I have been researching the thickness of different broadheads and it raised a question to me. Is there any correlation between the thinkness of a single bevel head and amount of rotation upon impact? Giving they are the same degree bevel.
Yes, you'll get more rotation out of a thicker blade. That's why the best single bevels are usually at least .050" thick.
Thicker blade = more bevel surface = greater rotational force and degree.
Stands to reason that the thicker blade would rotate more. I might add that I'm a skeptic as to whether the value of rotation is significant.
yep, the thin blades just don't have as much slanted edge pushing the head around.
maybe you've been a trad hunter for years and have forgotten more about it than I'll ever know, maybe you haven't..but just in case...here are a couple thoughts I'll give up in true sincerity.
I wouldn't let the amount of rotation influence your broadhead choice much unless you're going after BIG RIB BONED game. Even then I'd be thinking thicker=stronger...the added rotation for bone breaking is just a bonus.
I have a very inquisitive mind and I like to research all the details of things for fun.
I've done it for a few years in this trad way of hunting.
if your curiosity gets the best of ya research away buddy.
But speaking from experience, after thinking...a whole lot of research, actual sleepless nights with my mind whirring trying to figure the absolute best of everything....
It get's so much more fun and relaxing once you realize you just need a straight shooting arrow with a sharp broad head...darn near any broadhead.
...and some practice..lol
Good luck in the woods!
:archer2:
I don't know if fletching is sufficient to cause rotation in a 2 bevel-never really noticed any.
Pulling a single bevel out of a target the rotation is obvious so a single bevel should fly better.
If it hits bone a single bevel might act like an axe blade splitting wood.
You can get a better cutting edge on a single bevel; although these days most 2 blades are really well done.
QuoteOriginally posted by Charlie Lamb:
Stands to reason that the thicker blade would rotate more. I might add that I'm a skeptic as to whether the value of rotation is significant.
Spoken like a man that has piled them up for a long time without the new stuff! :clapper:
QuoteOriginally posted by Charlie Lamb:
Stands to reason that the thicker blade would rotate more. I might add that I'm a skeptic as to whether the value of rotation is significant.
Charlie, I asked Blake Fischer, owner of Eclipse broadheads the thickness question. There is an optimum thickness and that is what the Werewolves are. I want to say .050". I bet if a guy was to measure any Abowyer, Eclipse single bevel or ABS broadhead, they would be that thickness, whatever it is if my memory does not have the right figure. More othickness or r less, you do not get as much bang for your buck.
On the rotation issue, I have been in the same camp until I attended a seminar by Dr. Ashby at Kalamazoo this past January. He demonstrated something he called (I think this is what he called it) the "spiderweb" effect. He took a hankerchief and wrapped it around the head, then pulled it thru, simulating animal internal tissue. He opened up the hanky and it looked like cheesecloth...it was amazing! I think Bill Dunn or Todd Smith have it somewhere here or on their site archived. I will dig a round after the trick or treaters are done and see if I can find it.
X2 with eveything Bjorn said. Ecspecialy ewith the axe effect ob bone. But, I got a question. If the broadhead is shot into a fleshy non consitent medium like animals, what makes it keep twisting if the "target medium" isn't hard enough for the broadhead to track. The theory of the single bevel is that the medium is what causes the broadhead to continue to track in reference to the bevels right? If it if going through soft organs, how are those organs "tracking" the head when they are soft and being cut out of the way. Demonstrations for thiis can't be mimicked by hankerchiefs or anything else. When I open up my animals they are bloddy, clotty messes that look like cheese clothes. Just wandering. God Bless
The greatest tendency to rotate will be through the firmer mediums, as they provide enough resistance to the bevel for it to 'push off' and rotate. The unknown is what type of counterrotational forces might be present at a given moment...working to impede rotation. Greatest rotation (at a given moment) will be when the medium is firm toward the bevel and softer away from it. In a consistent medium, rotation will be consistent, but it will also decrease as the medium gets extremely soft (say inside the gut) or hard (inside a bone). There will be a point of optimal rotation, though impossible to find it in a multi-density living animal with all the inherent variables.
