Trad Gang

I've been doing some reading the past few nights.  Been looking at all the previous posts about the BW KB recurve.  Something I saw that came up repeatedly was that BW's were often described as providing "less than average" performance.
That shocked me.  I use to have a PSA and thought its performance was pretty spectacular.  So, what recurves provide "better than average" performance?

I've owned a bunch including several Widows. The
Hummingbirds I've owned have performed best. I love Silvertips and still have two. My biggest surprise has been the Bear T/D, it does very well and has become my favorite T/D bow.

Marc  would that be a modern bear TD or an older one?

Herb Meland, Pronghorn Custom Bows, builds a better than average performance recurve. Ask Randy, aka Ferret WYO about his latest. If I recall, he said it shot a 500 and some grain arrow at 197, and that is a 57# bow. Herb's "Ferret" recurves are darn nice.

Morrison Cheyenne -- foam/carbon. Brackenbury Quest.

Allan

Check out Blacky Swhwartz bow tests.  He has a web site.  I believe the Predator is one of the fastest he's tested.  A while back, Norb Mulaney found the Fedora 560 to be quite the screamer.  Probably still ranks near the top.

I'm very pleased with my Zipper, and my Holm-Made River Runner. Both bows perform very well. I like to shoot heavy arrows, 575-625 gr from bows that are under 50#'s. 46-49#'s are where these 2 bows fall and they really send an arrow with gusto!!

Toelke and Morrison

Dan Toelke has built a reputation with his D/R Whip longbows but his recurves are exceptional. I personally shoot his longbows but I have owned Dan's recurves to shoot in 3d competition, a one piece Chinook and more recently a t.d. Curlew. I have shot his little 52" Kestral as well and each of them have been beautifully mannered, very fast and like all Toelkes QUIET!

1965 Bear polar. 45#@28" 66" long. That thing shot great even by todays standards.

Bigfoot, Whippenstick, New Morrison, Dryad, Caribows, if performance is judged by very fast.
These bows all are very nice in every other respect too. Judging a bow by every aspect of performance is so subjective and perhaps that is why there are so many opinions.
The first two I mentioned would be very hard to beat in an out and out un biased speed contest IMHO. The new Yeti of Sasquatch Bows is so fast Kirk won't tell his best frineds how fast it is. Lol. However he keeps them in a fireproof shed so they won't burn his shop down.
I am sure I left some really great bows that are super high performance out. Certainly do not take offence if you are one of those bowyers.

God bless you all and Happy New Year, Steve

Have not shot them all, but the best performing I have shot are RER -  I like the retro the best.  Quietest fastest bow I have shot.  The static tip make them real quick.

I've found that individual bows can excel even when identical to other bows from the same bowyer. I haven't owned a ton of bows like some of you but I've had a few.  I have a couple of stealths and both shoot great but I have a 72# that will run 700gr arrows at 200fps and I have an identical Brack Drifter in 72# that runs about 180.

I have shot a few and have also found that bows vari individually. I have my own ideas on best performing and it's not just speed. I love them stable, smooth and easy to shoot above speed. I found, for me, the best performing is my Roy Hall Navajo Chief. There are some faster but I shoot it the best. Mine averaged 187fps through the crono for six shots.

That's my take on the best performing recurve.

Chris

Sixby,
That's part of my point.  I'm not sure what those that made the statements meant by performance.  To me, performance is the entire package.....speed, quietness, ergonomics, draw cycle, etc.
That's what confused me so much about BW bows in general.  I'm a longbow guy who "dabbles" in recurves. Iwas impressed with everything with my PSA except the mass (that's why I got rid of it).

What wapitirod said was true 50 years ago and is still true today.

QuoteOriginally posted by Shedrock:
Herb Meland, Pronghorn Custom Bows, builds a better than average performance recurve. Ask Randy, aka Ferret WYO about his latest. If I recall, he said it shot a 500 and some grain arrow at 197, and that is a 57# bow. Herb's "Ferret" recurves are darn nice.

I thought that the Ferret recurves have not been available for many years, he only builds takedown longbows now.

According to Blacky Shwartz's site, the BW was one of the top 4 performers last time I saw the numbers.  Not sure which model though.  My Predator is a bit faster, but I shoot the Widows better.

I should have mentioned on my Wes Wallace Stealth it's also very quiet and both of my Stealths are great shooters.  There are tons of great bowyers out there but every once in a while they build a bow that my be identical but there is something different about it.  It's kind of like the movie "Winchester 73" and the rifle that was 1 of 1000.

I love how we have these threads pop up about every 3 months.

But apparently nobody here has a scale, and chronograph.

My 60# limbs on my Silvertip shoot arrows that weigh this much
 (http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL152/10882229/20022155/405158426.jpg)
This fast
 (http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL152/10882229/20022155/405158423.jpg)
at my stumpy 27" draw.

My 3D setup, 52# limbs shoot a 480 grain arrow 198 FPS (I didn't take pictures, but I could   :D   )

I've shot a lot of other bows, and get my hands on as many as possible.  I still haven't met a faster, more stable, and quiet bow than a Silvertip recurve.

I second that dan adair

Pittsley's Predator has the whole "package" you are looking for.

