I had a fella newly arrived to the sport write to me and ask about hunting with a self bow. He was all excitement until he got on a bulletin board and had everyone caution him about his responsibilities to the animals and how he needed to acquaint himself with his weapon thoroughly before going afield. He was deflated thinking of maybe having to spend a year or two in practice before hunting game. Here is my response to him. Provided here for your debate.
"BS, Fred. Don't let the ethics police stand in the way of your excitement. There's no joy found standing in front of MacKenzies for a year, making yourself a wreck of anticipation and doubt, measuring groups and wondering if they are good enough, so that you can't make a shot when the time comes.
"Practice, yes, but get some sharp broadheads and go hunting. Do it as soon as you can legally. Get some bleeder blunts and go small game hunting. Do it as soon as you can. Let the arrows fly on the small game. Rabbits and squirrels are easier to hit than deer, moose and elk. When you are hunting something larger, just wait until you get close enough so you know you can't miss. Work to get that close.
"Your first moment of truth may require an animal with a death wish, one that wants to impale itself on a nocked arrow, but such animals exist (perhaps not for long, but they do exist). As you grow in confidence, extend your range. Exercise discipline, not abstinence. That's the bedrock of this sport."
Good advice, Dean. I am of the mind that yes, he does need to acquaint himself thoroughly with his weapon. Targets are necessary, but going afield with blunts for stumps, hanging water jugs and the like are more fun and realistic practice, and will allow your friend to realistically assess his abilities and limitations.
This way, when he does find himself in the vicinity of an edible critter, he will be able to judge for himself the odds between success or a lost arrow. Small critters are more of a total win or total miss proposition, and are a wise point of entry into the "killing fields".
Killdeer :thumbsup:
Cheers! I can only echo this sentiment. The joy is the hunt, not "sticking" one. Just wait until the moment is right to let your arrow fly.
Amen brother Dean.
A few years back, I was recovering from shoulder stabilization surgury. I could barely lift my right arm above my head. I had my surgry on Sept. 8 (2001) and by the end of October, I was going buggy sitting on the couch. I HAD to get in to the woods. With selfbow in hand, I told myself that I would only take a shot 10 yards or less since I had not been able to shoot more than a hand full of arrows since my surgury.
I was sitting there and saw a doe feeding in a soy bean field with a pretty stout 10 pt. watching her every move. I was thankful for the experience and when she went back in the thicket and the buck followed, I figured I should make myself scarce since the wind was blowing right at them. Just as I was getting ready to sneak out, she re-appeared and was walking right toward me!! I let her pass and the buck, right behind her met my broadhead at less than 5 yards.
As a newbie myself, (though not the one that contacted you), I appreciate the advise. I'll be starting my hunter ed course in a couple weeks, and will go through the bowhunter ed course a week after that. This combined with the fact that I've been practicing for the last couple years with bows that I've made will hopefully give me some luck this fall.
Thanks!
"just wait until you get close enough so you know you can't miss. Work to get that close."
Its that simple(or hard). If everyone did that, the world would be a more ethical place. Where's the debate?
I concur!!
Scott,,, :readit:
Sometimes I can group super tight at the butt, sometimes not..but almost everytime I shoot at deer; it is in the goodies!
There is a range that ANYBODY can put an arrow in the chest of a whitetail.
If in doubt, wait till it or you gets closer.
:)
I say get out and your instinct will take over.
;)
BD
Many's the child that's stood before a target piling arrows deep and tight in the very center only to fall apart in the presence of game.
Nothing prepares you for shooting at game as does shooting at game.... any game!
The will to win... will win. :thumbsup:
As always, great advice Dean. I also believe that Wallcrawler hit it on the head when he said that "The joy is the hunt, not 'sticking' one." My wife jokes that I VERY seldom bring home a deer, but my response is always the same, "I am the most successful hunter that I know." Like most hunters I assume, I have had more times afield without seeing a single deer than times that I got a shot. Every minute I spend hunting is a successful minute in my life. To me, it is all about the chase and the way it makes me feel.
