Well,
Bow season here in Wisconsin opens Satruday.
I rarely hunt opener, but utilize the weekend for setting up stands and trimming shooting lanes(and fishing for smallies and musky!)
This is the first time I'm going by myself. Usually my brother-in-law(limbhanger on here) or my dad is with me.
The last couple of years there have been an increasing number of wolves in my area(Presque Isle)
I'm not really worried about bears, but the wolves bother me a little. Hearing them howl at times, it seems like they are 100 yards away from me. I did not apply for Wisconsins first year of wolf tags.
I do not own a handgun.
Do I borrow my buddies 44 mag, or just carry my Grizzly bear spray?
Setting up stands in the middle of no-where is a little creepy as well. I will be using a harness when setting stands, but if something happens.....Hope my wife isn't reading this. LOL
I say 44 Mag all the way, but that is just my opinion.
Good Luck
44 mag X 2
Some say they think spray is more effective, however bear spray doesn't hit with 970 ft/lbs at 1550 fps. (Hornady 240 HP XTP)
44 X 3
with choice between spray and handgun...i would prefer to take both in hopes that bear will be downwind and just a whiff will send it on its way. I shoot all the time...have my entire life from .22 up through the heaviest handgun loads you can muster for a Ruger revolver. I shoot heavy .45-70 loads as well from my Marlin 1895....so I am used to recoil and know I dont shoot my 325gr .45 ++P loads as well as I do the standard loads..not by long shot...it takes practice and you got to be recoil in-sensitive a bit. One good thing is once you have practiced...you wont notice recoil once adrenaline pumps in you but then it makes you likely less accurate.
if strong cross or headwinds though....or a bear that likes a little spice with his snacks....I will be glad to have my Ruger Super Blackhawk Bisley Hunter single action in .45Colt using very stout Buffalo Bore loads that I shoot all the time...or a Ruger Redhawk in .44mag with Garret Hammerheads or Buffalo Bore loads as well.
If money was no option might get a Freedom Arms or BFR in .475Linebaugh or .454 Casull but would want to practice with it quite a bit and build up to full loads to ensure I could hit what I intended under stress.
If you don't shoot a powerful handgun a lot, don't expect to hit much in a stressful situation. The odds of you being attacked by a bear/wolf/sasquatch are pretty slim to none, anyhow. If bear spray gives you a warm fuzzy feeling, then by all means take it along. Otherwise, just hunt and enjoy your time in the woods.
Any cartridge that can take down a man could handle a wolf. So a 44 mag will get the job done with power to spare. If you are not experienced with a handgun you might want to get some experience. It is easier to miss something than you think -- even something the size of a wolf. Also the first time you shoot a 44 mag the recoil will impress you. You don't want that first shot shock to be in an emergency situation.
My 2 cents worth.
I am a Kimber man myself...mace for bears, broadheads and .45 lead for canines.
If your only worried about the wolfs a 22 mag will work. I would be more worried about the bears. 44 mag +4 In our bow seasons you can't have any fire arm on you while bow hunting. Would love to get close to a wolf.
Wissler. I hunt northern Wisconsin where we have more than a few wolves, and I frequently hear them and occasionally see them. The odds of having to use a gun to defend yourself is slim to none. That being said, I carry a 10mm Glock. I chose to do this because most of our bloodtrailing is at night and I try to bring my kids to teach them a thing or two. Again, the odds are outrageously small that I'd ever need a gun, and no one has been killed, but I refuse to be the first. Besides, my arrows are too expensive to use on the plethora of Porkies eating our trees!
Choose either. They both deter a bear by inflecting enough grief that the bear loses interest in you. Neither are immediately lethal. The only advantages to bear spray are that it is lighter and easier to hit the bear with. The best choice may be to simply use your bow. It's an impressive weapon.
In my experience as a cop for over thirty years the vast majority of people who think they are good with a gun aren't. No disrespect intended, but that's just the way it is.
Add to that a low light situation and being pumped up with adrenilin and trying to hit a target that is likely moving besides, well I hope you see my point.
Not saying not to carry, just put in some time and effort to get good enough to make it useful.
I would opt for a 357 over the 44, much easier to shoot well.
BAK is right-carry a riot gun, does not take hours at the range to perfect. Wasn"t an option listed, but he-motion makes many miss what would be sure hits on calm days. Buckshot cuts well, and if you get a false charge, a shot int he ground maybe all you need to deter the beast.
