Trad Gang

Shooting a 42lb talltines recurve, shooting 11/32 cedar shafts , 125 points, they weigh 500 grains, the 42lb is at my draw.
They worked good enough this year on big bodied whitetail.

I wonder if I am on the heavy side, and would e better to be closer to 400 to 420, 9 to 10 grains per pound. My style of shooting the flatter the trajectory the better.

Too heavy? Not in my opinion. I shoot several 40-42lbs bows with 550gr's and all I've ever gotten was complete passthru's on deer and quick kills.

I guess I don't understand........they worked this year on a big bodied whitetail! Do you want to go lighter and not have them work???? If you had success I think I would not change a thing!!  I'm shooting 46#'s and my cedars are 600 gr. I think I'll stay with them!

I think I understand. You are wondering if you can still be suited for hunting if you go a bit lighter. Because if I understand for other shooting like maybe 3D's you would like a flatter shooting arrow. My answer would go with 10 grns. per. inch. That set up would be fit for both. Also, I may add very sharp 2 blade broadhead.

I personally would sacrifice a little speed and trajectory for the extra penetration you should get with the setup you have now.JMO

I'd say no worries with that weight.  Better heavy than too light.

I am shooting lefty with a 41#@28" bow drawn a little further than 28" and using my 30-1/2" BOP cedar arrows w/125 gr heads that weigh almost the same as yours and I am getting good penetration on my bag target.  I hope to hunt whitetail next year with my set-up.

The Red Wing Hunter spits them out well - I'm guessing 170fps +/-

Yeah, it's tinker time for me in the winter, I used 2 blade zwickey head this year,the worked great loved them.

I was able to finally shoot after a 3 week injury, I had some carbons that I never shot with my bow, these limbs, I noticed the speed for sure.

But love the wood, the carbons are 50 to 75 Grains lighter, I pretty much gun barrel the arrow, and adjust the hold off the arrow trajectory, so a flatter shooting arrow in a high stress event could help me at stuff past, 15 yards.

I am a hunter 1st, so accuracy and penetration are my true objectives. Shot the carbons a few times today the got me thinking, which is usually bad.

If you can shoot them accurately at your hunting distances, they are not to heavy!

Bisch

I would stick with it. If it is working for you why change?

If you want to stick with wood, I'd say you're not too heavy. I'm shooting 550 grain Microflight fiberglass with 125 grain Bear Razerheads out of a 43# Bear Super Kodiak.  

Now, if you want a little lighter arrow and same penetration, you could switch to a skinny, light shaft, front loaded carbon arrow of say 490-500 grains and get the same if not better penetration as your 550 grain wood.  I use an Easton Axis 600 carbon arrow (9/32 diameter) with 75 grain brass inserts and a 145 3 blade Kustom King Trailmaker head out of my 43# Super Shrew and they weigh about 480 grains and penetrate like a runaway freight train.  When I shoot my wood arrows (which I love) from the same setup, I'm shooting tapered shafting and 125 grain points, but about 550 grains just like your setup.

I feel that with the lighter bow setups you need to make up for it with heavier wood arrow or higher FOC carbon setups. With both options it's not worth messing around with being sorry about loosing a animal.

Not if you like the way they fly.

The answer is--"if it ain't broke don't fix it!"

No.  It's not too heavy.  Wood rocks!

Must admit I am hunting carbon this season, but intend to switch back to wood for turkey season.  

Most importantly - GLAD you are shooting again after your injury and second most important - where are the pictures of that deer?

Nothin wrong with different weight arrows, shoot um both

Keb, if you're a "tinkerer" then spend the winter testing out both arrows, and shoot lots of them.

I've found that, with my 58# bow, 400 grain arrows work very well.  I've played around at great length to see if more FOC or more GPP would give me better penetration.  When I set up a test of penetration for the various arrows, I find there is no statistically significant between them.  

I recommend you do your own tests and find out what is best for yourself, especially since you like to "gun barrel" and since it is important to you to have a flat trajectory.

My opinion here is certainly a minority opinion.  But, in the end, you need to put together something that works for yourself.

Good luck.

Basically what your asking is how light is too light? That question has been debated for decades with out a definitive answer. However most people have the opinion that hunting arrows should be 10-12 grains per in. of draw. This is my opinion. Put a 100 grain field tip in your hand, this is the amount that you want to reduce your arrow. At 20 yards I don't think you'll notice the difference. The setup you have now has proven it's reliability.What you really need to do is get out to the range or backyard and practice until you can hit 20 or more yards consistently. Better form, cleaner release, maybe a slight change technique could make the difference

Thanks guys, I enjoy te help, for who asked bout te deer, I took, i cant figure out how to post pic, but it's under a thread called giant kansas talltines buck.