Trust me....Holiday Inn Express guy. ;)
Yep, the more solid the medium the more "twisting power" you get.
..but the twist will still be there in softer mediums like lungs.
if you blew air by it fast enough even it would cause the arrow to spin.
if you happen to have a single bevel cooking/chef's knife, try cutting a straight "chop" through a few different things..cheese, butter (cold and soft), tomatoes, you'll then be able to see and feel what happens.
truly though, I believe this stuff doesn't make or break a good kill shot unless you're hitting BIG thick cape buff like ribs and you need em to CRACK and let your arrow through.
I pretty much poo-poo'd all the single bevel advantages untill I saw what an Abowyer Brown Bear did to a solid black bear shoulder/knuckle. If I am going to shoot a 2 blade, it will have a single bevel and it will be an Abowyer.
X2 what Steve O said.
I have seen some good, bad, and ugly results on elk over the years with various heads. Single bevels have made my last 4 elk clean, deeply penetrated kills.
With that said, I doubt on whitetails it makes much of difference except in the knuckle area.
OK, I just did some looking. It is the bevel ANGLE that is optimum at 25 degrees. All three companies heads I mentioned are at 25 degrees. The ABS and Abowter heads are .072" thick and the Eclipse single bevel Werewolves are .057" thick.
Will look for that other info still.
OK, I forgot one of the really GOOD guys in traditional archery...Joe Furlong of Tuffhead Broadheads. His site is like an encyclopedia of single bevel info. His heads are .060" thick with a 25 degree bevel. He has all kinds of links and info on the site.
I did find a youtube video of part of Dr. ashby's Kzoo presentation. It is the "Starburst Effect" that I was trying to remember.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6BLX3zlJkk&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Thanks for the link Steve, it was an interesting video.
No problem.
Here is a link to Joe's "education" page:
Single Bevel Info page (http://www.tuffhead.com/education/education_main.html)
I sat front and center at Ashby's seminar, and man was it A LOT of info to digest in the time he had to explain his research and findings. I'm glad they recorded and made available to us this awesome amount of info. I know it sure changed my way of thinking. Thanks for the video links Steve.
I figure Ashby's data has enough strength to make using a single bevel my choice if I shoot a two blade. If I hit a shoulder blade, or knuckle the added advantage might make the difference in a recovered animal.
I shot some single bevels through a small steel propane tank, not the same as ribs I know. But, to my surprise the edge rolled over and the head only penetrated one side of the tank. A Zwickey Eskimo punched right through both sides and still had an edge. How much energy or penetration do you give up by the friction causing the rotation? The thickness of the blades? I shot one elk with a single bevel and didn't have great penetration. I think the thicker blades impeded the penetration. I personally want a artery slicer, not a bone chisel. At least on this continent. That being said, I'm not a doctor, I just like to play doctor! I could be completely wrong! :dunno:
Thanks for posting the link to those videos. I'm watching the whole presentation now!
When I shoot any broadhead into foam, two or three blade, it is easy to see that the cuts have a twist or rotation to them. These are all double bevel.
I keep hearing about the "s" from single bevel heads, but I see it plenty with the others. Am I missing something?
QuoteOriginally posted by kbetts:
When I shoot any broadhead into foam, two or three blade, it is easy to see that the cuts have a twist or rotation to them. These are all double bevel.
I keep hearing about the "s" from single bevel heads, but I see it plenty with the others. Am I missing something?
Yes.
You are seeing residual spinning from the fletching on the double bevel head. When a double bevel enters an object, the force on both sides of the blade is equal. I will try to compare these to parts of a Super Cub you are taking to your moose drop off spot. The double bevel is just like the wheel of the Super Cub. When you are flying, the force of the wind going around the wheel is equal on the top and bottom, therefore the wheel, even though it is on a free wheeling ball bearing, sits perfectly still.
