Trad Gang

i've always wondered what kind of accuracy a purely instinctive shooter can ultimately aspire to... obviously, this will have a lot to do with individual "talent" of course, so this is kind of a "poll" to see, on average, what kind of groupings experienced, longer-term instinctive shooters are getting...

so how well are you guys shooting?  if you could post your "statistics", at what max distance you can shoot consistent groups and how big, ie. "i can do consistent 4" groups at 20 yards."  and how long you've been shooting instinctively/how long it took you to get to that level of accuracy...

and please, with the hopes of avoiding any controversy about what constitutes "purely instinctive", let me just define it as "folks who just pick a spot and let the arrow fly without any conscious effort to aim or use any specific techniques like gap shooting or string walking, etc."

When I'm on my game I can hit the kill zone with 8 out of 10 arrows from hunting distance. I don't shoot groups because I don't see the need to do so plus it kills arrows.
 When I'm shooting I don't want to see my arrow until it is in the target. I want all my concentration to be on the spot that the arrow will go to.

i don't shoot groups either - i just shoot one arrow and then retrieve it, figuring that for hunting, the FIRST arrow is the only arrow that matters... and for that kind of shooting, perhaps y'all could post something like "at 20 yards, i'm consistently within 2" of my intended spot," for example...

i'm with Pat i don't do groups well i shoot fast split finger with a low anchor just feels better to me my practice usually consists of taking turns with my son shooting a rolling old basketball lol

only took one deer by choice this year 17 yd shot don't remember anything other than the arrow going thru the deer and it falling 30 yds away!

6 inch group at 15 yards 100% - 9 inch group at 25 yards 100%. 3 inch group at 5 yards. In the woods stump shooting I "hit" pinecones, spots on stumps, clumps of grass or dirt. On game thoroughly accurate and deadly prefer 5 yards for turkeys - 10 to 15 for whitetais, bears, hogs - out to 25 comfortably if needed for elk, moose, caribou - easily accurate for small gamel.
30+ years - this level of accuracy for the last 12.
shoot a minimum of once a week - prefer 3 to 4 days a week 15 minute each session.
Stump shoot often especially during hunts.
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Providing weather cooperates,  I shoot every chance I can.  I try to shoot every day that I can find at least 10 - 15 minutes to do so.  When time isnt an issue obviously,  I shoot for a much longer session.  I shoot 3D targets around the house at various ranges from 10 to 45 yrds.   I do shoot groups as well,  on a large foam block style target with no defined bullseye or spot....I just hold for the middle,  center mass.  I work on my groups out to 40 yards.  Once my muscles are warm, I can hold softball (sometimes better) sized groups at 40 yards.  Training at that distance makes my shorter more realistic shooting (hunting) distances a walk in the park.  I shoot a modern 3 pc long bow.

The best analogy I have heard is 3" every ten yards, meaning, 3" @10 yds, 6"@20 yds etc. I think that is realistically good shooting.

QuoteOriginally posted by LookMomNoSights:
Providing weather cooperates,  I shoot every chance I can.  I try to shoot every day that I can find at least 10 - 15 minutes to do so.  When time isnt an issue obviously,  I shoot for a much longer session.  I shoot 3D targets around the house at various ranges from 10 to 45 yrds.   I do shoot groups as well,  on a large foam block style target with no defined bullseye or spot....I just hold for the middle,  center mass.  I work on my groups out to 40 yards.  Once my muscles are warm, I can hold softball (sometimes better) sized groups at 40 yards.  Training at that distance makes my shorter more realistic shooting (hunting) distances a walk in the park.  I shoot a modern 3 pc long bow.

Softball groups at 40 ? WOW !!!!

Those of you who have never shot an NFAA field course would be surprised at how good you can get. Shooting only one arrow?......maybe for stumps but for real practice and to train yourself to be consistent any athlete must do it repetitively. For me, the only way I know that I am consistent is to shoot groups. If there was an NFAA field course around that is about all I would shoot for serious practice along with stump shooting at intervals. 3D is for fun. But if that is all  you shoot and only do one arrow I think you are cheating yourself. There are exceptions but they are rare...IMO.

