Trad Gang

I'd like to share my experience and my trail through the woods in search of a bow that would solve some long-standing issues...if it were possible.  

As my investigations unfolded, I began a "Search for Bigfoot".  Perhaps you'd like to join my journey?

Before I start, let me say that I have heard many great things about many, many bowyers on this site and elsewhere.  I'm sure there are other bowyers who could have done a great job addressing my grip problem, but I only had so much money and at my age, so much time.  Life the past 2 years, visiting my father in a nursing home daily, driving 2 hrs to and from work...left me a bit wore out.    

Yes, I have a grip issue with standard risers--90% of the bowyers I talked to over the years felt they could 'fix the problem!" but I've been burned a few times so I decided to give it one more try.

Friends recommended 2 bowyers:  I contacted Kirk and one other bowyer by email.  Both got back to me. I talked to one who recommended I try his customer's bow who lived in my region. I did. Not even close.  :(   Words can be so fragile when it comes to explaining something so complex as a bow grip or challenges to same.

Kirk responded by email. A few exchanges later, after reviewing my perceived issue with grips, Kirk provided me with a list of things that he would need from me to figure out if he could build a custom bow that would resolve my grip issues.  He wanted "data" to determine if it was a grip design problem, or if there were flaws in my form or execution that no bow grip would fix.

I'm a data driven guy and Kirk asking for "data" to review, well, that fit my personality!

There is a "cost" associated with him diagnosing and custom building a grip to fit, but Kirk appeared very thorough in what he asked. I learned from others that he pulls few punches and if it was not a bow grip problem, I sensed he'd not waste my money or his time!  I liked that!

Kirk gave me an outline of what he would need.  He wanted videos and still pictures from a bunch of angles and viewpoints plus hand tracings.
 
We struck a deal.  He invested heavily in time and reviewed everything--- and provided feedback to me that he identified a body mechanic issue with how I rotate my wrist and that he felt he could remedy my issue.   And the safarri began...

Next: The build choices....

wow..this gonna be awesome  I agree that Kirk is a thinker and very meticulas on how he does thingd..you can tell by his post and video's

Mumm's the word....but Kirk did an absolutely first rate job for his customer.  Now....let the story unfold Doc.

:campfire:

This ought to be good!!

The Build choices

I had to make some very difficult "choices".  Choices abound on his website, but funds were limited.  His "Riser Design" web page shows a one piece and his 3- piece bows in 3 different configurations.
http://www.bigfootbows.com

There is also another "page" for Upgrades listing costs on special features, overlays, and a myriad of "add-on's".  I did my homework on his site. I studied the options closely. I made a list of choices and figured my budget. Next step was to ask Kirk questions.

I carefully wrote out my questions:  Which t/d 3 piece riser configuration is most forgiving? Which produces the best performance, etc.  During my "waiting period" Kirk systematically answered my questions in turn.  He took time to "explain" the "why" on some things in ways even I could understand.  I learned a lot. I not only was choosing MY bow's custom configuration, but I found I was also building a relationship.  

I'll pick up here Sunday...off to a shoot.

Where ya goin', Doc?
Killdeer

Doc, I'm just hangin here, GEEZ

Seriously, I recently had Kirk build a bigfoot for me including a custom grip from a grip and riser I sent him, along with hand pics and tracings, Kirk did suggest a slight modification and it worked out wonderfully. Traded numerous emails and Kirk was always very helpful, knowledgeable and easy to converse with. Had an excellent experience and by the way, Loving my bigfoot sasquatch td. Thinking about my second.

QuoteOriginally posted by Doc Nock:



I'll pick up here Sunday...off to a shoot.

Now thats just plain mean.

Is there such a thing as a "story foul"?

Sorry guys...   :notworthy:  

Killy,
Big Jim Hurt (Chris Hurt, the trick shooter's Dad) has a PLA shoot down near the MD line in S. York Co at his local club this weekend. I got some job search chores today, and need to run there either tomorrow or Sun to the shoot... Bow was mailed priority Thurs AM from OR and might be here Sat... so I'm really torn about going tomorrow to shoot. Didn't get a trackin # so that won't be an option.

