I like the looks of the Hill bows but my shoulder doesn't like the hand shock. Any suggestions on a 66" or 68" longbow that has the D shape when strung but is easier on your shoulder?
Try a Miller or Schulz all bamboo / no glass model. Very soft in the hand. I've heard good things said about the Toelke Super D as well.
I love my osage self-bow. Not sure what your skill level is but they're not that difficult. You should try it. Good luck on your "hunt" for that one bow...
-Jeremy :coffee:
"Hand shock" hurts your "shoulder"?
:confused:
Have you looked at the hill bug thread. their is a lot of great info there. I shoot a hill tembo "which is my go to bow" and do not notice the hand shock that some others do. The way you grip the bow has alot to do with it.
A low wrist grip and bent bow arm can really help. There are many mild reflex deflex bows that will string up to a d shape. I like the abbott bows but when it's time to make meat I take the hill.
Liberty Contender is a D shape that has a touch of RD ... wonderful bow by a great bowyer .
Yep I agree Hand shock CAN hurt your shoulder,You never seen waves on a beach or ripples on a pound,shock travel even to your back...That is why I had ti go to plan "B"..R/D
I had a Herb Meland NightHawk,mild r/d that braced at a "D". Very sweet shooter,almost hurt to sell it. Funny thing is I've sold off almost all my r/d longbows and recurves to buy Hill style bows.To each his own I guess.
String-Follow is the best I've shot in the Hill style. I have a Northern Mist Shelton that is a sweet shooter and haven't noticed any 'shock'.
Nate Steele at BamaBows makes straight limbed bows that are shock free too. Nice bows.
I just got a 66" 'SparrowHawk' from Vince at Mohawk Bows. It's a mild R/D that strings up to a D-Shape. Absolutely dead in hand. It's an incredible bow. 5 lams of Boo. It's so smooth it feels 5 pounds lighter than it's actual draw weight. Mines a 2pc. I had it in 4 weeks from the day I ordered it. Vince's work is flawless and the bow is a tack-driver. I was shooting golf-ball sized groups at 13 yards the first shooting session with her. I got Bocote with brown glass, which makes for a beauty of a bow.
I got the Sparrowhawk with a locator grip, but Vince offers a straight grip also. I highly recommend a Mohawk, I think it would be just what you are needing.
Thanks for the suggestions, I'll check into each of them. I had a torn rotator and even shooting a recurve I could feel it in my shoulder. It's been a year since my surgery and my recovery has been very good. I don't feel anything now when shooting a recurve but I also don't want to over stress it. I just really like the look of that D shape longbow. I'll check them out.
I know I came off like a smart ass in my first post, but I thought there might be something else going on.
Just be careful with your shooting regime and don't overdue it whichever bow you choose. I'd suggest you also don't push the draw weight end of things.
Toelke Super D is as dead in the hand as any D. OH, and shoot a heavy arrow
I think the problem when handling a Hill bow is to have a natural bow arm, any forced extension will result in a more felt shot. Try a natural bow arm. Raise your arm up to point at something in your line of sight, you don't hyper extend your arm.
As for Hill style bows, If you can find a Shultz Old Favorite, buy it. These bows tend to have some string follow due to the fact they do not have any glass backing. The string follow helps soften then shot. Another bow is a Shrew Hill, with it's tiny tips and wedge grip, there is hardly any felt shock.
You will find a Toelke Super D to feel more like a slight pulse upon release than the "thump" associated with many of the Hill styles. In addition they are unusually quick and quieter than regular quiet.
Toelke Super "D", Hill Halfbreed string follow, Northern Mist Whisper......also learn to hold this type of bow the correctly, not trying to be a wise guy but it does make a great deal of difference how you hold and what you feel upon release. Heavy arrows from the bows above [that are on my rack] result in just a pleasant thump on release.....
No problem Charlie and good advice worth listening to. Thanks to everyone else, also alot of good advice and suggestions.
Maybe something with a little more mass weight would help with a tender shoulder.Not to mention elbow,wrist etc.
Maybe a bow like a 21st Century Edge or Stotler or similar types that have larger risers and still string up in a D shape.Despite a somwhat aggressive limb.
I think a mild R&D like a Great Northern Critter Gitter or Berry Taipan/Appollo/Renassiance might be worth a look.