On a good day I can hit within an inch of a ping-pong ball at 20 yards.  On a bad day I can hit a pie-plate consistently at 20 yards.  Most days I an put 90% of arrows in a 6 inch group at 20 yards.

I've been shooting instincively since I was about 10, but I've had a lot of prolonged breaks in there.  I've been shooting a couple times a week for the last 2 years or so pretty consistently.

Show me your 300 round score and I'll know what kind of "groups" your shooting.

I see your point Bill, but couldn't you do the same thing by shooting multiple arrows at a bag target with dots on it?  Seems like you could get a pretty good idea of "grouping" without actually shooting arrows on top of each other.  Arrows are expensive/time consuming to make....

Given the definition of 'accuracy' being the distance from your impact point to intended point of impact. This question seems to be geared towards one arrow. Where to me 'consistency' refers to group size.

I shoot as accurately as I need when hunting or stump shooting. Even 3D I shoot well, usually within 3'' of my intended spot out to 30ish yards.

But I shoot 2D targets poorly, and never group as well as if I shoot one at a time.

QuoteOriginally posted by BAK:
Show me your 300 round score and I'll know what kind of "groups" your shooting.

Exactly! A 300 round will tell the tale. I shoot 230 to 240 at 20 yards on 300 rounds. Some days I'm in the 220s and have shot a couple 250s. A 300 round is the best way for me to see how I'm doing.
We shot a 300 round one Sunday a year or two ago. We normally shoot animal paper targets at our winter indoor shoots. Everyone was surprised how much lower our scores were than what we thought we would shoot. It was a real eye opener.

I would throw tennis balls out from 10-35 yards or so and I would hit it 9 times out of ten even at 35 yards. I hunt with a guy in Kentucky who I watched put 5 arrows touching each other at 45 yards! You can expect as much accuracy as you are willing to work for. If you work hard enough I believe there is no limit to your accuracy.

Caleb

I am in the one arrow at a time crowd.  Currently I can hit within six inches of my spot at 20 yds which is a 12 inch group.  I can do it within 3 inches at 15 yds.  Currently I am shooting 'poorly' as compared to my previous shooting.  I'm in my 6th year of shooting.

QuoteOriginally posted by gringol:
On a good day I can hit within an inch of a ping-pong ball at 20 yards.  On a bad day I can hit a pie-plate consistently at 20 yards.  Most days I an put 90% of arrows in a 6 inch group at 20 yards.

I've been shooting instincively since I was about 10, but I've had a lot of prolonged breaks in there.  I've been shooting a couple times a week for the last 2 years or so pretty consistently.

I'm in Gringol's class.  I know I can put five arrows in a 2" group at 20 yards with two of my bows (62"/52# & 66"/50# recurves).  When the angels sing and the sun shines it has happened.  Happily I did it in front of a bunch of compound shooters at a local indoor range I was a guest at two years ago.    :biglaugh:   Nothing like pressure to improve focus and determination.

This morning at 20 yards I took one shot and hit the 1" black spot I draw in the center of a 6" small paper plate I have on my bale with a 58"/47# recurve.  (I quit with one shot today).  ;-)

Usually my concentration falters, I release bad, something.  I also draw 29-1/2" and my shorter bows pinch my fingers and aren't as accurate in my hands.  I end up 6" at 20 yards consistantly.  I shoot wood and there will always be weight and spine differences that contribute a bit.

Currently I'm shooting with a suffering ring finger on my draw hand and trying not to over-do it until I heal up.  (Severed the tip on 11/03/12 & is reattached but the nail bed is messed up & sore).  Anyway, I am only shooting one or two arrows per session but shooting every day.  I missed five days between October 2010 and Nov 2012 of shooting every day at least once.  

