So I'm bareshaft testing with field points that weight exactly the same as my broadheads.
At 20 yards, they fly perfect 80% of the time. But 20% of the time, they show just a hair weak.
My question: Do I leave 'em alone, or do I cut another 1/8" off, and try to leave 'em a hair stiff?
Fletch one up and see if that fixes the 20% problem.
Variation from shot to shot is shooter error. If you are getting perfect readings most of the time I would leave them unless you find error through your practice. Make sure you mount your broadheads and tune as well. Very rarely does a broadhead fly exactly the same as a fieldpoint.
QuoteOriginally posted by rastaman:
Fletch one up and see if that fixes the 20% problem.
I can fix the 20% by cutting off another 1/8".
What I'm wondering is if they should be a little weak, or a little stiff?
I understand a tad bit weak is what you want bare shaft because when you add fletching it stiffens up a bit.
QuoteOriginally posted by huntin_sparty:
I understand a tad bit weak is what you want bare shaft because when you add fletching it stiffens up a bit.
Agree totally. Especially if you add wraps. I've noticed that length of wrap has a fine-tuning influence, too. Longer = stiffer. Also, 3 feathers are not as stiff as 4. I've gone to 3-fletch with 5-3/4" wraps down from 4-fletch and 7" wraps.
I would say leave them like they are. If your bareshafts fly perfect 80% of the time than a fletched arrow should fly perfect everytime.
Also, I have found that fletched arrows that are a little weak are a whole lot better than having arrrows that are a bit stiff. (all else being equal)
Leave them a little weak if you must. Several members here will shoot identical arrows except for point weight. They will never go down from their standard point weight but they will not hesitate to go up. Say you shoot 125gr most of the time but can only find 130 or 135 gr blunts. Go ahead and shoot them and dont worry about it.
Thanks for all the responses!
Fred Asbell, in his first book, said "an underspined arrow w/ broadhead won't hit the same spot twice. But an overspined arrow will handle a broadhead just fine".
I don't understand the idea of leaving them weak.
IMO I prefer a slightly weak arrow but I prefer to paper tune my bows. Moral of the story is to work with what is best for you. Do a little home testing with a weak and stiff arrow with broadheads attached ,wish you the best of luck
QuoteOriginally posted by Tall Paul:
QuoteOriginally posted by rastaman:
Fletch one up and see if that fixes the 20% problem.
I can fix the 20% by cutting off another 1/8".
What I'm wondering is if they should be a little weak, or a little stiff? [/b]
But you can't put that 1/8" back should it prove just enough of a change to show a slightly too stiff arrow. Like Randy suggested... fletch one and see how it flies... to me it sounds like you're right where you should be "bareshafting". I'm fairly certain Asbell wasn't shooting a slightly stiff "bareshaft" with said broadhead.
My shooting "style" seems to work best with a slightly weaker spine. I have had stiffer shafts that bare shaft perfect then when I fletch them up I get the wobbles during flight. If I leave them a little on the weak side they fly like darts. Like I said it may just be my form or releae that causes this though. Hope that helps.
I've read that when possible you WANT a shaft to be slightly weak when you bare shaft them
Thanks everyone, for the imput!
I researched this topic here on TG quite a bit before I started this thread. Some say slighty weak, and others say slightly stiff.
I know with wood arrows it's better to be slighty stiff. So WHY is it different with carbons?
Aren't the laws of physics the same?
No idea on last question, but would like to comment on OP.
First of all, big time congrats to you for getting to this point. So many people give up on bare shafting. Besides matching your shaft and building your confidence in it, it will also show you shooter technique flaws that can be corrected. The stuff you learn will help you a bunch as you go forward.
Where you are is probably fine with fletch. But for funzies, I would put some duct tape on the nock end to match the fletch weight. I would then start backing up 1 yard at a time. Sometimes stuff will show up at 25 that did not at 20. Its usually non essential, but still fun to prove to yourself you can do it!
Not all highly competent archers agree 100% with regard to this subject.
Permitting your BH tuning to be the determining factor will satisfy your needs.
I know not too many folks may agree with this but I try to get my bare shafts (carbon) flying as perfect as possible. The only problem I see with getting them a "little weak" is that if you put a big broadhead on that's just a little bit on the heavy side you might find them not hitting where you're looking. I "discovered" this while shooting my carbons with some 175 grain Delta's. I couldn't figure out why they were consistently hitting to the right of my other broadheads. (at 30 yards or so. I like testing at longer ranges 'cause it magnifies any problems) I stripped off some feathers and found that with a 175 grain point my shafts were slightly weak. They fly perfect with a 160 grain point. Guess what weight broadhead flies the best? Yep, 160 grains.
I know that the weight of the feathers at the back of the shaft stiffens it up a bit but that's what I observed with my own shooting. With wood,I agree with Asbell, a slightly stiff wooden arrow works fine.
