Has anyone had the chance to compare many r/d longbows close to identical spects thru the conograph. If so which ones are the fastest and how do they compare to the fastest recurves?
Take a look at our performance longbow testing we have on YouTube and search the post here on tradgang.
Recurves generally have the edge but not absolutely in all instances as revealed in the attachment.
Click on the 'X'.
(http://images.imagelinky.com/1350528775.pptx) (http://images.imagelinky.com/1350528775.pptx)
I have an RER XR 64@28 that I would like to shoot through a chrono. I don't have any real testing experience, but it will zip an arrow. It is noticibly faster than my 70@28 Robertson Purist.
God bless,
Nathan
I've been looking back through my TBM issues and there are a lot of bows tested. What is interesting is all the bows tested run 180 to 190 fps.
Most if not all high performance aggressive deflex reflex longbows will shoot somewhere in the neighbor hood of 180-190 with a 9 gpp arrow. I personally don't have much experience with moderately d/r bows but I would expect them to run maybe 4-5 fps slower and another 4-5 fps for straight limbed bows. That said this are mostly numbers for bows with wood cores and maybe a carbon strip as the core lamination. I truthfully have no idea about the speed for carbon and foam limbed bows.
Blacky has done a lot of testing. One tip for what it is worth: a fine bow is like a great woman; if you love a bow don't chrono it!
I sure like my Black Swan 58" Hybrid. Bought it mostly for speed and tech. Never chrono'd and will probably take Bjorn's advise with this smooth, sexy one!
When we are talking of hunting distances 20-25 yards for hunting i don't think the speed is the most desired feature on any kind of bow,but from lots of reviews the slowests and the fastests don't have a so big gap.
2X what Bjorn said!
Kris
I have compared my Cyclone against a very high priced carbon bow i have and the Cyclone is faster and smoother.I used my pro chrono .Paid almost $1300 for the carbon bow.But everyone probable has a bow they like to shoot more anyway, mine is my Cyclone.
Even from very slow to very fast, the bow that you enjoy shooting the most should always be your pick. However, when dealing with poundages and short draws that could put you on at the bottom end of needed power, speed counts. I have shot a deer with a 36@26" Hill longbow, and left the arrow into the next corn row on a 9 feet up to the deer and 18 yards out shot. For the someone sitting 15 feet up in a tree stand, that would not be my first choice for a bow, if that were my spec limitations. My wife's 38 pound, at her draw, Lost Creek NAT shoots right with what the Stu Miller chart says it should shoot, that makes it pretty quick.
Apparently not all Chronograps are created equal as there have been a number of posts here by shooters getting a good bit more speed than Blackie Schultz did when testing the same bows for Traditional Bowhunter Magazine. Also I.M.O. a well-mannered QUIET bow is awfully nice.
Agree with bjorn all the way. Some years ago i chronoed some of my "speedy" bows and was shocked. Needless to say no more chronoing. Lol ignorance is bliss.
I used to worry a lot about speed. If it is speed you want a 64" RD longbow with at least .04 taper limbs, a very narrow but very deep limb stack, rigid tips and a long riser (short working limbs) will smoke any recurve I've ever seen. Put some carbon skins on it and if it doesn't explode it will be even faster. I have built a fair number of hot rods and this is the tried and true formula. This type of bow is the only one I've seen that will reliably shoot over 190 fps at 10 gpp and 28" draw through a shooting machine.
Try a Sasquatch R/D longbow, you will be amazed at the speed and cast.
Seems almost the wrong forum to ask about speed. Never give it a thought other than trying to match arrow spine to the bow. At the range most of us shoot at speed is of no concern. You will drive yourself crazy or 5 feet per second.
Twistedlim, speed is hardly the most important aspect of a bow but all things being equal increased cast will allow you to shoot a more lethal (heavier) arrow at the same draw weight and trajectory your mental computer is calibrated to recognize. I think that's a good thing and worth discussing on powwow.
If speed is an issue for a shooter, then the fastest bow I have ever shot is a Whippenstick Phoenix. Next fastest was a John Fazio Ballistick. Then, Border Black Douglas.
Dave Heniff's Hitman Bows and I get along real well for accuracy. Plenty fast, too.
Most accurate? Got a Dave Johnson Hill Style bow that hits the mark even when I am not looking at it. Slow in comparison but I keep chipping arrow nochs with the Dave Johnson.
Bro-Arrow,
You will get a lot of comments about speed not being important, however,if it wasn't important, then why do so many new bow owners and bowyers start out their descriptions with these words: Smooth, fast, stable, quiet. Speed is important and I will take a "fast" bow over a "slow" one anyday.