I replace broken nocks about twice a month, so I must have something going right.  I also went 2:4 on red (pine) squirrels this past deer season.  If you have tried that you know 50% is a pretty good statistic.

My goal is a 6" group at 30 yards.  When I'm truly shooting well, I can hit a 1" circle with 4 of 5 arrows from 10 yards and a 2" circle with 4 of 5 arrows from 20 yards.

Most of my practice is done one arrow at a time.  Pick the spot, shoot, and recover arrow.

I've shot instinctively for 9 years.  I shoot about 5x per week from Jun - Nov and about 3x per week during the rest of the year.

Groups are definately misleading unless you shoot arrow with black fletching and nocks.

Say you shoot one arrow at a spot and hit it, then the next time you shoot, your eye is naturally drawn to that arrow unless is less obvious than your spot and so on and so on.

Try to pick a spot a couple inches away from your arrow in the target and intentionally shoot just a couple inches away. Sure, it can be done, but it is much harder than grouping.

If you are honest with yourself, you should know if you hit the spot you are looking at. If you do it over and over then you are consistant even if you pick a different spot for each arrow.

I have never shot more than one arrow at an animal standing in the exact same location.


I have been shooting purely instinctive with a longbow for at least 6 years and a form of it for longer. I find that I only shoot well on 3D when I don't have a troubled or busy mind (hard to concentrate). I also find that shortly in to the round it is as much fun chatting with the other archers and less fun focussing. I have however shot well enough to win a few small tournaments of not more than 100 people in my class.
I have taken many deer and hogs out to 35 yards with out loosing more than a couple of deer and two hogs. I have not shot at every opportunity at either the farthest range or shortest because it didn't feel right too. Yes, I have missed too, including 3 out of 4 jumpy bucks in one night and on another night, I missed a rather calm buck 3 times only to kill another late in the evening.
All of the lost game were at under 15 yards. Cant quite say what happened there for sure but it wasn't an accuracy thing. Most of the game missed were under 20 yards.

Remember, with a referance shooting style, you must first estimate yardage. If you are off there, than being accurate can only be an accident or some instinct took over.

Nothing is perfect, all we can do is strive to do our best and take our best shot.

Many would do well to find one thing and stick with it. Rome wasn't built in a day and neither was a traditional archer.

good luck, BigJim

This post is making me manic/depressive. But I love it. Having just picked up my bow again this year after 10 years overseas, I worry a bit about my accuracy. I have a 15 yard range set up in my barn, and mostly I shoot at 10 to 12 yards. I can group (depending on level of attention I'm paying) anywhere between 3 and 8 inches. I am getting better. But man, golfballs? Crap! I'm behind in my skill level. Just kidding, mostly. But I don't feel, after reading this post, that I'm too far away from my hunting accuracy. Thanks for sharing this information. Great post.

I haven't met more than a handfull of guys that can consitently shoot 4" groups at 20yrds. most guys tend to forget the bad days and can only remember the good days  

Six arrows@20 yards warm up
http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv133/DavidMcLendon/photo_zps4da4a237.jpgwith  this Shrew Classic Hunter
http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv133/DavidMcLendon/CarbonShrew3.jpg  immediately prior to killing this buck off the ground wearing a ghillie @ 8 yards.
  (http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv133/DavidMcLendon/IMG_4782_zps3e099efc.jpg)
I shoot generally 3.5-4" @ 30 yards and used to be pretty good at longer ranges, but since going to the ground with the suit, the game for me is trying to get close enough that I really don't need the bow. It can be really exciting at times.

Why would a "purely instinctive shooter" need to shoot groups if he or she is a hunter? I like to think the first shot counts... Shooting groups sometimes helps your brain overload or pressure yourself into a flyer... Stump shooting and or roving builds your first shot into a good one...

But That's Just Me...    :dunno:    ...

... mike ...

QuoteOriginally posted by BAK:
Show me your 300 round score and I'll know what kind of "groups" your shooting.

