Trad Gang

Hi gang.  I am really frusterated trying to sharpen the Wenssel Woodsman Bh.....  

I have a bastard file and use it from heel to front

Then I go to the montec diamond stone 600 then finish with the 1200 easy strokes.

I then go to a leather stop with compound on it

then flip to the smooth side and finish there..

Still teh Broadhead isn't getting all that sharp.. What am i missing?  

Talk to my folks. Talk to me....

Forget the file if they are good heads without damage.  The 30 degree angle of the blade will not have the same feel of sharpness as a 12 degree of a knife.  You are getting a perfect angle everytime you sharpen if you use equal down pressure.  Use a Sharpie to check for total coverage.  It took 20 years to learn this.  Do not over work your head.

So how do I know when is "Sharp Enough" ????

I can get mine shaving sharp with just the file.  If you haven't watched Charlie Lamb's video clip in members videos on how he sharpens them, you need to.  Following the video I can easily shave the hair off my arm, even without going to the stone.  Use a sharpie and once you get full coverage, verrry lightly do each side a few times and you will be amazed at how sharp they get.

I sharpen my Woodsman's until they shave hair off of my forearm. I have had no trouble sharpening the Woodsman's, I have always followed the instructions on the Wensel's Website. You can find the instructions   here. (http://www.woodsman.com/Sharpening.htm)  

The Woodsman's are my favorite broadheads!

Kevin.

Have you looked at the three videos on this link to sharpen the WW broadhead?

http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=17;t=000047;p=0

I'm not impreesed with the woodsmans I got from 3 rivers. I have 3 complaints.
1. They're the loudest head I've ever used. I think a deer could hear them as soon as they leave the bow.
2. I bought the screw in model and out of the 12 heads only 2 have no wobble when I spin checked them. I tried to heat them up and spin them on the adapter to get some wobble out but they won't spin, must be epoxied on.
3. It's probably because of them not being mounted correctly on the adapter but they don't group up at all. I just don't have any faith in them at all. With hunting season starting next Sat. I think I'm outta luck. Any tips would be much appreciated. Mike

Mikecc,

I buy mine without the adapter installed, that way I have control over attaching the adapter and getting good alignment... and I like to glue the 125 grain steel adapters in there.

As for the noise, I have not had a problem with mine being noisy. Maybe you just got a bad batch? I would return them and exchange them or get a new brand if you are not going to feel comfortable.

Kevin.

I always put adapters in myself as Kevin said.I usually shoot bigger heads than the woodsman but due to a shoulder injury a few years ago I hunted with them with a 48 lb longbow. I can`t remember but it was either 13 or 15 deer and hogs I killed with a single woodsman.I file sharpened them and that was it. Sometimes people file sharpen heads with a wore out file and naturaly don`t get good results, not saying this is your case but thought I would mention that. The woodsman is a fine head and will out penatrate most.RC

I watched the videos about sharpening the Wenssel Woodsman.  What kind of file Was he using?
Also what type of stone and honeing oil was it?

Thanks.

Mike- If they don't spin correcty, you don't have to heat them, just apply pressure and you can get them straight. If you really don't like them, let me know if you're intersted in selling. Mine fly better than any broadhead I have ever shot. I have never experienced any noise from them whatsoever.

BD

Charlie will have great instructions on sharpening the WW/Snuffer heads on the DVD Terry is producing, as well as instructions for sharpening 2 blade and 4 blade heads.

I have been very unhappy with mine as well.  I have watched the videos and thought it would be no problem getting them sharp.  I spent 2 hours on 1 head just getting it even on a brand new file.  I used the marker and followed the above mentioned instructions.  After 3 heads my file was nearly worn out.  (it was a brand new Nicholson). The heads were "wavy" and had sort of a curve or concavity to them.  Some had big globs of solder on one side or the other.