"Fred" If you are reading this post, good luck and quit reading...get in the woods!
you got that right Charlie... uh huh uh huh! :readit: :bigsmyl:
Here...here, Dean of the yellow bow wood. Yer' startin' to get feisty in your older age 8^). And....I'll second the amen to that.
Thanks for posting that,although I'm not a newbie I needed to hear that.
It is passion and excitement that connect us to our arrows. Self doubt and over cautiousness finds expression in our arrows too.
You gotta start somewhere. The things that draw us all to this "sport" are the same with or without experience or skill. Its just that when we become experienced, we have learned how to enjoy it more.
Great advice, Dean all newbies shoot all bow hunters need to spend as much time in the woods as they can.
I would rather be a good hunter an a fair shot.Than be a fair hunter an a great shot.Main thing to remember is its your hunt that your on. Have fun
One paragraph in an outdoor magazine inspired me to jump into traditional archery with two feet. Went something like this:
If you are ready to understand and be content with range limitations. If you enjoy getting close to game. If you want to put the "hunt" back in hunting, than traditional gear is for you. So, if you can keep all your arrows in a pie plate at five yards... Go hunting! Just keep your shots at five yards or under.
Practice and your skill level and effective range will grow in time. But for now... Get out there and hunt!
... mike ...
Dean, I applaud your posting... :knothead:
Anbody ever notice that when they did shoot wheely bows, that after the shot you were thinking: " Man, I coulda' made that shot easy with my stickbow!" ;) :)
BD
i have been hunting since i was 15 now 55 and i am still learning :biglaugh:
Right on the money Dean!!
There is no law that says that you have to shoot when animal presents itself. He should hunt and if he gets an opportunity then that is when he can decide if he will let the arrow fly.
Dean,
I think Maurice Thompson would agree with you. You need to practice, but you need to get out and enjoy the woods. Great thread!
Brad
Yup, great advice. Go hunt, take close shots and kill animals. I have watched very many guys shoot at 3-Ds and everywhere else and a lot of these guys hunt, if ya get my drift. Trust Dean you will do as well as most. Shawn
Well said Dean. Common sense is so refreshing.
Dean who?
Good answer.
Tom....Dean is at his best when he's cantankerous 8^). Come to think of it...he's always at his best.
In the spirit of debate and blunt honesty, Dean...had you left off the first sentence of your quoted response I'd have thought, 'well said!". But frankly, and with due respect, I'd have expected a better lead-in than that opening statement, particularly from a seasoned and well- respected carrier of the traditional torch.
I can't count how many times I've heard the 'ethics police' term used, in condescending ways and with malicious intent here and on other sites, to either belittle a differing viewpoint or cast aspersions towards those who offer those viewpoints. That recurring event confuses and confounds me. With due respect to the right of everyone to have confidence in their own convictions and to voice them freely and convincingly, I would still ask by what right do we take liberties in defending those convictions with ridicule, sarcasm and mudslinging at the expense and reputation of others?
I mean no ill-will towards your intent, you were clearly trying to help the lad. But in re-reading your brief comments from the anonymous bulletin boarders I truly fail to see what response on their part stirred your ire. That the newcomer be accountable for his actions with his newfound weapon? That he achieve adequate knowledge of how to use it effectively before trying to kill for sport or challenge? That a period of practice, testing and self-review might actually be beneficial in achieving his objectives?
Perhaps in the big picture the central message in your response...to hunt for the experience and to gain and grow from that experience...overrides the negative aspects that I take exception to. Clearly, the part about discipline being the heart of the sport is point-on and well said. Still, I have to question whether the young archer went away thinking that its just as important to respect the ideas of his fellow archers as it is to pursue his own desires and objectives. Agreement and support...not always. Respect and tolerance...never questioned.
What we take from and give back to the sport is often what we are taught about the sport by our mentors and fellow archers, both in action AND in word...wouldn't you agree? As such, the impressions we paint of ourselves and those we share the sport with do matter. To the newby I would simply say that not all advice is good advice, but all advice is worth considering.
I can't end without saying I very much enjoy your writings and admire your exceptional skill in crafting selfbows. I hope you can accept this message with the good will by which it was intended...sincere and constructive.
Being a newbie myself this is how I look at it.
