It wasn't too long ago when the majority of custom bows were handmade, and typically by a single bowyer. I cannot tell you how many bowyers I became friends with as a result of ordering a bow and the several conversations that followed, and the several bows that followed. :)
Over the past several years more and more custom bows are being made in part with CNC machines, just like mass produced bows. The advantages are infinately reproducible bows with indentical shapes and predictable shooting qualties. From a certain perspective this may be a good development, from another perspective it is a great and perhaps ireetrievable loss.
I have made it a point to only order bows from single author bowyers who still make their bows without the use of softwear programs/CNC machines. This has been easy for the most part because so many of my bows are selfbows made by the very few bowyers who know how to read and interpret wood, but I also own fantastic glass bows which were handmade.
I would be interested to know which bowyers still make handmade bows. Here are the ones I know of.
Gregg Coffey- Shrew and Java Man
Jerry Brumm- Great Northern
Allen Boice- Liberty Bows
Tom Parsons- Kimsha Bows
John Strunk selfbows
I know there are more. Who would you add to the list that you are absolutely sure make their bows by hand?
Jay St. Charles
Mike Fedora
Dave Windauer at Schafer
Tim Meigs
There are many more
Dave Miller
Chad Holm Holm-made
Jim Neaves Centaur Archery to my knowledge one at a time and how you want it.
St. Joe River Bows:
All hand made, I've watched Tracey and Dave do it. :cool:
Bert frelink, Alberta canada
Steve Turay, Northern Mist
Bill Howland, Brackenbury Custom Bows
Abe Penner, Cari-Bow Custom Bows
Chuck Deshler- Two Tracks
Ben Graham- Hummingbird Bows
Rick Ellis -Striker Bows
Don Reeves- Elkoholic
btw, nothing wrong with Cnc usage. Consistency is a good thing.
James at jd. Berry archery.
Dale Dye
Dale Dye
Ed Holcomb
It's nice that we can get both: Completely built by hand, and CNC assisted builds. At the level of being a customer/consumer, I haven't found any major advantage or disadvantage to either method of bow construction.
Wes Wallace custom bows
Ron King-Fox Archery
Hitman Customs are all hand made bows. There aren't two bows alike other than appearance. I don't even use jigs for sanding, as it's free hand sanding.
Good shooting,
dave
I probably have both kinds of craftsmanship on my racks. I couldn't tell you for sure which are built without any tools and those for which tools were used.
I understand the sentiment but to me it doesn't matter. Personally, I want well-made and don't care what kind of tools are used to get that done.
No CNC here, but I don't have an issue with anyone who does use one either.
BigJim
Interesting thread.
The irony is that neither Bear or Howatt/Martin, two of the largest manufactures of "mass produced" bows, don't use CNC equipment to build their traditional recurves and longbows. CNC's are mostly used by us smaller guys.
Not that it matters, but I'm pretty sure that one or two of the previous bowyers who are listed as building 100% "hand made" bows, actually use a CNC to help build their bows.
Personally, I think that any person who is in the market for a new bow would miss out on some really great bows if they limit themselves to only 100% "hand made" bows. Some of the best quality bows in the world are made with CNC equipment.
This is nothing against bowyers who don't use CNC equipment. I have the utmost respect and admiration for all of them. I've even built them myself the "old fashioned way" for about 16 years, and then another 4 years using a CNC router.
What is a 100% "hand made" bow anyways? A bowyer needs some sort of tools to make just about any type of bow. It doesn't matter if it's great grand dad's rusty pocket knife or high tech CNC router. They're both tools. You need to have hands, skills, and knowledge to use both of them.
You can hand me a bone saw and a scalpel, but that doesn't make me a brain surgeon. I would also need to have the knowledge and skills to get the job done.
Even when a CNC is used to build a bow, there's still a lot of hand work left to be done. The bow doesn't go straight from the CNC into the shipping box and then onto the customer. (I wish it was that easy sometimes though) :)
It's amusing to me how some folks can utilize many of today's modern conveniences and also shun others for doing the same.
How many people here use a washer and dyer to do their laundry? (Shouldn't you be washing them by hand?)