Also, don't underestimate the extreme R/D longbows out there. I hear the Toelke Whip is among the fastest. Jason's Kanati is none too shabby either.

Dan Adair, I have a chronograph(Pro Chrono) and a scale(reloading powder scale). And, it's been my experience that the "Shooting Chrony" brand of chronograph gives erratic results that are often at higher speeds than actuality. Not to say that yours is that way but the ones I have seen are inaccurate.

I'm just sayin', not attackin'.    :)

Not sure what BW they were shooting but everyone I've ever shot was superb.

Dan,that's because chronos aren't trad for some reason.I have one and love to use it.I enjoy seeing differences in things.Some are fine in the dark and that's ok by me.I like to play.

I have a KBX and a  PCH II and they are both smooth as silk and whip an arrow as hard and as fast as any I've had.  I also have a Toelke Chinook and a Morrison Cheyenne and they are as smooth in the draw and also whip an arrow.  I'm just partial to BW.  

I believe that it's all in the individual.  That's what makes this sport/hobby great.  There's something for everyone.

I think the best recurve I owned was my Kohannah.    :readit:   Two others worth mentioning are my Check-Mate Falcon and my Mahaska wasn't too shabby either.   :archer2:

Add the Morrison carbon/foam ILF to the list of great performers, but I wouldn't count Black Widows out--there are so many people who shoot and love their BW recurves for all kinds of reasons...and the same could be said of Bob Lee bows and a few others. Year after year, they "bring home the bacon" (and the venison)! That's the true measure of performance, IMHO.

I've owned and shot alot of different bows and the one that surprised me the most was a McCullough Fiftyniner. I've had several of them in different wood combinations but this one was special. Black Glass limbs and 46@28. I could tell it was faster than average so one day out of curiosity it shot it through a cronograph. With an arrow 9 grains per pound at my 30" draw it would consistently hit 200fps. Smooth, well mannered and speed all in one package.

QuoteOriginally posted by Jerry Bellmyer:
Marc  would that be a modern bear TD or an older one?

New Red Stripe, very smooth and has great a "Feel" for me.

I have owned many bows in my search for the Holy Grail of bows. I have sold every bow from other bowyers to concentrate on one bowyer. I wanted to have a familiar feel everytime I picked up a bow. Wes Wallace builds an awesome performing bow weighed by anyone's measure, and at a working man's price. I see beautiful bows everywhere by many. I hear about speed and it usually has some carbon in it. Wes does not use carbon and I believe my B-Model 56" 61#@28" will shoot with the best of them given same specs. Very stable but explosive off the string. Perceptibily more than anything I've shot to date, all with a draw that is very smooth. I have to get my chrono out to see the numbers. No amount of speed can ever replace the confidence stored inside the archer with an awesome shooting/feeling bow and that will always be speculative. My Dwyer is a great Performer, not the fastest but oh so sweet to shoot, light in hand and very deadly weapon. Enjoy the journey, I have. I have only a desire to try a string follow longbow and to build my own bow. I'm learning that it's like chasing after the wind trying to find the "Holy Grail of Bows" so I've learned to be content in my choices and learn to shoot those to the best of my ability. I love the recurve and longbow equally, couldn't choose between the 2 if my life depended on it. As far as recurves go, I'll never part with my Wallace's.

I put all my bows through a chronograph with same weight arrows.  Of course I'm missing experience with many (most) and all longbows.

My top 3 to date are:

-Sasquatch
-Silvertip
-New Bear Grayling Green Super K (big surprise to me)

Most of my bows are VERY close though. At the same draw weight I've found only one that is so much less than the others than it would make a difference and I don't name it because maybe I had a rare dud with that one and some folks love them.

My widows are keeper too.

I just purchased a new to me Silvertip and am shooting 600gr.arrows with authority at around 52#. But I have 20yr. old fedora takedown rc that blows it out of the water at similar specs. The Silvertip is much quieter and comes back smoother than wipped cream though and is much more forgiving!  :thumbsup:

As you can see, not only is "beauty in the eye of the beholder" , but performance also.
Lots of bows mentioned here. Which is a good thing.

My Pronghorn Ferret performs very well.

It really depends on many factors such as tuning and arrow matching.

I have tested several thru chrono and my demands for the bow is as follows:
No handshock
smooth draw
stability
and fast performance.

I have owned several bows and tested them thru Chronos.
My preferences in recurve naming a few:
Black Widow, Silvertip, Hummingbird, Habu bow, Palmer tradslam, Black Douglas Borderbow:

The one coming up as my #1 when all above demands are considered is definitely the Border Black Douglas!
It outperforms the other bows. I got the same speed out of a 42# Border against a 50# Black Widow PMA(same AMO)

But I still love shooting the BW, Hummingbird etc, but today my definitely goto bow is a Border BD or DAS with Border limbs.

In Longbow:
That's easy: Firefly longbows from Jim Jones
They got all above in my demands and are some heavy hitters:)

I have a take down and a one piece from Lewis Hollow and they are both fast. I don't have a chrono,but the one piece seems to be noticeably faster.

