I am in the process of tuning arrows for my 43# Grozer Assyrian bow. The arrows I am testing are 29" GT 1535 trads with 85 grain tips. I am left handed and consistently getting the result shown below:
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8362/8297227402_8fa6eac929.jpg)
This indicates shaft weak? However Stu Miller DSC shows that I am grossly overspined!
post images no wider than 640!!!!
[IMG]http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8502/8297235228_d648320222_b.jpg[/IMG]So which is right? I can get straight flight and good groups at 10-15m but shooting from a closer distance around 5m both unfletched and fletched arrows (to a lesser degree) are impacting with nock to the right. Please help. Thanks.
I think they are so stiff you may be getting "kick" off the shelf/side plate.
Can't be too weak, and your first two arrows look good. I shoot 1535's out of all of my bows, they are from 38# to 54#, with a 50 gr. insert and at least a 100-185 gr. point. Do you notice anything with your arrow flight ?
At 15' you are probably still in paradox, and I suspect you are dropping your bow arm/hand so you can watch your arrow?
QuoteOriginally posted by Braveheart Archery:
I think they are so stiff you may be getting "kick" off the shelf/side plate.
That's interesting. I never thought it can work that way. However the release is pretty quiet. I don't really hear the sound of arrow hitting riser. I will test with a 100 grain tip and see if things improve.
Carbon arrows recover much quicker then other types of arrows.I bought some used carbons that were about an inch longer then my draw and were showing alittle stiff.So I added more front end weight and they were showing even stiffer.They were in effect bouncing off the riser instead of flexing around it.I tuned the same spine carbon to my bow but they ended up about 2" longer.This was of a longbow cut off center.I feel on bows cut off center carbon arrows tune better if they are longer.I find on my bows cut off center my carbon arrows are about 2-2&1/2" longer then my wood or aluminum that shoot well out of them.
Assyrian bow? Is that shot off the far side of the bow?
QuoteOriginally posted by gringol:
Assyrian bow? Is that shot off the far side of the bow?
I shot the conventional way. Used left hand finger release placing arrow on right side of riser
QuoteOriginally posted by JRY309:
Carbon arrows recover much quicker then other types of arrows.I bought some used carbons that were about an inch longer then my draw and were showing alittle stiff.So I added more front end weight and they were showing even stiffer.They were in effect bouncing off the riser instead of flexing around it.I tuned the same spine carbon to my bow but they ended up about 2" longer.This was of a longbow cut off center.I feel on bows cut off center carbon arrows tune better if they are longer.I find on my bows cut off center my carbon arrows are about 2-2&1/2" longer then my wood or aluminum that shoot well out of them.
Yes my bow has a primitive grip so its off center and should need a weaker/ longer arrow as you mentioned. However mine are showing weak.
QuoteOriginally posted by njloco:
Can't be too weak, and your first two arrows look good. I shoot 1535's out of all of my bows, they are from 38# to 54#, with a 50 gr. insert and at least a 100-185 gr. point. Do you notice anything with your arrow flight ?
Yes, the fletched arrows flew ok. I was standing slightly to the right of the target. It's hard for me to see the arrows in flight. I took a video to see if they show anything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYyGooccn74
I can't tell anything about flight from your video but it was a good idea, thanks for posting.
You are shooting with a lot of bow cant, which is fine, but that is also helping to compensate for the overly stiff arrows.
Jumping to 100 grains from 85 won't show you anything, you're tuning carbons which tend to be very point weight tolerant. I'd slap some 250's 0r 300's on there and see what happens.
QuoteOriginally posted by Braveheart Archery:
I can't tell anything about flight from your video but it was a good idea, thanks for posting.
You are shooting with a lot of bow cant, which is fine, but that is also helping to compensate for the overly stiff arrows.
Jumping to 100 grains from 85 won't show you anything, you're tuning carbons which tend to be very point weight tolerant. I'd slap some 250's 0r 300's on there and see what happens.
Thanks I will test again with heavier points and no cant. I think Bjorn may be right the arrows may be still in paradox at 6 yards. I will test the un fletched arrows again at longer distance.
Just keep shooting the way you are for now, only change one thing at a time or you'll drive yourself crazy trying to figure it out. :knothead:
Hi Jimmy,
do you have your Assyrian already? Wow, that is fast! Congrats! How do you like it?
Now for the arrows: you are clearly overspined. The most important factor is that your horsebow isn't cut at all. You shoot it over the hand. If you want to calculate with Stu: measure the bow-width were the arrow comes at the riser, divide that by two and put that number (in inches) in the center-cut option box.
From what I see you are useing GT traditional, 15-35, 29", point weight 85 and a standard nock and insert.
That is even to stiff for my 45lbs@29" Peregrine which is almost centercut!
I would leave the 1535 's at 30 inches and would start with a 125 grains fieldpoint and an insert of 20 grains, so a total front weight of 145. You can order weight adapters in weights of 10, 20 and 50 grains. You need a special GT wrench to bold them in the shaft on the fieldpoint. That system works great! Here you have a link to see what I mean: http://www.above-timberline.com/gold%20tip%20arrow%20components.htm You have to scroll to find the components I mentioned.