I was hunting blue grouse this weekend and saw much bear scat. Longbow in the hand and pistol in the shoulder rig-mostly to make noise as our bears are rarely aggressive.
Thanks for all of the input so far.
I will not be bowhunting most likely, only setting up stands, and clearing shooting lanes. Maybe I'll be hunting on Sunday morning.
I am very confident with my Dads 357 out to 30 yards, but the targets are "never" moving. It's too nice of a gun to let me drag it around the woods though. Dads in his 70's and real anal about his stuff.
I would go with a 44 magnum and possibly a larger calliber if you can handle it. When it comes down to your personal safety I certaintly don't want to leave anything to chance. If I was going to be hunting somewhere that had bears and wolves around I would carry at least a 44 magnum semi automatic equipped with a laser sight (as Mac said if something happens it will probably be dark and your target will be moving, not to mention most people would be scared to wits end if a bear or wolf charged them).
just my opinion...I HAVE been charged by bear twice.....have never been charged by a wolf....I would worry A LOT more about bears than wolves.......just my opinion and experiances.....carry spray..... :dunno:
QuoteOriginally posted by JamesKerr:
I would go with a 44 magnum and possibly a larger calliber if you can handle it. When it comes down to your personal safety I certaintly don't want to leave anything to chance. If I was going to be hunting somewhere that had bears and wolves around I would carry at least a 44 magnum semi automatic equipped with a laser sight (as Mac said if something happens it will probably be dark and your target will be moving, not to mention most people would be scared to wits end if a bear or wolf charged them).
.44 mag is a revolver cartridge.
If it were me, I would aways opt for something that goes BANG, over something that goes pssst.
QuoteOriginally posted by JimB:
QuoteOriginally posted by JamesKerr:
I would go with a 44 magnum and possibly a larger calliber if you can handle it. When it comes down to your personal safety I certaintly don't want to leave anything to chance. If I was going to be hunting somewhere that had bears and wolves around I would carry at least a 44 magnum semi automatic equipped with a laser sight (as Mac said if something happens it will probably be dark and your target will be moving, not to mention most people would be scared to wits end if a bear or wolf charged them).
.44 mag is a revolver cartridge. [/b]
uummm... my Ruger Deerfield was not a handgun. ;)
QuoteOriginally posted by Thumper Dunker:
If your only worried about the wolfs a 22 mag will work. I would be more worried about the bears. 44 mag +4 In our bow seasons you can't have any fire arm on you while bow hunting. Would love to get close to a wolf.
WARNING!!! this guy has an ulterior motive!! I have read his posts!! He only gets close to wild dogs for one reason.
God Bless,
Nathan
44 MAG
Id be more worried about bears than wolves.
In other words, its a non-issue. Through and through.
Im not just a southern boy talking here either. I did plenty of 2 week long deer camps in the western UP not 10 years ago during my 25 years in Michigan.
I was within 40 yards of bears on a regular basis and never saw a wolf. Only heard them....at night.
I will double what T says about wolves. I would be more worried about bears and cats any day of the weak than a wolf! known attacks are extremely rare (moose john milovich is one of two on record and its not confirmed...but it might be the names sake for the infamous moose john river...hummmm something to think about cough cough)
I hunt around grizzlies and blacks routinely and have spent a hunt around a young polar bear that had roamed south with no real problems to speak of. We all know the demeanor of polars...they need no recognition in this circle.
I dont carry a handgun
I do carry pepper spray. I trust my life to pepper spray.
Those who advocate pistols of any kind.....usually are ones who know little about the situation..>OR< carry and ARE proficient with them in the first place. Unfortunatly there's an even bigger gene pool who believe they NEED to carry....this after working behind a gun counter for awhile now only confirmed what I've learned being around this kind of country most of my adult life.
There's a huge difference to someone who knows how to operate one...to a person whose proficent with one in a ...hmm 'stressful' situation to put it nicely LOL! Most of us can drive a car...it doesnt mean we belong on a nascar race track....after all who cant make a left hand turn over and over and over again...haha! What a boring sport ;)
Shotguns are another one that I think are often over looked. alternating slugs/buckshot is probably the best round you can go with imho for bear deterrent/defense. but you gotta lug a gun around and have it at the ready ALL THE TIME! not slung/strapped to a pack etc.... or slung under a jacket as many do in the cold weather carry handguns!