As you can see from the above posts... there are many, many really good bows out there.  Smooth, good cast, etc. is subjective and all of us have our little quirks and preferences.  The top ten bowyers probably all put out bows that will shoot within a few feet per second of each other, a negligible amount when shooting.  The key is to get a bow you are confident in, feels good to shoot, and one you will be content in shooting. Enjoy the trip as there are some fine bows out there. There really is no "perfect" bow or "holy grail" of bows for everybody.  You will find one you prefer and it will be YOUR bow... the one you write about on future posts as being superb!

Rer XR static tip

Fast smooth and longbow quiet

I don't own one but I've shot a few Wes Wallace bows and every one is fast smooth and stable. Same goes for Borders. Never shot a bad one.

In my own bows I like Titan III and Morrison ILF risers with Samick BF Extreme limbs. I also like to shoot the old Tice and Watts Spartan Hunters.

Like others have said, I think "performance" is partly about measurable data like chronograph results and partly about less easily measured characteristics like noise and vibration.

I have recurves from Dale Dye, Schafer, Wes Wallace, Blacktail, Robertson, and John McCullough (59'er).  All of them are in the same league for overall performance but I definitely like a couple better than others.  

I would love to have a chronograph someday, more for reloading but it would be fun with the recurves too.  I doubt it would change my mind as far as favorites though.

I have to say that overall my Blacktails are my favorite.  I don't know if a chronograph would show them as my fastest bows, but they   seem a little faster than my other bows with similar arrows, not that it really matters.  They might just seem faster because they have less vibration after the shot.  How each bow ranks in speed is less important to me than the overall shooting experience.  

In other words   all of my bows are fast enough...     ;)

I have owned or shot a lot of bows in my archery life. The best all around bow by a LARGE margin is the Border Hex 6 limb series. They are the fastest , smoothest, and most quiet limbs out there. Everyone that has shot my Border limbs gets a big smile on their face after the shot.

If you ever get to shoot a set of hex 6 limbs , I think you will get a big smile too.

Bill

Speed is nice but if the bow is not smooth and stable it will not be a bow most will enjoy shooting. probably 90+% of the limbs being built will draw around 3# per inch and considered smooth.  In a bow in hunting weight 2# per inch is super sweet. Stability will be determined by design and materials used.

At my draw 31" my widow does well. I just put together a ILF, 17" Morrison riser and Border HEX 6 H limbs. Im very impressed with this set up. I have been hearing very good things about the Dryad ACS recurve limb, When i get a chance i might just pick up a set for the Morrison riser.

After re-reading all the posts, I guess the best performing recurve is the one you personally shoot the best........just my thoughts!!   :thumbsup:    :notworthy:

Rick, It would be nice to have a set of Max1 on that riser.

Toelke Curlew. What a great bow!

I think that  speed in a bow is subjective , unless you are using a meter. I have owned quite a few of the bows listed I personally didn't notice a real difference in speed, and speed is defiantly not the determining factor in keeping a bow. My first criteria for a bow is being able to shoot it consistently. I want to be able to pick up my bow and make good shots after not shooting it for a while, that is what, for me makes a bow a keeper. OK back to the subjectiveness, I have a PSAX and a Tall Tines to my ears and eyes the PSAX is faster and quieter, several folks that have seen me shoot both have the exact opposite impression. They see the TT as faster and quieter. But no matter, I can pick up the PSA anytime and it hits where I want.

QuoteOriginally posted by Shedrock:
Herb Meland, Pronghorn Custom Bows, builds a better than average performance recurve. Ask Randy, aka Ferret WYO about his latest. If I recall, he said it shot a 500 and some grain arrow at 197, and that is a 57# bow. Herb's "Ferret" recurves are darn nice.

DITTO The Ferret is on my list.

Speed is way overrated. Almost all modern day bows are able to send a hunting weight arrow fast enough to hit it's target. But if the "shootability" or the bow isn't great it really doesn't matter how fast it is.
The Blacktail Bows are so well designed that I have found them to have a grip area that provides a consistant reference to the bow. They draw and send an arrow so smoothly and is easy to hold on point.

I have a rather long draw, but a one piece Fedora and a Pittsley Predator seemed to be the fastest I've shot.      Aaron

Thanks for all the responses.   I agree that performance is an individual/subjective aspect.   It seems that, for many, performance is heavily weighted toward speed.  That's neither right nor wrong, just the way some measure performance.

My thoughts at this point are to test drive a KB.  

Thanks again,

It depends on your definition of performance. My Stalker hybrid with the static limbs shoots compatible to most (173 with a 650 grain woodie 55@29) but I like my bows quiet and dead in the hand with a grip that molds to my hand and puts it in the same place every time. My Stalker is that bow. The quietest recurve I've ever not heard!!

Those Max1 limbs turn me on!

I have been shooting my 68# at 31" Black Widow PMA with 800-grain arrows, and I've been shocked at how fast those heavy arrows fly.  I make very little adjustment for distance when flinging arrows, and the arrows really rip.

Chronograph?  Probably never.  Does +/- 5 feet per second really matter anyway?  I compare bow performance by the Blacky Schwartz reviews.  Same methodology, same machine, same tester... and done objectively, rather than subjectively.

If someone starts turning out bows that Blacky tests at 225 fps (Kirk?    :eek: )  , I'll prick up my ears.  But for the time being, I have no interest in blowing a bunch of money running through bow after bow after bow, looking for Miss Universe.  I sometimes wonder if our bow mentality is the same as the Hollywood-marriage mentality, where someone finds their "perfect match", only to be divorced in 2 years and playing the field again... and again... and again... looking for perfection that will never exist.

