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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Nativestranger on December 13, 2012, 12:53:00 PM

Title: Which horse bow?
Post by: Nativestranger on December 13, 2012, 12:53:00 PM
Hi everyone. Does anyone shoot a horse bow/ composite replica bow here? Which model do you own and what would you recommend? I have been looking around at grozer and kassai. But i do not want a Hungarian/ mongol style bow with heavy siyahs. I heard the Salukis are the best and I love the design of the Turk but they are a bit too expensive and too long of a wait. I just found that Grozer's L1 Assyrian laminated bow has a very similar design and limb profile at a smaller price. Both highly deflex reflexed, forward handle and smaller streamlined siyahs than other horse bows. Anyone has experience with this bow? I am open to other suggestions as well.

 http://www.nomadbows.com/htm/L1_Asszir/g/index.html
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Flying Dutchman on December 13, 2012, 02:36:00 PM
I shot the grozer Assyrian laminated bow and it is one of the best shooting horsebows I ever shot. Very smoooooth, unbelievable fast, shoots were you look, and almost no handshock.
Al this for a great price, higly recommended!

It is on my list too....
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: NormanDale33 on December 13, 2012, 03:16:00 PM
Checkout the Tanjavour lb form Java man as well, not sure it is exactley what you are looking for, but they are sweet I think. Good price and made by Greg Coffey.
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Nativestranger on December 13, 2012, 08:56:00 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by Flying Dutchman:
I shot the grozer Assyrian laminated bow and it is one of the best shooting horsebows I ever shot. Very smoooooth, unbelievable fast, shoots were you look, and almost no handshock.
Al this for a great price, higly recommended!

It is on my list too....
Thanks. That's good to hear. The Assyrian does look like a good candidate for a poor man's Saluki. I realized there are 2 versions. laminated and biocomposite laminated that has horn and sinew. The biocomposite one looks good too but shaped more like a hybrid longbow. Do you have experience with that one as well?

http://www.grozerarchery.com/htm/assir/assir.htm

I really am jealous of that you have 2 peregrines.
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Nativestranger on December 13, 2012, 09:09:00 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by NormanDale33:
Checkout the Tanjavour lb form Java man as well, not sure it is exactley what you are looking for, but they are sweet I think. Good price and made by Greg Coffey.
You are right it looks sweet. Reminds me of Saluki ibex.  Java man has some very interesting looking bows. His helms deep and Assyrian looks great as well. Anyone shoots a java man bow here?
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Saluki55 on December 14, 2012, 01:22:00 AM
I have a #47 pound  Bio composite Grozer Hungarian Short bow that is my main shooter its smooth and and very fast with carbon arrows . Grozer makes some great bows but does not come close to a saluki. Salukis are worth the wait and money

i ordered my grozer from   http://www.hunarchery.com/

I got the pleasure of shooting a saluki hybrid and 3 days later found myself starting the process of ordering one
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Nativestranger on December 14, 2012, 08:49:00 AM
QuoteOriginally posted by Saluki55:
I have a #47 pound  Bio composite Grozer Hungarian Short bow that is my main shooter its smooth and and very fast with carbon arrows . Grozer makes some great bows but does not come close to a saluki. Salukis are worth the wait and money

i ordered my grozer from    http://www.hunarchery.com/  

I got the pleasure of shooting a saluki hybrid and 3 days later found myself starting the process of ordering one
Which Saluki did you get to shoot and what did you end up with? The biocomposite bows looks good but the Hungarian is not the fastest design according to grozer.
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Flying Dutchman on December 14, 2012, 12:17:00 PM
QuoteI realized there are 2 versions. laminated and biocomposite laminated that has horn and sinew. The biocomposite one looks good too but shaped more like a hybrid longbow. Do you have experience with that one as well?


I really am jealous of that you have 2 peregrines. [/QB]
There are two versions and I will quote from Grozers' site:

1. the Assyrian Bio Composite
This bow comes with sinew on the back and horn plates on the belly.
The bows made by this technology consist of the following materials: the middle layers of wood, the inner layer of pressed horn, while the outer layer of pressed sinew plate. These two layers are glued to the wooden plate by modern glue and the glued layer gets a fibre strengthening. Due to these biocomposite materials, the modern technology and materials these bows are faster than the simple laminated bows. They are appreciably soft, have long draw length and without any resonance when drawing.
These bows give almost the same shooting experience than a hornbow (extra III) and even their appearance is similar, although the biocomposite bows are flatter.