The reality is pepper spray isnt ment to kill a bear....and you're not going to be spraying a bear 50 yards away either, they will be feet! So enough with the pepper spray banter! It's all a joke till the guy and his wife were mauled and killed, with a pistol and shotgun in hand a couple years back on the slope...doesnt do a damn bit of good when you're dead what kind of firearm you're toting along if you cant or dont get rounds in the air!
and it WILL NOT! read WILL NOT stop them in their tracks. A shot in a million may....do you trust your life to that? a super charged adrenaline filled 1000lbs of hungry pissed off charging moving animal ready to rip your head off and you got 1/2" to hit ? Lungs are out, heart is out..you're dead before the bear dies......... You dont have time to tinkle before you're hit! Only those who have seen first handedly what a adrenaline packed brown bear can take will understand my point when it comes to whats enough to carry! If you're hell bent on carrying, you'd best do some soul searching on whats the biggest round you can still be proficent with when you're bottoms trying to come out of your throat, breathing ceases and you're eyeballs are as big as an alaskan pumpkin on steroids!
things to think about when choosing protection. This isnt a human assaliant....until you've been charged/bluffed/had your camp ruined/brownie 2 feet from your head, offering ill offered opinions is going to end up with another person sitting on the front page papers due to 'i'm bad enough syndrome....I've got a gun thats all I need'. If you carry one you'd best know how to use it! Practice with it to the point you can do it in your dreams...load in the dark and never skip a beat in the process.....many can, a LOT cannot!!! Decide where you fall....your life depends on it!!!
I engage in this very topic more often than I care to admit and it sickens me to hear/read/listen to some of the advice given when this question comes up in any circle...some is sound, some...well I'll keep my thoughts to myself there!!!! The seriousness of the question at hand goes much farther than a wi black bear! Some of you or those reading, will end up here or in another part of the country that you had best be squared away or play the game of chance! Gambling and me go very poorly together, I'm not going to start now and I would advise those who walk this path to do the same!
All seriousness aside....spend time really thinking about your situation, your need, your concerns, your experience, your dedication, and your drive...you'll find your answers uncovered when you do a little soul searching...whichever it may be, there is no wrong in any of them as they've all proven effective at their intended purposes in the right pair of hands!!!
Sorry guys ment to type a 45 caliber not 44.
Smith and Wesson J Frame in .357 with Crimson Trace Grips. In my truck, pocket or waistband most everywhere I go. Being in the outdoors alone, two legged critters are a bigger threat than the four legged variety.
You guys knew someone from Alaska would eventually chime in on this thread.
A couple of points on guns and spray. Our own fish and Game Department gives training on bear protection for those with jobs that find themselves often in the field. Our own Larry Lewis (seen in a couple episodes of Alaska State Troopers, Wildlife Division) teaches the course.
On guns: If your going to use a handgun for bear protection a .44 magnum is the smallest caliber considered effective. More importantly is the bullet used in the cartridge. Due to the shape of bear skulls it is not advised to use a hollow point bullet and it is best to use a composition of both lead and tin. A harder less splattering bullet. Most custom bear rounds for .44 are in the 225 grain on up and loaded hot!
The firearm considered best suited for bear protection by the ADF&G is the 12 gauge. I was silly enough to try and answer what the best rounds to load for 12 gauge protection is and I was completely wrong! I gave a combination of slug and buckshot and was given the thumbs down. It was as many sabots your magazine can hold, period.
On spray: Considered highly effective, but the biggest consideration is wind. There are cases throughout BC and Alaska where the individual sprayed and the wind put the spray back in their face and they effectively disabled themselves.
I know this thread is about black bear and I just want to share something out of our hunting regulations. This is not verbatim, but it goes something like this: If you are attacked by a brown bear protect your head and play possum. If you are attacked by a black bear, fight as though you are about to loose your life...Black bears unlike brownies will eat you on the spot. Brown bears if they take your life will burry you under a mound of debris(called a cache)and protect you from other predators. The digestion system of brown bear are more suited for decomposing flesh and organs. However, most bear maulings are not fatal and statistics show a great percentage of bear maulings occur to people who were carrying a firearm.
Just some things to share.
