I have just switched to shooting 3 fingers under. I was having problems with consistency and an instructor suggested a few things to help to improve my groups. After trying 3 fingers under I have noticed enough of an improvement to keep shooting this way. I am using a Bear Montana long bow and I have noticed the bow has become louder with the change. I asked at my local archery shop and nobody could offer advice as to why. I was also wondering if placing a second noch on the string below the arrow would help to have a repeatable place to put my top finger without having it tight against the arrow noch? If so should I leave a small gap so it doesn't pinch the arrow tight between the nochs?
Almost every bow that i have had is louder 3 under. Some more noticable then others, but for me that was always the case. Be sure to check nocking point if you havent already because it typically changes when shooting 3 under compared to split.
I usually put a brass nock above the arrow nock, and some serving below it.
Should the nocking point be lower or higher with the changed grip? I will put a serving nock below, do you put yours tight against the arrow or leave a little room?
The nocking is typically higher when shooting 3 under. Also, you want about a 1/16th to 1/8th inch gap or spacing so there won't be any pinching.
I shoot my longbows 3-under, but have experimented with split. It's just not comfortable for me. I have shot 3-under for years and I'm just used to it so I'm sticking with it.
That said 3-under is certainly louder than split, but I have yet to hear a good answer as to why. I asked this over on the Howard Hill Bug thread a day or so ago. I've also researched it quite a bit and can't find a logical answer, but the consensus is that split is usually quieter.
As for nocking points, I tie two knots out of thread. I set my bottom knot so that the top of it is at 1/4". I then tie the upper knot so that it is just snug against the arrow nock. I have noticed that arrow flight is less consistent if there is some play between the arrow nock and the knots.
Also I sand my arrow nock throats down so that they lightly grasp the string. They aren't tight. I like mine so that a nocked arrow when pointed towards the ground releases from the string with a light tap of the hand.
I think all of these little tweaks really help with arrow flight consistency. Good luck and let us know if you figure out why split is quieter.
If your bow isn't tillered for 3 under you need a higher nocking point than for split finger as a rule. I set mine around 5/8 in. and nock the arrow under but yours may differ. I have a Toelke SuperD longbow that is tillered for 3 under and it's as quiet as they get. The noise has to do with the tiller of the bow. 3 under is even and split is positive on 1 limb but i forget which. The higher nocking point helps to make up the difference.
I switched to 3 under and ended up having my longbow retillered for it. The cost was well worth it in my opinion as the bow is now whisper quiet. A bow that has already been tillered for split will need to have the top limb weakened slightly as 3 under puts more tension on the bottom limb when drawn. This can be alleviated slightly by raising the nock point but a properly tillered bow will always be quieter.
Thanks for all of the advice. I have tied a second nock point and will try moving the top nock up and see if it quiets the bow. I don't mind a little more noise to gain better accuracy and consistency. I will post my progress.
i re tillered my main bow, and i find my nocking point a lot closer to 90 degrees now.
Yep, tiller has to have stronger lower limb for 3 under to help eliminate noise. Unless asked for I believe most bows are tillered to accomidate split finger release.
Actually I believe the bottom limb needs to be weakend slightly to achieve an even tiller for 3 under. Also my opinion as to increased noise is that the limbs are bottoming out at different times with 3 under, for lack of any other reason I have heard.
Can't explain the extra noise but my bows which are tillered for split are quieter when shot that way. I am a 3 under shooter though. I've talked with a couple of well-known bowyers who contend that most other bowyers "over"tiller and they always tiller even (regardless of shooting style) and that that a 3 under shooter simply needs to adjust the nocking point up to 'correct' the even tiller to account for 3 under. (i respectfully disagree as i've never been able to manage the 'quiet' shooting under with these bows that i can if i shoot split.
mg
yup al i concur- after much deliberation on the bowyers bench- a bow should be tillered even for three under.
sure would like to hear from a few pro bow makers here.
Another thought: If an adjustment on the nocking point is "all that is needed" wouldn't it almost HAVE to be the width of a finger? - that's how much the hand moves "up" the string when we move from three under to split - right? How wide is the avg finger? - more than a "small" change in my opinion.
good post
mg
ok so i only had half the story- or so it seems. my osage bow that i currently shoot- shoots really well and quiet- but i think i was lucky- after reading the attached post- this has given me a new perspective for the bows that i am starting right now.
read this!!- really informative
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=008687
Even tiller is best for 3 under, but before you go to the trouble of having your bow retillered you might consider raising your brace height in small increments to see if you can eliminate the noise.
My bows all shoot just as quiet three under as with split fingers.
Also, put a bow square on your bow and mark it where you now have your nocking point. Move it up 1/8 and see what effect it has. You might consider doing a bareshaft test to see if your arrows are porpoising. (nock moving up and down). If so, move the nocking point up or down until it disappears.
Only after you have done the above without it correcting the noise should you consider having the bow retillered.
Do you know how to check tiller?
Art
Lots of good information here. I shoot 3-fingers under and haven't experimented with split because the comfort advantages for me are too great to give up. Most of my bows are tillered for split-finger because they weren't made for me.
I don't have any complaints with noise after tuning.
Positioning of nocking locators should be completely based upon tune rather than noise abatement. When the nock locator (top one) is in the proper location porpoising is eliminated. This is the easiest thing to correct via paper tuning for me. I usually end up at 5/8" above horizontal.
I use bowstring thread (old bowstrings can be dismantled for material) for both the top and the lower nock locator. A slight gap once the nock is placed between the locators is important, as pointed out above, the more "pinch" (greater "V") in your string at full draw.
Personally, I'd never use a brass nock locator again. I've thrown all my old ones away.