Kirk is on a short holiday to celebrate his Wedding Anniversary and I want him to be around to clarify anything I say that needs illumination and to help w/ pics.

Here's a "preview" to hold ya all till I get back on line

These will show up--- as this unfolds...  :)

...gotta scoot!


(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Snakefight.jpg)

I've ordered a few custom bows throughout the years, but I have never dealt with a bowyer as thorough as Kirk.

I am also a STICKLER on grips. A few bowyers have gotten close to making a grip to my satisfaction, but Kirk nailed it dead on.

If you're able to supply Kirk with the information he asks for, you'll wind up with a truly CUSTOM bow that SUITS/FITS you.....no one else may like it, but it will be EXACTLY what you ask for.

I was fortuntate enough to hunt with Kirk earlier this year. I think 5 of us were already shooting Big Foot bows, plus Kirk brought along several more bows for folks to try out. I knew that Kirk had built my grip like I wanted, but it really opened my eyes to what Kirk was doing in terms of building grips to suit different guys. On that trip, I was able to shoot 8 or 9 of Kirks bows, each one with a different grip....some I could have gotten along with, and some I didn't care for at all. The others guys loved their grips as much as I did mine. My grip was totally different than any bow there, but it's the perfect grip for me.

I think you're going to be impressed with your Big Foot Doc.....Kirk has taken the word CUSTOM to a new level.

I know everyone drools over bocote veneers, but I like the looks of what is going into the middle of that oreo!!! Without all the little pin knots I bet a bunch of folks won't even recognize it.
Thom

Doc, mine took 3 days from Kirk to SC.

Very attractive wood, drool drool. Love bocote.

Which bigfoot are you getting?

Doc, I've always enjoyed your posts and think of you as a good guy, but I believe you have violated some posting ethics by stringing us out.   :readit:   Hope you get to pick up your bow tomorrow.

Hey...CRash, et al,

Well, I'm finally back at the computer "briefly."

I'm not "violating anything"... I'm just a student of Charles Lamb!  :)

Seriously... we'll see what tomorrow brings.

Katman, thanks...now I for sure lost Saturday to being here!  :)   Thurs-Fri-Sat... I'll be rattlin around here like a pea in a boxcar hopin and waitin.

I can say that what is on it's way is a 60", 47# Sasquatch LB.  

Billy Ship,
I know that Kirk will be flattered to read your kind words...but indeed...custom is as custom does.

Never understood how "custom" got aligned with the ala carte chinese take out menu for ordering up just "wood combos". Indeed, Kirk offers a truly "custom" experience...

Where's Kirk w/ pictures when I need him!? Oh, yeah...celebrating his anniversary with his lovely bride of many years! Yeah!  :)

Thom, whatchatalking bout Willis? Pin knots? What you think that is bro? PM me...!  :)

Thanks for the PM Dave, do I get a second guess?    :biglaugh:  

Cant' believe I'll be gone for all the excitement coming up!
Thom

NOpe...Thom...ain't Yew...or hew or U...

This will be fun.

Good luck hunting NE...geeze, I think I'm torn tween my new bow and wishing I was going with YOU!

 :bigsmyl:

All I know is, next to Kirk and Doc I'll be the first person to see it, touch it, and maybe even shoot it before y'all!  Heh,heh!


Lee

Now Doc ol buddy, you are tormenting all these fine folks on here. Including me!!!!

So you have my permission to continue...........forget sleep, it's overrated.   :bigsmyl:

Well this is off to good start Doc.   :thumbsup:

I made it back from the coast this evening, and it's late... but i suppose i could at least give the guys you are teasing here a couple more pics, and tell them about the snake fight....

This purdy red wood we are using for an I-beam in this bow riser is actually called Waterfall Bubinga. This particular batch i purchased,looked like a snake fight to me, so i told Dave i call it "snake fight bubinga" or "Bubba Snake fight"....

So here's a shot of the rough riser laid up with some matching veneers.

(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Doc%20Noc%20Sas/SANY0011.jpg)


I promised Dave I'd help him out with some more photos and do some explanations on some of this stuff as we go through the build.... We had a lot of fun building this one together...