~CB
Sometimes I'm really glad I live in TX ;)
I would do the spray, no reason to start shooting a gun, safer for you too since you don't own one and the spray is lighter in weight. You will not need either.
I always heard that buying a bear tag was the best way to insure you won't see one.
I don't know much about wolves, but I know a fair amount about guns. I agree with those who would caution you of the difficulties of shooting a handgun under stress. However, the bang of the gun may well discourage a wolf. If you are going to carry a gun, take the time to learn how to use it.I would be more concerned about a bear. I THINK a wolf could hurt me, but I KNOW a bear can. All that said, I would carry both. I carry a .45 Glock every time I go in the woods.
With the pot growers poping up in the big woods I carry my CCW a Kimber 45 with extra clip.
I do not know it is there but handy if needed. I hope I never do.
Better to be sure and have one than wish you did.
I practice quite a bit and can handle what I carry. If a 22 is all that you can shoot well than carry that. A well placed shot no matter what size will bring down .......
Don't worry James a 44. mag in a semi auto will out perform a 45. any day, and yes they do make 44. mag in a semi auto.
45's are not for bears.
You are better off to use spray!
We just had another Hunter attacked up the Muskwa area in northern BC. Story so far is he got two rounds into a charging sow, which must have pissed her off because it tore him apart. Sounds like he's lucky to be alive but will be on a long, long road to recovery.
Boy you are right TD.I forgot about the Desert Eagle.Sorry James.I never knew anyone to carry one for protection as they are extremely heavy,bulky and reputed to have feeding problems.
I carry handguns most of the time when I'm outdoors and have taken a few dozen big game animals with them including bears and lions.I guess that's what I am familiar with so that's what I carry.I'm not saying it's the top choice.
Having said that,if I were in the OP's situation,I would go for the spray.Chances are you won't need it either but it takes time to become proficient at still targets with a .44.A borrowed one,I don't think would help much.
We are talking black bear and wolves. I think biggest issue here is a borrowed handgun is bad idea. Any votes for the judge revolver? Very easy to learn to use and reliable. I think i would sleep well with it and some buck shot and slugs. I wanted to put in a vote for a shrew hawk. I feel pretty confident with it hanging on my side and makes great camp and tree stand prep tool. I think it's one of coolest purchases I've made. Anyway have fun. I've found that the more tired I get after couple days sleeping on the ground I tend to not worry as much about comfort or things wanting to eat me.
I don't know where he got his statistics, but I heard an experienced guide say that bear spray was 90% effective at stopping bears in their tracks and turning them around. On the otherhand, with a handgun you have to hope to get accurate hits on the charging beast, and then he still might end up on top of you, only in a much worse mood.
To the original post though, I don't know about bear spray's effectiveness against wolves. I don't recall ever hearing it suggested as an option for anyhting other than bears before.
without going back into the whole story since I posted it on the backup gun section underdangerous game and on the handgun post here I build hunting revolvers in calibers up to .510 but my carry weapon is a 44spcl or 45LC. The spcl with my handloads will handle bears. I've been in sticky situations with cats and bears and a handgun saved my life with a cat. As far as the dogs some of you may not be aware of the woman bowhunter in Idaho this year that was charged by a wolf and killed it with the 44mag she was carrying. Recoil from the 44 is relative to the person shooting it, to me they don't even registered compared to my 475 and 500 Linebaughs but the only way to find out is get out and shoot it to see if your comfortable with it. Bear spray isn't as effective as it's made out to be, especially when an animal is already worked up but a bullet will always get the job done if you do your part.
.475 linebaugh ya baby!!! saw one with pearl ivory scallops...what a piece!!!!
I don't think I have read of many wolf attacks. I think they are extremely rare-other than on TV. Bear attacks are rare as well. I think I have read that pepper spray is less effective on black bears than on Grizzlies. When black bears decide to attack they are serious about it. I live in black bear country and lion country and I don't arm up for either. I am more likely to carry a .22 for grouse than a gun for bears or cats. I do have pepper spray. Ummmm. I tried it once just to make sure it would still deploy. I was standing out the back door and the wind was coming across right to left. When I squeezed off a extremely short burst the yellow cloud made a big circle in the wind current and was now approaching from my right.( I know you bowhunters can understand a swirling wind.) I ducked for the back door but caught a bit of the yellow cloud. By the time I got the door shut I was already gasping. By the time I reached the lap top and booted up to search for an antedote I was running from the eyes and nose, my throat was tightening up.