Yes speed is important,but feel and fit are also important.The bow has to fit your grip and be comfortable to hold and shoot.
Speed is definitely an issue for me...probably the top priority in a bow and the last thing I will sacrifice on.
I'm a recurve shooter and shoot have one of Kirk's Sasquatch T/D's that really puts good zip on my arrows. However, I hear his longbows are faster.
Dan,
What's a deep limb stack?
One of the stupidest things I have done was to chrono my "go to" bow at a shoot quite a few years ago. At that point, I had taken more game with her than anything else(including when I shot a compound). Found out how slow she was shooting 14gpp arrows. Life was never the same with her after that:(
Jon
x2 on a Whippenstick Phoenix, and i've shot some bows.... The Phoenix is probably one of the fastest recurves out there...As for Hybrid longbows, I would vote for the Cari-bow Peregrine.
But then again, you must like the bow. I like them....
The Phoenix:
speed: 9GPP: 199 FPS
10 GPP: 190 FPS all this, handshot with a 12 strands string
One of the fastest hybrid Longbows: the Cari-bow Peregrine
Speed: 9 GPP: 193 FPS
11 GPP: 178 FPS
14 GPP: 163 FPS all this handshot with a 10 strands string
Paul, limb stack refers to the thickness of all the laminations glued together to make the limb. A bowyer can arrive at the same target weight either by a thin (back to belly) but wide (laterally) stack as in a recurve or a narrow ( laterally) but deep (back to belly) stack as in a longbow or a combination of the two. The wide but thin stack provides the necessary lateral stability to allow a curvy recurve limb to track straight through the draw cycle. The trade off is too much mass. The skin material be it glass or carbon is heavier than wood or foam core material thus the more of your draw weight that is derived from the core material and the less from skin matrial the lighter a limb will be. The less mass in the moving part of the limb (in general) the faster a bow will be. This is why the fastest trad bows in the world are all LBs. Now it is possible to build a super fast recurve as in Kirk and Kens bows referenced above but both of those designs are very narrow and deep and have less hook than your average RC.
This is a fiberglass limb bow....
http://youtu.be/cit1lA3Z_Mo
check out the ebony flatliner thread. those r/d long bows that brace in a perfect D to meet NFAA regulation long bow specs. i've got some numbers on that thread worth looking at.
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=121811;p=2
One thing I always see in bow tests is draw lengths longer than I draw. I would like to see tests include short draw specs as well. I know that it has been said that the longer limb will always out perform the shorter limb at any draw length. I believed this to be true way back in the 70s when comparing a 50 pound Bear super mag to a super kodiak and a 64 inch takedown, but then I was proven wrong with a super grizzly at the same poundage. I have found that some bows simply shoot faster than others at my longbow draw length, I do not believe either that shorter Hill style bows are always faster than longer ones. How much of the limb is working has a great deal to do with how fast they shoot at a shorter draw.
I think that speed has a lot to do with form. My 54# long bow is a lot (18 fps) faster the my 58# recurve both shoot the same arrow. Both hit with the same authority. The major differance being only in the grip. I use a chrono often and can see the differance between a good release and a bad one. I also use a mechanical release from time to time to help keep my finger release in tune. Speed for me is just another tuning aid.
Most commonly traditional bows are tested at 28" AMO draw length using 9-10 GPP. High tech gear is based on a 30" draw length at IBO weight minimum of 5 gpp.
There are a lot of factors that determine the actual speed of an arrow coming out of a bow.
There is a large difference between measuring the "Bows effeicency" and the "Arrow velocity" as well as practical applications for hunting vs target shooting.... 3D competition vs shooting dots at 20 yards.... and field archery.
A bowyer can build a hot rod bow out of ultra light materials just using fiberglass and wood that would astound you with the chronograph numbers. the same thing can be accomplished using composites like carbon and foam cores.
But.... what the hunters as well as 3D competitors are looking for is the perfect mixture between high speed flat trajectory, good limb stability that keeps those limbs tracking consistently the same, and a smooth consistent draw cycle with the east amount of vibration. They also want durability and longevity... that's a lot to ask from mortal bowyer's. but it can be done.
The sound of the bow is very important to hunters too. using the right combination of string and tuning along with silences can adjust that on most bows.
The most common misconception regarding a bows efficiency and relating that to arrow speed, is the generalization and classification of different bow designs such as "ELB" "Hill Style" "Recurve" and "R/D long bows".