Thanks Art for the instruction. I will try adjusting the nock point and bare shaft test. when I find the sweet spot I will adjust the brace height and see if that changes things. The brace height is set at the minimum suggested by the manufacturer. I don't think there is a chance to retiller the bow as it is a fiberglass backed Bear Montana. I appreciate all the input and help, I was getting very frustrated with my lack of accuracy and improvement and hopefully some adjustments and tuning will help. Changing to 3 fingers under has helped a great deal.
QuoteOriginally posted by Al Dean:
Actually I believe the bottom limb needs to be weakend slightly to achieve an even tiller for 3 under. Also my opinion as to increased noise is that the limbs are bottoming out at different times with 3 under, for lack of any other reason I have heard.
X2
I adjusted my nock point for best arrow flight and lengthened the brace height, the bow has quieted down slightly so I'm going to leave it alone. Now I just need to practice. Some days I think I should go back to one of those things with the cams on it but I know one day I will show enough improvement to make the change a happier one. I think it is the fact that it is so challenging that keeps me going.
Practice when it's tuned how you're gonna hunt with it. A lot of the fun when starting out is learning to make your set-ups accurate and then quiet. I shoot 3 under and it takes tweaking, but it's worth it to play around 'til you're satisfied. Lots of good advice above, keep askin' away...
Al Dean is correct as far as Tiller is concerned!
I have tillerd every bow I built to an even tiller and I shoot 3 under. Have friends that shoot them split finger and they have no problems with them.
QuoteOriginally posted by Chortdraw:
I have tillerd every bow I built to an even tiller and I shoot 3 under. Have friends that shoot them split finger and they have no problems with them.
I'm not having any problems with my bow just a notable difference in sound. Not sure if it is really louder but the pitch is definitely different.
Yeah, when i switched to 3 under. . . definately noticed an increase in noise. But, the increase in accuracy helped make it tolerable.
rcoulas - hang in there, it's worth the effort. A couple years from now you'll wonder what you were thinking to ever shoot one of those wheelie arrow flinging devices.
As mentioned, 3 under usually requires a higher nocking point, especially if you're shooting very heavy point weight (200 gr+). You might need your nock point as high as almost 1" above square, your arrow nocked under it.
I will not go back to a wheel bow, It's just one of those plateaus I'm sure we all reach and my shooting will improve over time. Switching to 3 under has started the ball rolling in the right direction.
rcoulas once you get your bow where you want it check out some of rick welch's videos, i'm only saying this because i was starting out like you and trying to get some kind of repeatable form and was doing ok but after learning to use a second anchor like the feather to my nose my accuracy improved greatly.
Originally posted by Al Dean:
Actually I believe the bottom limb needs to be weakend slightly to achieve an even tiller for 3 under. Also my opinion as to increased noise is that the limbs are bottoming out at different times with 3 under, for lack of any other reason I have heard.
X2
X3
QuoteOriginally posted by 3undr:
rcoulas once you get your bow where you want it check out some of rick welch's videos, i'm only saying this because i was starting out like you and trying to get some kind of repeatable form and was doing ok but after learning to use a second anchor like the feather to my nose my accuracy improved greatly.
I watched some video clips and used the new knowledge to change my anchor and include a second point. I noticed an improvement in accuracy right away. Thanks for the advice.
Randy
Cheers for this thread guys. I've just experimented with raising my nocking point and a couple of other little tips picked up from this thread and can notice a definite improvement in constancy.
Another little piece of the puzzle has slotted into place.
I would put a nock under the arrow and just give it a light squeeze so it still slides,, now put an arrow on the string and draw it back so the nock slides to where it needs to be and then squeeze it tight right there--- now get a file and carefully file any sharp edges off those nocks so one doesn't eventually cut your glove.
According to John at Black Widow all the BW bows are now and have been for quite a while tillered the same , you just tune the bows by raising the nock for 3-under. he said this is true for their recurves as well as their longbows
QuoteOriginally posted by LarryP243:
According to John at Black Widow all the BW bows are now and have been for quite a while tillered the same , you just tune the bows by raising the nock for 3-under. he said this is true for their recurves as well as their longbows
and you'll notice since they did this more people complained about the bows being loud,, I've owned 4 of them but a friend who shot 3 under owned two and had to sell them where he thought they where way too loud in the woods shooting at a something with ears
I can't explain why but I thought my bows were quiet until I started shooting split. Even my longbows that were tillered for three under all became deathly quiet! I tried everything previously but could not seem to get them as quiet as I like.
i have always shot 3 under and most of the bows i shoot are tillered split. that said i can get them pretty quiet but never as quiet as my friend who shoots split finger.that's just the price i pay for shooting 3 under lol never had a bow tillered 3 under but i think it would be more quiet
Most of my bows aren't that noticable noise wise shooting three under.
I have a Hummingbird L/B that is very noticable and was one of my favorites when I shot split finger. I'm thinking seriously of having it re tillered for 3 under.
With that said my Hummingbird TD likes 3 under.I just can't see ever going back to split finger.
I'm no Bowyer, but I would think that 3 fingers under would put more stress on the lower limb, there by creating more resinance, in the upper limb and string= noise
I also have shot three under for years. I have come to think that the range of tune for quite shooting is smaller than when shooting split. In other words silencer placement and brace height etc are a bit less forgiving. Get them in the right spot and you will have a quite shooting bow.
Shoot a lighter ring finger for three under. This will create the same string triangle as split. Where second finger is last on the string . If you have too , duct tape your ring finger straight.
If one shoots a heavy ring finger using three under then they will bend the bottom limb further thus making it shorter on even tiller. Moving nock up higher reduces this but also REMEBER to slightly build your rest up same height as you moved your nock up....BINGO
Or slap on a stick on rest!!!!!!
Good luck