I finally got 6 sharp, but I didn't have a week to spend on the other 6.  I sent them back to 3Rivers and they were going to send me the new version that were supposed to be sharp already.  That was in Nov 06 and I still don't have any replacement heads.

I want to use WW heads, but it looks like I'll be using something else instead.  My new heads won't be here for hunting season this year, and I'm ready to give up on them all together.  Looks like I'll be buying some snuffers.

I find them ono of the easiest to sharpen.The key is to use very light strokes with the file once you have them flat.I stick mine in a vice and hit them with a file 3 or 4 times turning as I go.I then use a ceramic rod on each edge like you would a knife edge instead of doing two blades.No more than 5 minuites and they will pop a few hairs and cut a rubber band easy.Really cutting the rubber band is all I am looking for with them because with the size and shape that is plenty sharp. jmo

I was once "Wensel Woodsman Sharpening Challenged" too. However, after following Charlie's how-to exactly step by step, they have become one of my favorite heads. While they may not get as sharp as a 2 blade head, it's pretty darn close...and with just the file I can get the edge on the WW simply wicked. And it is probably the simplest to sharpen once you get the hang of it.

Magic marker the edge bevel to make sure you are getting the surface cut level. Yes, there is some warpage in the blade during the welding process but the file work will even it out perfectly. In my experience, one of the keys is to take the same strokes each side....not working down one side at a time. If you get two perfectly flat and one still has dips etc., keep rotating working all three sides equally. One or two strokes at most per side before rotating.

Even pressure is another key, it's easier to put too much pressure on the back of the blade as you drag it rearward...you have to work at getting the feel of keeping the pressure even.

Progressivly lighter strokes...Once the surfaces are all bright and shiny with all magic marker gone, each blade rotation I make lighter and lighter strokes. Until I am just pushing the weight of the head, rotating each stroke, for about 10 strokes per side for the finish. If you want, you can run it across some other stone or croc stick or whatever, but you won't believe how darn sharp they will get just pulling them across a file.

If you still can't get it with a file, try a belt sander. Terry does his this way and they come out as good as any method I've seen.

Still having problems, send me one you're having trouble with and I'll video what I do to get that particular one sharp. Truly, these are one of the easiest heads to sharpen there is.

No other broadhead gets as much "how do you sharpen them?" attention.

Frankly, I just don't see the attraction to the WW. A difficult to sharpen wedge shaped design, a tip that needs snipping to prevent damage...sorry, in my opinion it's a poorly designed head.

I will take a 2 blade Magnus head over a WW any day.

I prefer Magnus or Zwickey.  They have been around for some time.

I agree with roknjs about the "Wavy" part.All six of mine came from 3 rivers as a Christmas gift and I tried to hone this out by dragging it on my diamond hone sharpener with no luck.If you put them on a flat surface and look at the edge you can really see where it looks as if they were ground or sanded to much about an inch at the back section of the head.I had no problems sharpening them but just couldn't get the curve out.Keefers <")))><

I'm thinking about going with the "NAP Hell Razor"  

I don't mind sharpening a head, but I must be doing something wrong. I have folled the instructions to a tee and still a head that feels , "Less than sharp"....  If I bear down hard enough on my arm, it will take some hair off, but I want it SHARP.

I use a table belt sander ,(fine grit belt and very lite pressure )followed by a fine diamond pad . In minutes they are shaving sharp. I have always use the glue on with steel adapters. They fly true and no noise in flight.

Bill

Guys,
I am with JC and the rest of the pro Woodsman crowd on this one ! It is a great head IMHO. I am quite sure I will never need to buy broadheads again, as long as I do not lose them once they pass thru the animal. Easiest head I have seen to sharpen and also SHARP. I could shave my face with mine. Hate to sound like a broken record, but here are the keys....