How many have a dishwasher in their kitchen? (Your spouse or children don't count.) :)
How many drive a car to work? (Shouldn't you walk, or use a horse and buggy?)
How many watch television? (Shouldn't you be reading books instead?)
How many own a computer, that you're probably using right at this moment?
These are all "machines" that make modern life more convenient and interesting. There's nothing wrong with using any of them. :)
Brandon,no doubt your bows are flawless,wish you still offered some of your other models. Some guys like yourself use high tech machines to get it done, and some prefer the the older methods. As you stated there is still alot of hand work involved after it comes off the CNC.
Maddog Bows
How do you define "hand Made ". Are you allowed to use patterns for sanding ? Jigs for drilling holes ? These are primitive cnc machines use by most all bow makers.
I would think the only true hand made bows would be self bows .
QuoteOriginally posted by Peckerwood:
I would think the only true hand made bows would be self bows .
X2
Ted Fry - Raptor Archery
Self bows and laminated bows, all individually hand crafted by Ted.
He's a Trad Gang sponsor as well.
I would think the only true hand made bows would be self bows .
Not unless you worked the wood with your fingernails.
Read what Brandon wrote. He is spot on. We all use tools. I use a table saw, a drum sander, a belt sander, a line sander, a couple of bandsaws , several grinders and assorted sanders and drills ect.
There used to be a Korean man that posted that built bows with a hacksaw, a handsaw and a file. He built some really nice bows too. Still, he used tools. He would loved to have the tools that I have and I would love to have the tools that Brandon has ect ect.
The craftsmanship of bows should actually improve using cnc , not deteriorate.
God bless you all and merry Christmas, Maybe he will bring me a cnc. , Steve
QuoteOriginally posted by gregg dudley:
QuoteOriginally posted by Peckerwood:
I would think the only true hand made bows would be self bows .
X2 [/b]
...But was the tree cut with a hand saw :D :biglaugh:
Several years ago I was a full time custom knife maker. I worked with a well known knife maker who taught me how to grind and shape blades and handles and the many steps involved in making a custom handmade knife. I made over 3000 knives in the years I worked there, and had the chance to see how much our customers appriciated our knives.
Because of the community of artists, designers, potters, painters, and craftsmen that being a knife maker brought me into, I grew to appriciate items that were hand crafted and one of a kind.
When it comes to bows I prefer selfbows, but I also appriciate glass bows that have the maximum amount of hand crafted elements, like hand shaped tips and handle sections, with the obvious differences from one bow to the next that come from the human factor. This is certainly true of selfbows and can be somewhat true of glass bow.
When Black Widow started using CNC machines they stopped writing hand crafted on their bows and started writing "precision crafted". Precision is a good thing, but I prefer as many hand operations as possible in a bow, which to my mind infuses a bow or a knife with special, undefinable qualities, hence my original question.
Mike at Maddog bows is one and Mike Dunnaway at Wild Horse Creek bows is another. I own one from each... :)
I completely appreciate Ghost Dog's perspective on this topic.
Truth be told, I think the issue (if there actually is an issue) is one of aesthetics and emotion. Knowing that something is primarily held in the hands, shaped through hand manipulation, and generally takes its form because of a man's hands...that adds a lot of value in the minds of those who value it. Hand-thrown pottery. Hand-blown glass. Hand-made knives. Hand-carved leather. Hand-cut checkering. Hand-engraved jewelry. Hand-painted portrait. The more actual handwork used during the creation of an art form, the (usually) higher its implied value, desirability and price. Not everyone will agree, but history proves it. How many of us own any hand-crafted furniture built by a recognized master artisan? Could the discerning eye find the difference between it and well-built production furniture? Still, the highest quality hand-crafted pieces will...on average...command more money initially, be harder to acquire, are slower to create, and will typically hold their value far into the future...this vs items which received less actual handwork throughout their creation.
For those who really do place a premium on knowing and seeing that a bow was crafted with the minimal amount of automation, there will thankfully always be people out there who persist in doing things in a bit slower and painstaking fashion. These are the bows which typically show the small irregularities inherent in handwork. They may show detailed inlay work or perhaps carving. Their grip could be custom shaped exactly to your hand. For some, it matters knowing that your bow's final appearance and qualities have the maximum amount of human contact invested in them.