The lesson...pepper spray would probably put me on the ground where the bear could dine easily.
The effect on me was impressive!
When I go into the woods, I don't carry anything for bears or wolves. I just hope that the smell of a hot, fresh load in my pants will discourage any bears or other critters from devouring me.
Chignik, AK 2010
Special Education Teacher from Pennsylvania.
http://www.alaskadispatch.com/article/wolves-killed-alaska-teacher-2010-state-says
It must be remembered that wolf populations are thriving up here and this land is different than many. Wolves have never been re-established, just managed. Wolves up here can spend there entire life without a human encounter. Perhaps other than the legal aerial assaults!
We provide all our clients with bear (pepper)spray. And is what I endorse completely. Unless it's Jerry Miculek I'm not loaning any firearm for bear duty...
Plenty of bears here in MT, too. And plenty of hunters get mauled. I carry pepper spray, and there is a reason F&W officials do as well, where they are a problem. It works best!
No griz in WI, last I knew, and I would'nt worry about it. Black bears and wolves are not a likely problem at all. We have both of those as well, and have almost no problems in their interactions with hunters/people.
Mountain lions are another worry altogether here, and they will come into calling setups, and stalk hunters....especially bow hunters. And their motivations for doing so are quite different than those of a griz, which is likely charging in his own self-defence. That's why playing dead works, and why bear spray works...IMO. Look at the animals motivations for attacking you and then decide, if you still feel threatened, what to carry. That includes humans for some. That's my 2 cents.
I live in NE WI right on the UP of MI border. We have bears and wolves and plenty of both. In the 40 years of hunting here and elsewhere, I have never had a threatening issue with bear or wolves. (Cats are another story altogether.) However, IMO the potential does exist with bears more-so than with wolves here. There have been several documented and non-documented cases of black bear attacks to humans in WI. I think most if not all were due to cubs being very close to the people. One encounter happened while an individual was on-stand and had no other option but to try and defend himself as the cubs curiosity had them seeking out the hunter.
As another person has already pointed out, be sure to check the state hunting regulations regarding handgun carry during the archery season! Yes, we have conceal carry now in WI, but that does not permit you to "hunt" with the handgun and a game warden is likely to question you accordingly.
I have always avoided all bear issues with noise. They don't want to go anywhere near someone making a loud noise. The same holds true for wolves. If you see one (bear or wolf) and if you don't want it to get anywhere near you, just blow a sports referee type whistle. A whistle is safe, reliable, legal and very effective. It will scare them out of there in a hurry (and it is also good to have one along in case you ever need help). I learned this from my cousin who works for Idaho Fish & Game. He does fish counts for them and encounters bears on a daily basis when he is in the field. He doesn't carry spray or a gun on him when working (even though he is actually required to have it in his truck) as he has never had an issue when he just makes a little noise.
captain caveman, I own a Taurus Judge and have it stoked here at home with Winchester home defense rounds--three slugs and 12 BBs per shell. That might also discourage a wolf or bear and wouldn't be too tough to hit with at relatively close range I think, but no experience with such situations like some of the folks posting here.
Yeah, a handgun will get the job done.....ONLY if you do your part.
Doing your part on a charging animal, be it a wolf or bear, is going to be tricky at best. When you have to hit a critical central nervous system component in the heat of the moment, my money is on that you wont wound the animal, you will miss entirely.
Spray, wind factors considered, will pose a much better hit potential, if you blind yourself in the process, well, hopefully the statistics are right. If they are not, well, that bear was gonna get you whether you were blind or not.
Id also be willing to bet the vast majority of us are not as proficient with a handgun as we are telling ourselves. That goes the same for a bow for that matter.
When bear hunting I carry a pocketful of rocks to chunk at any overly aggressive bear I might meet along the way . . . but then I'm from Kaintuck, and we tend to be pretty good at chunkin rocks :^)
I hunt where there are grizzlys pretty regularly. I don't carry anything but my bow, but then I don't carry a lightning rod either and the odds of getting hit by lightning are much higher than getting attacked by a bear.
Spray 95% effective
guns, including longguns 70% effective
Ever watch the rolling ball down the hill test?