1) New 12-14" Nicholson Mill Bastard file
2) Sharpie to blacken edges
3) File with med pressure till Sharpie marks cleaned up all around.
4) Light pressure like JC said using less and less strokes till you get down to one stroke before rotating to next two sides.
5) fine diamond or oil stone if you prefer one stroke per side dragging backwards.
6) Leather dragging backwards as above.

I am a busy man, but just about would offer to sharpen heads for anyone who cannot get them sharp. I actually enjoy sharpening this head that much !!! I have never been able to get a knife as sharp as I can a WW. When they say hair popping sharp they mean it !!!

nocams

I have no trouble getting the WW sharp. I have no trouble with flight/wobble. I did have to clip the tip due to curling. Have not had a chance to kill any thing with them yet. (well, had a chance but passed). I'll see how I do this year.

I would love to try them, but I know that I am "sharpening challenged" so I just use a head that is already sharp from the factory. I use two blade heads so that when they do need re-sharpening, I can put them in the Lansky(a great purchase for the "sharpening challenged").

I took five deer with the same WW last year.  150 gr screw in from 3-Rivers.  File sharpened as above, then a crock stick.  Not surgical razor sharp, but will shave.  I find ultra sharp blades dull quicker.  IMO Best head on the market.  
Here is Number five.  She never heard a thing.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v252/JHarper/HUNTING2006011.jpg)

Mine were wavy.  If you set them on a flat surface they rock from front to back.  I'm going to use a table belt sander as soon as I pick up a fine grit belt.

Sounds more like a quality control issue than a sharpening issue.  Does Magnus still make them or did 3 Rivers take over that also?

Pastor Steve,  PM sent.

I bought a pack last year that had "weld gaps" on them, the replacements I was sent had "wavy" blades and by the time I got them flat there wasn't much left ... so I've stopped bothering with them.

However, just a few general tips.  Make sure your file is sharp and clean.  Many times if you're having trouble it's because your file (or stone) is dull.  Secondly, at least half of sharpening is knowing when to stop.  The 3 blades won't feel as sharp as a  2 blade (at least not to me), but it will still shave hair and pass the rubber band test.

Yep...the bevels aren't very even....I use a belt sander to get them even.  Once you do that, they are a cinch to sharpen....on a flat stone, file, diamond stone, or 'crock stick' type sharpener....and yes, mine DO feel sharp....like razor blades.

The key is getting thos bevels even before you attempt to get them sharp.

I usually pyramid the tip to make it stronger...easy to do while sharpening by simply raising up the rear of the head about a quarter inch while sliding them backwards on a stone, flat diamond stone, or file.

Snuffers are the same way...'wavey' and can be sharpened to a razor blade feel in the same manner above.

Never had a noisy one either, but mine are all mounted straight....I don't buy them with adapers already in them, I do them myself.  

They do penetrait well, and are a great 'all around head' IMO....once you do your part.

you can also take a pc of 4 inch PVC tube and attach pieces of successively finer sandpaper, the wet/dry kind up to say 800 grit or finer, and that will give you a hollow ground edge on your WW or Snuffer taht works very well when I shot them. It was easy, could do it in the living room while watching the tube..as long as I got the blades flat first.

Did that on a belt sander...or a big 14 inch nicholson single cut flat bastard.

Terry,
what do you guys prefer for gluing in adaptors ? I have hot melt and 5 minute epoxy. I was thinking the epoxy would be stronger and give me time to spin it true before the glue sets up ?

nocams

NoCams,

If you don't mind setting up an arrow for a particular shaft, I like the epoxy.  That way I don't ever worry about them pulling off when pulling them out of practice targets.

Steve

NoCams  - I like JB Weld.

Shoot a Snuffer, WW's are great heads but it seems people have trouble gettong tem sharp, a Snuffer is easy to sharpen. Shawn

I use a belt sander first w/120 gr. belt, set them on it nice and flat w/light pressure, just till marker is gone and they are shiny, then I just take a 1200 grit diamond stone and use it like a file, 40 strokes per side, then 20, then 10 and then 5 very light strokes w/just the weight of stone, they are very very sharp after this..It takes about 5 min. ahead once you get the hang of it.