A person should be familiar with their equipment (I think that safety alone dictates this). Also, every hunter has a responsibility to the animal that they pursue.
So, it is well within both of those rules to go shooting a lot (small game, stumping, 3d, whatever is helpful and enjoyable). Then, when the person knows their abilities, limitations and understands the safety concerns involved in big game hunting, go for it. Like others said, if your effective range is 5 yards just keep your shots inside of 5 yards.
Small game has helped me a lot. Good practice for spotting game, stalking and a person learns to know what it is like to decide to take a shot that will take a life. I find that my effective range is less on an animal than at a target, not because my accuracy is less, but the additional responsibility presses me to be extra sure of my shot.
Not sure if that really makes sense, but I guess what I am trying to say is that going into the field as a new shooter is only unethical when you are irresponsible. Which is no different from a very skilled shooter that is irresponsible.
Neat discussion, with some input from neat people.
Please remember, TSP, that my comment was a conversational one addressed to a private party. Only afterwards did I decide to share the response. As such, I felt some obligation to quote the response precisely because I spent a paragraph defining its context. Please take it in that context and not as a metaphysical reflection by Ortega y Gasset.
That said, I intended the term "ethics police" in a condescending way. If you know anyone who admits to actually being one, I'll apologize for any slight or injury I caused by treating him like the straw man I assumed him to be. My intention was to remove solemnity from the sport. Not reverence. Solemnity. The kind that immobilizes us, creates a fearful and apologetic approach to hunting. In its place, by swiping at a straw man that exists precisely for the purpose, I hoped to introduce a relaxed enjoyment. Look at it this way: the ethics police took a spill for the sport. I don't think they mind. Matter of fact, since it defines their place and fulfilled their function, they may have felt a sense of accomplishment. ;)
I thought that's why God made pigs. And hickory, come to think of it.
quote:
Originally posted by Charlie Lamb:
Many's the child that's stood before a target piling arrows deep and tight in the very center only to fall apart in the presence of game.
Nothing prepares you for shooting at game as does shooting at game.... any game!
The will to win... will win. :scared: :scared: :scared:
Dean. I hafta agree with you. Get out there and experience the hunt. DOn't shoot till you have a shot. But for sure get out there and gain some experience.
ChuckC
Agree 100% with what you have written. Although I am new this year to a trad bow, the same thought process was what I did with that other kind of equipment. I hadn't planned on hunting that fall (purchased the bow in June), but was encouraged by a mentor to shoot it and if I put self imposed limitations in place, things would be fine. Needless to say, I did a lot of shooting all summer, and in my first season I killed my first deer (a buck too) at 10 feet.
The experiences of being in the woods outside of gun season were alone a magnificent thing, and a successful harvest was icing on the cake.
I hope to re-live this again this year as I take to the woods with a "simple stick and string".
BobW
I have a burning desire to kill something, and eat it. :)
QuoteOriginally posted by Dean Torges:
I had a fella newly arrived to the sport write to me and ask about hunting with a self bow. He was all excitement until he got on a bulletin board and had everyone caution him about his responsibilities to the animals and how he needed to acquaint himself with his weapon thoroughly before going afield. He was deflated thinking of maybe having to spend a year or two in practice before hunting game. Here is my response to him. Provided here for your debate.
"BS, Fred. Don't let the ethics police stand in the way of your excitement. There's no joy found standing in front of MacKenzies for a year, making yourself a wreck of anticipation and doubt, measuring groups and wondering if they are good enough, so that you can't make a shot when the time comes.
"Practice, yes, but get some sharp broadheads and go hunting. Do it as soon as you can legally. Get some bleeder blunts and go small game hunting. Do it as soon as you can. Let the arrows fly on the small game. Rabbits and squirrels are easier to hit than deer, moose and elk. When you are hunting something larger, just wait until you get close enough so you know you can't miss. Work to get that close.
"Your first moment of truth may require an animal with a death wish, one that wants to impale itself on a nocked arrow, but such animals exist (perhaps not for long, but they do exist). As you grow in confidence, extend your range. Exercise discipline, not abstinence. That's the bedrock of this sport."