Finally: No custom bow is even close to being built by full automation. There is inherently a serious amount of handwork involved in every fine bow built today...CNC or not.
Good to have choices from fantastic bowyers.
Bob, I have admired your taste in bows and especially your beautifully photographed posts of bows and sets with arrows and quivers for years. I have often thought of these posts as a standard to works towards in my bow building.
I know many crafters of self bows. I meet them at MOJam and other gatherings and on line through this and a couple other sites. The Compton gathering in Michigan showcases some of the best in glass bow builders and they are there in person to visit with.
I admire a bowyer who expresses himself in his work, who is humble and who I like personally when I meet them. A few who come to mind are: Ed Scott of Owl Bows, Steve Turey of Northern Mist, Jim Reynolds of Thunderstick and Mike Yancey of Pine Hollow. There are many more builders of incredible and artistic bows that I look forward to meeting along the road.
Thank you for setting the bar high and lets see some more of those inspirational photo posts in the future.
Shaun
Whether it be hand crafting a bow from a stave and letting the nature of the wood determine the outcome......
or laminating all wood bows with various backings.....
or doing footed risers using a combination of composite materials using fiberglass and carbon composites in the limbs....
Regardless of how the joinery is done. There is a skill level required in the art of building bows that is a step above anything I've ever done in my 40 years as a craftsman.
It doesn't much matter if you are using a fancy egg beater or a wooden spoon when mixing up the cake batter.... the quality of the cake requires a perfect blend of spices and knowledge handed down from grandma to make it come out right.
i do all my joinery by hand with the use of power tools at this time. but if i could use a CNC to do my footed riser blocks, i could spend more time doing art work and fine tuning than joinery.
look at the work that goes into building these blocks and sanding the joints to perfection....All the patterns are built by hand, and each lamination needs to be carefully fitted prior to assembly....
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Christmas%20Bows/IMAG0551.jpg)
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Christmas%20Bows/IMAG0553.jpg)
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Christmas%20Bows/IMAG0554.jpg)
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Christmas%20Bows/IMAG0555.jpg)
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Christmas%20Bows/IMAG0560.jpg)
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Christmas%20Bows/IMAG0558.jpg)
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Christmas%20Bows/Myrtle-Macrisers.jpg)
If this isn't considered hand crafted.... i'll eat my hat.... Kirk
QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
Whether it be hand crafting a bow from a stave and letting the nature of the wood determine the outcome......
or laminating all wood bows with various backings.....
or doing footed risers using a combination of composite materials using fiberglass and carbon composites in the limbs....
Regardless of how the joinery is done. There is a skill level required in the art of building bows that is a step above anything I've ever done in my 40 years as a craftsman.
It doesn't much matter if you are using a fancy egg beater or a wooden spoon when mixing up the cake batter.... the quality of the cake requires a perfect blend of spices and knowledge handed down from grandma to make it come out right.
i do all my joinery by hand with the use of power tools at this time. but if i could use a CNC to do my footed riser blocks, i could spend more time doing art work and fine tuning than joinery.
look at the work that goes into building these blocks and sanding the joints to perfection....All the patterns are built by hand, and each lamination needs to be carefully fitted prior to assembly....
If this isn't considered hand crafted.... i'll eat my hat.... Kirk
I appreciate the work of Bowyers.
Kevin, very nicely written post. I can tell that you enjoy writing. And yes, even a bow with a CNC production step still needs the human touch.
Shaun, I had no idea that you were making and selling bows. Where have I been? That Ambush bow is really nice looking. Dean Torges made me a bamboo backed osage Ambush bow. I cannot believe he did that for me. I never told anyone because I did not want people bugging him. I only had to wait three and a half years for it. I also managed at one point to add one of his osage bows to my collection. He built it in the same year his book was published, so it is based on the bow from the book. He sold it to me for reasons that ultimately benefited someone in need. These two bows alone would make an incredible collection.
So yes, I am passionate about handmade bows. When I am shooting a bow a big part of the enjoyment for me is recalling who made the bow, what we talked about, what we laughed about, how they shaped the grip for me, the way they stitched the leather grip, the little differences from one of their bows compared to another.