Standard Price: €350,-

2. The Assyrian Bio Composite Extra III
The bow is made in the same way as they were made thousands of years ago that is of horn-wood-sinew. The primitive Eastern recurve bows like the Hungarian, Hunnish, Avar, Turkish... etc were not made only of wood, but of much more flexible and durable materials than wood and these were horn and sinew. Only the cores of the bows were of wood. In ancient times these bows were simply called hornbows. I have been occupied in this technology the most. My first hornbow was ready 19 years ago. Since that time I have been experimenting these bows nearly every day, I've spent a lot of time on them and they have gone through a lot of development. The composite bows produced during the last few years can compete with the modern material bows (but they are not more sensitive than the Olympic bows). Though these bows are extremely sensitive to stringing. It is worth stringing them in a crouched position with the help of another person.

Standard price: €750,-

For the extra III this means Grozer is also using ancient glue like made from the bladder of fish.

I shot both, but I don't think the extra III justifies the difference in price. And besides of that: they are more vulnarable.

Unless you are an ancient horsebow junkie, who wants to shoot with the genuine ancient horsebows to experience how a boow shoots made with am technique that is thousands of year old, my choice would be the first version.... It shoots that good that it leaves no more whishes.

And yes, I am very lucky to own two Peregrines  :)
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Nativestranger on December 14, 2012, 06:06:00 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by Flying Dutchman:
 
QuoteI realized there are 2 versions. laminated and biocomposite laminated that has horn and sinew. The biocomposite one looks good too but shaped more like a hybrid longbow. Do you have experience with that one as well?


I really am jealous of that you have 2 peregrines. [/b]
There are two versions and I will quote from Grozers' site:

1. the Assyrian Bio Composite
This bow comes with sinew on the back and horn plates on the belly.
The bows made by this technology consist of the following materials: the middle layers of wood, the inner layer of pressed horn, while the outer layer of pressed sinew plate. These two layers are glued to the wooden plate by modern glue and the glued layer gets a fibre strengthening. Due to these biocomposite materials, the modern technology and materials these bows are faster than the simple laminated bows. They are appreciably soft, have long draw length and without any resonance when drawing.
These bows give almost the same shooting experience than a hornbow (extra III) and even their appearance is similar, although the biocomposite bows are flatter.

Standard Price: €350,-

2. The Assyrian Bio Composite Extra III
The bow is made in the same way as they were made thousands of years ago that is of horn-wood-sinew. The primitive Eastern recurve bows like the Hungarian, Hunnish, Avar, Turkish... etc were not made only of wood, but of much more flexible and durable materials than wood and these were horn and sinew. Only the cores of the bows were of wood. In ancient times these bows were simply called hornbows. I have been occupied in this technology the most. My first hornbow was ready 19 years ago. Since that time I have been experimenting these bows nearly every day, I've spent a lot of time on them and they have gone through a lot of development. The composite bows produced during the last few years can compete with the modern material bows (but they are not more sensitive than the Olympic bows). Though these bows are extremely sensitive to stringing. It is worth stringing them in a crouched position with the help of another person.

Standard price: €750,-

For the extra III this means Grozer is also using ancient glue like made from the bladder of fish.

I shot both, but I don't think the extra III justifies the difference in price. And besides of that: they are more vulnarable.

Unless you are an ancient horsebow junkie, who wants to shoot with the genuine ancient horsebows to experience how a boow shoots made with am technique that is thousands of year old, my choice would be the first version.... It shoots that good that it leaves no more whishes.