Hope this helped and tell me about how you like your Assyrian!
I think you are way over spined as well 15' is way to close to be doing bareshaft tuning. Try tuning at 15-20 yards and base your tuning off those results.
QuoteOriginally posted by Flying Dutchman:
Hi Jimmy,
do you have your Assyrian already? Wow, that is fast! Congrats! How do you like it?
Now for the arrows: you are clearly overspined. The most important factor is that your horsebow isn't cut at all. You shoot it over the hand. If you want to calculate with Stu: measure the bow-width were the arrow comes at the riser, divide that by two and put that number (in inches) in the center-cut option box.
From what I see you are useing GT traditional, 15-35, 29", point weight 85 and a standard nock and insert.
That is even to stiff for my 45lbs@29" Peregrine which is almost centercut!
I would leave the 1535 's at 30 inches and would start with a 125 grains fieldpoint and an insert of 20 grains, so a total front weight of 145. You can order weight adapters in weights of 10, 20 and 50 grains. You need a special GT wrench to bold them in the shaft on the fieldpoint. That system works great! Here you have a link to see what I mean: http://www.above-timberline.com/gold%20tip%20arrow%20components.htm You have to scroll to find the components I mentioned.
Hope this helped and tell me about how you like your Assyrian!
Thanks for the tips Ad. I made a mistake of ordering them cut at 29". Will get another dozen uncut ones and tune from there. Though its wierd that i am getting nock right instead of nock left for being overspined. Did you see the video i posted earlier in this thread? I got the biocomposite version Assyrian and I love it. Fast, quiet and shock free. I think this one of the best horse bow designs. Looks beautiful and primitive at the same time. I don't think you can get more traditional than this.
I never lie Jimmy :) , The Assyrian bio composite is one of the best out there!
Your nock right makes sense: probably you are so much overspined, that the arrow bounces of the riser, in stead of bending around it. The bouncing will make the position of the nock inpredictable.
But I would prefer woodies with traditional medieval points and nice barred traditional feathers of 4 "at least for that bow though....
QuoteOriginally posted by Flying Dutchman:
I never lie Jimmy :) , The Assyrian bio composite is one of the best out there!
Your nock right makes sense: probably you are so much overspined, that the arrow bounces of the riser, in stead of bending around it. The bouncing will make the position of the nock inpredictable.
But I would prefer woodies with traditional medieval points and nice barred traditional feathers of 4 "at least for that bow though....
I shot quite a bit at the range today and recorded some video footage. It looks like the arrows flew dead straight out from bow like a rockets from a gunship. I am still going experiment with more tuning to get the bare shaft correct.
I agree on the feathers. I don't know what I was thinking when I selected 3" parabolic. :( Now I feel like re-fletching them all with 4" shield barred feathers.
I was just jokin about the feathers....
QuoteOriginally posted by JamesKerr:
I think you are way over spined as well 15' is way to close to be doing bareshaft tuning. Try tuning at 15-20 yards and base your tuning off those results.
Will try bareshaft again at 15 yards. Thanks for the input!
Just an update on my arrow tuning problem. Everyone says I was overspined and the arrow was so stiff that it showed a false weak reading (nock right for left hand shooter) So I got some full length 1535 with 100 grains tip. This brought my arrow dynamic spine down a whopping 13# from 63.4# to 50.5#.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8219/8419283551_cc73c0cff8_z.jpg)
However I did some test at 10 - 15 yards and getting even worse of a nock right result. The left most arrow is the uncut one with a DS of 50.5# and the rest are 29" with DS of 63.4#
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8087/8419272559_59510eb1fc_z.jpg)
I was wondering if I am going in the right direction and needs another drop in spine. The 29" 1535 when fletched do fly well though as you can see pretty much dead center.
This is difficult to explain, but interesting... What is the width of your riser were the arrow is? 0,5"? Your drawlenght is 28? You are shooting a FF string?
Do you have possibilities to increase your pointweight, so that you have the same dynamice spine for your bow and arrow in the calculator? I am curious to see what happens then. It can also be something in your release or way of shooting.
QuoteOriginally posted by Flying Dutchman:
This is difficult to explain, but intersting... What is the width of your riser were the arrow is? 0,5"? Your drawlenght is 28? You are shooting a FF string?
Yes the riser at arrow pass is pretty narrow. I usually draw 28.75" to 29" for targer recurves but I draw 28" with this bow due to the rated draw length is measured to back of riser for grozer bows and this one has a very slim riser. I am shooting Dacron but its a very skinny 10 strand string by grozer so I used 16 fast flight instead as the speed should be closer to that. I have also tried a 9 strand ultracam with pretty much the same result but with the brace height lower by about 1/4". The ultracam string creeped badly so went back to the stock grozer string.
I did ordered some heavier points but the store left them out when shipping. I tried with both tab and glove, Static release and follow through release, upright bow. Pretty much the same result.