Recurves that perform better than average...
If it's a sweet anchor that feels like a release leading to a very accurate short bow, than I'd say Whisperstik Mojostik. At it's peak it feels incredibly smooth. I'm not sure it's setting any speed records around 185 with an 870gr arrow, but it's quick and quiet.
If it's speed, then I like the Bama Expedition. Yes it's an RD longbow, but mine slings an 850gr arrow over 200fps. It's a fun bow to play with.

I love my whisperstik mojo recurve, for me its the best fit

QuoteOriginally posted by Bowbldr:
Rick, It would be nice to have a set of Max1 on that riser.

Yes indeed it would!!!

QuoteOriginally posted by Bowbldr:
Rick, It would be nice to have a set of Max1 on that riser.

Yes indeed it would!!!

For me, a few real good performers in a recurve that come to mind is a Zipper SXT, RER Arroy and a Predator.

By the way, I have always wanted to try a Silvertip, maybe someday.

Hoyt Buffalo Bow

I don't marry my bows and for sure there is room for improvement in bow design. Probably should say in bowyer design LOL.
At least in my case.

God bless you all, Steve

Great Plains SR Swift is one of the above average recurves.

I have never met a bowyer that told me another bowyers bow willbe noticably faster than his.
So ,by most bowyers veiw,every bow is average.

Martin Hunter..........

Overbo:I have never met a bowyer that told me another bowyers bow willbe noticably faster than his.
So ,by most bowyers veiw,every bow is average

True We have never met. Go back and read my post. I do not view speed as the ultimate criterion of performance. Speed is good but not without workmanship. smoothness of draw and shot. accuracy . stability. and all the other attributes that make a great bow. I listed several bowyers that have accomplished this and I am sure there are a lot of others.
God bless you all and have a great new year, Steve

Steve, I believe there is a ton of good bowyers out there, a good amount of great ones. Too many for me to shoot and enjoy in my life. I really like what I'm hearing and seeing with you and Kirk. I've been very good to myself by abiding in my decesion to learning to be content with what I have and not spending money and time chasing the wind. You guys have been pushing alot of buttons with my curiosity from the bows you have been building. The one that really has my desire is the Frontier "66". I want to feel that bow shoot. Seems like it would fit "Me" well. Lord willing, one day. Keep up the good fight!

Of the bows I've owned the RER and Predator recurves are very fast but are not my favorites.

My favorites are built by Mike Steliga who's company is Bruin Custom Recurves. Fast enough and suit me.

The "Best" "Better Than Average" Recurve in the performance department I have owned is a Bear TD Riser with Border Hex 6's.

There are several things that make the "best" and probably the first would be grip, if it don't feel right everything else suffers from that. next would be the feel of the drawing of the limbs to your liking. And you have to be able to shoot it, meaning a stable limb. Speed is nice but being able to shoot it accurately is more important. That being the guide lines, There are many different bows and bowyer that will work great for everyone.
So there really is no one "Best" recurve or longbow built. A lot of really fine bows being built, but what you feel is the best may feel like crap to someone else.

QuoteOriginally posted by threeunder:
Thanks for all the responses.   I agree that performance is an individual/subjective aspect.   It seems that, for many, performance is heavily weighted toward speed.  That's neither right nor wrong, just the way some measure performance.

My thoughts at this point are to test drive a KB.  

Thanks again,

When I first saw your thread title, I thought Black Widow comes right to the forefront so I'll post & offer that recommendation! Then I read your interpretation of past historical threads & comments about Black Widow bows to be "Below Average" and I thought wow, couldn't be further from my experience & overall interpretation I get from other's posts. In terms of engineering performance, I think Blacky does a great job evaluating bows and sharing the speed, efficiency rating, and draw/force curve for comparison.... That's a great place to look & consult if you're in to such things... :-) The Black Widow Bows are definitely way above average and the Black Widow Company & folks that run it are second-to-none!!!! I've shot a lot of bows in my day, some that many say are the "best ever" only to be left reassured that Black Widows are without compromise... That's not to say there aren't some sweet alternatives out there, and someday I may own one, but I can say with all confidence that Black Widows are "Above Average"... I just recently got a new "Dream Bow" and couldn't be happier with it! I invite you to read about my dream season with it, here's the link :  http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=123089#000000

If you can make it to Kalamazoo Expo, it's a great place to shoot alot of bows, including Black Widows. I highly recommend test driving the KB!

Dan Quillian canebrake is the fastest recurve bow I've ever shot....really fast

WOW   It keeps going on and on and its STILL SUBJECTIVE !!!      
   Speed is important  for sure, BUT its not the ultimate To have a VERY FAST BOW  and now have a great grip, and have it stack, and have  the shelf cut wrong and Etc and etc.  It will never shoot To WHERE you want it !!!       Speed is only taking you so far Performance is SOOOOOOOOO Much more than speed .  NO One YET has come close to 300 FPS   and PROBABLY WONT  in a  Trad design and that is ONLY   LESS than 1/3rd the speed of sound   so IF your figuring that Speed cuts down the STRING DUCK  of a deer ( or any other big game animal ) WELL your just flat out wrong!   NOW speed DOES  help in trajectory and there fore extends the PRACTICAL range of shots SOME WHAT   > but so does PRACTICE  !