A heavy arrow can help and a skinny string with wool puffs or even a quiver attached to the bow can tame some felt handshock.
I've had labral repair done and it is likely torn again.. no issues with Hill style in my bow shoulder.
Rotor Cuff issues are common in some sports and archery and bowhunting is one. Signs of RC impingment usually show up when you lift your arm to shoulder level or above. Any discomfort in the shoulder and joints should be checked out by a doctor and physical therapist. Good luck.
Most mild r/d models help to some extent. Plus, you should get a little more zip pound for pound, and can get by with a slightly shorter bow, if that makes any difference to you.
I have a bad elbow and I notice any shock thats there . All D bows I have shot have hand shock, some more than others . It doesnt matter how you hold it, theres going to be shock .Some guys have just gotten used to it so they dont notice it,and say there is none but if you have a bad joint youll feel it. Try a different style bow your shoulder will only get worse shooting a D bow. I switched to a r&d bow and a recurve I can now shoot pain free as much as I want....Tim
I agree with what Ben Maher said. I have a Liberty Contender Elite. That is as smooth as can be & has no thump at all. Then again, My HH Cheetah doesn't either when held properly.
Pronghorn Nighthawk with glass limbs is nice.
I have to second the Mohawk. I have a 66" Sparrowhawk that is absolutely dead in the hand. Slightly r/d, but a true "D" when strung.
I had a beautiful Abbot, but with a straight grip. I'm guessing it's all in how you learn to grip it, but I never learned. The indexed grip on my Mohawk seems to make the difference for me.
I have quite a few recurves and aggressive r/d bows and the Sparrowhawk is just as smooth and shock free. Oh, did I mention quiet?
Like Ron W, I'll speak for the Toelke Super D.
Naturally this will be subjective Gregg..you will get all kinds of answers and advice. My Hill shocked a bit too much for me too. I tried the Mohawk from Vince Migliarado and it shocks much less. The Northern Mist Whisper was also pleasant for me too shoot. ..good luck
Gregg, I just picked a Toelke Super D. That's what I'm going out with this week. Its a 66" 55@28 and smooth. I wrote off D bows after shooting a Saxon Elite that felt like it was going to take my arm off. The super D in my opinion has less shock than my Dwyer Originals at the same # and the Super D is straight limbed with some setback at the ends. Its easier on my shoulder than my Dwyers were and those are mild r/d if that says anything. If you are ever near Detroit, look me up. Jim Wright, who posted here, knows these bows real well.
https://picasaweb.google.com/101988326585616136565/SuperDTexasEbonyRiserMyrtleVeneers
I too will put in a vote for Vince' Mohawks. Either the original or the sparrowhawk would be my choice for a d shaped longbow with no hand shock.
Try a pronghorn night hawk
I agree with Tim Finley, I have both d-style and R/D longbows & one GN Flatbow, my Bama R/Ds are extremely smooth with no jump at all as are most reflex/deflex longbows! My Bama Hunter is also very smooth but I find that all straight limbed longbows all have a little thump, although some are way more jumpier than others!
Wow! Thanks for all the responses. I will take all suggestions and check each one out.
7 Lakes "Carolina Night" string-follow design.
A very sweet, smooth Hill-style longbow. (//%5Burl=http://imgur.com/fNscruI%5D%20%5Bimg%5Dhttp://i.imgur.com/fNscruI.jpg)[/url] [/IMG]
(http://i.imgur.com/tq8sVS6.jpg) (http://imgur.com/tq8sVS6)
I don't notice any hand shock with any of my "Hill style" bows.
God bless,Mudd
I just got a Northern Mist Shelton and if it has any hand shock I can't feel it. It's one fine shooting true D shaped longbow. There are also other longbows that fit the bill as mentioned above. The more you shoot a Hill style longbow the less you feel any hand shock. I'm like Mudd I don't feel any hand shock with any of my longbows.
QuoteOriginally posted by Mudd:
I don't notice any hand shock with any of my "Hill style" bows.