I'm just glad,I had bursitis in my shoulder, and not a bad tear in my rotator cuff.

I think you have diminishing returns on too heavy of arrow . I never go over 10 or 11 grains I want to shoot other things besides animals and I dont want my arrows to be lobing in like crow bars . I have a chronagraph and have seen the results adding a hundred grains to an arrow,it makes a big difference and it might lesson your penetration .Not only weight but velocity also adds in penetration you need a medium ,do your own tests .

I would lighten them up to try to get rid of at least 50gr. Just my opinion.

I would use that set-up for 3D as well. If it works enjoy it!   :archer2:

I'm a newbie but I would stick with those arrows. I shoot a similar poundage bow (40.5 lbs at my 30.5" draw) and I have found arrows over 500 grains to fly great. I'm now up to close to 600, with a  28% EFOC and I have not found the trajectory to detract from my accuracy.

I shot 550 gn arrows all 3D season and they did great. I found that my point on distance was not much different from friends shoot much lower GPP. I shot my first hog with the same setup and got a pass through.

These arrows are VERY stable in flight, and my shot is quiet! Most importantly I know these arrows will penetrate. Arrow mass will give you more gains in penetration than increased velocity.

Carbon, aluminum!?!

Don't fix what ain't broke. That's just my opinion though.

God bless,
Charlie

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Nope - not if they fly well.  If anything, another 50 - 100 grains wouldn't hurt when you're shooting a light draw weight.  The heavier arrow will penetrate better.

A light bow already imparts less momentum on the arrow, don't take more away from it from less arrow weight.

How do they fly? That should answer your question .

Has anyone said "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" ?  :wavey:    :campfire:

This set-up works great for me!

I don't see what your draw length is. If it is short, maybe a faster arrow could help with accuracy at longer shots, some.  A 450 grain arrow would more than likely have killed the buck you shot just as well.

Sounds good to me.I think thats a great hunting arrow.
It would be no problem to have another set though thats around 9-10 grains per pound to go with them.
I shoot CX 150s and CX 250s with heavier points on the 250s and a heavier arrow.I shoot the 150s with lighter points and and enjoy shooting them both.
I get better trajectory with the 150s.I get a harder hitting arrow and a quieter pleasant shooting bow with the 250s.I like both.
I dont think its too heavy.

My draw is 27 inches,  wonder how much lighter a 5/16 wood shaft is competed to a 11/32.

I say go with it. 12 gr" is on the heavy side and if it was me I would go to 10gr" just for better tradjectorty , which would make for a better set up fo hunting as your arrows will not drop as fast.

I understand a lot of the if it ain't broke don't fix it advice.  I don't understand why so many assume that at 42 pounds a 12 gpp arrow is handsdown better for penetration.  There are laws that govern the given, ever constant factors in this universe and it is called physics.

Physics basically says that there is a diminishing effect on all things if you have too much of one thing versus another.  Unless you are drawing 30 inches or better and/or have a very clean release, you are flirting with that if not beyond it with your setup.  I don't care how many numbless remarks heavier is beter you hear, it isn't always the case.

Penetration is a function of many things, including mass and SPEED!  Get to far from center in one direction or the other, if all other variables are equal, and you are losing best performance in penetration.  It really is that simple.  Simply loading up a heavy arrow to "get 'er done" is quite possibly costing you more than a lighter faster arrow in terms of penetration.  The trick is to stay with in reason to stay in the range where "best" is the results, not great penetration at 10 yards but lousy at 25 because your arrow was to heavy and never got an adequate speed to penetrate at the longer range.

So don't take the heavier the better approach unless you are content to shoot everything at karate range.  You have many things to consider.  Huntin range limits, quarry you intend to shoot which isn't an issue in North America unless you are after big bruiser hogs.  Your draw length, and string material.

A shorter draw is hampered much quicker from the telephone pole theories.  A longer draw will cast the overly heavy arrows better due to the increased power stroke.  Draw weight matters a lot in heavy arrows and how they cast and penetrate.  String material is a huge determining factor as it increases or decreases bow performance.  All are present in light arrow setups as well but really seperate and help determine if you truly are benefiting in the extra weight of a very heavy gpp arrow.

So, I would be in that 420 range, get great penetration and cast for your setup, kill anything a 12 gpp arrow will, and be happy with it.  You likely are as light in woodies as you are going to get, but get it closer to the 10 gpp with nothing but positive attributes instead of the 18-20 yar max you are currently expierencing due to 12 gpp of arrow weight.

