With all the details about yalls hunts in the highlights section I can't help but notice most of you guys are shooting 500+ grains in total arrow weight.
I know you get more kinetic energy with a heavier arrow, but what I was wondering is where's a trade-off? I mean shooting a heavier head reduces arrow speed, is there a good trade off between speed and weight? As the slower your arrow goes the better the chance the animal will jump the string.
For me I am shooting Easton Traditional Only arrows 400 grain (9.1 gpi) at 28.5" (my draw is 26.5"), and with the feathers, nock, etc. shaft weight is 310 grains and I am torn between shooting a 150 or 200 grain broadhead.
So 150 grain broadhead = total arrow weight 460 grains (is what I am practicing with now)
I thought about switching to SteelForce's 2 blade Phat Head at 190 grains = Total arrow weight is 500 grains.
I am shooting a CTA Red Stag LB 57# @ 28", again my draw is 26.5" so I am pulling probably 53#. With this set up is it advantageous to go even heavier (say 250 - 300 grain broadhead)? Or will I get good penetration with a 'lighter' arrow than most are using?
What you hunting ?
Whitetail deer; haha sorry for that lack of important detail, shoulda known it varies depending on the species! :knothead:
My expereance is both will work fine
There is a perfect point where your KE and Speed max out together, where neither suffers due to the other, a balance you might say. If you go to one of the KE calculators and do some chronographing with your bow using multiple weight arrows you will find the one with the perfect balance for your bow.
Thanks,
yeah I did a little experiment with my set up shooting different weight tips: 100g, 125g, 145g, 175g 200g and 250g.
I shot through my chronograph at 10 yards and calculated the KE and here's my results:
100g = Total arrow weight 410g = 170 fps (Avg) = 26# ke
125g = Total arrow weight 435g = 165 fps (avg) = 26.5# ke
145g = Total arrow weight 455g = 165 fps (avg) = 27#ke
175g = total arrow weight 485g = 161 fps (avg) = 27.5# ke
200g = Total arrow weight 510g = 160 fps (avg) = 29# ke
250g = Total arrow weight 560g = 158 fps (avg) = 31# ke
So I guess around 200 grains is the 'sweet spot', it ups my KE a little and my speed plateaus. What do yall think?
It will be fine for deer. 450 - 500 gr. arrows are fine and will carry a lot of energy out of a 53 lb bow. No real problems until you start reducing the bow weight a bit more or increasing the animal size... Have fun!
Just food for thought for you based on what you listed:
100g = Total arrow weight 410g = 170 fps (Avg) = 26# ke
250g = Total arrow weight 560g = 158 fps (avg) = 31# ke
Jumping from a lightweight 100gr front to 250gr front your speed is lowered by only 12fps. You could loose 12fps by going down in bow weight 5 lbs or by simply shooting a different bow of the same draw weight. What I'm getting at here is that 12 fps really is not going to make a hill of beans difference in your ability to place an arrow accurately at normal traditional-bow hunting distances.
Your kenetic energy however jumps from 26# to 31#, that's a 19% increase in energy at minimal velocity loss. Bows don't kill by creating shock so don't think of energy like you do with firearms. Think of an object at rest will stay at rest or an object in motion will stay in motion until another force causes it to change. Stopping a 31# ke arrow with a SHARP broadhead that cuts through the stuff forcing that arrow to stop moving forward takes a lot longer than stopping a 26# ke arrow with a similar broadhead.
So, by my thinking shooting a heavy arrow helps with penetration which translates into larger wound channels and more blood loss (which is how we kill with archery). The cost for this increased penetration is minimal velocity loss which means a slightly loopier trajectory. If you practice, you learn the trajectory anyway.
Whitetails are thin skinned and not very thick so you should be fine with almost any setup you use as long as you can hit the kill zone accurately. If you have a shot at a larger animal, a hog through it's shield, or maybe hit a bone on the way in, then you might benefit from a higher mass arrow.
I like using 100gr inserts to bring my mass up so that I can still use 125gr heads because I do a lot of small game hunting and like being able to find good 125gr small game broadheads and 125gr screw in Judo points. If I only hunted larger game, I'd probably just use a 250-350gr head and standard inserts to achieve the same higher mass without buying the more expensive brass inserts.
I fell in love with 225 grains up front on my carbons. Carbons tend to be light anyway and the extra "thwack" I get going heavy is worth loosing a little speed.
I'm finding that a more F.O.C. set up flies better than a "balanced" arrow of the same weight. Not sure why but I won't argue with it, LOL!
Hi:
I'm not sure you should be torn between a 150 and 200 grain broadhead based on KE. If it were me, I would be torn between those two choices based upon which broadhead will tune to my bow.
You should realize that the amount of KE is based upon the draw weight of the bow and the length of your draw. So, with the concept of "conservation of energy" when you draw your bow, you always have the same amount of potential energy. When you release, you impart, usually close to 81% of that as Kinetic Energy to the arrow, regardless of the weight.
Now, a lighter weight will make for greater speed. But the energy will be almost the same.
There are several efficiency factors. One is the relative efficienty of imparting that energy to the arrow based on weight. And, yes, there is a very slight loss in efficiency with lighter arrows.
That said, most traditional bowhunters prefer heavy arrows. That is a preference that has become a cultural norm within the community. I've chosen to not follow that norm so readily because I'm interested in a better trajectory. Still, most traditional bowhunters are correct that, at any rate, you should limit the shooting distance. And, as long as you do that, a heavy arrow is not a big handicap.
I'm getting dizzy...
KE is a great sales tool for the wheelie crowd.
I don't recall Papa Bear making a big deal KE. The mantra was, is, and will always be "10g/pp+sharp broadheads+practice so you put 'em where they need to go".
My thought? Tune up your arrows, practice and enjoy the SIMPLICITY of trade gear.
QuoteOriginally posted by Daz:
KE is a great sales tool for the wheelie crowd.
I don't recall Papa Bear making a big deal KE. The mantra was, is, and will always be "10g/pp+sharp broadheads+practice so you put 'em where they need to go".
My thought? Tune up your arrows, practice and enjoy the SIMPLICITY of trade gear.
X2
Right, I understand what you guys are saying. My longest distance I'm planning on shooting is 20 - 25 yards anyway. I read Dr. Ashby's reports as well, as even though KE does play a part, so does broadhead style, friction of the arrows, etc. Certainly shooting a 4 blade broadhead, what I plan on shooting that's 150 grains; Steel Force Hellfire would be easier to stop than a 190 grain Steel Force Phat Head 2 blade.
The only reason why I was torn was I am aware that 2 blade broadheads get more penetration, but 4 blades cause more bleeding, a larger entry and exit hole, etc. If the 150 grain 4 blade can still get a partial passthrough (stick out the otherside) it may be more advantageous than a 2 blade which blows straight through, due to a larger amount damage and bleeding, but however if the lighter 4 blade, does not get partial passthrough and instead remains in the body cavity it may cause more damage, but the animal will bleed internally, and therefore it may be more advantageous to go with the heavier 2 blade to ensure a good followable blood trail.
And you're right GD, that 12 fps doesn't make a huge difference in the drop of that arrow, and with practice can easily be compensated for. I just want to make sure I have the optimum set up for my bow. For, if I go much heavier than 250 grains that it weakens the spine too much and therefore effects the efficiency, so I would need to go with a stiffer shaft (Easton's Trad. Only 340s) with that heavier weight. However since I already spent $150 on a doz of those arrows (400s) and the broadheads, I would like to maximize the efficiency of what i've already got.
Unless you're going after monster deer, like those up north, you have far more than you need with any of the combinations you list. I agree that a well-tuned arrow would be your highest priority. I shoot mostly 2 blade broadheads, but 3 or 4 blades are probably better for deer. You didn't list 3 blade heads, but check out the VPA's. I like higher FOC, but that preference is as much about the flight of the arrow as it is about penetration in deer. Deer are soft-bodied animals, and even light poundage bows shooting light arrows are enough to punch holes through them unless you hit some of the heavier bones or the paunch.
Allan
Thanks Allan, I just went to 2 or 4 blade based off of Dr. Ashby's reports about penetration, as 2 blades got most penetration, then 4 blades then 3 blades, and I buy a lot of my stuff from 3riversarchery (not trying to promote!), and the only steel forces they have there in 3 blades are 100 and 125 grains, but I wanted a little heavier than that I wanted 150 to 200, so I went to the Hellfire 4 blade at 150g, I will shoot a deer with it and see how it performs (how much penetration, etc.) and then worse comes to worse I will switch to the Phat Head (2 blade 190g).
Truth is I just got into traditional archery completely (I shot a little bit as a kid, but only field points), so my experience with different blades is limited, I usually stick to a brand with which i've had luck and for me that's Steel Force fixed blades, I use to use the Premium series broadheads when I was younger and shooting the wheelie, but since I went to a heavier bow with training wheels all I shot was NAP Spitfires (mechanical).
When I bought the Hellfires I shot them alongside my field points, and I acidentally shot a field point first then the broadhead afterwards to compare :smileystooges: :archer2:
So needless to say the hellfire flies good! lol!
I would recommend using whichever of those gave you the best arrow flight. Any of your choices will get the job done, as long as you put it in the chest of that deer.
Lots of great broadheads out there. Fellow Tradgangers could give you a wealth of information on that.
It seems to me that a 3-blade would do the same amount of cutting that a 4-blade would do, so I shoot either 2's or 3's.
Your arrows are fine. Use what flies the best out of your bow. Some North American Native tribes used 30-40 pound primitive bows, small stone heads and relatively light arrows with excelllent results. Excellent results = total penetration with arrow sticking out the other side of the animal.
I'm not saying to go do that. My point is that your set-up is way more effecient and heavier than theirs. Shoot a sharp head accurately and don't sweat it.
I use a 560 grain arrow because it quiets down my bow, not for penetration problems. It does help with penetration, but that isn't why I shoot over 500 grains.
Good luck!
I shoot lighter arrows with my longbow that I use for 3d, around 8gpp. I find for hunting situations as heavy arrow with a good FOC flies better for me than a lighter arrow.
Randy,
Those Hellfires are great broadheads. I have killed several deer with them, and they perform as well as just about any other broadhead for that purpose. And they are less expensive than most. I have said on many occasions that the Hellfires are a "best buy" in a quality, screw-in broadhead. Steelforce makes excellent broadheads. I also have some of the Steelforce Premium single bevel heads, and they are very well made too. The Phat Head Africans are also good broadheads and just about indestructible with the .08" thick blade and steel ferrule.
Based on all the shooting of Asiatic Buffalo that Andy Ivy has done, the 3-blade VPAs penetrate extremely well. I'm not sure what 3-blade Ed Ashby was shooting, but I bet they weren't the VPAs if the 4-blade heads penetrated better in Ed's tests (unless he was using the 4-blade heads where the bleeder blades are tiny little things).
Again, any of the broadheads discussed are more than enough for deer with your bow and arrow combination. You're good to go for elk too, and most other medium-sized game animals.
Allan
All this concern for KE doesn't mean a thing if your arrow is not flying perfectly straight. Shoot the one that is tuned to your bow. Penetration drops quickly if the arrow isn't flying well, even on deer. A well tuned arrow puts all that KE on the point of the broadhead. Choose the one that flies best and go hunting.
As for deer "jumping the string", 200 feet per second is 138 miles per hour, the speed of sound is 755 miles per hour. Your set-up is heavy enough, tune it for perfect flight and QUIET. Heavier arows often help here and I have found after much tinkering that I.M.O. heavier arrows generally provide an all-around better shooting bow.
Thanks for all the input, I guess going from a wheelie where I get passthroughs to a slightly slower longbow put the scare in me on penetration.
I started hunting with it yesterday evening with no luck, I'm going to try again this evening with the hellfires. Yeah with either the 150 or 200g the arrows fly good. I am hitting the vital area of my target almost every shot (sometimes I hit the shoulder).
Those Hellfires look deadly and because I got them to shave I am eager to see what they do! Thanks guys for reassuring me that I shouldn't sweat KE. I am relatively new to Trad archery and hearing that everyone is shooting heavy arrows made me wonder if by going kind of medium-light (~9 gpp), I was making a mistake.
Randy, I shot my first trad deer this year, a small 6 pointer with a CTA red stag 52# @ 28". I draw around 27". The arrow is a beman ics hunter 30" long with a Steelforce 4 blade factory sharpened Hellfire broadhead. Total arrow weight 430 grns. I made a bad shot on it walking away. Arrow hit in front of hips and penetrated to the fletching into the chest cavity slicing a lung and messing up opposite front shoulder area. I know I got lucky, but it was still impressive the damage done.
I killed several deer in the 180lb range with 51# and 475 grain arrows. It should work.LCH
Congrats on your first kill Mad Dog! I had an opportunity last night but the buck was 30 yards away (10 yards out of my comfort zone). Just enough for a teaser :banghead: The wind was blowing 15mph and he was on edge because of all the noise from the wind and he just loped off.
Thanks LCH,
I was just making sure i didn't go too light lol
If I were you I would make one crazy weight forward extra heavy not cut to length super arrow, test it, just to see how you like it in your bow and what you can get out of it, and then go shoot something with those 460 grain arrows you already have. There is a time and a place for everything, but for whitetails don't fret about it, when you have enough power and a good flying sharp arrow, it is time to go have fun.
personally I would go with a 500 spine cut to 28"bop and shoot between 200 to 250 head as your bow would perform better as the 400 spine is to stiff for your bow as your bow is about 53 to 54# at your draw...you would get close to 500 grains with this arrow combo depending on brand of carbon as there are some 500 spines that weigh 9 to 10 gpi