Exactly..........no running from that.

Last time I shot that round my best was in the 250's

QuoteOriginally posted by mcgroundstalker:
Why would a "purely instinctive shooter" need to shoot groups if he or she is a hunter? I like to think the first shot counts... Shooting groups sometimes helps your brain overload or pressure yourself into a flyer... Stump shooting and or roving builds your first shot into a good one...

But That's Just Me...     :dunno:     ...

... mike ...

Cuz I'd get pretty tired pretty quick of walking back and forth 20-35 yards pulling one arrow out of the target again and again.

I can group arrows where they touch shooting at a dime size target at 10 yards.  Out at 20 I can group them inside a tuna can sized target.

I think that you will find that most guys shoot a bow about half as good as they state on the Internet, there a VERY few archers that can hit a 4" circle at 20 yards, no matter what their shooting method is, so don't get discouraged if your shooting is not up to par with these guys.

I don't shoot too good now, but boy when I was young.......LOL.PSUBowhunter there's alot of merit to what you say!

I can usually hit my bag target at 7 yards in the basement.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob W.:
I can usually hit my bag target at 7 yards in the basement.

This^  :archer2:

just for the record, my "4 inches at 20 yards" comment in the original post was just an example - hope no one thought i'm saying i'm that accurate... heck, i don't even have a figure for you at 20 yards - i'm not consistent enough to even measure a group!  4" group one day, 12" group the next...

now at THREE yards, boy howdy, i can smack 'em home EVERY time!  :clapper:      :biglaugh:

To clarify what I was trying to say in my previous post is really pretty simple if you have ever been coached in any kind of athletics or been trained on  a musical instrument. Practicing repetitions (assuming you are doing it correctly) will make any physical skill better. You can get good enough so that your shooting or playing an instrument becomes second nature and little thought is involved. I found field archery sharpened  my skills....4 arrows at 18 targets done twice a day is a lot different than one arrow at a 3D target on a 30 target range. If you want to be shooting well enough so you don't have to think about it in a  hunting situation you simply need to correctly practice repetitively....whether its called grouping or shooting spots. Shooting more than one arrow at a target can tell you a lot about your shooting, how well your equipment is in tune, etc. To be able to shoot that one arrow at an animal accurately and without thinking takes practice and thinking beforehand. Those of us that experience that "not remembering the shot" at an animal when it goes where you want it have a lot of practice arrows under their belt in order for that to happen....and the more practice you do the more that will happen.

My arrows usually hit right where they were pointed when I released.  While I've never measured this, I would honestly guess most of the time I shoot about a 6 - 8" group at 20 yards or so, 8 - 12" @ 30.  I seldom miss the Rhinehart multi-sided target out to 40 or 50 yards - I would guess it's about 18" in diameter.

There are days when that target seems about as big as a golf ball though ...

When I shoot at 20 yards I can usually stay inside of 6" of my intended target. When I am having a good day I can often rattle arrows if I am shooting groups at that distance. I have had one Robin Hood at 20 yards where I was truly focused on my first arrow. I also had one at 35 yards that was purely luck but it was still cool.

I don't shoot past 35 yards as much as I used to, but last year when I was shooting out to 45 yards I was almost 50% shooting instinctive only on a 3D deer target. I feel completely confident at 25 yards and in on a deer size target and feel okay at 30 yards after that I am probably going to pass on a deer size target.

I'm pretty consistently hitting inside 6" at 20 yards (discounting the occasional fly away).  I just recently discovered that I'm much better at shooting in the dark, which to me means my brain is getting in the way of my shooting when I can really see what's going on.   :dunno:

When you do it right you don't remember the shot, it just happens.

I shoot nearly every day..(a few arrows) and a bunch of arrows a couple days a week.
nothing safe at 22 yards, if it will stand there and take it like a man.  But most of my big game animals have been shot at around 12 to 18 yards. (a few at 5 yards and a couple at 30)