Even the good shots were ineffective.
dead wolves dont bite. I like my colt 1911 45.
QuoteOriginally posted by stagetek:
If it were me, I would aways opt for something that goes BANG, over something that goes pssst.
I agree with Mike on this one.....BANG!
You're talking northern Wisconsin, not Alaska. I've been hunting in far northern Wisconsin for more than 30 years and have never felt threatened by wolves or bears. You don't need spray or a gun, just some cahones. :bigsmyl:
QuoteOriginally posted by wissler:
Well,
Bow season here in Wisconsin opens Satruday.
I rarely hunt opener, but utilize the weekend for setting up stands and trimming shooting lanes(and fishing for smallies and musky!)
This is the first time I'm going by myself. Usually my brother-in-law(limbhanger on here) or my dad is with me.
The last couple of years there have been an increasing number of wolves in my area(Presque Isle)
I'm not really worried about bears, but the wolves bother me a little. Hearing them howl at times, it seems like they are 100 yards away from me. I did not apply for Wisconsins first year of wolf tags.
I do not own a handgun.
Do I borrow my buddies 44 mag, or just carry my Grizzly bear spray?
Setting up stands in the middle of no-where is a little creepy as well. I will be using a harness when setting stands, but if something happens.....Hope my wife isn't reading this. LOL
From what I understood about the law and what was explained to me from a warden, you're not allowed to carry a pistol while bow hunting unless you have a CC permit. Now what you do on your own land is up to you I suppose, but I err on the side of caution regarding the law(I have a CC permit).
Bear spray is fine for WI - I'd be more worried about wolves than bears, but that's my own opinion.
The chances of getting attacked by black bear is so close to zero it is not worth concerning yourself about. Us whimpy BWCA canoeists cross paths with them all the time, it is not a big deal until they are running away with your food pack and even then some stern words and a rock will get your food back. The wolves are a completely different deal. No one in history has ever been attacked by a wild wolf. How anyone should flatter themselves into thinking that they will be the first is beyond me.
" No one in history has ever been attacked by a wild wolf. How anyone should flatter themselves into thinking that they will be the first is beyond me. "
Yes,they have.Rare,but there have been fatalities.Same goes for coyotes.
For what it's worth, there has been considerable research done on the handgun vs. bear spray debate. ALL things point to bear spray. Rarely, a bear will be taken down by shooting it and even rarer are you able to take it out with one shot. Research also says that people get more severely injured when they do use a gun over bear spray. Now, I know that I'm referring to bear, which is what the research is done on, but I'd be willing to bet that the same will hold true for wolves. In reality toting a gun around gives us a warm and fuzzy feeling inside but when the situation arises that we actually need to use it it is useless at best and dangerous at best. So, my advice would be that if you want to get that warm fuzzy feeling inside then bring the gun, but make sure you have that bear sprayand that's what you go to first!
QuoteOriginally posted by pavan:
The chances of getting attacked by black bear is so close to zero it is not worth concerning yourself about. Us whimpy BWCA canoeists cross paths with them all the time, it is not a big deal until they are running away with your food pack and even then some stern words and a rock will get your food back. The wolves are a completely different deal. No one in history has ever been attacked by a wild wolf. How anyone should flatter themselves into thinking that they will be the first is beyond me.
Yeah they have. A woman bow hunter in Idaho was attacked by one that she shot and killed. It was a pretty big deal
singer in canada attacked and killed by coyotes....on busy park trail
QuoteOriginally posted by Shane C:
For what it's worth, there has been considerable research done on the handgun vs. bear spray debate. ALL things point to bear spray. Rarely, a bear will be taken down by shooting it and even rarer are you able to take it out with one shot. Research also says that people get more severely injured when they do use a gun over bear spray. Now, I know that I'm referring to bear, which is what the research is done on, but I'd be willing to bet that the same will hold true for wolves. In reality toting a gun around gives us a warm and fuzzy feeling inside but when the situation arises that we actually need to use it it is useless at best and dangerous at best. So, my advice would be that if you want to get that warm fuzzy feeling inside then bring the gun, but make sure you have that bear sprayand that's what you go to first!
Actually there have been a lot of bears stopped by handguns but I would still like to see your links to those studies.
These threads come up often and always,there are a lot of opinions offered.I wonder how these threads would go if the OP asked " if you have never used Pepper spray on a bear or killed a bear with a handgun,please don't respond." ???
