Got my Axis Trads overnighted and they just arrived. I got feather #1 glued up now, pics will be posted when I get one done. I'll also post a how to on some fantastic inserts I made/modified for these which are the best inserts for these Axis arrows.
Didn't know there was such a thing, look forward to the pics
So first thing first ill show you the inserts I put together for them. I got a hold of some CX Edge rustproof stainless steel half in half out inserts. These are 17/64" and they fit the Axis arrows perfectly and they weigh about 43 grains. I then cut the threaded part off of some field points, fanned some super glue on one end and screwed them halfway into the back of the insert leaving about three threads exposed. I took the 75 grain brass break off hit inserts and broke the back off making them 50 grains. I then mixed up some hit epoxy and dipped the threads I installed on the back of the CX Edge Insert and screwed them onto the back of the CX Edge inserts. This makes a 100 grain half out stainless steel insert for your Axis arrows. But by not breaking off the insert or using the 100 grain hit inserts you can make a 125 or 150 grain insert as well. Super strong, strengthens the arrow, no need to foot. Here's some pics to show what I described. Hope this helps some of you guys.
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r617/Thare1774/1354657780436.jpg)
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r617/Thare1774/1354657887253.jpg)
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r617/Thare1774/1354657912815.jpg)
Thats pretty darn cool...
:thumbsup:
Glad you like it. God Bless
Ya, that is cool! I'm going to be looking for some of those.
I bet it adds a lot of strength too, enough where an external footing wouldnt be needed. Thanks for sharing, I have a Axis Trad Test kit coming from 3 rivers soon.
:thumbsup:
Looks great! What is the difference between axis trads and the beeman mfx's?
I can see where the nearly doubly long insert provides more glue surface to hold the insert in place rather than crushing the front end of the shaft on hits on immoveable objects.
The shoulder of the insert itself is the same size as the shoulder of the field point, so on a direct hit on something solid it would be just as likely to split the carbon behind it -- except for that longer gluing surface.
You might have something there. Let us know how it works.
On the Axis arrows normally the arrow tip is already stressed from having the field point screwed up against it, making it easier to split. But with this the insert may be the same diameter but it isn't stressing the carbon and because of the fit and the epoxy this insert I think will make footing absolete on the Axis arrows. The weak point I've found on the Axis arrows is the space between the hit insert and the point, but with this insert I've made up there is no space. But ill post after shooting them and let you guys know how they hold up.
Also I forgot to add I'm using the 9/32" field points from 3rivers which taper down to 17/64" so the point width is a tad larger than the inserts.
I've been shooting some with 100 grain brass inserts for about two weeks. I love the MFX but this n-Fused Axis Traditional is my new favorite! Looks a lot like MFX Classic but is slightly smaller in diameter. At my BOP of 27 inches my Axis are 22 grains lighter than the MFX -- 500 spine.
I agree bowwild, i liked the mfx but im really excited about these new traditionals. My total arrow weight fletched with these inserts are 554 grains average full length.
Could just get some set screws the same thread size and bore as the field tip threads instead of breaking a field tip, would be cheaper and use some blue or red loc tite so if you screwed up the edge stainless outsert you could just heat it up and take it off and replace it. Food for thought!
I used field tips because i have about a thousand and a dozen costs me only a couple bucks. If i was making up 10 dozen i would think about another source, but for a dozen arrows its not much of a bank breaker.
QuoteOriginally posted by Thare1774:
I used field tips because i have about a thousand and a dozen costs me only a couple bucks. If i was making up 10 dozen i would think about another source, but for a dozen arrows its not much of a bank breaker.
Yeah, no doubt, I could come up with quite a few myself, but was thinking more for others that might try to put something like this together, might be able to find some set screws are even all thread or a stainless srcrew or something a little longer to give a little more grip length. Great idea, not trying to belittle it, like your ingenuity, wish I had more myself!
Good idea Goat. Could probably just buy a long piece of threaded rod at the hardware store (it even comes in brass) and cut off the desired lengths for the joint.
Those are the insetrs for the CE thunderstorms and predator II shafts?
those are nice!
Glad to hear you like the shafts! Your insert is awesome I hate the HIT inserts as they do leave a weak point at the front of the shaft unless you foot them.
@Old Goat- no offence taken believe me. Threaded rod would work much better and would be easier to cut and such. Its such a good idea that ive already begun sourcing threaded rod lol
@prarie drifter- im not certain on the shaft these are intended for. I stumbled upon the packs of these at the shop i work at and just by chance i dry fitted them in an Axis arrow. Been thinking of ways to add weight to them for a couple weeks.
