Trad Gang

Can I hear some thoughts on this topic ?  I know, I know...scary sharp.  But really.  A lot can be said for "razor blade, or shaving" sharpness being superior, but as much can be said regarding durability of a "not quite as sharp....but still sharp" blade.  

Remeber, you are taking this blade and making it pass thru meat at a speed in excess of 150 feet per second, which is way different than lightly cutting thru a rubberband or some hair on the back of your hand.    Maybe we can add in discussion about hone sharpened, vs file sharpened  vs serrated blades.  Anyone up to proposing some tests that the Gang can perform ?  

It is almost season....timely discussions I think.
ChuckC

Chuck, Doctors and vets have spoken out loud and clear that razor/shaving sharp is the way to go and after 40 years of bowhunting I agree. Oh sure you'll some chine in about serrated, file.... ect when the fact is you can kill them with a field tip........Eventually...So examples of them working doesn't mean much. Besides you can get a filed edge to shave....O.L.

To me, it sure seems like there is no such thing as too sharp.  Some are better at it than I am, but I try hard to get them as sharp as possible using first a file and then diamond stone.  

I just compare it to cutting myself accidentally - the sharper the instrument I cut myself with, the longer and more profusely I bleed.  Trust me, I've done this more than once!    
We could even ask Vance and Norbert for a couple of more professional opinions   :p

Yup, what Whip and OL said, a seratted cut closes quicker and stops bleeding due to the jagged edge having anther jagged edge to attach to, razor sharp will do! Shawn

Sharpening any and every thing that needs it, is a art. Unfortunatly no scientific way to judge for us laymen. Other than the usual old timer tests. Cuts paper like a razor, and a few others. Just do your very best at getting em like a razor! I'll pass on serrated blades thanks.JMO


I'm thinking my buddy Vance has the most experiance. At leaving his own blood trails, with no shots fired!    :D  
I love ya though.

                 Brent

The sharper the better, though I left a good blood trail myself with no broadhead involved. LOL

There was a good thread on this last year ...
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=038278;p=1

My personal test is when a knife or broadhead will remove hair from my arm effortlesly. I start out on a wet stone(knives), medium, to fine, to extra fine, if you want a scary sharp edge, after you have the edge where you think you want it take it to a buffing wheel with some buffing compound.(stainless only).I will bet it is the sharpest you ever got stainless. On broadheads I use the angled diamond  setup,  something I tried this year is to drag the broadhead on a 4000 grit water stone, works better than a strop it takes the bur off and polishes the edge slightly. They will take hair off your arm without feeling it, you could almost shave with them. As far as what type of edge is better I think that a smooth sharp is better because a jagged edge may load with fat and other tissue........Only my take on the whole thing.


Thanks for listening me rant
(and I hate the use of "harvest" unles it's your tomatoes I kill deer etc...)

Mike

But will a razor edge stand up to hitting or passing thru bone and ribs ?  or hair ?  How about the dulling factors like being unused in a quiver, or humidity causing oxidation ? Will it still be razor sharp after it goes thru the first side of the deer ?
ChuckC

Maybe not But we no for sure that it wont be.If it wasnt razor sharp before it hit.

I believe in truly razor sharp broadheads for 3 very important reasons.
1) The first thing the broadhead needs to cut is hair. It takes a razor edge to cut hair.
2)A razor sharp broadhead makes an incision not a laceration. Incisions bleed more freely and longer before the autonomic systems of an animal engage. Arrows kill by means of extanguination. The freer and longer the blood flows the fast extanguination is reached.
3)The intial impact of the broadhead with the exterior tissue of the animal begins to dull the head. The sharper it is going in the sharper it will be going out.

Well, maybe.  Does a broadhead have to cut the hair ?  Can't it just part the hair ?  Scissors cut hair but are not so sharp.  An axe will cut hair under the right conditions and they aren't so sharp.  A piece of paper is not so sharp but we have all suffered paper cuts if the piece is moved just right at any good speed.

If the animal is hit in the chest, the odds are great that the animal will expire long before any form of clotting or vasoconstriction takes place.  "Exsanguination" will then happen even if the broadhead is not super sharp, but merely "pretty sharp".  