The single bevel has different forces on it, like the wing of the Super Cub. This produces the rotation of the broadhead similar to the lift on the plane's wing keeping you airborne.
To prove this to yourself, take a double bevel and single bevel head and push it into meat or foam with your hand and allow the head to follow it's own path and compare. You will find the double bevel goes straight in with no roatation about the axis of the shaft and the single bevel will go straight in WITH rotation about the axis of the shaft.
It is all physics and physics does not change.
ok- so the million dollar question- which are the best single bevel broadheads Then?
those tuffheads do look awesome- but they all seem a tad heavy for what i like
So single bevel has inherent benefits. I Like the 3:1 ratio of tuff head just would like a screw on head to avoid alignment issues with broadbed adapters. Looks like the largest vpa is approaching the same shape. I just don't feel like my snuffers will ever be able to be sharpened to the level of single bevel two blade. Only concern with large two blade is planing in wind. May be stupid question but if I'm aiming at heart lung region do I want my broadhead veering as it courses through flesh? In market for this style broadhead thanks for info let's keep discussion going.
QuoteOriginally posted by fujimo:
ok- so the million dollar question- which are the best single bevel broadheads Then?
those tuffheads do look awesome- but they all seem a tad heavy for what i like
Yep, Tuffheads look top notch. I am partial to Abowyers because I have been to the shop many times and have seen how they are made and have used them and have seen how well they work first hand. See here:
Abowyer Tour (http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=108309;p=4)
I agree when it comes to single bevel Abowyer Brown Bears are top notch-for us they have been killer on Hogs and Elk.
those glue on brown bears sure do look good!!
Ok, so that Ashby presentation on YOutube sure convinced me of single bevels effectiveness. I'm planning on using them for my pig hunts this winter. However, since I'm getting ready for some turkey hunting coming up soon I'm wondering about 2 blade single bevel BHs for Turkeys? Ashby didn't do tests on turkeys did he (or ostriches in Africa?!)
Is there an anatomical difference with birds (turkey in particular) that would change the balance between which head is more preferred for consistent lethal shots?
Previously I have been planning on using some VPA 250gn 3 blades or big Snuffers, subscribing to the idea that more cutting area on turkey gives you a bigger margin of error for hitting the small vitals. I have been reading through Guru and other turkey hunter's posts trying to plan my setup and up until now I have been pretty set on 3 blades. But maybe the single bevels rotation, "s" shaped hole, superior penetration, and the crazy "starburst" tissue damage effect will compensate for fewer blades?
What do you all think? How does this single bevel stuff apply to gobblers?
I can't think of any reason I would use anything other than a BIG Snuffer on a turkey. Unless you are a 2 blade for everything kind of guy.
Steve, wouldn't it be fun to be a "picker" in that shop? I picked up a riser from Larry a few years back and one, I wanted to run the CNC machine and two I wanted to look in the corners and behind this and that looking for cool stuff.
But in the end I'm in the Charlie Lamb group. Hunt Sharp and all is good.
CJ
Steve,
I'm a newbie and have yet to take a turkey but from all I have read on here and have reasoned to myself in my brain is telling me to stick with a big 3blade. But,... I still want to hear from anyone who has used single bevel 2 blades on turkey. Just curious.
Marrley, if it helps...i just shot a turkey this year with the bow I just sold you. It was a 515 gr arrow with a double bevel Ace head. Broke bones and sliced through like the turkey wasn't there.
From what I understand, a single bevel would do even better.
What have you guys shooting single bevel broadheads been seeing? Are you getting the "L" shaped cuts? Do you think you are getting better blood trails? Has anyone shot through the shoulder blade of a deer or an elk? If people are getting better blood and quicker kills, I would try them again. Thanks.
the ultimate question hawk- i will be watching this thread- i am also on the cusp of switching over- currently just switched from two blades to wensel woodsmans.
I've killed 3 this year with single bevels 1 with a tuff head and 2 with a standard 160 grizz. Both shots with the grizz where perfect. 1 was quartering toward me entered top of shoulder flat and exited ribs. Arrow never slowed down with a 50 lb bow and 645 grain arrow. 2 was perfect broadside just thru ribs no problem
The doe I shot with the tuff head was a bad shot. She was broadside and when I released she took a step. I hit her in liver and gut. She took off maybe 50 yd and stopped. Stood a minute then laid down. Laid a minute then just went over to her side. This deer never kicked "something I have never seen after 70 + deer with a bow"
When I gutted her, her insides where black. I'm guessing from a mixture of liver and gut. But the sharpness of the single bevel. This makes about 12 in the last few years with a sb and all have had larger holes then one would think with a small 2 blade. Has far as blood trails I've guess I've been lucky. Never had a problem But my broad heads are crazy sharp. And the deer don't go far
I am currently experimenting with single bevel heads. I am a long time lover of the big Magnus 2 blade heads, and recently the 200 grain Ace heads. I have had a bunch of deer kills with both, and my notes show something disturbing....although most of my deer kills have been complete pass thru "no problem" situations, when bone is contacted (about 25% for me) penetration suffers.
So I have bought some Tuff Heads from Joe, and Todd Smith graciously gifted me an Alaskan Bowhunter Ashby head and a matching field point. I just started gathering these things this week, so I haven't killed anything with them yet.
I have killed a few deer with the old Grizzly heads, and I didn't care for them, because the batches I had seemed to have inconsistent steel hardness, and that made sharpening a chore.
These heads, both the Tuff Head and Alaskan Bowhunters head, seem to be of absolute superior quality to any head I have used.
I respect opinions like Charlies a great deal....my notes are telling me to dig deeper, and create a better arow FOR ME.
Arrows are flying well, I may be hunting with them tonight. We shall see. Great thread.
P.S....these heads aren't "magic" they aren't going to make every bad shot a good one. The broadhead is ONE PIECE of my personal search. I am also looking hard at my shaft choices and bow weight. I have already concluded light weight bows (less than 57#) are not for me when it comes to big game.
Well said Roger. I have only taken two bears with the single bevel heads. The first one sold me. I hit so much solid shoulder, I am 100% sure my normal Snuffer or Woodsman would NOT have gone thru. That Abowyer Brown Bear was devastating as it went thru the shoulder and knocking a fifty cent piece sized exit hole in the opposite ribs. Excellent blood trail of maybe 75 yards. The 2nd bear was a +300 rutting boar and I did not notice the blood trail because he made a roar and two bounds and was down and OUT!
The steel on the Abowyers, Tuffheads, and Eclipse are beyond good and they are surgical instruments from what I have seen and felt. I am sure the new Grizzly's Bill Dunn is making are top notch, because he is not going to turn out anything less.
Nowadays I am more into quality than quantity, so I am not the best guy to talk about blood trails...my sample size is not going to show a lot.
I still love my Snuffers and Woodsmen. My experimentation with the single bevel broadheads has told me they work great. As I said before, IF I am in a situation where I want to use a two blade, I will use a single bevel as there are no disadvantages to them. Why not :campfire:
This is very interesting stuff guys. I'm definitely going to be trying a few of the Abowyer heads this year...Still not sure about my turkey arrows though...Season opens on turkeys in a week, I will probably stick with my VPA 3 blades but am really curious about single bevel BHs on turkeys.
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=5umxVy7uhLM&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D5umxVy7uhLM
I found this single bevel sharpening video. Looks great.
Well the rotation is definately there. Here are entrance and exit pics of a Centaur right bevel Big Game Head.
The entrance in the hide is almost horizontal.