And yes, I am very lucky to own two Peregrines    :)   [/QB]
Great info. I never really considered the extra III. There are 3 versions actually. The other one is the wood / glass laminated one I refered to on the first post which only appear in grozer nomad line. Which one are you referring to in your first post? This is how the glass laminated one looks:

 http://nomadbows.com/stock/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=70_4_91&products_id=1785
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Saluki55 on December 14, 2012, 09:17:00 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by Nativestranger:
 
QuoteOriginally posted by Saluki55:
I have a #47 pound  Bio composite Grozer Hungarian Short bow that is my main shooter its smooth and and very fast with carbon arrows . Grozer makes some great bows but does not come close to a saluki. Salukis are worth the wait and money

i ordered my grozer from     http://www.hunarchery.com/  

I got the pleasure of shooting a saluki hybrid and 3 days later found myself starting the process of ordering one
Which Saluki did you get to shoot and what did you end up with? The biocomposite bows looks good but the Hungarian is not the fastest design according to grozer. [/b]
I shot a Crimean Tartar Hybrid Bow that was #50 pounds but felt more like 45. I like it so much i ordered the same style (Crimean Tartar Hybrid Bow) but i wanted a higher weight so i got it in a 55.

The hybrid bows are not as expensive as the horn and arnt as sensitive to heat or cold but u still get the same performance as a real horn bow
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Buranurra on December 14, 2012, 10:05:00 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by Saluki55:
 
QuoteOriginally posted by Nativestranger:
   
QuoteOriginally posted by Saluki55:
I have a #47 pound  Bio composite Grozer Hungarian Short bow that is my main shooter its smooth and and very fast with carbon arrows . Grozer makes some great bows but does not come close to a saluki. Salukis are worth the wait and money

i ordered my grozer from       http://www.hunarchery.com/    

I got the pleasure of shooting a saluki hybrid and 3 days later found myself starting the process of ordering one
Which Saluki did you get to shoot and what did you end up with? The biocomposite bows looks good but the Hungarian is not the fastest design according to grozer. [/b]
I shot a Crimean Tartar Hybrid Bow that was #50 pounds but felt more like 45. I like it so much i ordered the same style (Crimean Tartar Hybrid Bow) but i wanted a higher weight so i got it in a 55.

The hybrid bows are not as expensive as the horn and arnt as sensitive to heat or cold but u still get the same performance as a real horn bow [/b]
I am 3 months into my wait for a Saluki  horn Crimean Tartar 55 pounds !
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Flying Dutchman on December 15, 2012, 03:37:00 AM
I shot the biocomposite and the extra III. I liked both and if was rich I wuold buy the extra III. However, that one is more vulnarable and costs twice as much.
Like I told, the biocomposite is great bow, you will be atonished! It is a rocketlauncher with a very sweet draw. It shoots where you look.

The glass laminated is a nomad model. I never shot that one.
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Nativestranger on December 16, 2012, 11:43:00 AM
Thanks for all the suggestions so far. I think I will go for the Grozer Assyrian biocomposite as suggested by flying Dutchman. The price is good and it stocks are available.
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Flying Dutchman on December 16, 2012, 02:18:00 PM
You won't regret that desicion, Jimmy!
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Jhoneil1 on January 22, 2013, 09:38:00 PM
A Mariner Han Wind and a Moon Ming 4.

]

  (http://jhoneil.smugmug.com/photos/i-3cczvRm/0/XL/i-3cczvRm-XL.jpg)
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Guru on January 22, 2013, 09:49:00 PM
Will this bow be used to hunt?
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Atarn Warbow on February 05, 2013, 03:39:00 PM
68# @28" Saluki Turk

  (https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-qNIuMI00bSI/UP4pwvrxCZI/AAAAAAAAAJs/AWcx7U5ZSas/s422/SDC11807.JPG)

  (https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Ty0eXzwfYnc/UP4pxrktKoI/AAAAAAAAAIo/lM_0mqawv48/s422/SDC11808.JPG)  

   (https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-No5b_LyPSAo/UP4pzOhZb4I/AAAAAAAAAIw/KCaplAbDtNM/s422/SDC11809.JPG)  

  (https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-tM6tNpssFfo/UP4p0uO7jRI/AAAAAAAAAI4/NSNUe22s1QY/s422/SDC11811.JPG)
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Atarn Warbow on February 05, 2013, 03:42:00 PM
80# YMG (Hwarang)

  (https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-fYSn162D66E/UP4ppa8l-zI/AAAAAAAAAII/t3I7yGEw9R8/s422/SDC11802.JPG)