There is certainly a lot of reason to make your broadheads as sharp as we can, a lot of reasons, but especially because we are trying to do the very best job we can.

I wanted to bring up this discussion because each year there are numerous questions about broadhead sharpness, and better ways to sharpen broadheads.  

Sharpening broadheads to the point of easily shaving hair is not everybodies forte.  Some find it easy while others will never achieve it. I just question whether a broadhead that is not quite shaving sharp, shot thru any critter at arrow speed, will have any difficulty cutting everything in its path.
ChuckC

I do not know everything about broadheads and all that, not by any stretch of the imagination... But I agree with what C2@TheLibrary said in point # 3. If the edge is not sharp enough to cut the hide on the way in, it will never cut the hide on the way out (even if it does not encounter bones). Make sure your blades are **surgically sharp**, or at least as close to it as you can get them, before you even think about going out in the field -- and always sharpen them before using them again. As for serrated edges...

The real selling point of serrated edges is that they do not need to be sharpened **as often** as straight edges; as those little points wear down, though, they do become duller and they will not cut as efficiently as a straight, smooth, sharp edge. Serrated edges are best for when a smooth, clean cut is not of prime importance -- such as when you are cutting your cooked steak during dinner.

If your broadhead has suffecient hardnes it should hold up upon impact. The last deer I shot, I found my arrow broken in two, the broadhead would still shave hair. It broke a rib on the way in and no ribs on the way out. I saw the deer expire within 30 yards. I went to the house to get my kids 9 and 7 to blood trail it. A blind man could have found it. I am a firm believer in razor sharp heads, and everybody should strive to get that kind of edge. I wasn't able to get that sharpnes right away I had to practice, alot. Nobody is good right away they have to practice.(musical instruments, sports etc).

So practice alot, sharpen knives for your friends,(thats how I got practice)and soon you will be known as one sharp mutha.

Good luck

Mike

O.L. and Whip pretty much covered it. This question has been around forever, and there are good arguments on both sides.I figure that a good knapped head (which was the first broadhead btw) is way sharper than anyone can get a metal BH so far. So get em as sharp as you can and go huntin.

Just to keep it interesting though, if you look at any edge under a(powerful enough) stereoscope there are gonna be some micro serrations. So maybe were all talkin about the same thing here to some degree.

Just from an ethical stand I say if you arent capable of getting a razor sharp edge then buy new ones or get someone to do it for you.  Would you take a shot at a deer knowing that you had only a marginal chance of mortally wounding it?? I didnt think so, why would anyone consider using a marginally sharpened broadhead to do the job?

Nockhunter I couldnt agree with you more, Ive never actually "harvested" a wild game animal or been particularly adept at political correctness.

O.L. said it for me.  Nothing to add.  I am going to try the new Stinger buzzcuts this year though.  Even so, I'll be honing them to a fine razor edge.

David

My "test" is very simple.  I hold the arrow on the floor...between my knees.  With the broadhead facing up, I then slightly strech a rubber band.  If the rubber band is cut and breaks instantly upon broadhead contact...it's good to go. If I have to run the rubber band down the broadhead to get it to cut...it needs some more strokes with the Accusharp.

The rubber band is about the same consistency as an artery.

Kills and bloodtrails not an issue with a 2 bladed Stinger.

I know a lot of people don't like the cost of the silverflames but these heads really hold their edge even after hitting bone, etc.  Expensive but great heads.  I used to think they are too expensive to use on deer around here but would use them on out of state hunts because of the time and money invested in those hunts.  But these heads are so good and, unless I lose one, will hold up regardless of what I'm hunting.  That said I still love my Simmons heads shaving sharp!!

Joe

If anyone is interested in learning how to get any blade "shaving sharp", here is a book I found in a second-hand store:

"The Razor Edge Book of Sharpening", by John Juranitch. Imagine being able to take a completely dull (that's a rounded-edged, absolutely-no-way-it's-gonna-cut) axe to "shaving sharp", with only a file and a stone....and if an 11 year-old girl can get a skinning knife sharp enough to shave with, so can you! This book even has a section on sharpening broadheads.