I'm not trying to be a hater...
But what does the Axis shaft do that the MFX doesn't do?
QuoteOriginally posted by Prairie Drifter:
Those are the insetrs for the CE thunderstorms and predator II shafts?
Yes, these are the inserts used for those shafts! I have a half dozen left over from my wife's last batch of arrows so I may just have to give this a try sometime.
Dan,
I'm told by Easton the Axis Traditional will be more durable. However, I have had no durability issues with MFX. I shoot a lot and have only broken one shaft in three years. That one broke about 6" up from the point. I don't know if the shaft wall of the Axis is a bit thicker in order for the shaft to be a smaller diameter? If so that could enhance durability.
I wish the HIT insert had two 25 grain break-off nibs though. I'm forever spending $14 on 100 grain inserts and then throwing the 75/50 brass inserts that come with the MFX or Axis in a drawer. I might stop doing that though if I can work out the tuning. I don't want to change broad heads (Helix 125) and I don't want to go with a 150 grain Helix because it is a bit wider and I don't want to impact penetration.
I noted that the shaft is a bit lighter. I don't consider that an advantage, especially at my 26" draw length. I do like small diameter shafts though for tuning and penetration reasons.
I'm told that 8-32 is the thread on all point inserts and field points, etc...
If so, I got 8-32 all thread at the hardware store in a long piece about 18" long for a couple bucks some years back when GT used all thread for their own weight system. it threaded nicely into the insert...so I'm trusting it is indeed 8-32 all thread.
has anyone tried the axis inserts with the new low temp hot melt glue? I know they use epoxy but i'm thinking the new low temp hot melt will work with the insert tool.
Great insert idea.!!
I saw those the other day on 3R. They look cool and I want some. But at $132 a DOZEN PLUS SHIPPING!!
Is way out of my budget for arrows.
Otherwise I'd be on them like white on rice. Great concept
Is there any comercial brass insert alternative to the HIT insert for Axis and MFX that has an exposed portion of the insert equivalent to the OD of the 9/32 shafts?
Whats the problem with the HIT insert? I like it.
As far as I know this is the only alternative to the HIT system other than the Deep Six RPS Inserts. But those are light and you can only use 100 grain points on em.
I suspect that after all is said and done you will still find footing the shaft works best. All the other carbons that don't use HIT inserts are footed most of the time, aren't they? I just don't see the difference.
While I generally like the HIT inserts I have one problem. Every time I make up a dozen I always have one or two that seems to get a bit too much glue on the inside walls, or worse, in the threads that make it difficult to screw in a field point, or get it out.
The last dozen I made (actually the Axis Trads) I used Easton instant insert glue. It was better but I still had a time with one of them.
Ahh man your killing me...i just made up a dozen axis st with the brass inserts. These hybrid inserts look great! I wonder if they would work on the new gold tip kinetics?
@Bill- while I do understand the benefit of footing any carbon shaft, I've only found it necessary with shafts using the Hit system. But I can only speak of my own experiences.
I got a question on the small diameter penetration theory,
Why do you think small diameter matters if the broadhead is in front of the shaft making the big hole ,does drag really matter.. just curious,,as I read this thread,I understand all the FOC stuff but its the small diameter thing got me stumped
QuoteOriginally posted by floodman:
I got a question on the small diameter penetration theory,
Why do you think small diameter matters if the broadhead is in front of the shaft making the big hole ,does drag really matter.. just curious,,as I read this thread,I understand all the FOC stuff but its the small diameter thing got me stumped
marketing mostly
@Floodman- smaller diameter shaft + big broadhead and big hole = less surface area contacting the animal = less drag and deeper penetration.
I don't know if it matters at all but...
The live tissue arrows penetrate are elastic. The skin, muscle, and organs the broadhead penetrates close behind the head as it passes. It would seem to me the smaller diameter shaft provides less surface area for the generation of friction.
I'm shooting just under 50# draw weight at my 26" draw. I want to milk all I can get from my equipment. All reasons I also shoot well-tuned arrows, at less than 20 yards, at nearly broadside unalert deer.
Wow..bows shooting 160-180 fps how much drag really...,shoot a deer with a pass thru,1/32 of a second to exit,not sure there is enough time for drag on a fleshy animal,..24 years of this and I can tell you,shafts don't drag in real hunting situation where there is broadheads invoved,and doing all the modification on a HIT system is just for pure enjoyment,became it is a poor system.just get 5/16 shafts with a strong insert that has a lip and be done with it,the wind factor effect probably less than 10% treestand hunting,but its all the tinkering that makes it fun..