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f281/brdeano/2012-11-04_12-19-49_438.jpg)
You can see here that the blade has rotated some while going through the entrance side chest. It is the hole on the right, the left is not a hole just some clotted blood.
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f281/brdeano/2012-11-04_13-36-44_602.jpg)
Exit side chest is vertical so you can see that it rotated more while going through the lungs/heart. Actually if you look at it close you can see through the hole and what you see on the other side is the entrance. Very easy to see the rotation.
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f281/brdeano/2012-11-04_13-39-05_457.jpg)
Here is the exit side hide and its almost horizontal again.
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f281/brdeano/2012-11-04_12-19-09_385.jpg)
Before I cut this buck up I thought the arrow stopped spinning as the hide side exit and entrance were basically on the same plane. After pulling the hide off it was very evident that wasn't the case and the broadhead was rotating on its way through.
Thanks for the photos. Very illuminating!
This discussion has raised another question for me. Will a 3" broadhead rotate more than say a 2 1/2" head?
Well, I am not going to dust off any old textbooks for that...
I do firmly believe a longer broadhead will result in a better blood trail because there is more effective cutting area.
Interesting question...The width and the size of the bevel face seem like they might influence the degree of rotation.
I personally still want to hear from someone who has shot turkey with a single bevel. Just curious like that I guess...and cause turkey is the next thing I get to hunt.
I started hunting with Abowyer brown bears this year. So far I've taken only one deer. I didn't see any evidence of the "L" shaped cut, even though I hit high and far back with a liver only shot. The broad head did rotate as promised. That being said, the deer went 15 yards and laid down and in 10 minutes it was over. I would have sent another arrow into it but had a lot of brush between us. Would a Simmons shark or a 3 blade done any better? Maybe if it had a wider cutting width being as I didn't hit any bone.
As far as using a single bevel for turkey, I wouldn't do it. Single bevel's claim to fame is penetration. How much penetration do you need on a turkey? Anything over 12" is over kill. A tree shark or Snuffer would be better, IMO.
i am using a single bev battle axe this year best of both big head and single bev yet to kill a deer but devastated a yote last wk with it made a bigger whole than my go 2 heads snuffer 160 and 145s hope to get a deer though really want to see the effect
I may be mistaken but the bevel is what impacts rotation not the head size....so more surface area may restrict the rotation as it is putting more surface area against the bone/muscle.....like much easier to spin a wheel with 1/4inch vanes than one with 1 inch vanes as they have more resistance.
I am sure that will be the next big round of discussions...to be followed closely by whether they are sealed in paint, teflon or other materials...and whether weight of head increases or decreases rotation......
I believe in Matching the fletch to the bevel but a good friend of mine in NH said he hit a deer with RH bevel head this week and used Left bevel fletching,,, he said the broadhead still rotated to the right going with the bevel upon inmpact,,, has anyone ever tried this and noticed the head will indeed follow the bevel at impact??
I think it would follow the bevel impact and believe from reading the matching fletch to bevel is to ensure maximum efficiency as once the arrow broadhead enters the animal the fletching stops having any impact and the bevel takes over......though might be some loss of effectiveness as the energy transfer reverses the direction.
I doubt it is really enough to make a huge difference but sure Ashby has tried it and has something about it.
QuoteOriginally posted by Brock:
I doubt it is really enough to make a huge difference but sure Ashby has tried it and has something about it.
Correct. I believe it was 2-3% less for fletch opposite bevel. When you consider the testing medium and measurement accuracy, that comes to realistically nothing. But if you are doing things from scratch and want every possible advantage, why not.
I couldn't stand it any longer. I bought some Grizzlies and steel adapters to play around with the single bevel thing.
QuoteI couldn't stand it any longer. I bought some Grizzlies and steel adapters to play around with the single bevel thing.
Haha...I'm in the same boat admittedly! Been messing around with new BH setups all day long since I got the day off.