That would be the same as comparing cars to trucks, and motocross to street bikes in motorcycles.
It doesn't matter how long the car or truck is... it's what the thing is weighs, and what's under the hood, the gear ratio, and traction that gives you a 10 second quarter.
With a bow you are storing energy in the limbs and transferring that energy to the arrow shaft. the "Bows" efficiency is measured by calculating how much of that stored energy transfers to the arrow shaft.... typically the heavier the shaft, the more effeicent the "Bow" becomes.... not to be confused with the "Arrow efficiency"
Getting back to the thread topic "Pure speed" ... This is accomplished by balancing the mass weight of the limb itself to the draw weight, taking into consideration the mass weight of the arrow shaft being used. The length of the bow or the limbs themselves is not nearly as important as "the amount of working limb that is actually storing the energy." and having enough preload, or string tension at brace to stop the forward motion of the limb clean and transfer the energy to the shaft.
There are many different ways to accomplish this that i won't go into in detail. The short version is balancing all the mass weight of the working limb to actual draw weight, and shifting the location of that area where the limb bends to minimize forward motion, with enough preload to stop the limbs dead...... clear as mud, right?
Good Topic. Lets hear from some other bowyers on the subject.
100 percent in agreement with what Kirk said.
I recently had an experience where I lengenthened up the working area of my limb for a gentleman with a long draw. The bow which generally performed in the top performance bow area went to the low. It is my experince that very little change in bow limb build can drasticly effect limb performance . Soooooooooo now I build my normal build with a bit less stack and maintain the high performance level/
I'm sure most bowyers would not confess to having built a slow bow but here is one that has. Its how we learn. Thing is., first and formost I want a bow to perform in this manner. Smooth to draw, super quiet and vibration free, Extremely stable and then fast. In the above case I had all the above but fast./ Was it a great bow ??? Yes with one exception/ Butttttt then a great bow has no exceptions/
God bless you all, Steve
QuoteOriginally posted by Bjorn:
Blacky has done a lot of testing. One tip for what it is worth: a fine bow is like a great woman; if you love a bow don't chrono it!
I can't help but wonder how many have run their women through a chrono.
:rolleyes:
Sorry, neither my wife nor my bows have been chronoed. So it's all good.
:biglaugh:
QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
...........
But.... what the hunters as well as 3D competitors are looking for is the perfect mixture between high speed flat trajectory, good limb stability that keeps those limbs tracking consistently the same, and a smooth consistent draw cycle with the east amount of vibration. They also want durability and longevity... that's a lot to ask from mortal bowyer's. but it can be done.
That is soooo right! But speed is not only the bow. You can speed a bow up by proper tuning, putting skinny strings on and making sure the nocks on your arrow don't are too tight on the serving on the string. I always use to file my nocks out in such a way that they just don't fall of my string. I don't know many archers who do this....But your bow will certainly gain in speed and shoot better.
Another point is the archer himself. A bow which is lower in drawweight can shoot faster then the same bow with more drawweight, simply because the archer can handle the lower drawweight in a better way, has therefore a better form and release, which will translate itself in a faster arrow.
I also think that finding the right arrowweight (GPP) plays a role. It is my opinion that every bow has its own arrowweight by which it performs the best. You feel it when you found the right weight. It is likes the bow is telling you: "Yes bro, this is what I like! Let's shoot some more!". Such a bow suddenly feels perfect. That feeling is for me more important then getting the maximum speed out of a bow.
I think it is the total package!
Trying to stay on topic here. building a bow "Purely for speed" and selling them with a warranty would be a good way to go broke in a hurry.
It's really fun to build a hot rod now and then just to see how fast you can get these things to spit an arrow. But those serious hot rods are going to be rather harsh to shoot for some guys. Typically the seriously fast bows have early weight to the draw cycle sometimes referred to as pre-load. Without that tight string and early weight, it's very difficult to get the energy transfer to the shaft.
The same thing goes for the draw length. The hot rod is going to be drawn right to the stacking point which can be uncomfortable for many archers, and difficult to shoot accurately.
Actual draw length and draw weight of the bow an have a huge impact on arrow speed. if you take a bow and build it for maximum efficiency for 50@28" and test it at lower draw lengths the efficiency drops. If that 50# bow at 28" shoots 500 grains of arrow at 190 fps at 10 gpp. At a 26" draw the same bow only draws 45# and at 450 grains. The same 10 gpp arrow will be lucky to hit 183-185 FPS. :biglaugh: