Earlier this year I had an interesting thought which I shared with Kirk at Big Foot Bows. This lead to a brief discussion and payment sent to secure my place on Kirk's list. Time ticked by and weeks rolled into months. To make a long story short, I got a call last Sunday from a number I didn't recognized. You guessed it, Kirk had a bow nearly ready to ship to me!
Now the "interesting thought" I had wasn't to be. You see the longbow I had in mind was not one that Kirk currently builds but one he was willing to investigate and prototype. Again, long story short, it didn't work out. To his credit, he didn't laugh at me but politely told me what I had proposed was basically a dud. So instead he sent me one of his mild r/d longbows aptly named the "Flatliner".
I've had a few days to shoot this bow now and my first impressions remain the same. The name is more than a title, it is a description!
I currently have three longbows of the mild r/d persuasion and all pretty much shoot the same. All are in similar draw weights and length (as is the Flatliner). All shoot the same arrow to the same point and, as far as I can tell, at about the same speed. Not so with the Flatliner!
This bow is quick but it's not the quickness that surprised me (I've had several speedy bows) ... it is the cast. Now, I've always viewed cast as a near synonym of speed and maybe that is true but I have to believe there is some level of a bows efficiency in that description as well.
This bow, with the same arrow, shoots with the others at relatively short distance but when I get to 18 yards and beyond the difference becomes very noticeable. The arrow just seems to continue like a lazer to the target.
The Flatliner shoots so ... well, flat ... that it messes with my hand/eye coordination as I am accustomed to some level of subconscious adjustment.
I'm not invovled in any competitive shooting but for those who are in leagues/ 3-D shoots, this would be a bow to consider. I image on those distant targets it would take some guess work out and I can't help but believe that those shots would be more consistent. Who knows, might even increase my effective hunting distance.
Anyway, enough talk of how it shoots. Here are some pictures Kirk sent before shipping it:
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg180/750grains/flatliner6.jpg)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg180/750grains/Flatliner2.jpg)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg180/750grains/flatliner7.jpg)
Looks like a winner!
I failed to mention that the riser has a G-10 I-beam. As Kirk states, this adds a bit more mass and reduces flex. It must work because this bow is about as dead in the hand as any I've shot. Here's a few more pictures:
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg180/750grains/flatliner5.jpg)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg180/750grains/flatliner3.jpg)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg180/750grains/Flatliner.jpg)
Balanced limbs and solid riser yields dead in the hand and Kirk is a master at that, glad she found you. Enjoy
Well, that sure is a pretty bow. Having shot Kirk's bows and listened to him talk about design and builds, I can tell you that I know you have a great bow there. Congratulations on that. Hope you are able to get it out hunting before too long.
Enjoy!
Great looking bow. This is one of those real sleepers.
God bless you all, Steve
Its about time i got to see a picture of this bow.We have talked about but never got to see it.Nice looking,good job Kirk!
Kirk invested a lot of time in testing this, that and a bunch of other stuff...over and over.
Looks like he did it again to get you something that suits your needs. As he pointed out to me recently, his flatliner series LOOKS like a hill-style bow, but he's done some other stuff in the limbs and handle that takes some of the thump out...
He surely does build stuff that flat out shoots!
My Sassy Lady is only 47#, but I Had to go go up a full spine size to accommodate the increased energy those limbs put into each shot.
Enjoy the performance...
Good looking bow. I can attest to Kirk building hard hitting bows. He built me a Sasquatch recurve that I just used this past wk end to kill a buck.
I went back in the next day and found my arrow. Great, I thought, not broke or anything. Looked at it later on and saw this.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/Iflytrout/DEER/MFX.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/Iflytrout/DEER/mfx2.jpg)
This is a Beman MFX 400 shaft that are known to be durable. It has only been shot once in a foam target and once in the deer. I would figure maybe just a weak shaft, but when I unscrewed the Tree Shark broadhead that I used and put it on two other shafts it wobbled bad on both. It spun perfect before using on the deer.
So..it bent my broadhead and shattered my shaft.
All I can figure is the Big Feet just hit too hard.
Nice looking bow!
Well I'm sure glad you like her Danny. :goldtooth:
I really apologize for the "dud". That term "Dud" cracked me up by the way. quite honestly if i would have done some form alterations, and had time to build a few more of them. I might have squeezed enough performance out of her to keep my interest in the design.... but... and "but" is the operative word here.... the dad burn design was butt ugly.IMO
The "Flatliner" was originally designed for competition to meet NFAA long bow regulations for a man named Paul Fender in hopes of giving him an edge in unmarked 3D.
The original prototypes are a wee bit different than the bow i sent you. Instead of using fiberglass and bamboo cores, i used a triple carbon matrix, with a foam core in the limbs, and cut the shelf right to center in a traditional "V"
notch shape required in the long bow classification specs. there cannot be any reflex in the limb at brace either.
The carbon backed version of this bow is considerably faster than the fiberglass backed model due to the ultra light composite materials used.
Here is a review that Paul wrote in May.
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=31;t=001079
Maybe Paul will jump in here and tell us how he did this year with it.
Kirk
Mmmmm I want one !
Yep that that there IS the Flatliner all right. I recognize the limb profile right away, now that I am intimately familiar with the bow. The design is absolutely awesome.
Kirk worked tirelessly, making up several test sets of limbs to bolt onto risers for testing before commiting to building a one piece. And even then he discarded I believe something like 3 finished bows as being not up to his standard. I gave him the criteria for what it takes to meet IFAA/NFAA rules, and he bent over backwards to meet them. But you see, with Kirk it wasn't just a matter of making a bow that fit a pattern and a set of rules. It had to PERFORM, or it just wasn't worth pursuing. Kirk pulled that off too!
Kirk went through prototyping the Flatliner, with a little input from me during that process, then I wound up with #1, the first "production" Flatliner. Took that bow, and BAM, right off won the NFAA 3D Nationals at Redding, beating a record set by Larry Yien back in '02. Taken a few other local and State wins as well.
Whether you're going to hunt, compete, or both, the Flatliner "flat out" performs. Not just cast, and speed, but its a stable platform able to deliver on accuracy as well.
Jedimaster ya done good. Kirk knows what he's doing.
Just in case it still not clear, I'm still blown away by the Flatliner and very enthusiastic. Its all that AND a bag of chips!
Looks like a winner,congrats. The only comment in the original post that I don't understand is that you weren't surprised by the quickness, but only the cast. I have never understood this. Cast is only related to the speed of the arrow, all other things being equal. Maybe someone wiser than I will explain why I am wrong.
You are not wrong at all Pat. The arrows cast is directly related to the speed.
I think where Danny was heading was that at short yardage using hunting weight arrows the difference of 15-20 FPS speed isn't that noticeable, and only a few inches higher or lower impact is seen.
Once you drop back to 30-40 yards. the amount of energy stored in the limbs that is transferred to arrow becomes self evident and you see that flat trajectory.
An average bow that is only transferring 70% of 50 pounds draw weight vs a 47 pound bow that is 90% efficient is going to have a better cast and hit harder.
Kirk
Thanks Kirk, that makes better sense than I ever could with the topic. All I know is the arrow doesn't "drop" with the Flatliner as it does with my other bows.
I'm not able to appreciate the FPS difference, especially with my hunting weight arrows, with the naked eye. A chronograph would help here.
What I can appreciate is the "cast" (which is a term I'm not used to using) as the arrow has less of an arc. To my reasoning, all other things being equal (draw weight, arrow weight, etc.) the Flatliner must be transfering more of the limbs energy to the arrow. Efficiency.
Now this is a product of tuning as well as we all know a poorly tuned bow doesn't shoot as hard, fast, straight, whatever as well tuned bow.
very nice bow. Good luck this season.
I'll take Benders recommendation every day of the week as an absolute glowing report from a gent who gets in done against the best competitive longbow archers out there .
Hey Danny,
I got your letter via snail mail today and was overwhelmed by the news of that tornado tearing your place up. Thank God no one was hurt.
The fact that you took time to write me, and think of sending money at a time like this is unheard of. :eek: I got all choked up and threw down my guns bro...
If there is anything i can do to help you, please let me know.... you are a good man Danny.
one more thing about arrow cast.... what you are seeing in flat trajectory is what it's all about. the chronograph wont help you at all really. The reason I use a chronographs the most is to help keep my edge when building one bow to the next..... These bows can vary a lot in actual speed with very few changes in materials and draw weight. The key to getting a consistent good cast to a bow is taking the time to balance the limbs to the draw weight, and keep a good tight string at brace.
Take care of yourself, and stay in touch Danny..... Kirk
Kirk, the one thing that stands out about your bows is that the sight window of your longbow is extended. Is this done to make the limbs of equal length (Hill bows have a shorter lower limb) and therefore allows you to balance the bow like you do?
PS. I hope I am not asking you to give away any design secrets.
Beautiful bow Danny!
Danny,
I picked up in Kirk's post that a tornado hit you and I extend my well-wishes for recovery from whatever you've experienced.
Heart and Hand. Don't know where I heard that but somewhere in my past.
Working with Kirk thru the process of building a truly custom bow for me, I've learned much about the Heart of the man behind building the bows.
His dedication to quality, regardless of whether he makes money on the deal or not, is notable and I've come to appreciate that 'old fashioned" quality dedication in people and especially craftsmen!
The Hand part is the talent and keen eye he brings to his work. Were I a pirate, given all that Kirk's shared of the intricacies of bow building, design and material matching, I could write a book telling all he's learned and willingly shares.
Alas, he's safe. I can keep 'up' with what he shares only because he has a very natural way of describing complex issues in plain talk, but then, there is my own "retention" aspect.
It takes all I've got to wrap my head around his words to follow the bouncing ball and understand some incredibly complex lessons he's share over time working with him on my bow--- there is no way I could reproduce anything I've "learned"--
I stick with admiration and appreciation that we as mere "folks" can actually "buy" all that learning and testing and neurotic drive for perfection in a not-so-simple but perfect tool for trad archery!
Hey Danny! I forgot to ask...what are the specs on your bow and what are the woods? Beautiful bow, and I'm probably gonna have to order one.
Thank you Kirk for being so kind! We had a set-back here but we are doing fine. I know you meant what you said and that in itself made my day. Learning a little patience and humility as the clean-up, repair and rebuilding process is a slow one. We are surrounded by wonderful people that are the backbone of this country. We owe a debt of gratitude to our friends and neighbors for all the help we have received. Like I said ... humbled.
Actually this has renewed my faith somewhat. If you listen to the news you'd believe the whole country is full of self-serving degenerates and perverts. Proud to report that's not so here in rural America! Most of you reflect those same traditional values and that's one reason why, with limited internet access, I choose to visit this site.
The Lord spared my family and I as we were out of town when the tornado struck a little after midnight Thursday before last. Totalled my wife's van and my shop and severly damaged our home, my truck, fencing, trees, etc. Happy to report that the bows and hunting equipment were all safe and sound :) We have insurance and most "things" are replaceable.
It is not nearly as bad as it may sound and we are getting along quite well. The Lord truly blessed us and we are well ... except for a thumbnail I inadvertently removed during some clean up work Saturday ... Ouch!
Doc, you are right on about Kirk and his bows. Not much I can add but give him a call if you're thinking of a new bow.
Randy, good to hear from you my friend! I really enjoyed your Alaska caribou adventure. Very good! This Flatliner is a performer for sure. I'm not sure of the riser wood but the specs are 47@28 and 64". If you'd like to shoot her a while PM me your address and I'll forward it to you. Hunting season is on hold here for now.
I've rambled too much and still need to answer a PM from the illustrious S. Brant Osborn - Tradganger extraordinaire. I'll be watching as you guys finish your season and wish you all well.
:pray: :pray:
Danny,
Your humble heart speaks well of you as you speak of your friends and neighbors.
As I sit here, the window is plastered with heavy rain, the trees are whipping about like a ship tossed in high seas... Sandy has come to visit!
The worst is yet to come--tonite by all accounts.
We might all need to go "pioneer" here for a while...sans electric and the goodies that are run by power.
Danny, glad you're doing as well as can be expected!
Keep the Son in your eyes, bro!
What a cool play on words Doc. :thumbsup:
QuoteOriginally posted by DWilhelm:
Kirk, the one thing that stands out about your bows is that the sight window of your longbow is extended. Is this done to make the limbs of equal length (Hill bows have a shorter lower limb) and therefore allows you to balance the bow like you do?
PS. I hope I am not asking you to give away any design secrets.
To be totally honest about the shape of my sight window is that it's exactly the same size as the drum on the end of my edge sander... :thumbsup: It has something to do with a tighter string at brace, and stopping the limbs clean.
Hang in there Danny! like Doc said. "Keep the Son in your eye's my friend" Kirk
Hey Danny! Thanks for the offer! i sent you a pm...
Thanks Doc and Kirk! Hope you fare well with the storm Doc. I'll be keeping you and the other guys up there in my thoughts and prayers.