God bless,Mudd
X2
It all depends on what you define as hand shock. The Super D and 21st Century's both have a mild thump. Many D bows have a thump, its not really a 'shock'. If you want a bow that's totally dead in the hand a hybrid is your best bet, but then you lose the D shape. I feel the Super D is quite manageable. 21st's the thump is quite mild also. I personally like a thump, makes the shot feel wholesome and alive.
Also, string material makes a difference. In my experience fast flight material reduces felt 'shock/thump' while Dacron makes it worse. I hate Dacron.
Probably pretty obvious which D shaped bow I will recommend... Having said that, I've handled a few different D bows and only one model thumped me good. Other than that, I am with Mudd... there are many that will vibrate in the hand but that won't hurt. But all things being equal, I would still recommend the Vixen or Morning Star for minimal vibration.
JW
I have helped a couple of people out with bow arm shoulder troubles, found that the position of the shoulder was the big thing. If the shoulder is jammed tight they felt it. If they opened the stance a bit and kept the shoulder from jamming up things were better. I am not sure if it was shock that was the problem or just the release of the muscle reactions. Leaving a tender joint with room to react could help keep from agitating the weaker tissues.
Northern Mist shelton is sweet shooting. i like`m all.RC
Choose the right arrow and the "shock" will be how little you will notice the so called handshock that D bows are accused of having. I have a Shrew Hill, Northern Mist Classic, Robertson Vision, and Great Northern Critter Gitter, all have a D profile when at brace, neither has any hand shock that I notice.
Not all bows are made the same and some will thump the shooter more than others. Even the same bow can really vibrate one shooter and not the next. Try playing around with your string and see if an 8 strand string or extra/different silencers helps. I had a HH Big Five that rattled my elbow something fierce - I hated to shoot it. I switched the original Dacron string out to an 8 strand 8125 fast flight string and it was like shooting a different bow. The whole vibration pattern changed drastically. Adjusting your brace height/increasing arrow weight, etc. can also alter the vibration pattern.
JD Berry Bows
QuoteOriginally posted by LongStick64:
I think the problem when handling a Hill bow is to have a natural bow arm, any forced extension will result in a more felt shot. Try a natural bow arm. Raise your arm up to point at something in your line of sight, you don't hyper extend your arm.
As for Hill style bows, If you can find a Shultz Old Favorite, buy it. These bows tend to have some string follow due to the fact they do not have any glass backing. The string follow helps soften then shot. Another bow is a Shrew Hill, with it's tiny tips and wedge grip, there is hardly any felt shock.
X2
Also, be sure to "heel" the bow if it is a straight or dished grip and allow your elbow of your bow arm to break just slightly. In other words do not lock your elbow. I shoot Hill style bows almost exclusively and some are pretty heavy thumpers and I have never once noticed "hand shock" while shooting. (and I do own some R/D bows as well so it isn't like I have nothing to compare them to. :) )
QuoteOriginally posted by Mudd:
I don't notice any hand shock with any of my "Hill style" bows.
God bless,Mudd
X3
QuoteOriginally posted by Gregg S:
I like the looks of the Hill bows but my shoulder doesn't like the hand shock. Any suggestions on a 66" or 68" longbow that has the D shape when strung but is easier on your shoulder?
The D-shape of the particular longbow you speak is the cross-section of the limb, not profile of the bow when strung. Normally these bows are built with either some limb backset, straight, or string follow. Cannot speak for everyone, but myself, I like backset in a hunting bow that is a size shorter than a textbook ideal length, I like straight limbs in an all around bow that is at a textbook ideal length, and string follow in a target bow that is a size longer than a textbook ideal length. The slightly longer bow with string follow tends to be more forgiving to me when trying to shoot most accurately.
As for handshock, I can easily take my most forgiving and sweetest shooting Hill bows and turn them into vibrating monsters by doing a combination of a few things. The pivot point on the bow handle where the equal energy of the returning upper and lower limbs divide upon loosing an arrow, is at a lower point on the handle than some other high wrist bow designs. I can raise the heel of my hand to effectively choke up on my grip above the pivot point so that the limbs do not return in time to create shock. Add to this having the brace outside the sweetspot, and/or the arrows a tad on the light end, and you can turn a silk smooth bow into a tooth rattling beast. It is easy to duplicate in a well built bow, so I'm of the opinion that much of the handshock debated is operator induced vs bad bow design.