Wow..bows shooting 160-180 fps how much drag really...,shoot a deer with a pass thru,1/32 of a second to exit,not sure there is enough time for drag on a fleshy animal,..24 years of this and I can tell you,shafts don't drag in real hunting situation where there is broadheads invoved,and doing all the modification on a HIT system is just for pure enjoyment,became it is a poor system.just get 5/16 shafts with a strong insert that has a lip and be done with it,the wind factor effect probably less than 10% treestand hunting,but its all the tinkering that makes it fun..
I don't really know how much difference it makes on an animal but I certainly get more penetration from the skinny arrows in my targets. I'm also using FMJs rather than pure carbons. I also find the smaller diameter shaft to be easier to aim.
Fox,
To answer your question I have been using low temp hobby glue for a few years now. I like it, try not to add heat to the shaft only the insert. I have a 8-32 hex head that I use to bottom in the insert and head the hex head, the insert will release. I use a vice grip on the hex head screw. Works for me.
ALDO
I've been using the blue Bohning cool flex low temp hot melt with 50 grain hit inserts installed in FMJ's and it seems to be working well. Like Aldo said above, just don't apply heat directly to the shaft. I also drop mine tip first into a glass of water (cold from tap) as soon as I get the insert seated per the instructions on the glue. BTW Thare...that insert/outsert is a great idea, may be looking to try that myself. :thumbsup:
good deal fellas i'm going to try it. i have been using it on regular carbons with great success. pretty sure it will work excellent on axis shafts.
Thare: I was really thinking out loud when I posted. I used to shoot CX and played a bit with Arrow Dynamics. I found that they all "survived" stump shooting better after being footed. It seems to me that wherever a metal insert meets a carbon shaft there are going to be failures unless you are shooting very light weight bows into very soft targets. I still think footing these inserts will be beneficial.
You might want to try the Goldtip accutuff insert/outsert looks like the same thing if you cant find the cx
@Floodman- I have to disagree with you. Just because the arrow passes fast doesn't mean the impact and travel through the animal doesn't create drag, it absolutely does. Aside from the science behind it, there have been many tests done that prove a thinner arrow, properly tuned with a nice sharp head penetrates better than 5/16"+ shafts. I'm not saying a thinner arrow is a better arrow for all situations. But you cant deny the science of objects in motion, arrows are not an exception to these scientific laws.
Just today I used the 7 steps of Scientific Problem Solving,Formed the Hypothesis and Communicated resuts,And I counted how many white stripes vs Black stipes a Zebra has on his ass,The results you are talking about is scientific truth,But so Minimum,that people don't need to swith because of Drag that would take a triefector Meter to determine,also strip them feathers off,that Drag will kill you every time...just havin Fun,My Phd never made me a dime but I still like to throw it around ,it cost me a lot of bows to pay off the 9 years off College...Yall have a Very Merry Christmas...Flood
Well Floodman, congrats on your PHD. But it really is not an argument, thinner shaft, tuned well, with a nice sharp broadhead does penetrate better than its 5/16" equivalent. Feathers don't make as difference in penetration, once the feathers are touching the animal the damage is done, I know you said you were kidding ;) .
Yea some guys just like to pay. I use the hit inserts that come with the arrow and shoot through everything . I don't mess with all that weight and stuff
Hmmmmmmm. I'm mostly a woody shooter. Have been for more than 50 years. However, have been experimenting with some Axis shafts for the last year or so. I've found them to be very tough, and for my purposes, they don't need a footing of any kind. I do a lot of target and stump shooting and hunting with 50-56# ACSx bows. In a few instances I have bounced these shafts off of trees straight back at me with no damage. Of course, I've had a few glancing impacts as well without damage.
Seems there are a couple of things that one can do to reduce the probability of the insert/arrow shoulder being driven back into the shaft. First is to make sure the end of the shaft is perfectly square. Any high spots concentrate the frontal impact pressure into a small area, which would be the first to go. Second is to solidly glue the insert itself so it becomes one with the shaft. Epoxy is more likely to do that than the hot melt glues. That being said, I'm using hot melt on 100 grain brass inserts, and I still find the arrows tough as nails. I think the slightly thicker wall on the Axis shafts vis-a-vis a 5/16 inch shaft contributes to its strength as well.
Long story short, these shafts as they come out of the box are far stronger than anything else I've ever shot. I haven't seen the need to reinforce them anywhere.
Yea I was just messing with you fella,my Phd is Post Hole Diggers..from the skool of hard knocks..take care my pals...Floodman
Thanks for the idea, may look into these arras in the spring. Looking for something lighter to load up front.