KAZ : , but I can say with all confidence that Black Widows are "Above Average"...

And you would be right. they have excellent looks, quality workmanship, good speed and excellent service Definately above average


God bless you , Steve

I do understand Sixby,
By my post I meant if you shoot most recurves side by side at bowhunting range(25yrds or less),it'll take at least 20fps difference to see a difference and I/m being conservative.As we all know most recurves are w/in 10 or so fps of each other.

I'd be willing to wager that if you put every recurve made by all the top bowyers and conducted a controlled test that there ain't 10 fps difference between the lot of em.

It means squat.

Otto:I'd be willing to wager that if you put every recurve made by all the top bowyers and conducted a controlled test that there ain't 10 fps difference between the lot of em.

It would be interesting to find out HUH?


Happy New Year everyone and God bless you all in the coming year in all good things, Steve

Here's an interesting test dividing fps by draw weight for a dozen contemporary recurve bows using a 520 gain arrow.


   http://www.bobleebows.net/tests_bowhunting_speeds_fastest.html    

They vary about 30 fps.  

Interestingy, if you take laminate recurves from the 60's you'll be in the same ranges.  Modern strings add 10%.

Also amazing - were worried about these returns and I've had my 1.8L Turbo VW up to 212 fps.

I've been fortunate enough to try a lot of bows. This has been mentioned before, but I have found that a particular bow seems to be more important than a particular brand. They found the same thing to be true with military rifles. Test a thousand M-1's or M-14's and you will find one that will shoot noticeably better than the others.

If you buy a bow and it meets all of your expectations, then you are truly blessed. I have found that about one out of four bows I have bought has done this for me. I have bought quality bows and have known after less than a hundred arrows that they weren't for me.

If this happens to you, don't be afraid to sell the bow. You will get most of your money back, and hopefully the person you sell it to will see something in the bow that you didn't.   The flip side of this is that there are a lot of quality bows out there. After buying and selling a lot of bows, I have about 20 bows in my stable now, and there's not one of them that I really want to sell, except that I can't justify accumulating any more, and feel like I have to sell one if I want to buy a new one.

Grayling Green Super Kodiak (Gainsville)45#/500gr. Cron. at Denton Suprised the heck out of me.

There is so much wrong with the methodology of the Bob Lee test I wouldn't know where to start. Huge difference in bow weight but all shooting same arrow weight. Hand drawn to a mark on the arrow. How long did the shooter hold anchor? Did he creep before the shot . ect ect ect.;

Here is the problem, all this bad info goes public and suddenly a certain bow or bowyer is building the best and fastest bow on the market plus its the most efficient bow made.

It may actually be true that it is but not established by any info gained from that type of testing.

God bless you all,
Happy New Year , Steve

QuoteOriginally posted by Otto:
I'd be willing to wager that if you put every recurve made by all the top bowyers and conducted a controlled test that there ain't 10 fps difference between the lot of em.

It means squat.

I'll take that bet...  Because I already know the answer.

From what I've shot, with more arrow weight spread than what AMO would dictate, and at my 27" draw (mostly with a Damascas glove) it's not uncommon to see 20-30 FPS between makers.

The only recurve I've seen shoot as fast as a Schafer is a Black Widow.  I've spent time with Toelke's, Dale Dyes, all the production makers including Hoyt, Bears Paw, Yellowstone, Robertson Stykbow, and I shot the hybrid Zipstick one piece LB.

I found the three BW takedown recurves I tested to all be noisier and generally more rude than Schafer recurves.  I've chronographed 6 different 60# Schafers, with pretty much everything you could imagine for strings (of modern material) and they were all within a few FPS of eachother.  They all had clear glass over veneers too, and I'd LOVE to shoot one with black Super E glass just to see what it'd do.  Robertsons get my attention too.  The 61# one I played with was in the high 180's

Anybody wants to send me a bow to chronograph, I'll do it for the fun of it.  If I ever find a faster, more stable, more forgiving, and quieter bow than a 'Tip, I'll be writing a check the next week  :)

Another poster said something about Shooting Chrony brand chronographs.  I used to have an Oehler 35P until I shot it with and AR15.  My hunting buddy has the same chrono as mine, and early on chronographing bows and rifles we used to run the two of them in tandem.  Neither chronograph ever varied 2 FPS from the other when testing a bow indoors under artificial lighting.  I've long gave up that practice.

Chronographs tell no lies...  It's a very real measure of "horsepower" for bows.  They can hurt a lot of guys egos.

Oh, one last thing....

Fred Bear was right.  In all the years I've been playing with bows, and chronographing.

60 Lbs is definitely where the returns begin to diminish.  Up to 60# the gains are pretty linear, beyond that, you're pretty much just beating yourself up to be cool.

My old 77# limbs on my 'Tip shot 580 grain arrows 201 FPS at my draw...  Tell me WHY I'd still use those over my 60#ers???   :D

During the decades I have collected and shot with Traditional gear, I have enjoyed owning and shooting bows made by most of the great names in Custom Built bows..

I love my Kwky Styks, TT's and Schafers..

However, I have never been overly impressed with the 7 or so Widows I have owned over the years when talking performance...

That being said... Bob Morrison has consistently built the "Highest Performance  Bows" I have, and have had in my collection.  :archer2:  

Gene

Oh, one last thing....

Fred Bear was right. In all the years I've been playing with bows, and chronographing.

60 Lbs is definitely where the returns begin to diminish. Up to 60# the gains are pretty linear, beyond that, you're pretty much just beating yourself up to be cool.

I knew it!!!! I have always believed in a point where the poundage would reach a point of deminished return. Thank you Papa Bear! You finally settled this in my mind. :)

My top performer is a Sasquatch built for me by Kirk this past summer.

I've hunted with a different bow each of the past three years:

-2010-The Stick by Strickland
-2011-Habu
-2012-Sasquatch

Who knows what 2013 will be? I did start shooting my Tip the past few days but I fear it is about 3-4 pounds light for what I have in mind this year.

Dan I recently chronoed my 62lbs Tip against a 60lbs Habu and the Habu shot the same arro 3-5 fps quicker.The Habu is more behaived in the hand and every bit if not more quiet.
My Tip(wich I love)isn't FF like the Bu.

Overbo: then if the Tip were fastflight and 60 lbs instead of 62 the two bows would pretty much be equal shooters speed wise. Is that how you see it?

Bowild: There are certain bows you must leave out of this conversation. Not fair to interject Sasquatchs

God bless you all, Steve. Oh and happy New Year.

Most all are values reported by Blacky and using a 5 fps reduction to account for finger release average.

Note: there are possibly a couple that were obtained from Pete's World.


Recurve Bows...............................................................Length...Drw Wt.......FPS....Arrow Wt.....GPP
               
Hummingbird Bamboo Kingfisher T/D Recurve...........60..........47.5..........180..........426..........8.97
Fox High Sierra T/D Recurve............................................60..........53.0..........185..........477..........9.00
Bob Lee Thunderbolt Recurvebow..................................60..........52.0..........186..........468..........9.00
Black Widow SA V Ironwood T/D Recurve...................60..........52.0..........187..........468..........9.00
Black Widow SA III T/D Recurve...................................60..........52.0..........182..........468..........9.00
Morrison Take-Down Recurve.........................................58..........52.5..........187..........473..........9.00
Dalaa T/D Recurve.............................................................64..........53.0..........189..........476..........8.98
Predator 'Classic'..................................................................60.........50.5..........193..........454..........8.99
Bob Lee  'Hunter Bicentennial Elite'.................................60..........50.5..........188..........453..........8.97
Great Plains Swift 'SR Swift Black Hawk'...................58..........50.0..........188..........447..........8.94
Black Widow 'PAX' (tulip wood).......................................60..........50.0..........189..........452..........9.04
Black Widow 'PCH' (Braz Rosewood/Tiger Mrytle)...58..........50.0.........189..........450..........9.0
Dryad ILF 15" riser Xtra long ACS RC Static............62..........42.6..........193.........384..........9.0
BW KBX..................................................................................58..........50.2..........187..........452..........9.0


Longbows and Hybrids....................................................Length...Drw Wt.......FPS....Arrow Wt.....GPP   
La Clair Super Shrew Limited Longbow #25..................58..........53.0..........181..........477..........9.00
Acadian Woods Treestick T/D Longbow...........................62..........54.0..........181..........486..........9.00
Fox Reverse Handle Fennic Fox Longbow........................60..........52.0..........176..........468..........9.00
Hornes Brush Bow T/D.........................................................60..........45.5..........182..........408..........8.97
BW PL X Birdseye Maple......................................................62.........50.5..........185..........457..........9.05
ACS All Carbon Extreme.....................................................64..........47.0..........195..........420..........8.94
Centaur Carbon Elite Longbow...........................................60..........51.0..........190..........457..........8.96               
Tomahawk Diamond Series T/D Thunderstorm...........62..........53.0..........181..........477..........9.00

Exactly Sixby

The statics seem to be great performers, Stalkers, Dyrads and RER bows all use that style as an option and you'll never hear a bad thing about them.
Also if you don't mind an ILF style I hear good reports on the DAS bows that 3rivers do.

Even the above info that Friend posted has variances in GPP and draw weight, so we aren't comparing apples to apples.  It does show, however, how close in performance a lot of bows are.
My Predator is slightly faster than my Black Widows, but I will always shoot my Widows when hunting, just because they shoot better for ME.  The next guy may shoot something else better.  I would pick a few and shoot them, then consider durability, warranty, aesthetics (you gotta LIKE the bow), and grip.  Regardless, you should try and shoot several to avoid wasting time and money buying/selling bows you discover aren't "the one" for you later on.
My newest Widow is the quietest recurve I have shot... why? I dunno. Same veneers, same lams, same weight as my other, same string,except for length of the bow. You could shoot five Remington 700's in the same caliber and they will all shoot a little different and prefer different loads (like the above poster stated). I suppose bows are the same way.