This is not an advertisement for the book, just an honest opinion of its worth to the bowhunter and outdoorsman, and anyone who appreciates having a sharp knife for cooking.

The biggest problem is the test. Shaving with a razor that has been shrpend at a 30 or 25 degree angle is not nearly as easy and smooth as one that is shrpened at a 17 degree angle or less. Also no two people have the exact same type of hair on there arm. You just have to keep striveing to improve your technic just like we do on the practice range everyday.

All I've read refers to testing the effectiveness of an edge in a static model...try it at 160 feet per second and the difference between sharp and razor shape is moot.   :)

Yes, it should shave hair effortlessly....but you don't want it so sharp that the edge will 'roll' on a rib.  You want a durable angle, so the edge will be sharp after passing through even if it contacts bone. If its sharp after a pass through, you know everything that could have been cut was.

what angle degree do you guys use?  i put a 25 degree angle on mine and they get shaving sharp & they are durable.

QuoteOriginally posted by beaglesandbucks:
My "test" is very simple.  I hold the arrow on the floor...between my knees.  With the broadhead facing up, I then slightly strech a rubber band.  If the rubber band is cut and breaks instantly upon broadhead contact...it's good to go. If I have to run the rubber band down the broadhead to get it to cut...it needs some more strokes with the Accusharp.

The rubber band is about the same consistency as an artery.

Kills and bloodtrails not an issue with a 2 bladed Stinger.

This is exactly the test i use too....You can have a blade that will cut hair off your arm with a couple strokes that wont cut a rubber band. the power will punch through the hide and break bones even....but how many veins and artery's are cut cleanly is what gives you a blood trail.....getting a hole in the lower portion of the body cavity helps tremendously too....i've seen many text book double lung,broad side shots in the mid-body on animals that ran up hill without leaving a trace of blood besides the initial contact....

FACT: If you get a hole in the bottom.....they leak more....my .02 worth ....Kik

My test include inspecting the damage done to the animal and then how well the broadhead survived.

I believe people worry too much about ribs. You need something that will get thru the hide on the onside and continue in a straight line. Lung tissue offers almost no resistance. Yu can thnk of it as air filled plastic bags. Try this on the next deer you shoot, grab one of the lungs in your hand and squeeze it. You'll see that pretty much anything is going to make it thru to th off side after you get past the rib.

While the bradhead may or may not dull the point is going to permit it to travel far enough to get the job done. The dulling effect, when it happens, still leave you with something as sharp as the blades are from the folks recommending more angle and thicker edges. Metal hardness is going to make more of a difference in the broadheads success.

Razor sharp is the way to go in my book, however, the profile or shape of the tip is going to aid penetration more than how sharp the edge is on a broadside lung hit, as will how many blades it has and their angle.

The 3 to 1 design works because it easily pokes thru and gradually cuts the hide on the way in so the risistance to the arrow is small taking away very little energy from the arrow. Rounded tips and short wide blades require a lot of energy.

The cut on impact is best as long as the tip isn't to narrow and soft. That is where the tanto shines. The double tanto quicky opens a hole in the hide and then you have the long narrowed angle of the blades to cut. Small amounts of hide and or flesh are cut per part of the blade that travels thru. With short fat blade designs you're poking more than cutting.

Heck, go buy a roast and try pushing some broadhead thru it. That will give you worse case test fo all but major bone hits. One a mojor bone hit the harder the metal, smaller the tip, and narrower the blade the better you chance for success, as long as the tip doesn't curl you're good to go.

That's my thoughts anyhow.  :)

I shot a file sharpened 160gr Snuffer through both shield plates of a 340# feral hog at 10yards with a thick Superceder wood arrow. I shot 280# boar through both  shield plates with a 125 gr. German Sliver Flame broadhead polished razor sharp on my leather strop. Both cases I had a dead hog.  :rolleyes:

Too sharp. Nothing of that is, in existence. Hone your skils sharpening as you would anything else you consider worthwhile.

Again...the point of bringing this up was to create discussion.  Lots of folks really want to know.  