I can't imagine putting opposite wing fletch from BH bevel on my hunting arrow! I get way too perfectionist when it comes to things like that...specially since I'm not shootin 65#s or whatever. I need all the juice I can get.
I was swayed by the sb debate and tried some steel force 225 grain heads. They were very sharp and flew great. Shot a 6 point a little high and back hit only flesh. The deer ran about 75 yards and holed up in a creek and stayed. I came back about an hour latter and he was mine. The only complaints i had were, from a 60 pound sage with an arrow weight of 700 I got very poor penetration, and as i only hit flesh the edges were dulled badly and even tweaked. I still like the idea but after reading a post from magnus about making a sb stinger he said that they tried it and have ditched the idea after finding out that the best weights for sb were 175 and up and the edges had to be hardened to much.Still want to try some again some day but for now am sticking to stingers!
you need a thick head I think for this to work properly,, I use abowyers they are thick and hair popping sharp from the package after stropped ..
QuoteOriginally posted by FarmerMarley:
Ok, so that Ashby presentation on YOutube sure convinced me of single bevels effectiveness. I'm planning on using them for my pig hunts this winter. However, since I'm getting ready for some turkey hunting coming up soon I'm wondering about 2 blade single bevel BHs for Turkeys? Ashby didn't do tests on turkeys did he (or ostriches in Africa?!)
Is there an anatomical difference with birds (turkey in particular) that would change the balance between which head is more preferred for consistent lethal shots?
Previously I have been planning on using some VPA 250gn 3 blades or big Snuffers, subscribing to the idea that more cutting area on turkey gives you a bigger margin of error for hitting the small vitals. I have been reading through Guru and other turkey hunter's posts trying to plan my setup and up until now I have been pretty set on 3 blades. But maybe the single bevels rotation, "s" shaped hole, superior penetration, and the crazy "starburst" tissue damage effect will compensate for fewer blades?
What do you all think? How does this single bevel stuff apply to gobblers?
I have read Dr Ashby's reports. single bevel broad heads are only 1 of his 10 recommendations. Regarding turkeys, Dr. Ashby concentrated on using 1000gr arrows from his 95lb bow, on 1500 pound trophy Bull Asiatic water buffalo which have ribs upto 7/8" thick which need to be penetrated. Dr. Ashby noted that his recommendations really did not apply to sub-deer sized game.
regards
damian
QuoteOriginally posted by Steve O:
QuoteOriginally posted by Brock:
I doubt it is really enough to make a huge difference but sure Ashby has tried it and has something about it.
Correct. I believe it was 2-3% less for fletch opposite bevel. When you consider the testing medium and measurement accuracy, that comes to realistically nothing. But if you are doing things from scratch and want every possible advantage, why not. [/b]
more like 60%
Thanks for the input fanto,
I guess I was just curious...Especially after reading about the effect of the single bevel on soft tissue.
I'm sticking to my VPA 250 gn 3 blades for my upcoming turkey hunts. But will be testing some ABowyers brown bears on pigs.
TxAg, where did you get your grizzlies from? I ordered some from 3Rivers like 2 months ago and they are still backordered! IT looks like the right wing ones are in stock though. Maybe that explains people mixing and matching BH and fletch orientation....
QuoteOriginally posted by FarmerMarley:
Thanks for the input fanto,
I guess I was just curious...Especially after reading about the effect of the single bevel on soft tissue.
I'm sticking to my VPA 250 gn 3 blades for my upcoming turkey hunts. But will be testing some ABowyers brown bears on pigs.
TxAg, where did you get your grizzlies from? I ordered some from 3Rivers like 2 months ago and they are still backordered! IT looks like the right wing ones are in stock though. Maybe that explains people mixing and matching BH and fletch orientation....
Grizzlybroadheads.com
They come through Zipper. I orderd RW. Haven't gotten them yet, but I assumed they are shipping on time.