any cameramen and carried our own cameras and tripods or treepods. Easier said than done.

I really respect that approach. That's one of the reasons I really like survivorman on Disc. because he carries all his own camera gear and is truley alone out there. No camera men to keep him company.

TJ   ... I like your quote ... spread the word.

Thanks Mike! Out of the whole dvd that line really jumped out at me. I just started bow hunting last year and had that exact senario happen, and when it did I was happier and more excited at that moment then any other. And that caught me by suprise but it's true. I'll definatly spread the word. I hope you have a great season.

TJ, There were a lot of good behind the scenes moments for us, and that one with the big 5x5 at the low fence was of them for me. We each shared in writing and contributing to the narrations, and I can remember how that scene grabbed me when I heard the words that Gene wrote to go with it. Boy, did me and my brother David ever want to get that buck. I had him another time at 28 yards, but he was just too alert for me to draw. Had to let him walk passed. We have 5 sets of his sheds... he's just a great representative of the species. Very peculiar buck in that most big bucks are more visible and a little easier to film during the summer velvet season, but this guy we never saw until the rut.... and then we saw him quite a lot for a buck of his age. He was 5 ½  years old at the scene by the fence and the following year when he chased that doe down by the water (yes same buck) he was 6 ½. He eventually was taken by a muzzle-loader hunter, but I hope that dose not spoil your dream. :>)   Mike

Mike, The scene where the doe was sitting in the water and stood up and walked away with the buck in trail? He was a beautiful buck and a perfect representation of the grand savy of a whitetail. 5 sheds, 2 close encounters, and the film. I bet you wanted him bad! Doesn't spoil my dream lol just makes it stronger. There's more like him and eventualy I'll get him. Great story thanks!