I am going to try to do this, and if it doesn't look like a Campfire Girl reject, I may post pictures. I bought a Puma Hunter's Pal, (or a Western 648 could be used) but am still sorting out the best size and brand of file that could be purchased at any hardware chain that is the best modern equivalent. I know that talented leather crafters could take over this idea and invite them to do this. I have made string keepers, tip protectors, and broadhead covers by recycling old shoe leather, and am looking for tips to do the same for this sheath.
I believe that a modern factory made replica costs several hundred dollars - and that seems obscene. The challenge is to make a "Made in USA" replica that fits a working stiff's budget.
So my first question is:
What is the best file and stone to buy for this project?
the best file would be a small Grobet from 3 Rivrs...about 6 bucks.
Thanks for the tip. I googled "grobet file archery" and came up with these choices:
Grobet Broadhead File At last a file that works on all types of broadheads. F. L. Grobet are precision Swiss made files that will out lasts most files 3 to 1. Available in 6 ", 8" and 12" long. ($5.35, $6.35, $8.95)
File Handle Wooden file handle fits Grobet and most other 6 and 8 inch files ($1.50)
Kustom King Broadhead File At last a file that works on all types of broadheads. Out lasts most files 3 to 1. 6" long with a wooden handle. ($8.50)
Now which of these would be the best pick? (And why did 3Rivers pick a Nicholson?)
Aha - no chain store retailer I could find sells Grobet! Nicholson bastard files sell at Home Depot for the same, but you don't pay the shipping. The shipping costs as much as the file. I will probably order a Grobet, but will be disappointed if it is the same thing as a Nicholson mill bastard that I could pick up today.
Nicholson
12" Mill Bastard File
Item #: 91631 Model: 21842
$8.86
Is this what 3Rivers puts in the high priced replica set?
Now about the stone:
I found this:
Pocket Arkansas Stone
Having a sharpening stone close at hand can is often the key to having a sharp tool. These Arkansas stones are available in Soft Arkansas for fine sharpening and Hard Arkansas for very fine sharpening. These small stones work well in tandem, start with the soft and finish up your edge with the Hard Arkansas. The stones measure 3" long and 1" wide. The leather carrying case keeps your stones protected and ready to use.
each of these are $8.47 and I would guess that the soft stone would be best.
The Norton stones I have researched seem to be too large for this project.
Now the can opener:
P-51 CAN OPENER
THE P-38'S BIG BROTHER.
"The P-51 is the larger version of the P-38 used by mess hall cooks to open the big trays and large cans of chow. Easier to use than the smaller P-38, the P-51 is a full 2" long, the added length affords more leverage and doesn't require as much thumb pressure to use. They are especially good for smaller or arthritic hands (like mine). I prefer them over the P-38s because a P-51 will open cans much easier and faster and will last much longer than the P-38. I have them in every car, on every key-ring and in my 72 Hour Kit. Great for families or friends sending them to their guy's in Iraq & Afghanistan"
MODERN PRODUCTION - BRAND NEW NOT SURPLUS!
MADE BY CURRENT MANUFACTURER US SHELBY CO
STAMPED FROM COLD ROLLED STEEL
100% MADE IN THE USA
These go for .50 each when you buy 10, or you can get the smaller p-38.
sounds like a great idea, I want to see pics when finished, I would go for a Case pocket stone, the I have used
QuoteOriginally posted by TonyW:
I am going to try to do this, and if it doesn't look like a Campfire Girl reject, I may post pictures. I bought a Puma Hunter's Pal, (or a Western 648 could be used) but am still sorting out the best size and brand of file that could be purchased at any hardware chain that is the best modern equivalent. I know that talented leather crafters could take over this idea and invite them to do this. I have made string keepers, tip protectors, and broadhead covers by recycling old shoe leather, and am looking for tips to do the same for this sheath.
I believe that a modern factory made replica costs several hundred dollars - and that seems obscene. The challenge is to make a "Made in USA" replica that fits a working stiff's budget.