Again....I think you should try to get as good as you can, so your heads are good and sharp.  But...we are not doing surgery here, we are killing an animal by pushing a sharp object thru them at a relatively good speed....150 - 200 fps, which is not the same as just slowly cutting something or slicing hair off your arm.

What changed my own mind ?    Nearly slicing my own finger half off with my own...not so very sharp ..pocket knife.  I got in the way of a knife that was in in rapid motion.  You should have seen the little arteries pumping.  Both the nurse and I were amazed.  

Sharp.  definately.  Sharp as you can get em....  (need to be)Shaving sharp ?...I am not so convinced any more.
Chuck

As long as I can get it sharper, I keep sharpening.  When I get to the point where I can't get it any sharper, I quit.

I would disagree that they don't have to be shaving sharp.  Because of the elasticity of an animals skin, a dull broadhead can make an entrance or exit hole much smaller than its cutting width.

An injury to a human finger is a poor analogy. Unless you severed completely through the bone. For a broadhead to do it's job, it needs to pass through hair, hide and ribs while remaining sharp enough to do the job in the lungs/heart/liver/arteries/veins of the animal. Sharp and durable edges are important and making excuses to hunt with blades less than the sharpest you can possibly get them and not developing the skills to make them that way is a dishonor to the animals we hunt. IMO

mine are real   :scared:   sharp  cause i had a broadhead stick in my leg and i did not feel a thing but ya could trail me all the way inside and back out again to the car. 2 blade ziwicky does the biz when needed. real easy to sharpen. as long as ya can go through hair skin and bone. i just missed the bone in my case by 1/16th of an inch.   :biglaugh:  but you get my drift

Sharpen broadhead.....breathe on it and listen.....if you don't hear anything.....sharpen more, breathe, and listen.....when you hear the germs screamin you're done!  :smileystooges:

Dave..  (Vermontster) .  I don't agree.  The point was not that it went (or did not) thru bone, it cut the meat, the skin, the arteries and everything else that got in its way, which is why we are sharpening the blades in the first place.   Actually, the analogy was better by far than shaving your hair.  It actually cut what we are trying to cut.  It worked.  That is the point I am trying to make..the addition of speed greatly enhances the cutting power of a simple blade...and also, greatly enhances the chances of causing damage to an otherwise sharp blade.

EDITED...
You did...however...hit on exactly the point of this topic.   Just what IS  sharp enough.  Just how sharp   IS   as sharp as you can get them.  Just how sharp  IS  sharp enough ?   and how do we know we achieved that.
ChuckC

Chuck...I work in the lumber business.  I've seen some deep and nasty cuts from steel banding material, plastic bands, laminates(formica), and other edges that were not particularly sharp.  If you apply enough resistance, and yes...speed, many surfaces will produce a cut.  IMO a broadhead needs to be razor sharp so that it cuts with almost no pressure.  If this is not the case, (some) of the skin, muscle, arteries, tissue, etc. will simply be moved out of the way as the blade passes through.  It will cut, but it will not do the amount of damage or open holes like a razor sharp blade will open.  I do agree that you can have too shallow an angle on the edge which might be rolled by a bone.

A broadhead needs to pass through ribs to get where it needs to go. A soft tissue injury on a finger is not a good comparison. That's my thought and everyone is allowed their own. Part of what makes these threads a learning experience.

Do you think that stone (flint, obsidian, glass) points are sharp enough ?  I have yet to see one that shaves hair.  You can most certainly produce a flake of obsidian that will do that,and more,  but I am guessing that it would have a bit of trouble holding up on impact.  

Many people consider stone heads to be very adequate for hunting deer.  
ChuckC

Obsidian blades are sharper than any steel blade made. They are used in very precise surgeries.

It just seems to me as of late that what is the least I can use/do and still have a hope of being successful is becoming more and more of a theme as of late in the Traditional Forums.

Well then..there you go.  We should all be using 125 pound bows,  except those that "make do" with 75.  

The folks here are asking these questions because they want to know, and as of yet...don't.  In my state 30 pounds is legal bow weight for a deer.  Is that enough ?  The state thinks so.  Under certain conditions so do I.  Under other conditions...heck no.