Jimmy,
Based on your second set of arrows it appears that both the fletched and bareshaft arrows from the same set are grouping togeather, and this is fine.
I would go and shoot a group of three arrows each, bareshaft and fletched and see where they group. The most important thing in bareshaft tuning is to get both bareshaft and fletched arrows hitting the same place. If you accomplish this you are fine.
Dont take the calculators values as "Must have" it is a tool to get you close to your suggested setup. I shoot way over spined arrows and they fly like darts.
Check out the Shooters FORM Forum, you can get alot of help and useful info there.
Mike (fellow lefty who strugled with the calculator too)
QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Brockner:
Jimmy,
Based on your second set of arrows it appears that both the fletched and bareshaft arrows from the same set are grouping togeather, and this is fine.
I would go and shoot a group of three arrows each, bareshaft and fletched and see where they group. The most important thing in bareshaft tuning is to get both bareshaft and fletched arrows hitting the same place. If you accomplish this you are fine.
Dont take the calculators values as "Must have" it is a tool to get you close to your suggested setup. I shoot way over spined arrows and they fly like darts.
Check out the Shooters FORM Forum, you can get alot of help and useful info there.
Mike (fellow lefty who strugled with the calculator too)
Thanks for the input. I will check out the form forums
I would take off the wrapped up fletching on the "bare shafts" also. When you add weight to the rear of an arrow you are stiffening the arrow...this will give you a false reading.
Don't worry about nock left or right it is where they are grouping. Unless you are seeing the arrow flying sideways to the target of course.
BTW, just watched your video, nice shooting! Inside the house also.... my wife wouldn't be glad if I did that... I don't hope somebody is holding that camera :)
I am very interested in the results. In the first set-up you have a difference of 27 lbs between bow and arrow. Stu can be a little bit off, but never so much...
I can remember however talking two a guy who was an horse-bow expert, he owned more then 25 and was shooting them real good. According to his experience Stu was too low on most horsebows, making you underspined. But he mentioned 10 lbs or so and now we are dealing with 27...
Crazy stuff...
And indeed, try shooting with real bareshafts. It looks like you wrapped some paper around the feathers and taped them. That might be of infuence too. You never know.
On the other side, when you arrows are doing the job, who gives a heck about it?
spine charts, spine meters, and software "calculators" are guidelines at best. how you shoot, your form, your tackle and all its fine points - all play a role in how the arrow will fly for you. learn to make adjustments in tackle and form until arrows track true.
I finally got the answer. Those arrows were actually underspined. My fletching jig arrived so I stripped of the feathers on the arrows and tested again this time with the "real" bare shaft. The results are the same as with the wrapped feathers. 29" GT 1535 with 85g tip shows only slightly weak. Full length GT1535 with 100g tip showed weaker. However I tried full length GT 3555 with 85g tip which according to DSC will be the most overspined arrow but it tuned perfectly! In the image below the rightmost nock is the full length 1535. Wierd results but gonna try the fletched 3555 with 85g points tommorrow at the range. Thank you to all who replied for your help. :campfire:
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8238/8498586744_4b368b0b73.jpg)
Go on and let us know Jimmy. And let Stu know your results, it helps to get the calculator better.
And remember to take care you nocks fit right before you bareshaft!
Also, judging arrow flight by how the arrow sticks out of the target is problematic. My experience has been that if the arrow hits the target with any lean at all, the target will exaggerate the heck out of that lean, causing you to scratch your head in confusion.
You could be very close to the right recipe with what you have. Try either the shaft planning method with your bare shafts or shoot through some paper. I bet you are a lot closer to correct than you think.
Ad, those results are shot with an 8 strand D10 string with good nock fit.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
Also, judging arrow flight by how the arrow sticks out of the target is problematic. My experience has been that if the arrow hits the target with any lean at all, the target will exaggerate the heck out of that lean, causing you to scratch your head in confusion.
You could be very close to the right recipe with what you have. Try either the shaft planning method with your bare shafts or shoot through some paper. I bet you are a lot closer to correct than you think.
Good point on the target exaggerating arrow lean. I found it not accurate at all if the target is worn so I shoot at an unused spot. Will try some paper next. But at this point I think I am happy. Thanks again for the suggestions.
Tested at the range today. Both the fletched GT3555 and the 29" 1535 with 85g point fly great and group well. Both are very quiet when shot from the bow.
At 15yards
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8107/8500006916_95ac435a15_z.jpg)
Now let see what can I hunt around these parts. :cool:
Good shooting Jimmy. Now walk back to greater distances and see if there is some noticeable difference between both shafts. I test till 50 meters. At bigger distances differences become more evident.
At 15 yards I shoot almost every arrow well :)
You are right Ad. I did shoot abit at 25 yards. The max at my range. But I know my limitations. I am not that good of a shot at anything further than 25yards to reliably tell between the arrows.
Just keep om training at 25 yards and you will be amazed :)
I will. And I can't wait till I get a proper longbow like yours.
I will sell you one for € 2.500,- Delivery from stock! :)