Epoxy.

QuoteOriginally posted by Shawn Leonard:
Shoot a Snuffer, WW's are great heads but it seems people have trouble gettong tem sharp, a Snuffer is easy to sharpen. Shawn

I just can't understand how folks can sharpen Snuffers but not Woodsmen?? I use exactly the same procedure on both & can't honestly say that one is easier than the other. It's exactly the same job, done in the same way. Getting the initial angle on the bevels is a bit time consuming, say 5 minutes per head, but once that's done it's just a case of giving 'em a few light strokes on a whetstone. I don't bother with a crock stick or leather, 14" mill file (or worn out belt sander, if I'm in a hurry) & then a fine, 600 grit whetstone, usually 10-15 stokes per side. Like Terry suggests, I also pyramid the tips & in my, admittedly limited, experience they fly, cut & penetrate beautifully. I use a fast-set epoxy to set 'em on 75gn adapters.

I use power bond for the inserts as it is heat reversible if needed.

Funny thing is. I'm not sharpening challenged.  I can get them sharp.  It just takes forever to sharpen them.  I have followed all the instructions here and I've used a belt sander.  By the time I get the waves out of them I've whittled them down to nothing, it seems.

I like the head, when its sharp, but I"m tired of trying so hard.  I was hoping to get the "new and improved" version of the head, but it doesn't seem like its going to happen.  Its only been 10 months.

Terry , nailed it ...get them even...and that works! :)

Worked up my firt WW's last night.  I had all the tools at my disposal and I must say you best have some time on your hands for the initial sharpening. I started on the big file with the first one and quite a while later I resigned myself to the belt sander to even out the edges so I could put the finished edge on. I am curious to get the finished product on a scale to see where my 150 grain head is now. That said, once I got them evened out it was pretty easy to finish them up and they do fly soooo sweet.

Like I said earlier.....get to a belt sander and it don't take long after that.  If you finesse them just right, you can make them hunting sharp right there on the belt sander.....kinda like a sharp file edge.

QuoteOriginally posted by Roger Norris:
..sorry, in my opinion it's a poorly designed head.

Roger,

Always like to read your post, but gotta address this one.....

There's a BIG difference in a 'poorly designed' head, and a 'poorly manufactured' head.

Nothing wrong with the design, as it really penetrates well, and does its work if you do yours in making the shot.  Its just got some manufacturing deficiencies by the company that's commissioned to make them. NOTE: These heads are NOT manufactured by Gene and Barry, but were designed by them.

If they came with the bevels even, it would be real easy to put a razor edge on them....and its a piece of cake to pyramid the head to make it more durable.

I addressed this same company, that also manufactures Snuffers, about this very problem with Snuffers before Trad Gang ever existed....and they have yet to address it as it seems.

My 2 cents . I make a jig using two 2x4's with a small seperation between the pieces as they lay beside one another. This lets me set one blade down securely and have two blades up to run the file across. The file I use is very fine and only about 5 or 6 inches long 1/2 inch wide. Like has been mentioned very light strokes , I do maybe two or three strokes and then rotate the broadhead until satisfied that every edge is sharp. Next and most important for me is I lay a triangular ceramic sharpening rod flat and slowly draw the broadhead from back to tip across the rod . The end result is scary sharp , Using this method they are sharper than any two blade for me. Most important is light strokes repeated with both the file and ceramic

Terry - I said poorly designed based on these observations:

1. The adherence to the 3:1 ratio (time proven, I know) puts the blades so close together that the edge angle is not easy to address ( I'm thinking 6' file vs. a beltsander here).