I know a lot here will disagree, but 99% who will have never shot a deer at 30 yards with their telephone poles to tell you any different.  Mainly because they are fine with not attempting that shot.  It works for them and that is great.  Something to remember about this subject: Now we are moving away from the lighter cedar as the first choice in arrow woods, heavier weight are common.  But back in the day, a 425-450 grain cedar, 125 grainhead killed everything on this continent outta 45 pound bows very well.  All with a 12 or foc %.  Native americans killed buffalo with even less foc % and far less performing gear.  So this heavy is always better is misleading at best when you consider the whole picture.  You gotta decide if you are content to be accurate at ranges to 20 yards, or 30 yards or beyond.  Just my .02 worth and God Bless

I had some 5/16 40/45 spine I had not shot, I fletcehed up two, with 100 grain points. Cut them to 28. I shot them thur paper, got bullet holes.

My heavy ones are 45/50 spine, is it common to have both spines tune from the same bow. I can tell the diff in speed, I dont have a grain scale but used the wifes kitchen one, the 5/16 is about 1 onze, which is supposed to be 437 grains, which is 60 grains lighter.

But it seems options for 100 grain glue on heads are slim.

Ace makes a fine 100 grain glue on.  Without knowing the riser cut since the 45/50 pound shafts tune, and the 50/55 do too, I would say your at center or a little past, which means the bow should be very acceptable to tuning many shafts.

If the broadhead selection is getting you, try the 125 head on the 5/16ths shaft.  I bet it is close to tuned.  If you are drawing 27 why do you need a 28 inch arrow?  Shortening it to 27.5 will do wanders to stiffen a woody.  If you trim the shafts a little you still can drop the brace to get it done with the shorter, 125 grain loaded arrow.  Problem solved.

Cut on 27.5 and try it first with the 125 head.  If you still need to stiffen it a coupe twists to start will get you what you need. This is of course if you want the 125 head.  If not, leave it alone and shoot the 100 grain ace heads.  If arrow weight was my intention, I would cut the shaft, use the 125 head, and lower the brace if nesecary.  That extra 1/4 inch or so of lower brace will pick you up a lot of speed as well.  

God Bless

I was able to do some shooting, the bow shots more accurate with the 5/16  40/45 spine w/100 grain, than the 11/32  45/50 spine w/125 grain.

I will be making the switch, it will shave about 60 grains off and put me at 440 ish, are the ace heads for a 5/16 shaft? Anyone know?

Confidence is paramount.

Ironically, there have been merely two times of which I have exceeded a 9.0/3D target average and I was shooting a 11.9 gpp arrow on both occassions. Due note that there were merely 1 to 2 targets 25 yards and over on the courses.

Again, confidence is paramount!

awpforester has it right there is a point  where too much weight becomes harmful to penetration due to lack of speed. at 42 pounds 420grn would be as much as i would shoot.

My testing and real world results on animals shows more weight always helps - I don't know how heavy the arrow would have to be to see diminishing returns.  

here are some actual numbers:
47#@28" ACS CX/Z R/D longbow  drawn 29"
470 grain arrow - 187 fps - 12.555703 foot pounds momentum
500 gr - 177 fps - 12.642844 FP
740 gr - 147 fps - 15.5539987 FP

64# @28" RER Vortec II R/D longbow drawn 29"
500gr - 201 fps - 14.3571FP
740 gr - 177 fps - 18.711413 FP

My wife shoots an RER VOrtec also, she draws about 26 " which results in about 42# at her draw - her 575 grain arrow travels 145 fps which results in 11.910735 FP - which puts her Wensel Woodsmans into the ground on the other side of most deer she shoots.  

Maybe tomorrow I can shoot some extremely heavy "arrows" like steel rods and finberglass rods to see how they chronograph and their momentum - I expect to see some extreme energies -and very low speeds.

I forgot to add - we did the same test with a compound - Matthews set @ 65#, 27" draw -
500 gr - 218 fps - 15.571413 FP
740 gr - 184 fps - 19.451412 FP

I can give you an e-mail of the best arrow maker in the world IMO. He's been making them and matching arrows to bows for almost 40 years. kindsir47@aol.com    E-mail him and he'll be glad to fill you in on the match-ups from a builders point of view.

Thanks for the help, I am a hunter 1st, 3d as practice, I am really only worried about 20 yards and in at this point.

I ordered a set of 5/16, 40/45 spine from the guy who made 11/32, they will be a touch lighter, maybe 40 to 50 grains.

The most important thing I found was the 11/32, 45 to 50 may have been to stiff, and the 40/45 are more accurate for me.

So in the end, I have med weight, smaller diameter, arrow that's more accurate , win win.

I am curious...And I am a newbie, so I am here to learn from all the experienced folk. But I am curious about the supposed point where too much weight equals less penetration?  

I can see the limitations of arrow weight (GPP) on trajectory and aiming. I also can see how a slower arrow might give an animal more time to jump the string. but it must take a ridiculously heavy/slow/high GPP arrow before penetration would be reduced.

Maybe my understanding of physics is limited. From what I remember: velocity loses its energy twice as fast as momentum.

Thanks for the help guys,

Believe there would be much danger in being hit by a train traveling a mere 7.3 fps(5 mph).

Momentum...Momentum...Momentum

The point of diminishing returns is restricted to an archers manageable trajectory for the hunting range required and/or mastered.

:campfire:

Short answer no. Your results speak for themselves.

The assumptions that too heavy of an arrow looses power just aren't proving out in testing. I shot arrows weighing from 450 - 2220 grains (the 2220 grains was a solid fiberglass rod from a blind)through four bows ranging in weight from 41 - 64 # - all drawn to 28"  

Both momentum and KE kept increasing.  In fact, a 740 grain arrow (137fps) from the 41 pound bow has more energy than the 450 gr arrow (204fps)from the 64 # bow.  The 2220 gr arrow had almost twice the energy of the 740 gr. arrow from the 64 pound bow.

The really interesting thing in the preliminary testing, is that all of the bows lost about 100 fps from the 450 - 2220 grain arrows.  

Look at it this way - if you could make and arrow that weighed 1/2grain, it would leave the bow at whatever speed the string is travelling in a "dry fire" situation - maybe 400 fps, but it would only go a few feet and have no energy - imagine a whiffle ball.  Now, a bow could "launch" any arrow lighter than the bow's draw weight (a 40# arrow from a 45# bow) - granted perhaps not very fast and not very far, but it would probably penetrate pretty well.  There probably is a scentific formula for this all, and there well may be a point of diminishing return for power only, but I would think it would be in arrows weighing pounds, not grains.

Power isn't the only consideration, you do have to be able to actually shoot the arrow, but I've noticed little difference in my ability to shoot accurately whether my arrows weighed 450 grains or 750 grains - and yes, I can shoot further than 20 yards.

I'll do more complete, careful, and detailed, testing and post some results on a new thread in the next days.

Sounds like a very interesting experiment Dan. I looks forward to reading about it. High GPP arrows is one of the things I am very interested in right now.

I did run further tests today and verifed the preliminary results.  

I made up ten arrows with weights of 390 - 2220 grains and shot them from four bows of 41 - 64 pounds, all drawn to 28" and all hand shot, finger release.  The bows were two r/d longbows and two recurves.

All bows increased both momentum and kinetic energy as the arrow weight increased.  One of the most interesting things was that across all four bows, the total speed lost going from 390 - 2220 grains was very close to 100fps.  

Also, all the bows lost about 15 fps going from 450 - 550 grains, but only an average of 6 fps going from 850 - 950 grain arrows.  The 740 grain arrow produced almost as much foot pounds of momentum out of the 41 pound bow as the 610 grain arrow out of the 64 pound bow.  

Depending on the bow, the 42 pound recurve with 500 grain arrow questioned in the beginning of the post would have a speed about 170 - 175 fps.  which would produce about 12.3 fp of momentum.  

Every 100 grains of arrow weight increase would reduce speed by about 12 fps, and increase momentum by about 1.2 pounds.

I'm pretty much with AWPForester.

In my opinion, one has to be cautious with the mental application of theory alone.  I have read all these posts for about 2 years now.  But, at the end of the day, only one's own tests matter.  And, even then there is lots of room for differences.

I sure wouldn't want to be hit by a 5 mph train. I also wouldn't want to be hit by a 7 mph train that had 70 cars instead of 100 cars.

I have a 58# bow that I switched to carbon two years ago.  I worked up arrows that penetrate as well at 7 GPP as the other arrows at 10 GPP.  I don't know why, but they do.  I tested them.  And, I like the way they shoot, they're proven effective.

I went out and got a 48# Blacktail and, again, carbon arrows.  They worked up to about 9.5 GPP to get them tuned properly.  I like them.  They work well for me.  I like the way they fly and penetrate.  

As with the 7 GPP, I was really worried about effectiveness because the conventional wisdom is that they won't penetrate.  So, I did controlled tests.  And, I don't know about the physics, but, the tests showed they penetrated as well as the heavier arrows.  

I don't recommend 7 GPP arrows.  I do recommend testing to make sure what you're taking out to hunt is ethical in terms of being an effective killing instrument. That's a personal respondsibility that goes beyond theory, in my opinion.