Here's a couple more of our next step putting  the overlays on her....

I gotta get some Zzzzzz's.... More tomorrow... Kirk

(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Doc%20Noc%20Sas/SANY0014.jpg)


(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Doc%20Noc%20Sas/SANY0016.jpg)


Kirk

Will keep watching this post, very educational.  

Kirk,  the photos showing the parts of your shop in the background are always interesting.  Maybe you could do a shop pictorial one day.

Doc, We need to put that bow in action this fall!!

He's baaaack!    :)  

Got a note this AM that Kirk and Kat got back at some very late (early?) hour and had a grand anniversary trip.

Ed,
It would be an honor to bloody that bad boy with you.

********************

Thing about Kirk--- he doesn't just build a pretty bow (all I've seen were gorgeous!) but he builds a fully functional bow and each of his design feature has been thoroughly tested and -- re-tested.  I paid my deposit and held my "spot".   He shared high speed clips of his limb designs in action-- he is passionate about bow design, limb function: vertical limb stability, lateral limb stability, and resulting performance.  He wants to exceed his and the customer's expectations.  He has researched deeply into different types of carbon and has settled on his "matrix" design that he's tested, reviewed, tested under high speed videography and settled on a formula that offers high performance while maintaining vertical and lateral stability!  I'd watched a few of Kirk's video build series in the past and I'd been in a few bowyer's shops to see processes unfold, so it is not all alien.  

Kirk took time to share parts of the build process with me so I could see "my bow" come alive in his hands.

Those pics above were neat to see cause I could roughly understand them... I understood, well enough for my purposes, his explanation of vertical limb stability and horizontal stability and how it improves performance, but Kirk would have to step in to do that topic justice... understanding doesn't mean I can describe it accurately.

I wonder how many others invest in high speed video equipment, editing software and then blow up thousands of dollars of limbs & materials, while being photographed with high speed equipment, to see, if, where and how they fail? And then start over to fix it all till it is perfecto??

Been waiting a while to read this one buddy....

 :campfire:

I'm stuck at home today...deeply immersed in varied chores awaiting the possibility of a knock on my door from the postman or postmam.

Some suckers told me that if it shipped OR on Thursday AM, could be here today!    :eek:  

Ain't no way I'm getting further from my door than the neighbor's!  :)

I did have one other picture to share real quick.

Seems that Kirk has taken on an assistant or understudy or underfoot or whatever...

I'm sure that under this diligent watchful eye, my bow turned out superior!
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Big%20foot/SANY0007.jpg)

What a beautiful spaniel!
Does it come with the bow?
Killdeer

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/Killdeer/884F3F0C-3BE9-45B7-AF41-0C67AD6A8A90-3970-000006C1BB28307E.jpg)

Wonder if his name is "Rufus"?

I keep searching old files...I think her name is Gracie, but I can't be sure... Kirk will be by when he's got time and share I'm sure!

Great dog and I've heard stories of her antics and she appears to be quite the companion...

But nope... I'm pretty sure Kirk would give up a hand before that pup...

Ok.... i got some Zzzzz's....  Here's  few photos showing the rest of the riser lay up and hardware installation.

After getting the the overlays on the back, it' time to cutout the shape and do the belly ramp caps.

(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Doc%20Noc%20Sas/SANY0021.jpg)

(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Doc%20Noc%20Sas/SANY0022.jpg)

(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Doc%20Noc%20Sas/SANY0023.jpg)

(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Doc%20Noc%20Sas/SANY0025.jpg)

All these different lay ups take time to cure before going to the next step, but here's a peek at what all these little pieces look like when you are done.

(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Doc%20Noc%20Sas/SANY0018.jpg)

Lots of nice wood, but here is where skill comes in.
Killdeer

One more little shot here and i gotta get back to work....

After the overlay process is completed we need to get some hardware installed to bolt the limbs on.

First thing i do is get the riser clamped in to the vise on my mill using a smart level.

(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Doc%20Noc%20Sas/SANY0006.jpg)

next we get everything drilled and tapped out for the limb bolts and location pins....