Anybody???
Not sure where in Montana you are from (wish I was still there) but I just moved from Bozeman a little over a month ago. And earlier this year the local newspaper had an article talking about how bear spray was better than guns. Also, I know guns still get the job done, but the bear spray is better. Here's an excerpt from Field & Stream's May issue. (They also have the article about the woman shooting the wolf while bow hunting in Idaho.)
"Preventing an attack means paying bears deserved respect and being grizzly-bear aware regardless of the season. But when avoidance isn't possible, do not assume a rifle will keep you safe. In analyzing hundreds of grizzly attacks, bear expert Steve Smith, who contributed to Herrero's report, found that pepper spray deterred a charge in more than 90 percent of the cases. Bullets did the job just 66 percent of the time, and it took an average of four shots to stop the bear. A U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service study also revealed that hunters who wounded bears with bullets suffered more serious injuries than people who used capsicum. For both species, spray a one-second burst when a bear closes to 40 feet. At 15 feet, spray a second burst. If the animal continues to charge, empty the contents directly into its face."
You might be able to call up the fish and game and get some of the actual data from them or the stuff that was used in the newspaper article.
I always laugh when people talk about "odds" what are the odds of winning lotteries, getting struck by lightning, etc. It doesn't matter what the odds are it happens every year to a few people and it only takes once. Cat's are the most concerning although there are more bear attacks, but what people forget is a Grizz will normally only carry out an attack until it feels your not a threat, most predation cases are black bears which is why you don't play dead with a blackie. Wolves will attack, I know of the woman bowhunter in ID that recently had to kill a charging wolf and I know it's happened in AK. They say there is no way to truly know how many wolf attacks there are because they generally don't find the victims and there are no witness's because of locations most of these attacks occur in. My father in law had a run in with a pack of aggressive coyotes and I've had a run in with a black bear and a couple with cat's and in the case of one of the cats a gun saved my life. It's a free country and you can choose to do what you will but don't talk about odds. Air travel is the safest form of transportation in the world but that is little comfort to the thousands that have died in air crashes.
I usually don't respond to these threads as they don't seem to go anywhere, but I think I can add something to this from experience and maybe help Wissler make a decision (nice buck in your profile pic btw !).
I've killed a few black bears with a handgun and a number of wolves with different firearms but none of either were charging. A wolf takes some killing for its size but of course they're really not that big and if it works well on a whitetail it should work well on a wolf.
I've only had one wolf follow me close that I know of and it just seemed curious, it got as close as 30' ghosting me. I was armed and didn't feel threatened in the least, in fact when it got tired of watching/following me I started following it just to watch it for longer. It was late spring, season was closed, or it would have been a dead wolf. I don't even consider wolves when I head out the door, but as previously stated, a schoolteacher was run down, killed, and partly consumed about 150 miles or so from here, just 3 years ago. But nobody seems to remember when it ever happened before, either.
The whole charging bear thing. About every year I take and sometimes help teach a bear safety class as part of what I do for a living, the class was also mentioned previously. Yup, buckshot is considered unreliable for bears, and personally I always thought buckshot was for coyotes and people that couldn't shoot lol. But for wolves, it has sometimes been used for the aerial shooting that has occurred and it is effective at close range.
My only experience with pepper spray is firing off the test ones that only have water in them. One reason I don't like it is you can't take it on planes of any kind as there is a danger of it discharging so that limits things but mostly I'm probably just old school in my attitude towards it.
And if it was me in your situation, I'd just carry my bow because I like to do that and don't forget it is a very effective weapon. And enjoy the wolf howls 'cause that's pretty neat stuff.
I've got a question I've been wondering about while reading all these responses. What happens with the bear spray when the wind is blowing from the bear to you? Seems to me that situation could happen as that way the bear hasn't winded you if you surprised it at close range and it did not know what you were.
I like to have my .44 in the tent at night. Not worried about hitting what I can reach out and touch. I am not very worried about any of them during the day when I can see.