As I am writing this I am drinking coffee from a mug that a gifted potter friend of mine made for me. I can see from where I am sitting some of my Native American style flutes that are handmade, and a Tom Killian woodblock print of a scene from Big Sur over the mantle. On the end table next to me are three small drinking cups from three different studio potters from England which are seated on a raw edged ash platter with bark intact. I could go on, but you get the idea. I am blessed to have such remarkable things in my life.
JCJ, truly remarkable. Wow.
Doesnt concern me too much what method the bowyer uses to shape the wood. I see a CNC as basicly a time saver and for repeatable accuracy in certain steps of the build.
Like Kirk said, you can start up the CNC and then go work on something else, thats a big plus in a one man shop.
The things that make the difference between a good bow and a great bow are still in the hands of the bowyer, not the CNC.
Eric
Kirk, you are an artist. Your hat is safe.
I use some electrical tools but it's still the "hand and mind" that guides the product.
And I fully agree what Kirk says.
Arnold
James of JD Berry Archery. James has been building custom bows for along time, going on 33 years now. James it a true master bowyer, you can see it in all of is bows. What a work of art. www.jdberryarchery.com (http://www.jdberryarchery.com)
Yeah...y'all better not make Kirk sick! He's building me a Sasquatch. Besides, he needs his hat!
:goldtooth:
All hand work with the aid of tools LOL
More important than all this is the gift from God. He gives inspiration and gifts us with good gifts and He alone deserves credit. At least in the case of this old man.
(http://eaglewingarchery.i8.com/images/moss/mosst2tm-14.jpg)
I admire a person that can take a simple stave of wood and turn it into a beautiful and functional hunting weapon. On the other hand i also admire a person that wants flawless tolerances that are repeatable during their bow crafting process. In either aspect the bowyers mind and hands are their greatest assets. With so many great bowyers to choose from there should be no problem finding something made just the way "we" like it.
I admire a person that can take a simple stave of wood and turn it into a beautiful and functional hunting weapon. On the other hand i also admire a person that wants flawless tolerances that are repeatable during their bow crafting process. In either aspect the bowyers mind and hands are their greatest assets. With so many great bowyers to choose from there should be no problem finding something made just the way "we" like it.
JMR . That can be accomplished with or without a CNC. There are these little things called micrometers (Grin) I live with one.
God bless you all, Steve
Sixby, no disrespect intended. I was just trying to say that with so many options available everyone should be able to find something to their liking. Sometimes the written word doesn't come across as intended. Your bows are beautiful works of art as are many others regardless of manufacturing process. Happy shooting and Merry Christmas
Quote"Any old stick will make a bow, but it takes a damn good one to make an arrow."
- - Ishi
:biglaugh:
QuoteOriginally posted by ti-guy:
QuoteOriginally posted by gregg dudley:
QuoteOriginally posted by Peckerwood:
I would think the only true hand made bows would be self bows .
X2 [/b]
...But was the tree cut with a hand saw :D :biglaugh: [/b]
Ha! I thought this conversation was more about templates than tools. This conversation has less to do with bowyer craftsmanship and ability than it does with customer perception and desire. With custom bows everyone seeks to have something one of a kind. Most people are happy choosing wood and veneers. Some people want more.
People that chafe over CNC machined bows typically feel like they haven't got a truly "one of a kind" item. That's just my observation.
I appreciate the skill of a bowyer, but I am far more easy to please. If it looks nice and shoots well, I like it. Pretty simple. If i like the product, what I look for in a bowyer is integrity, not methodology.
I have made a few by hand, actually 140 selfbows that remember, probably a lot more that I don't have on record.
I do use a band saw to rough out the blank and a belt sander to square up the edges but everything else is done by eyeball with a rasp, file, scraper and a bit of sandpaper. I also use an orbital palm sander to get rid of the washboard belly effect that often shows up during final tillering.
I am out of action at the present, if things at home continue to improve I should be making bows again in the spring.
Bob is the most knowledgeable person around when it comes to traditional bows. He has several of mine.
Hats off to the contributers of this thread!
:campfire:
Hey Eric! I have thought about you a lot lately and wondered how things are going at home. Look for an email.