(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Doc%20Noc%20Sas/SANY0005.jpg)

(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Doc%20Noc%20Sas/SANY0007.jpg)

(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Doc%20Noc%20Sas/SANY0008.jpg)

(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Doc%20Noc%20Sas/SANY0016-1.jpg)

:bigsmyl:

Ain't that sumpin!?

Ya got that "skill" part right, Killy!

Craftsmanship... skill, experience... combine that with Kirk's thirst for knowledge and driven penchant for "testing everything" to see how, why and IF it really works...and oh, my...

Hey Doc, Postman show up yet?

NOPE...usual postal delivery on Saturday is about 4pm...I'm afraid to even jump in the shower!  :)

In my past experience, I've had Priority deliveries come very LATE in the day...when it comes in they told me (back a few years) that they have to deliver it...but hey... I dunno.  

It'll show when it shows...but I do feel like a kid at Christmas!

Living alone has it's drawbacks, but I can set up my target bag on the kitchen table and do bale work without being in trouble!    :laughing:

Lucky you I used to get away with shooting through the house, but now the kids hold me hostage on the bribe(I will tell mom you shot in the kitchen). Good things come to those who wait, as long as the postman isnt hung over...LOL

I listen for the sound of running water before I knock.

Killdeer~the mailma'am.

2nd floor shower is in the back of the townhouse...doubt they could hear it lest they stuck their head in...

Alas, guy rolled up...regular gent is on vacation.

Said that is the last of any deliver for priority today... but I did get fedders from Magnus!

Oh, well...monday then...

Me an ole Carly Simon...antici-paay-shun

Looking forward to "the rest of the story".

I hear whinning in the background from the peanut gallery...

Ok, here's my last informational installment for the day...  :)

Kirk Listens

Kirk listened to me more than I realized. He listened when I said I love figure and wood grain.  We debated pro's and con's on some issues. I'm not afraid to question what I don't understand... until I do understand.  One friend was curious if Kirk would still be talking to me at the end of the build.

I didn't want all the fancy lay ups, or footings, in my riser that add cost to just be "eye candy."  I wanted a bow that functions at peak performance, even though I've had to lower draw weight due to age and other medical type issues.  

However, I did opt to increase mass and strength with a wood I-beam. I'm not drawing heavy bows as arthritis has taken it's toll...so I didn't need tremendous riser strength provided by Kirk's "G-10" I-beam... but I wanted increased stability and mass so we agreed on a wood I-beam.

Maybe Kirk could illuminate at what point the G-10 becomes a serious asset versus the wood I-beam or other riser configurations...

Kirk has shown here on Gang some exotically beautiful bows of Bocote he has built.  I asked about that wood. He showed me pics of a slab for  a riser bocote that made tears come to my eyes... he is not only a driven tester and performance perfectionist, but he is an artist.  We settled on a combo of waterfall bubinga (he calls it "snake fight") for the wood I–beam sandwiched into this incredible piece of Bocote...!

You've seen the lay up of those woods... but here was the material set aside for my build
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Snakefight.jpg)

Kirk's artistic vent was in over-drive. He put the bubinga over the back of the riser for contrast to the bocote back limb veneers.

You saw those overlays in his one "build" shot lying there to become "belly ramp caps".  if you look close, you can see the belly ramp caps tying the bubinga in the middle of the riser sandwich together on the belly side along with the overlay on the back side of the riser.

Sweet!
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/riserbuild2.jpg)

gee Doc, don't want to spit in your tea, but mine shipped out thursday, and I spent the better part of the day shooting it.  :eek:    :jumper:

Well, Larry... then you're blessed!!!

All I care about at this point is that it arrives in one piece, safe and sound...

Down here, they likely hauled it to my town in an Amish buggy

well, Ill say this, there is a very good chance that you will enjoy it when it shows!

Hey Doc, don't worry, the bow will show up in great shape, I hear Kirk does an excellent job of packing his bows. Finally got to see a Sasquatch in person at GLLI and talk to another person that owns one. The risers look blocky to me in photos but in person they have a pleasant line. Lots of mass in there with the G10, maybe a bit lighter in yours, I think you will like that. Waterfall bubinga is a beautiful veneer. Can't wait to see the pics.