The best/easy way as already been mentioned is fletch one, and if you plan on hunting then shoot said fletched arrow with a BH.
QuoteOriginally posted by Tall Paul:
Thanks everyone, for the imput!
I researched this topic here on TG quite a bit before I started this thread. Some say slighty weak, and others say slightly stiff.
I know with wood arrows it's better to be slighty stiff. So WHY is it different with carbons?
Aren't the laws of physics the same?
Being new to trad but having a fair bit of compund experience during the aluminium to carbon revolution, I would have to say that though the laws of physics are concrete, the physics of the two materials are not comparable. Carbon recovers from paradox much more quickly than aluminium. And I have to imagine that aluminium does so much faster than wood.
That being considered, I would assume that with wood you might prefer to error to the stiff side, but with Carbon error to the light may prevail.
Steve
QuoteOriginally posted by Cato:
No idea on last question, but would like to comment on OP.
First of all, big time congrats to you for getting to this point. So many people give up on bare shafting. Besides matching your shaft and building your confidence in it, it will also show you shooter technique flaws that can be corrected. The stuff you learn will help you a bunch as you go forward.
Where you are is probably fine with fletch. But for funzies, I would put some duct tape on the nock end to match the fletch weight. I would then start backing up 1 yard at a time. Sometimes stuff will show up at 25 that did not at 20. Its usually non essential, but still fun to prove to yourself you can do it!
Sage advice... forgot about that nugget of wisdom... goes to show that members here and their experience are invaluable... and that duct tape is also invaluable.
My $0.02 says leave em a little weak. I personally shoot all my bare shafts a little weak. Seen my broadhead flight more adversely affected by stiff over weak.
Also experienced that a little nock high was more forgiving than a little nock low.
I think it's pretty good you got a bareshaft going! Know many folks that never do.
It's easy to get them going... now getting them to go in the direction you want them to is another story, lol.
I have speculated that the old addage of leave them a little weak came from the time of wood arrows and WOOD bows. Colder weather could have a greater affect on them than our more modern gear. And most hunting seasons are during cold weather. (just me thinkun)
I recall Ken Beck advising to leave shafts a tad stiff rather rhan weak in the Black Widow tuning video.
V I Archer: I've never seen that video. Do you still have it?
ttt
Not to point out the obvious, but why not just fletch 3 as is and shoot them with broadheads to see how they fly? If you're happy with their flight, you're good to go, if not, shorten them a tad. You can talk theory and crunch numbers till you're blue in the face and bareshafting will only get you so far, you have to start shooting with fletch's and bh's to really see well tuned they are.
Leaving them a bit weak is the conventional wisdom. In my case, however, I seem to do better if the are dead nuts on with my fletched arrows.
As a kid in the late 60's I was told that having your shafts a tad weak would compensate for "short drawing the bow" during the moment of truth when you are focused on the animal. I have always tuned this way and so far no problems.
To me, bare shafting is just to get me in the ball park, so 80 percent would be fine. Then I switch to broadheads because that, after all, is what I will shoot at game. If I am shooting the bare shaft with my fletched field points 80 percent or better, I rarely have issues when I switch to broadheads. Everyone has a different take on it, but I think we can all agree that the broadheads MUST hit dead on. If that is happening, go hunting.
Your draw length is so perfect that 1/8" is going to make a difference ??? Mine varies its never the same from shot to shot but my arrows fly good . Paper tuning will drive you nuts !!
My draw length and form are far from perfect. But when I do everything right (solid anchor, etc.) I can see that the shaft is occasionally weak.
In general, if you overdraw, it'll show weak. If you shortdraw, it shows stiff.
So yes, by cutting the arrow down by 1/4" at first, and then by 1/8" as you get closer, you can see a difference.
I'm not paper tuning, but bare shafting will definitely drive you nuts!
QuoteOriginally posted by Running Buck:
As a kid in the late 60's I was told that having your shafts a tad weak would compensate for "short drawing the bow" during the moment of truth when you are focused on the animal. I have always tuned this way and so far no problems.
This I have read too... sound advice for the new hunter who will more than likely get buck fever the first go 'round
A slightly weak bareshaft does not always equate to a weak finished arrow. You could always take another 1/8" off after fletching, if needed.
Tall Paul,
All good advice here, I like to shoot flecthed and bare together and then flectched field points and fletched Broadheads together. One thing not mentioned is if the 20% are the same arrows each time. Not all shafts spine exactly the same, at least I have found this to be true.
Good Luck,
ALDO
I just bareshaft until it looks like there is no kick in flight or very little. then I fire through paper and fine tune it. Seems to work for me since my broadheads and field points shoot awsome with all my bows. try shooting through paper and see what it does
If you're that close you could also tweak your brace height slightly to fine tune!
I agree just a lil weak will be fine when fletched. And of course when you freezing cold and draw a lil short!