ChuckC
I spend most of my time in grizzly country and pack both a .41 mag and bear spray. If things get western I will definately go down shooting. I was in an instructor in oleoresin capsicum (oc spray) and tour the same factory where bear spray was manufactured. I can vouch for the spray working HOWEVER the biggest down fall is the wind, which we always hunt into causing the spray to basically go in your face. Most encounters we have are due to the fact we startled the bear because we are slinking thru timber with wind in our face. The real close wolf encounters I've had, or friends have had, usually involve having a dog at camp and the wolves will lurk around our campsite about 100 yards. In short if you have both pack both. My spray is zip tied to my backpack and goes in my cargo pocket if I dump my pack. Good luck
ps. just got back from bighorn sheep hunting and saw 3 grizz and a black first day. Had a griz come thru camp and lost my 4 horses and a mule--thank god I caught them later:)
Wissler, I think a few others made this point already, but to answer your original question, "bear spray or borrowed .44" for black bears and wolves....
bear spray all the way. I would never count on my skill with a borrowed gun, especially a cannon like a .44. I've shot a few of those at targets that weren't trying to eat me and I did more damage to my hand than the target.
I run the risk of getting this pulled. But it's intention is to bring to light that it does and can happen. This is less than 5 miles from my house. Yes a whole lot of luck played into this. Our very own Greg Brush of Easy Limit Charters, G.Loomis pro Staffer.
This situation was similar to that of Timothy Treadwell in Katmai. An old bear, no teeth, mouth full of abcesses and just mean and hungry.
(http://i632.photobucket.com/albums/uu47/chromebuck/Brush_bear.jpg)
King salmon season is over, and since I had a day off before silvers start, I thought I would go for a walk! This occurred at 11:16 am this morning (Sunday), just 2/10 of a mile from my house, ON OUR ROAD while walking
my dogs (trying to get in shape for hunting season, ironically!) For the record, this is in a residential area - not back in the woods, no bow hunting, no stealth occurring...
I heard a twig snap, and looked back...full on charge - a huge brownie, ears back, head low and motorin' full speed! Came with zero warning; no Woof, no popping of the teeth, no standing up, nothing like what you think or see on TV! It charged from less than 20 yards and was on me in About one-second! Totally surreal - I just started shooting in the general direction, and praise God that my second shot (or was it my third?) rolled him at 5 feet and he skidded to a stop 10 feet BEYOND where I was shooting from. I actually sidestepped him and fell over backwards on the last shot, and his momentum carried him to a stop past where I fired my first shot!
It was a prehistoric old bear - no teeth, no fat-weighed between 900-1000 lbs and took five men to DRAG it onto a tilt-bed trailer! Big bear - its paw measured out at about a 9 1/2 footer!
Never-ever-thought "it" would happen to me! It's always some other smuck, right? Well, no bull- I am still high on adrenaline, with my gut in a Knot. Feels like I did 10000 crunches without stopping! Almost puked for an hour after, had the burps and couldn't even stand up as the troopers conducted their investigation! Totally wiped me out - can't even put that feeling into words, by far the most emotion I have ever felt at once!
No doubt that God was with me, as I brought my Ruger .454 Casull (and some "hot" 350 grain solids) just for the heck of it, and managed to Draw and snap shoot (pointed, never even aimed!) from the hip! Total luck shot!
All I can say is Praise God for my safety and for choosing to leave the wife and kids at home on this walk! Got a charter tomorrow, so gonna TRY to get some sleep now!
Talk to ya soon, -Greg
Vernon sounds like a man of Good Judgement, and in his choice of sidearms too. :)
In the communist state where I live it is illegal to carry a hand gun while hunting and it is illegal to possess any pepper spray larger than 3/4 ounces.
Our state wants us to be bear food!
I carry Bear spray when I am in Yellowstone taking pictures. If in my home state of California and it's legal I carry 1911 or 44 Mag not because of Lions or Bears it is because of the Meth heads and Pot growers. The only thing in the woods the makes me nerviest are those two.
A properly aimed .22lr is better than a total whif from a .500 Linebaugh. Spray is great, carried it for years as an MP and cop. But cops don't only carry OC for a reason. Carry the biggest handgun you can shoot accurately. .357, .41, or 44 will all take down a black bear or wolf.
My personal preference is the .41rem mag. It has near same power as the .44 and a little more recoil than the .357. Stiff loads from Grizzly Cartridge Co. will actually surpass nearly all .44 mag loads.
265gr hard cast lead, mv 1400fps and me or 1153f/lbs. Little in North America that won't stop, including a brown bear.