  (https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ZcQhaWYOS88/UP4pqlA3-LI/AAAAAAAAAIQ/AtK1Ke9b1eU/s422/SDC11803.JPG)
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Andrei101 on February 05, 2013, 04:07:00 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by Nativestranger:
Hi everyone. Does anyone shoot a horse bow/ composite replica bow here? Which model do you own and what would you recommend? I have been looking around at grozer and kassai. But i do not want a Hungarian/ mongol style bow with heavy siyahs. I heard the Salukis are the best and I love the design of the Turk but they are a bit too expensive and too long of a wait. I just found that Grozer's L1 Assyrian laminated bow has a very similar design and limb profile at a smaller price. Both highly deflex reflexed, forward handle and smaller streamlined siyahs than other horse bows. Anyone has experience with this bow? I am open to other suggestions as well.

  http://www.nomadbows.com/htm/L1_Asszir/g/index.html  
How do you want to shoot it? three fingers or thumb ring? If I would have to chose between Grozer and Kassai I would chose Grozer. They seem to build bows of a higher quality. But most of the people that I know competing at historical replica category use a hwarang. They're not so expensive and I've heard many times they're the best horse bows.
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Nativestranger on February 05, 2013, 06:45:00 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by Andrei101:
 
QuoteOriginally posted by Nativestranger:
Hi everyone. Does anyone shoot a horse bow/ composite replica bow here? Which model do you own and what would you recommend? I have been looking around at grozer and kassai. But i do not want a Hungarian/ mongol style bow with heavy siyahs. I heard the Salukis are the best and I love the design of the Turk but they are a bit too expensive and too long of a wait. I just found that Grozer's L1 Assyrian laminated bow has a very similar design and limb profile at a smaller price. Both highly deflex reflexed, forward handle and smaller streamlined siyahs than other horse bows. Anyone has experience with this bow? I am open to other suggestions as well.

    http://www.nomadbows.com/htm/L1_Asszir/g/index.html    
How do you want to shoot it? three fingers or thumb ring? If I would have to chose between Grozer and Kassai I would chose Grozer. They seem to build bows of a higher quality. But most of the people that I know competing at historical replica category use a hwarang. They're not so expensive and I've heard many times they're the best horse bows. [/b]
I have got the Grozer Assyrian biocomposite now and it's great. Shoots much better than the grozer base fiberglass models that most people often judge Grozer with. Shooting with 3 fingers under. I would like to try the Korean and turkish ones too. Though I heard the Hwarangs are fast but not as forgiving with their low brace height. Which one are you shooting?
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Nativestranger on February 05, 2013, 06:47:00 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by Atarn Warbow:
68# @28" Saluki Turk

   (https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-qNIuMI00bSI/UP4pwvrxCZI/AAAAAAAAAJs/AWcx7U5ZSas/s422/SDC11807.JPG)

   (https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Ty0eXzwfYnc/UP4pxrktKoI/AAAAAAAAAIo/lM_0mqawv48/s422/SDC11808.JPG)  

    (https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-No5b_LyPSAo/UP4pzOhZb4I/AAAAAAAAAIw/KCaplAbDtNM/s422/SDC11809.JPG)  

   (https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-tM6tNpssFfo/UP4p0uO7jRI/AAAAAAAAAI4/NSNUe22s1QY/s422/SDC11811.JPG)
Nice! No shelf like a true horsebow!
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Atarn Warbow on February 05, 2013, 08:02:00 PM
Nativestranger, that's the only way to extract the maximum potential out of these types of bow by using the thumb draw method.  With the thumb draw method, it is quite easy to have a 32" draw.
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Atarn Warbow on February 05, 2013, 08:06:00 PM
I also second what Andrei101 said.  The Hwarang (SMG & YMG) bows are the best performing for the money horsebows available.
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Nativestranger on February 05, 2013, 09:03:00 PM
I have tried the thumb release. It hurts and I can only get it to half draw.  With fingers drawn to 28" the bow is plenty fast and flat out to 25 yards. I will train up thumb again and try thumb release. How is accuracy using thumb vs fingers? I gap shoot 3 under Jimmy Blackmon style at the moment and accuracy is pretty good.
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Atarn Warbow on February 05, 2013, 09:11:00 PM
Nativestranger,