There is alot of great bows out there and i believe alot of it comes down to personal preference.
Worrying about the speed of a recurve is like what Larry the Cable Guy says "wiping before you poop, it doesn't make sense. If i was worried about speed i'd still be shooting my compound, hell your talking 100 ft per second over recurves.
To me i love traditional for the simplicity of it...focus, pull back,and follow through, how simple is that?
I have probably 10 top name custom bows and like them all for some reason or another and if i had to stay with one well lets say the freezer would still get venison every fall. To me with recurves to gain one thing is usually a trade off for something else, by this i mean some of my bows that are faster are also a little tougher to pull. Also grip and asthetic are more important than speed, how can you not be taken by some of the beautiful wood grains from some of these bowyers, they are truley works of art.
To me, i look for the bow that has a balance of it all, looks, smooth, pointability, and quietness. And for me my Tall Tines does that right now, it has the looks feel and smoothness along with great traditional speed.
Roger Rothhaar is the man who got me into traditional and really was my teacher and mentor (still), had a quote that went sometghing like this "When I grab my bow, it's like shaking hands with an old friend".
Thanks my Friend

George

I think it is the best bow that fits. I have a short draw length and don't mind my bows being pretty quick. Thanks Dan Tolke I have three of his 52" kestrals. They seem to have it all stable,quiet, feel good in the hand, craftsmanship and speed. Often we get caught up in it thinking there is a better bow out there, maybe its right in our hands!!

Black creeks, of course!    :archer2:

Zipper!  On top of being a great performing bow, Bill's customer service is second to none.  Great guy to buy a bow from.  I've shot em all between owning them and shooting them at shows.  My SXT, 64" carbon foam limbs, 57# at my draw length, 550 gr arrow, 203 fps. My 60" SXT limbs scale out right at 60# at my draw and they shot the same arrow at about the same exact speed +/- a few fps depending on my release.  I think my release is just smoother on the LB limbs.  The curve limbs shoot a 635 grn arrow at 178 fps, haven't shot a heavier arrow through a chrono with the LB limbs.

I have a Wes Wallace Mentor that has impressed me.

Pound for pound, dollar for dollar, I think a Pittsley Predator is the best value out there. About half the price of a Widow, and just as fast, maybe faster. Shoot one. Your question may be answered.

I like to shoot alot of different bows but some bows dont appeal to me or the grip isnt right or the length is either to short or long. Thats why I go to ETAR you can shoot alot of different bows on the market and see which bow fits me. Thats where I found the bow for me and thats my Bob lee. Thats why I have three of them, the grip just melts in my hands and there smooth and plenty fast for me to shoot whitetails 25 yards and under. Thats just my opinion, you can go nuts trying all these awesome bows on the market, we have the best bowyers on this site and everybody can find a bow that suits his style. God bless

The best all-around performer I've found is my old Deathmaster, but I've only pitted it against my 95' Howatt Hunter and a 76er. The poor 76er didn't stand a chance, but it is a great performer in its own right. A real shooter! It's just no speed demon. When I get the Hunter set up better, it should be closer to the Deathmaster.

Joe

QuoteOriginally posted by stagetek:
Pound for pound, dollar for dollar, I think a Pittsley Predator is the best value out there. About half the price of a Widow, and just as fast, maybe faster. Shoot one. Your question may be answered.

How was the Predator in terms of hand shock and shot stability?  A common compliant is the grip. Do you find the grip uncomfortable or too thick?

Native, I don't feel much if any hand shock. The grip is wide. I happen to like that, some don't. But, I'm told Ron and Mike will change the grip to your liking.

Bob Morrison is really onto something with the new MAX I limbs. I've been at this since the mid 50's. Shot a lot of bows. Owned a lot of bows. My favorites were Groves, Heritage (Rocky Miller), DAS with Win&Win limbs, and now the MAX I limbs on my DAS. They are user friendly and have all the variables I like in a  hunting bow.  Short length, speed, very stable and accurate, quiet and smooth drawing. I would say that the Border HEX 6 and BB2 limbs I had were sensitive and noisy. Widows were on the average side for me but shot well. I really liked the Stalker long bow I had but I am not a longbow guy...but they are very nice to shoot.

Pittsley Predator has got to be tops in smotthness of draw, no handshock, and speed. Black Widow a  close second.

Started counting the answers, and run out of fingers in the first 1/2doz posts. For me it's the my 2 S-Tips, The grip , no handshock, quiet, smooth and as quick if not quicker then most. Sold a Blacktail and a Voodoo Kustom and got another one coming. Also have Border HEX6-W limbs on one of Bob Morrison's 17" wood risers, mine are quiet, no handshock, stable and smooooth and they really smoke on arrow.

QuoteOriginally posted by stagetek:
Native, I don't feel much if any hand shock. The grip is wide. I happen to like that, some don't. But, I'm told Ron and Mike will change the grip to your liking.

Thanks. I was looking at hunter's niche webpage and got to say I like the look of the bow too. Got to get me one of these some day.

Im going to throw in the Hoots 54" recurve super smooth at my 28 1/2 inch draw and very fast with excelent cast better than my MOAB.

Perform "better than average"

Bruin Huntmaster

Who needs fastflight, With B-50 Dacron it is the quietest, quickest,  most accurate recurve I have ever shot. My other bows are sold or for sale.