2. That needle point...sure, it's easy to get right, but why is it there?

3.Some of you guys have gotten real good at sharpening these. I applaud the effort I'm reading about here. Belt sanders, 14" files, etc. I believe you guys when you say they will shave.  But I have NEVER seen one (and I have seen a couple in hunting camps) that are as sharp as a good 2 bladed head. How many guys are hunting these heads without all the effort you folks put into them? I think we can at least agree that it isn't the simplest head to sharpen...

I should have said "poorly designed in my opinion"...thats all it is, my opinion.


P.S...I sat down with a toolmaker friend several times over the course of six months, and tried to design the ultimate broadhead...at the end of six months we had nothing but a head I consider "poorly designed"...so I don't mean those words as harsh as they sound.  ;)

Does anyone know what angle the WW's are. It's my understanding to get a shaving sharp edge you need the angle somewhere between 17 & 22 degrees.

I can get them what I would call hunting sharp but not scary sharp. In other words they will shave hair with a little pressure but won't pop hairs on their own weight.

I use a wide file that gets two edges at once and then a fine diamond stone.

MikeW
The angle is 30 degrees, but who cares.... Keep working at it and you will be able to get them scary sharp soon !

nocams

I've always found the WW's to be quite simple to sharpen.  I use a 6 or 8 inch mill file and file two edges at the same time from heel to point, rotating the head with each file stroke, until the head is sharp.  Some pressure is OK initially, but very light pressure is needed to make them sharp.  I then finish it with a ceramic stick or fine diamond, again working two edges together, but now working more across the blades rather than heel to point.  Use light pressure here, too.  From new to done is just a few minutes and when done will shave hair easily, snag your thumbnail or pop the rubber band.  Yes, I have noticed that the blades aren't ground exactly straight, but it really doesn't seem to make a difference.  

I've hunted with WW's and have seen four deer shot with WW's I've sharpened like this; none made it more than 50 yds.

I normally hunt with an Ace Express 2-blade, but wouldn't hesitate to shoot a WW, either.

I like the idea above about a jig to put them in.  I might have to come up with a jig to use with my belt sander.

Ron,

I don't use a jig....jut lay them two blade down at the same time...and rotate.  Set one aside when it gets too hot for you to handle and start another, and go back and start over till you get all the bevels the same.

How big is the belt sander you're using?  I have a 1" I use for my knives but it runs vertically.

After reading this I decided to try and sharpen some I had gotten in trade.I bought a new 12" Nicholson file.I clamped it down and used the method Charlie showed in the video.The sharpie on the edges is a must i can see why people can have problems.You have to watch the hand pressure on the head to get an even bevel.After that i held it in my hand and using the other side of the file alternated strokes from medium to just the weight of the file.Doing it this way just gave me more "feel" for the edge.I then used a steel to hone and they are shaving sharp.Not what I would call scared to handle sharp but no doubt they would kill  a deer.Gonna try some ultra fine sandpaper and see if I can polish the edge a bit.In all I had 4 heads sharp in about 45 min.i did not use a stone,just file and hone.


CB

I went home and took a belt sander to my new ww broadhead and it took all the time consuming work out of getting it sharp.Just as terry said.Once I sanded it down in about 3 minuts. I hit on the file then diamond stone then leather went from 21 minuts a head to about 8 minuts.And yes it's very sharp.

beltsander vs 6" file.

I can remember talking with Terry about sharpening Snuffers way before he started Trad Gang.  Fact is he sent me a WW that he sharpened; had a secret code (to me) that he had painted on the head. Terry remember the soap?

When I was getting my gear together for this years elk hunt I found that head in my gear box and its in number one position in my quiver.  So hopefully it will have an elk to show for itself !

I too have noticed that Snuffers seem to get a little sharper than WW.  At first I thought I was doing something just a little different but that didn't seem to be the answer.  

Now, I attributed that to the fact that while the angle (120 degrees) has to be the same, the distance between the blades is a little greater...therefore the  sharpening angle is less acute (severe) so it is actually sharper.