Obsidian blades are sharp...you bet, but that same blade would shatter on impact if it hit a deer at 150 fps, much less any bone.  Same holds true for a "razor" sharp broadhead of soft metal and using a 12 degree taper to acheive that razor edge.  Sure it will shave your arm, and crumple on impact.

The point I am trying to make is that there is no hard fast rules here...and it is impossible to make up some strict guidelines such as "scary sharp".   If a 700 grain arrow goes right thru a deer,   and a 500 grain arrow does the same, then am I a bad person cause I want to use a 500 grain arrow ?  If my broadhead goes thru a deer and cuts everything it touches...and it will... does it matter if yours is "sharper".  At some point, sharp is sharp enough.  heavy is heavy enough.  fast is fast enough.  More is great, but like the old adage states... "enough is enough".

To say that I am less of a person, and don't "respect" the game if I don't shave with my broadheads, or shoot 125  pound bows, or smoke the same cigarettes as the next person is a little out there.  

There are folks out here, such as yourself, that are well versed in how to do this game.  And others, at least from the questions being asked and the posts being made, are not so well versed.  

How many postings have you seen just recently professing that "this is my first year, or second year"  or I hope to get my first trad game animal this year ?  Enough.....  Let's give them guidance, not shame them.  That is what this site is about.    That is why I am delighted, and proud to be able to share in these conversations.
ChuckC

No one is saying you are less of a person here Chuck but you. And I'm sorry but Obsidian heads going over 150 still zip through deer and other game. No one is saying to use 125# bows or any of the other stuff. I am just saying folks should be striving to improve not just get by. You decide for yourself as each of us does what that entails and what you are happy with. You put a question out and then argue over the answers you get. As far as first or second years, seems to me what you learn at the beginning is what stays with you for the long haul in many cases. No one trying to shame anyone, but if you're not ready to go in the field with the equipment yet, the only shame is not admitting it(how many first or second year folks come back during season with the I wounded one but couldn't find them threads each year?).

Dude..you are totally missing the point....pun intended.  and I am not less than anyone here.

Everyone here wants to improve..that is why they are asking questions.  At some point is a starting line.  If the guys wife needs to start at 30 pounds, then 30 is a starting line.  Is it enough ?  That is his question.  Nothing in there reflects that he /she has no desire nor any capacity to get better, only the question....is it enough ?   Is my broadhead sharp enough to hunt with ? Is there some way to judge this ?  Sure...we should work on that and get better, but there is a starting line in there too.  

Yes, I am arguing.  There are more answers than one.

ChuckC

Hi Verm13!  You said:

"Sharp and durable edges are important and making excuses to hunt with blades less than the sharpest you can possibly get them and not developing the skills to make them that way is a dishonor to the animals we hunt. IMO"

Which, in my respectful opinion, is contradicting this statement by you:

"No one is saying you are less of a person here Chuck but you....I am just saying folks should be striving to improve not just get by."

I tend to agree with the point I understand Chuck is attempting to make.  We all have our differences in what sharp is,  what sharp enough is, what sharp enough was (after passthrough) etc. etc. etc.  He doesn't seem to be advocating laziness or slopiness and non-caring attitude about a clean and quick kill.  He seems to be suggesting that possibly we don't have to get them as sharp as some folks indicate or suggest in order to have overwhelming success.

Sometimes our zeal for how we personally view the standard (as in this case broadhead sharpness) puts others in bondage (a bogus bondage).  I've been blessed with more than enough deer kills with trad stuff under my belt (more than most here no doubt) to keep my broadheads as sharp as I want them, which isn't as sharp or even as durable as I could get them.  My average distance for recovery is right around 40 yards.

I'd advocate giving people a little more freedom in this area of how sharp a head should be.  After all, some say we should do everything possible to recover wounded game.  Some look in earnest for three hours, some for eight, some for twenty.  Perhaps some have rented a helicopter with infrared equipment to aid in recovery. Who's efforts ought to be the standard to judge everyone else's?

The point I'm gently making is let's give folks a little more liberty and freedom in areas like this without insinuating (directly or indirectly) that they are somehow being irresponsible or lacking in respect for an animal's life.

I agree with one statement...enough is enough.    :D