I shot a Bob Lee Hunter take-down this past weekend at the Baltimore shoot that may have been smoother. I would have to shoot them side by side to know for sure.

Have owned it for 8 months. Wll post a review sometime this summer.

Morrison Cheyenne
Black Creek Banshee
older= Hoyt Huntmaster

Neil Jacobsen at Bears Paw just finished a new Carbon Hunter recurve for me.  It is third BP I have owned since 2001.  It is the finest shooting recurve I have yet to heft. Smooth as butter and faster than any bow I have drawn. Neil has mastered the carbon market and is producing top shelf work. The man is also the quietest and most unheralded modern bowhunter around.  His trophy room is superior.

Let me start this off that I am not a recurve shooter. I have a few old bear recurves on the rack and have owned a few customs over the years but my love is with the hill style longbow. Long story short I ran into Kirk from Sasquatch Bows at the Baltimore shoot. He had in his hand one of his new static tip recurves. I believe it was a 62" bow and 47 lb. I asked him if I could shoot a few a few arrows threw it in wich he handed me the bow. I had a few carbon express 150's that weighed about 500 grains. All I can say is Wow. That bow shot flat and I was slapping arrows. But what really surprised me was how quiet the bow was with those static tip limbs. If I was in the market for a recurve I would look no farther. Keep up the good work Kirk. God bless, Scott.

:confused:

Palmer carbon not the fastest but it shoots half dollar groups at 23 yards....... Speed doesn't kill, accuracy and sharp broadheads do.

QuoteOriginally posted by Otto:
I'd be willing to wager that if you put every recurve made by all the top bowyers and conducted a controlled test that there ain't 10 fps difference between the lot of em.

It means squat.

You want to put a $1000 on that bro? i'll take that bet...   :bigsmyl:

I am more of a longbow shooter but do have a few recurves.My best performing recurves are my Dryad Orion with ACS RC limbs,Zipper ZSR with carbon & foam EVO Accel recurve limbs,Predator Classic and my Hoyt Buffalo.All great shooting bows,hard to pick my favorite.All are 62" except my Zipper ZSR it is 58" and just flat out shoots great.

:biglaugh:  
Well.....at least we got it narrowed down   :laughing:

Sounds like all recurves are above average.  That is an impressive mathematical feat.   :dunno:   threads like this are exactly why we need 3rd party bow chrono data.  Speed is the only bow characteristic that can be accurately measured.

I have owned a lot of bow in my nearly 60 years of archery and I believe the best performing bow I have ever shot was the RER Arroyo.

This thread is an awesome indication of how great it is to be a recurve shooter right now! While I am a huge fan of vintage recurve's from the end of the 50's to about 70-71, the so called "Golden Age" of the recurve bow; it is becoming apparent to me that the real golden age is right now! In terms of research, numbers of bowyers, and just information, there is so much going on right now...

Is it true that it is impossible to build a bow the same way twice, make an exact twin ? If that is true then how can you really make a fair comparison. I can agree that some models may have a better performance history but if variation of results exist in the same model is it fair to even try and compare ?
What I am trying to stumble about is, I won't name names or models but I had at one point 3 recurve bows same make, model, length, weight within a couple of pounds. One seemed (I don't have scientific data) to hustle and arrow with a bit more authority than the others. Limbs were wood core and glass, no carbon or foam. Can there be a significant variation in the wood/glass used to have a similarly made bow perform noticeably better ?

Speed means squat if you can't hit where you should....I'll take a good hit at 150 to a 200 miss.

Big Foot Sasquatch followed closely by a Brandon Stahl Ultra Delight.

I haven't read every word on this thread, but there have been enough threads like this over the years that the details don't change much. Fact is, and I apologize if this has already been said here, that the performance of a bow, given simiarities in design, woods and skills of the bowyer, is a synergistic product not only of the bow but the shooter, string, arrows, fletching etc. In other words, if the setup shoots for you, then it's the best there is. There are so many good bows out there now that I do not see how anybody can single one out as the best, except to say "for me, and my style, and to my eye, this bow is the best". Right this moment, the recurve for me is a Morrison ILF with carbon/foam limbs, with an SBD string, carbon arrows, feathers. End of rant.  :deadhorse:

Amen to that.

Speed and performance are very important to me because I am not spending an average of 800 to 1200 dollars for an "average" bow. Top performing bows from the major bowyers are not cheap, so, why would you settle for average?

The best shooting recurve I've shot in terms of speed and draw cycle is my new Northern Mist Ottowa.It's amazing how smooth it draws yet still shoots a fast but quiet arrow.
Another very fast(not real quiet) bow I owned was a Martin Hatfield.
I shot a friend's Habu that was a smoker,too.

I have owned over 100 different customs and tested a lot of them. For me the absolute 3 fastest were an RER Arroyo, Border Hex5-Hs and Caribow Tuktu EX all static tips. Now the best shooter I ever owned was a Norm Johnson blacktail, good speed, quiet and I shot it very well! Shawn

One bow type that quite often gets over looked is target bows. We compared a Hoyt Olympic style bow to our recurves, mine a Bear takedown, and found that it shot 2016s faster than any of our heavier bows.  I took a few shot with the heavy target bow and found that with a bit of stabilizer removal, it handled much like my 64" takedown.