So my first question is:
What is the best file and stone to buy for this project?
No disrespect intended, but I can't really understand what it is you're trying to do? 3-Rivers sell the Fred Bear set for $269. The Hunter's Pal usually retails for around $200 on it's own. A Grobet 8" file with custom handle would be around $30, $5 for a decent whetstone, a buck for the can opener. That leaves $33 for a custom made sheath. Where are you saving any money? even if you factored in your time at $5/hr I doubt you'd be able to beat that price/value.
If you're going to try & save a lot, you'd need to make your own blade or find a far, far cheaper alternative.
As I say, no disrespect intended. I thoroughly applaude your idea, just suggesting that it may not be possible to achieve with the Puma knife.
The Hunters Pal lists for $139 on Puma's website.
If I were doing this, I would just copy the concept...use a knife I already own, fit a scrap of osage to a Grobet file, I have 1/2 dozen P-38's laying around. A good small stone is less than $10. I would spend the money on good leather. Not counting the cost of the knife, I don't think you would have to spend $40.
I lOVE that set 3 Rivers sells. But it's just a ton of money to me.
why not try a helle or kellam blade kit, that would save a lot
I've always admired the new set.
Good luck and maybe use a knife you already own.
Have fun...
Roger - you get the point.
Robtattoo
Greetings. My wife is a Worrall from Whitby, North Yorkshire. Her great-uncle, Geoff, was an RAF Meteor pilot who became the chief test pilot for Gloster. You can look it up. I love Yorkshire Pudding - much better tha Mount Desert Island's Jordan Pond popovers.
Now, about your kind offer. I have my $33 ready and am dying to buy the custom sheath. I would buy that in a New York minute. Why doesn't 3Rivers offer them for sale? The custom file I can make - it is a $6 file with a custom handle made from a scrap of wood. A spanking new Puma Hunter's Pal retails for $118, and is readilly available in good used shape for well under $100. I already have one. The can opener is 35 cents. I just bought a Smith's Arkansas stone for $5.98 and a "Made in USA" Nicholson file for $6.73 at Lowe's.
Now the math:
1. $270 plus $15 shipping equals $285.
2. $285 minus the cost of my Puma (or your favorite equivalent knife) equals $285. I don't need another Hunter's Pal. Neither do a thousand other Hunter's Pal owners.
3. $285 - $6 -$7 -35 cents equals $271.65. That makes for a pretty expensive sheath and wooden file handle. Even toss in $100 for a knife and you have a $171.65 sheath!
No disrespect right back at ya, but this is how the cost works out for me. Is it worth $271 of my time to cut a template, stitch a few inches of leather, and fashion a wood handle (if I don't want to buy a ready made wood file handle for $1.50?.) By the way, the only custom Grobet file with a wood handle I could find in my Google was the one in the 3Rivers set. And that was a Nicholson file! The same 8" file I just bought! Oh yeah, and like the sheath, 3Rivers doesn't sell the "custom" file either!
Oh and I don't mean to beat up on 3Rivers. I bought my Bitz and fletching there this summer, even though I could have saved $10 and the wait if I bought them at the local Bass Pro World O' Wheels.
But $200 for a sheath? Come on!
Helle has a very large bladed knife blank, cannot recall the name but if you look at their site, you will see it. It goes for around 30 dollars. It has plenty of metal to grind the shape you want if you do it slow and keep cooling it down.
I am in the process of building my own bowie style knife that I have been coveting for 210 dollars. I have about 40 dollars invested right now and it is turning out pretty neat. plus...I made it myself.
Try it, you might be surprised at the outcome.
ChuckC
Tony, fair play to ya :thumbsup: I didn't realise you could get the Puma & file so cheap, my bad.
I think it's a great idea for a knife set, can't waito see pics when you're done mate!
I put two togather myself Ill post pics this evening if you wish. One is the western knife set. the other is a puma thats the one I use all the time.