Even with B50 string, the musical tone that may resonate from well tuned and properly shot Hill is most pleasant in the hand and to the ear. If this is bothersome, one may need to pad their feet when walking across deep shag carpeting to prevent their footsteps from shaking loose a tooth :)
If I may pass along some sage advice given to me years back by longbow archers far more experienced than I:
Use the heaviest bow you can shoot accurately with ease. In that context, it is very important that you fully engage the rhomboids between your shoulder blades to execute proper form. You hold with the rhomboids and not with your arms. In doing so, it is very important that you keep your bow shoulder down and back to prevent long term shoulder injuries. If the bow is of such weight that your shoulder is forced up and is compressed while at full draw, you are on the fast track towards impingement and long term injuries. An old rule of thumb when shooting Hill style with longbows is to measure at full draw the distance from the lateral center of your bow arm bicep directly across to under the arrow. Anything under 5" is a sign that the shoulder is collapsed and is not down and back into the socket.
Hope this is helpful. As for recommendations, I just recently switched to a Hill "Wesely Special" built to my hunting specs. Though not quite as fast as my old "Cheetah", this bow is on the upper end of the scale for being very smooth and forgiving. It's a great feeling to have a light and lively bow draw and loose so smoothly.
Best :)
Two Tracks Echo. Sting follow and sweet.
take a look at Mohawks too...
Lots of good observations and advice from Daddy Bear. Until bows are 100% efficient, they will all impart hand shock. It's just the excess energy left in the limbs when the bow limbs snap back to brace. It has to go somewhere, and it's dissipated by vibrating throughout the bow. How much depends on bow design, riser and limb weight, string material, arrow weight, tune, etc. And, how much of that shock is felt also varies from person to person. What some consider a soft push, others consider a teeth rattler.
With straight, or moderately set back limbs, I've found that limb mass is a pretty big factor in imparting hand shock. Keeping the bow a little shorter (say 66 inches instead of 68 inches) and constructing the limbs with bamboo laminations rather than various woods, both help to cut down on overall limb mass and reduce felt hand shock. A fast flite string and relatively heavy arrows are two other ways to substantially reduce hand shock. Lots of other contributing factors, as others have mentioned, but it's worth keeping in mind when you select your next bow. Good luck.
The Toelke D is a great bow.
As far as the shock, before my surgery, any shock radiated across my shoulders and neck. It was quite unpleasant. Any pain may be a red flag you may want to heed, before you end up wearing one of these-LOL
(http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s415/pinefarm/photo-42.jpg)
Mojo, if you had that much hand shock with a Super D you were not gripping the bow correctly. Too many great reports on Dan's bows. I also have one and I can shoot mine (and have shot mine) literally hundreds of times in a given day with no discomfort.
I wasn't talking about the Super D. I suggest the Super D.
QuoteOriginally posted by Mojostick:
I wasn't talking about the Super D. I suggest the Super D.
OOPS sorry Mojo.
No biggie. :)
If you want to rattle some teeth, try a Martin Stick. :scared: ;)
Maybe some of the bowyers can chime in about the hand shock as Orion did. I agree with what Orion said in that it is excess energy, but I am wondering if it's more a tillering problem with UNEQUAL energy in the limbs. Kind of like a wheelie bow that's out of tune.
Out of tiller will certainly exacerbate hand shock.
Just to throw another one out there, I see you are from Hazleton. Jim Martin, Mahantango Custom Bows down in Mt. Pleasant Mills makes a mild D/R 66" or 68" that is hands down the best longbow I have ever shot. My second choice would probably be the Northern Mist Classic but the Mahantango is much quicker. Also, as others have said, percieved handshock can very well be a function of shooting form.
Give the String Follow "Carolina Night" a try from 7 Lakes Longbow. He's a sponser on this site and builds a nice, quiet bow. Very little If any hand shock.
I am another Hill shooter who believes that the way you hold the bow is a major factor in feeling hand shock. You hold a Hill style longbow with a firm, very solid grip on the heel of your hand, and I hold a slight bend in my bow arm. Whenever I feel shock, I find my grip to me out of kilter more than any other problem.
no handshock with my jd berry vixen
I think handshock is very subjective and depending where you come from. And we tend to adjust our bodies and minds to handshock and /or vibrations.