Your thumb shouldn't hurt.  The thumb ring has to fit you like a custom-made pair of shoes.  Perhaps, you might consider this thumb ring construction technique:   http://www.tirendaz.com/en/?page_id=428
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Nativestranger on February 05, 2013, 09:34:00 PM
Good to know that.  I used a piece of hard leather to make mine. Maybe I should look into getting one of those rings. How does the Turkish bow shoot? I wanted a Turkish biocomposite for a long time but the short one is too short and the longer one has too large of a siyah for my liking. As far as I know those must be shot with thumbing. Am I right?
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Jhoneil1 on February 06, 2013, 02:29:00 AM
Peter. You know better than to call Eastern bows, horsebows.  ;)
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Nativestranger on February 06, 2013, 03:39:00 AM
Mine prefers to be shot from a chariot.   :D
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Atarn Warbow on February 06, 2013, 03:40:00 AM
Jhoneil, I try not to but most folks wouldn't know without this reference.
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Atarn Warbow on February 06, 2013, 03:42:00 AM
Nativestranger,

Thumb draw can be accurate if you practice a lot.  The Turkish draw length is very similar to modern recurve, about 28" maximum.  So you can still use your eye to line up with the arrow and target for aiming.
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Andrei101 on February 06, 2013, 05:59:00 AM
QuoteOriginally posted by Nativestranger:
I have got the Grozer Assyrian biocomposite now and it's great. Shoots much better than the grozer base fiberglass models that most people often judge Grozer with. Shooting with 3 fingers under. I would like to try the Korean and turkish ones too. Though I heard the Hwarangs are fast but not as forgiving with their low brace height. Which one are you shooting? [/b][/QUOTE]

I've shot some of my frend's bows, Grozer, Hwarang, Samick Mind 50 and lately tried the thumb ring on a Kaya KTB. I am RH shooter and shot it with the thumb of the left hand raised as a shelf on the right side of the bow - the right hand was pulling the string with a thumb ring on my right hand thumb (hope it makes sense). It's a much different technique than the one we use for those traditional hunter recurves. And I think it's the best way to shoot an asian bow.
As for the biocomposite bows of Grozer, they always do shoot better than the fiberglass ones.
Congrats on your Assyrian, it is indeed a beautiful bow.
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Nativestranger on February 06, 2013, 04:13:00 PM
Thanks Andrei. I wonder how do you aim with thumb release technique or just shoot purely instinctive. If I am not wrong the thumb release draws about 1" more even for the same anchor point and gives about 5-10 fps more performance. How do you like the KTB?
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: A.S. on February 06, 2013, 05:10:00 PM
Very neat Jimmy!

I was wondering if this was the type of bow I was making your strings for.  Looks very fun to shoot.
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Shifting Shadow on February 06, 2013, 05:38:00 PM
I might have missed it, but did anyone mention Attila's bows? He makes a handful of models. The one I am the most familiar with is his u-finish one. Good reviews.
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Nativestranger on February 06, 2013, 06:05:00 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by A.S.:
Very neat Jimmy!

I was wondering if this was the type of bow I was making your strings for.  Looks very fun to shoot.
Yes it is! Shot it abit yesterday and I am amazed at the quietness of your string. Very little creep as well. Love the serving and nocking point construction.

I highly recommend Allen's bowstrings very well made and a pleasure to deal with!
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Nativestranger on February 06, 2013, 08:57:00 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by Shifting Shadow:
I might have missed it, but did anyone mention Attila's bows? He makes a handful of models. The one I am the most familiar with is his u-finish one. Good reviews.
Do you have pictures or link? Please post them here.
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Nativestranger on February 06, 2013, 08:59:00 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by Jhoneil1:
A Mariner Han Wind and a Moon Ming 4.

]

   (http://jhoneil.smugmug.com/photos/i-3cczvRm/0/XL/i-3cczvRm-XL.jpg)
Hi Jhoneil. Who makes these?  They look almost like Saluki's Genghis design. How do they shoot?
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Jhoneil1 on February 06, 2013, 09:21:00 PM
Mariner makes them in  China and Cinnabar Bows import them to the US. Honestly, they are the best Asian  bow I have shot. The Ming actually feels exactly like the Saluki I shot  once but without the steep price tag.
Title: Re: Which horse bow?
Post by: Atarn Warbow on February 07, 2013, 04:46:00 AM
I second Jhoneil.  :-)  But a Saluki bow is a treat, at least once in a life time.