Dean
Tonto
Please post the pics. I searched relentlessly on the net, and can only find one pic posted of Fred's design on http://www.mooseran.com. You can't download that picture to study it, and it is much more authentic than the $270 replica. The whole idea is to come up with something that captures the spirit of the original. I noticed that Fred Bear's personal knife and file set placed the P-38 over the Puma sheath and had a cylindrical file or hone nestled to the right of the broadhead file. Any advice you have about this design would be helpful to me or anyone trying to duplicate this.
Think of me like the guy who came to town ready to make stone soup. All we need is a pot, some water, and hey, anybody got a carrot?
In this case, the veggies I'm looking for are ideas, or designs, or tricks of the trade that craftsmen like yourself have already worked out. Just by reading tips in Trad Gang I have began fletching arrows, tuning my bows, and adjusting a myriad of self-taught bad habits.
Now the next question:
What is the best source of leather, and what would be the best grade of leather to use? I recaptured my Boy Scout skills by recycling old shoes, but this project needs at least 10 X 8 pieces of leather.
Tony
Ive been to Mooses house and held that knife. Moose has some awsome items and is a hell of a nice man. He even let me take a photo holding freds personal bow!
My sets are more like the ones they sold in the catalogs to the public.(if I understand correctly the puma sets were not offered to the public) Only I used a puma in my hunting set. I got my file at lowes and added an osage handle. I got a norton stone on ****. Ill post this evening.
Dean
Speaking of "Stone Soup,"
Just got this for $7.65, it looks like the best bet from what Norton offers:
Norton Combo Sportsman Stone
Measures 3" x 1 1/2" x 1/2". A small combination medium/fine grit orange India sharpening stone in a vinyl pouch.
Dean-
That sounds like a great visit! I really like the human side of this, the memories that live in relics made of wood, leather, and bone.
Guess what sacred Fred Bear items Marylanders have to visit? Not what you experienced, only a gawk at some of the pillaged spoils of the Fred Bear Museum draped around merchandise in the local mega-mall Bass Pro Shop.
Very interesting. I started working on the same concept a couple of years ago. Right now the components are just standing by. I have a friend that is a good leathersmith. I'm going to let him examine my new (mid 60's) set to build the sheath from. Mine will be with the Western 648, Norton stone, and Bear file. If I can get something going on it soon I will post to this too, if thats ok. I've got a dandy collector's set new in the box. That is how it will stay! The components I've got would be neat to build a set to carry. Thats been my thinking for several years, just haven't got to it! CKruse
I hope here is a photo of mine.
(http://snap29.photobox.co.uk/46338858e09bf1d108d9de6f97d3272bb755505e187c1df7d83efde5.jpg)
not perfect but I only had photos to go by.
Dean
Dean-
Not perfect, but pretty damned close! Your 648 model looks exactly like Frank Scott's, and the Puma version only needs the P-38 pocket piggybacked on the Puma and a 7" pencil-sized hone pocket stitched right beside the file. Fred Bear would be proud!
CKruse-
Have your leathersmith examine page 16 and 17 of Moose's http://www.mooseran.com. If you posted photos of your collector's sheath, empty and loaded, it would also help with the cause.
Will do... a little later. Thanks, CKruse
Visited the local Tandy Leather Shop today in Essex. The owner, Pat Guercio, was very helpful when I called. "You will need a belly piece," she said. "That's what most people use for sheaths."
When I visited this afternoon, she looked at Dean's pictures,traced my Puma's sheath, and quickly drew a freehand design of the file. "I would do this with one piece of leather. Sew on the pockets for the Norton stone and can opener, fold it over, sew the hone pocket, then the file pocket, and then the knife pocket."
She was interested in the idea, and invited me to come back next Saturday at 10AM and join a free class that would provide all the tools needed to make the sheath. She said to e-mail any pictures I have and she would draw a template this week.
I felt guilty about taking up her time without buying anything, and noticed a scrap pile of spotted cowhide. I picked up several pieces, enough to make rests for a dozen bows, and asked for a price.
"Oh, a buck fifty."