Yes, the problems with the blades being "wavey" is still with us...perhaps it has something to do with the heat applied during the welding process.  Still after all this time the problem should have been solved.

Seems to be  lots of different ways to get them sharp.  If you are not successful going heel to toe then try holding the head perpendicular to your stone.

Also they seem to really respond to stropping, just makes a huge difference in the final results.

Bob

I see ya'll are using the flat belt sander what about using a bench grinder?


CB

I have the same complaints as many have stated above including the folks that think they are great.  They took alot of belt sanding to get the edges in the same plane.  I did three and quit.

So help me understand this.  I don't understand buying a product like a broadhead then having to machine the heck out of it to get it to a point where it should have been when I opened the pack.  It is ok if they aren't sharp, yet they should be ready to sharpen.   To me, that is a poor product and who trusts poor products when you need it most.

It is a little like buying a finished bow and then having to tiller it and then bragging how good the bow maker is.  Isn't it?

Any broadhead that is sharp will kill a deer (and most other things for that matter) and there are hundreds to choose from.  Why give a product a second thought if they aren't even produced right?

- Dave

I borrowed a big file from the tool and die department at the plant where I work. I had to clean the grease off it. I used a sharpie on the edges of the broadhead. About 5 minutes each on the file, applying pressure  at different points on the broadhead until the ink was removed. My daughter had got me a little fishing hook stone for christmas. I ran the broadheads across that a couple of times. I then stropped them across my bluejeans a few time. They shave like a razor. I've never got a head sharper.

People must be getting bad batches of broadheads, because sharpening mine was too easy.

As far as the bad design of the angle--Like I said, mine are razor sharp.

After getting the heads straight on the adaptor, they shoot great.  :archer:

So now a new question:  Long ago, an elderly acquaintance who worked as a machinest/tool maker etc.  told me that one should always "chalk a file"---I was too young and dumb to ask the questions that now arise in my mind.

What purpose does the chalk serve?  What kind of chalk?  Is it used in all kinds of filing situations or some specific instances?

The chalk fills in the space between the teeth and prevents metal fillings fron building up in the file.They also make a file card which is a small wire brush to clean out the teeth.


CB

QuoteOriginally posted by lt-m-grow:
So help me understand this.  I don't understand buying a product like a broadhead then having to machine the heck out of it to get it to a point where it should have been when I opened the pack.  It is ok if they aren't sharp, yet they should be ready to sharpen.   To me, that is a poor product and who trusts poor products when you need it most.
- Dave

I think that the fact is; all fixed blade, cut on contact broadheads (with one or two noteable exceptions) are mass produced in this way. I would bet you'll find that nearly all of then have some blade deviation due to the uneven heat applied during the welding process. It's just that it becomes more apparrent on the Wensels & Snuffers due to the way they are sharpened. When you sharpena 2-blade head, you're not comparing one edge to another, or even both sides of the same edge. If one side is slightly concave & the other convex you would be hard presses to notice, but because you're moving metal on 2 grinds of a 6-grind, 3 blade head you're always going to compare one side to the other & therefore imperfections become obvious.
If you're having that much trouble getting them sharp, might I suggest just watching Charlies tutorial or reading Terry's advice& following it to the letter Once you've had them sharp once (5 minutes per head max, if you follow the instructions) re-touching is a 30 second job & it's a good enough head to warrant the time & effort.

I must be the only on that uses the "snuffer" true angle file kit to sharpen my WW?????  It is the one with two nicholson files at an angle....this changes the angle on the WW so that it is sharper(knife like) and not so blunt (hatchet like).  It also has a small leather strop block in the kit that is set at the same angle.  There are 5 guys I hunt with that use this sharpening kit with both WW, snuffers, and other cut on contact 3 blades.  IT WORKS GREAT.....after ya get the blades all even and the angle changed....and yes they will shave.

Yes....it is some work, but if we wanted it easy would we be shooting traditional gear????????

thanks
citori