When I bought my first D-shaped longbow, I thought it had no handshock at all. After a few years I moved over to a custom made hybrid design. I shot it for a few weeks to tune it and get used to it. Then I grabbed my old thrusted longbow and I was really shocked how much handshock and vibrations it had, I suddenly could feel it... Never shot that longbow agains and I sold it. I just couldn't shoot it anymore....
Then I bought a custom made three pce recurve with heavy riser... Putted a bowquiver on it, which added even more mass. After shooting that bow, and going back to my hybrid longbow, I suddenly felt it had a light handshock and some vibrations... I could have sworn it was the quietest bow I ever shot... But it isn't...
So in my opinion it is just what your reference is... If a bow has a handshock you will get used to it, and in the end you won't feel it.
You have to feel it by yourself how a bow shoots, because opinions from other archers might depend on what their reference is...
lIberty Contender...
I also agree with Flying DUtchman. You can get "used to" anything. However, if it hurts, just find a different bow. I am mostly a 3 piece recurve shooter and they are smooth. I did find the Liberty Contender to be very smooth and t does have a D shape when strung. It is also beautiful, very accurate and forgiving as well as quick. I ordered mine and had it in under a month...
Liberty Contender Elite, a Cadillac of longbows. (//%5Burl=http://imgur.com/ghtpQSS%5D%20%5Bimg%5Dhttp://i.imgur.com/ghtpQSS.jpg)[/url] [/IMG]
(http://i.imgur.com/XbETP5O.jpg) (http://imgur.com/XbETP5O)
One more vote for the Liberty Contender. I received this one from Allen earlier this year and really love it.
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u532/chase_el_p/photo2-4.jpg) (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/chase_el_p/media/photo2-4.jpg.html)
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u532/chase_el_p/photo3-5.jpg) (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/chase_el_p/media/photo3-5.jpg.html)
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u532/chase_el_p/photo1-4.jpg) (http://s1320.photobucket.com/user/chase_el_p/media/photo1-4.jpg.html)
My Robertson Primal Styk has zero shock and almost no sound with 600 grain Pine arrows.
QuoteOriginally posted by nineworlds9:
It all depends on what you define as hand shock. The Super D and 21st Century's both have a mild thump. Many D bows have a thump, its not really a 'shock'. If you want a bow that's totally dead in the hand a hybrid is your best bet, but then you lose the D shape. I feel the Super D is quite manageable. 21st's the thump is quite mild also. I personally like a thump, makes the shot feel wholesome and alive.
I personally like a thump,makes the shot feel wholesome and alive. x2
I believe the thump helps train the brain also!
QuoteOriginally posted by Flying Dutchman:
I think handshock is very subjective and depending where you come from. And we tend to adjust our bodies and minds to handshock and /or vibrations.
When I bought my first D-shaped longbow, I thought it had no handshock at all. After a few years I moved over to a custom made hybrid design. I shot it for a few weeks to tune it and get used to it. Then I grabbed my old thrusted longbow and I was really shocked how much handshock and vibrations it had, I suddenly could feel it... Never shot that longbow agains and I sold it. I just couldn't shoot it anymore....
Then I bought a custom made three pce recurve with heavy riser... Putted a bowquiver on it, which added even more mass. After shooting that bow, and going back to my hybrid longbow, I suddenly felt it had a light handshock and some vibrations... I could have sworn it was the quietest bow I ever shot... But it isn't...
So in my opinion it is just what your reference is... If a bow has a handshock you will get used to it, and in the end you won't feel it.
You have to feel it by yourself how a bow shoots, because opinions from other archers might depend on what their reference is...
Very true. I have the same feeling. I used to think there's no handshock on my assyrian but after shooting my ilf recurve and going back to the assyrian, I noticed it straight away though its still tolerable. My Peregrine is somewhere in between. Very mild feedback in the hand shooting 8.3 gpp but I won't call it "dead in the hand" yet.
Gregg, I don't have a ton of experience with longbows but I did have a Kota longbow that was very smooth. I do not believe it was in that length but it was a smooth bow! Thx, Mike
QuoteOriginally posted by Ben Maher:
Liberty Contender is a D shape that has a touch of RD ... wonderful bow by a great bowyer .
X2