I will try to take some pictures next Saturday and show the process. If anyone has good photos of the original Fred Bear set and the new collector version, please email me at katswal@hotmail.com or post them here. If anybody knows the time of hone Fred Bear used, that is the only piece of the puzzle I am still working on. Based on Moose's photo, it take up the space of a 6" round bastard file.
CORRECTION TO MYSELF
The "type" of hone dummy. What is the "time of hone?"
Here we go, hope these help... CKruse
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/cdkruse/100_1333.jpg)
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/cdkruse/100_1339.jpg)
Two more... CKruse
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/cdkruse/100_1338.jpg)
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/cdkruse/100_1337.jpg)
Another pair...CKruse
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/cdkruse/100_1335.jpg)
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/cdkruse/100_1334.jpg)
And the components...CKruse
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/cdkruse/100_1336.jpg)
The sheath is 9.75" inches from the square corner of the bottom to the top of the belt loop fold. It is 1.875" wide at the belt loop. These pictures are not the best, but I didn't get to them before dark. I wanted to take them outside, they would have been clearer.
The Norton pocket stone is 4" L x .075 W x .025 T. I hope this helps a little. CKruse
Thanks CKruse - this helps a lot. It would be nice to make one that could be used. I am still having trouble tracking down a source for a Norton stone with your specs. I will design the sheath based on these measurements if anyone can confirm that they are still available. So far the best one I found was an inch shorter, a bit wider, and much thicker. Do they still make these 4 x.75 x 0.25 inch orange Nortons?
I am trying to make this set so it can be maintained with modern equivalents as well as New Old Stock. I think Bear added a ceramic or diamond hone to his personal set, and I think I found a modern equivalent. The old Bear files are hard to come by, but I think I can fashion a similar handle from wood to fit to a new file.
I believe Norton makes some stones of that dimension. They are probaly for a specific application, and may not be listed as a general use "pocket stone". You may check with them or one of the big tool suppply outfits like Fastenal or Grainger etc. I have two new extras that appear nearly exact to the originals, but are about 1/16" wider. They were ones that were made up for different companies as advertising, with the company logos on the little plastic slip cover. I need to get off my butt and get with my guy to try and make a couple up. This is a very worthy project, in my estimation. Let me know if I can help you out more. CKruse
Using your measurements, I just found the modern equivalent that is easy to buy online from Midwest Knifemakers Supply, LLC :
Pocket stone FINE INDIA 1/4"x 3/4" x 4"
Norton pocket stone. Our smallest, lightest stone. Includes pouch. Use this where size and weight matter $4.77
http://s190.photobucket.com/albums/z117/katswal/?action=view¤t=nortonstone.jpg
Tony, good find on the stones. The files you want will be a 6" single cut mill bastard. They will be just under 8" OAL with the tang. I have a handfull I picked up cheap at the flea markets. They include Nicholson, Disston, Atkins, and Bluegrass. I hope to make some osage and other handles for them. The Grobet has the best reputation, but these seem very serviceable and were cheap!
Thanks for the tip. I could never have come up with the right search criteria for the file until you posted. Based on what I read on their website, I think that Midwest Knife just started to carry them this year.
Thanks for your advice on the file. I looked over the 6 and 8 inchers, and even though an 8 inch file could pair up with the knife, you would have to grind or hacksaw the file handle, and then fit the stub into a wood handle to match the knife. I am a complete novice on the art of file sharpening, but from what I read I also think that the 6" file would get the job done in the field. Please correct this info if I am wrong. It looks like Fred Bear added a pencil sized knife sharpener hone, and I will post pictures when I find a likely one.
What has turned out nice about this project is finding items that everybody can get for a few bucks - that was the original idea a few decades ago! It also can be easily customized to fit the personality and needs of the user.
Here is a "Fred Bear" like set I made a couple of years ago:
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/takedown/Harrys%5BIMG%5D%3Cbr%20/%3E%3Cbr%20/%3E%20%5Bimg%5Dhttp://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/takedown/HarrysHuntingphotos013.jpg)
I used a EZ Lap Diamond Stick type hone rather than a hone stone. This works great on knives and broadheads.
Took a bit of trial and error to get the whole kit to go together, but it has been a very useful bit of gear!
Harry
I'll try to get the other photo to come up!
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y20/takedown/HarrysHuntingphotos004.jpg)
Hope this works!
Harry
I just ordered the Puma Hunters Pal. Where I got it, the total cost with shipping was $48.96. I've been wanting to make a set for years, and when I seen the Puma for that price, I jumped on it. I already have all the other components.
Takedown -
Nice work. I like the stag handled file, and I will probably use a similar hone. I will add a P-38 can opener for tradition, but your knife-file-hone sheath is elegantly designed. Your set is out there, on the job, not gathering dust in a showcase
I prefer the extra leverage of a Swiss army knife can opener, but somebody has to keep the people making the P-38s in business.
Thanks, Tony.
I have used this kit for about three years on several deer and to resharpin broadheads as well.
I have other, better knives, but I always belt this on anyway! LOL This knife is an old Cutco I bought on e-bay for $12.00 including shipping!
I'll give you some tips. If you dont have a Tandy's near you, you can sometimes get good leather (oak tanned/vegitable tanned saddle skirting)from a tack repair shop. I visit a couple of places who set up at the local Horse Track during meets.
If you are in cowboy country, visit a saddleshop. Many times I have bought nice sized pieces for just a couple of dollars. Try to get stuff about
3/16" to 1/8" thick. It is sturdy and will "wet mold" real well. A couple of simple tools and you are in business.
Make sure you glue in a welt between the pieces to protect the stitching and to provide a little seperation so as not to "pinch" the knife blade or the file too much! Experiment with paper patterns and you will be suprised at the results.
I use fiebings leather dyes ( I like british tan) available at shoe repair shops or Tandy's and I use Montana Pitch Blend as a finish.
Good luck.
Harry.
Tony, I'm a little sorry now that I chimed in on this thread.
"Your set is out there, on the job, not gathering dust in a showcase."
I guess we are all entitled to an opinion, so here's mine: I've collected Bear Archery bows, quivers, and other items for several years. I use a great deal of these items for hunting and recreation, but enjoy displaying others. When I was able to acquire this set for about the same money that a poor condition set usually sells for, I was elated. The only other set I've ever seen in this condition brought a kings ransom on the auction site. So, I've got other knives, files, etc. that see regular duty use. If I offended anyone by posting the first two pictures, I will remove them. I realize they did not serve the purpose of the post. Sorry for the long post, I just felt that comment was uncalled for after I had done my best to help. Sincerely, CKruse
CKruse
I apologize for my thoughtless comment. It was not aimed at your Grayling collection. I should have made it more clear, but I thought you knew I admired your set. The new $270 collector sets are so overpriced that they are the ones "gathering dust in a showcase."
Case in point. I have a Gainesville Bear Super Kodiak commemorative bow signed by Frank Scott. I am afraid to shoot it, and use 30 and 40 year old previously owned Super Kodiaks. I would not use a Grayling Super Kodiak if it was mint in the box.
I posted the info about modern equivalents to encourage people to make sets that capture the spirit of the set. Any home-built version is not meant to ridicule true collector's items - we all cherish those - but encourage items to be made and used by everybody.
I thought you had the same idea, but I understand how my praise for Takedown's set could be misconstrued.
My old Bear items that are near mint do not "gather dust in a showcase," because I like to handle them and show them to my friends. But just like you, I would like to make an affordable, replaceable, abuseable set that would be used in the field. If anything, these modern replicas pay tribute to the Grayling originals.
You are right. My comment was tactless. Please accept this mea culpa - it is from the heart.
Tony, thanks for your kind words, and consider the matter done. I guess I may have been having a tough day! If I can help in any further way, don't hesitate to ask. This is the best group on the internet, with the greatest folks to be found. I will try to get to work on my replica set, and maybe have something further to post soon.
Thanks,CKruse