Lots of kids reading these, so lets keep the language clean please. VM13
You're darn right, sir! If your buddy can get out after some rabbits or something soonish I'd say he's a lot less likely to get bored and switch to something less interesting.
Great advice, I'd say!
Calvin, you are just crude!! :bigsmyl:
Great advice on small game hunting, there's still an element of pressure and excitement there when taking shots at small game that can't be reproduced when practicing on targets. That experience will help later when hunting big game. Plus small game hunting is fun, some of my fondest hunting memories from my teenage years were chasing rabbits with my father and a group of bowhunters.
Dean....I read you little funny remark before another mod pulled it...no worries, and knew exactly what you mean and what you were doing.
I had a laugh over it....and the mod knows as well now.
Carry on my friend! :biglaugh:
QuoteOriginally posted by Charlie Lamb:
Many's the child that's stood before a target piling arrows deep and tight in the very center only to fall apart in the presence of game.
Nothing prepares you for shooting at game as does shooting at game.... any game!
Boy, that's me to a T. :knothead:
start small, hunt rabbits, rocks and what ever to get in the field.
I have to totally agree with Dean.
Interestingly I started trad hunting two years ago but shot for several years prior as I worked my way through whether "I was good enough for this trad hunting stuff" - though the constraint was self imposed. Yet I struggled with all the mental isssues that Dean so wonderfully suggested might occur if the newcomer waits. So right on and re-enforces your answer whether the pressure is precieved from within or a... with - out.
One inference that seems to be seeping into this thread a bit from several others, is that small animals are practice for larger animals. I am sorry if I misinterpreted, but I don't agree with that. Large or small, pig or elk they are all great quarry and all deserve the same personal level of respect for shot selection and such.
- Dave
QuoteOriginally posted by lt-m-grow:
One inference that seems to be seeping into this thread a bit from several others, is that small animals are practice for larger animals. I am sorry if I misinterpreted, but I don't agree with that. Large or small, pig or elk they are all great quarry and all deserve the same personal level of respect for shot selection and such.- Dave
I agree Dave, but I think that what they meant by that is that in big game hunting you may get one, or two, or three shots in a season, while small game hunting you probably get many times that in a single hunt. Hence, more practice in shooting at game. I don't think the practice remarks were intended to give the impression that small game is less worthy of our respect as large. At least that's the way I'm gonna read it until told otherwise.
And Dean...behave yourself! :bigsmyl:
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Mussatto:
And Dean...behave yourself! :saywhat:
Yeah Dean behave already. :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: ;)
You know me Dean. I don't believe in edits (or spell checkers:-). Think quickly, write even faster, and let it hang out there as is for the world to see. Never grammatically correct, and seldom politically correct, but oh so much more fun and entertaining. :)
Would you remind me once again how you got the name Tom Longbo? LOL.
No
I was as proud of my first squirrel with a bow as I was of any deer I've shot. I got him with a hickory selfbow I had made. To think that I had actually hit something that small at 15 yards. In fact, I bragged to anyone who would listen. That shot gave me so much confidence. I still seldom if ever take a shot at deer over 15 yards, but when it feels right , I go for it. If I have to think about it, think about the distance and how I should compensate, I don't shoot, whether it's deer or squirrel.
from my view point i can say without question that i have shot much better at live animals than at targets and 3D critters. maybe it's that i'm more focused when it comes to the real thing. regardless i think a person can get to know his bow in the short time it takes to get it tuned and shooting properly. stump shooting and loosing blunts at small game will help to find the groove needed to shoot larger animals. once you know your effective range the rest will fall into place.
Hunt if you must, as I must. It is a primal drive that will not be ignored. An obsession. All life is sacred - the animal's life big game or small game and your life too. Live it. Get out there. Find your ethics the hard way - in the field.
Shaun, you have still got it!
Had a similar conversation with a young man the other day myself. As already stated, told him the hunt was the joy, not the harvesting of an animal. If you focus so intently on the blood sheding, you will not see all the wonder and beauty around you. Hunting is spiritual, emotional and uplifting. Perhaps that is why native americans held it high. Nah, they like meat as much as me.