QuoteOriginally posted by Doc Nock:


Down here, they likely hauled it to my town in an Amish buggy

Hey ol bud, you opted to live in PA! I think I might hijack me a buggy on Monday!   :scared:

here is what those veneers look like under glass...

(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Doc%20Noc%20Sas/SANY0014-1.jpg)

No way will a bow made like that get to you in one piece!

QuoteOriginally posted by owlbait:
No way will a bow made like that get to you in one piece!

Owly,

Remind me to never put you on my "call" list if I am ever bummed out or need encouragement!    :laughing:

That is just so kind of you right before bedtime.      

Things will start to unfold here a bit quicker later tomorrow and into the early week...

Especially after the bow actually arrives in my hot mitts!

Think he just means since its a takedown    :pray:  
This is gonna be interesting. Hope it fixes whatever you were having problems with after it gets there.

QuoteOriginally posted by owlbait:
No way will a bow made like that get to you in one piece!

You are absolutely right mr. owl.... it's a 3 piece bow.   :readit:

:)   I didn't figure Hoot Owl meant it to be mean really...    ;)  

But if that was the joke...cause it's a "3-piece" that one went over my head, guys... it was late! LOL :)Ya'll got me good on that one! Good'un, guys!   :saywhat:  

*******************

As you all saw... the limbs are XX carbon matrix.

After my deposit, I managed to pay ahead a bit at a time, thru my "wait period".  As luck would have it, by spreading out the payment over time, I was able to squeeze out a few "bells and whistles."

One option I really wanted, due to my lower draw weight, was to go with XX carbon and foam core on my limbs. I was shooting for a draw weight in the 45-47# range.  Kirk agreed that the XX works best in the longbow limb and the XXX in his recurve limbs. We settled on XX and foam core.

Because I love wood grain, I inquired if there was a terrible performance loss if I got veneers both belly and back of the limbs?  Kirk recommended very thin veneers back and belly under thin glass.  He stated with the carbon and foam core, I'd only lose a few fps.  

I know the logic of veneers on the 'back' and black glass on the belly for enhanced performance, but then I sit there in my stand with my bow backwards admiring the backside veneers on long waits...and am NOT prepared should/when a deer shows up.   :knothead:    

That would not do... Yup! THIN veneers on belly and back...with the carbon foam core limbs... that'll work!

Remember, these we saw Kirk posted yesterday...

(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Big%20foot/SANY0024.jpg)

That's the belly...

the back was going to be thin veneers of that great looking bocote (nice job on the sculpted tips, Kirk)
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Big%20foot/SANY0045.jpg)

Looking good. Hope she arrives Monday and you can spill the beans. Interested to see how the I-beam and caps came out.

:bigsmyl:  Of course I meant because it was a 3 piece takedown! Even Kirk wouldn't ship a takedown assembled, unless he was afraid that in all your excitement you might struggle getting her put together! Monday is your day Doc.

Here ya go Dave... i found that picture of the bocote veneers....

(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Doc%20Noc%20Sas/SANY0014-2.jpg)

Here is a photo of the Matrix carbon, and how the stuff is laid up.....

(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bow%20building/TD%20Sasquatch%202011/SANY0012.jpg)

There are many different types of carbon and each recipe has a different lay up configuration and different strength properties. Using the right combination with uni carbon combined, can enhance the stability and performance of the limb considerably.

(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Drawings/Untitled-2.gif)

Back from the day shoot... did really well considering I was dancing with my old partner...and not the new gal.

Shot high on ONE target --- a long rang goat against a rock wall...

Seems I have some repair work on that carbon...or try to salvage some parts anyway... Craaaap.

sigh... just looking at those veneers and woods again brings back grand memories of the first time Kirk showed them to me... I think a tear ran down my cheek to think that li'l ole ME was going to get THOSE woods in MY bow!    :eek:  

That is some graphic on the carbon, Kirk!

I know you blew up a lot of limbs finding what lay up of the varied formats of carbon limb materials provide you the performance + vertical and horizontal (?) stability that you wanted.

I think I'm glad I met you now that you have that all figured out!    :thumbsup:

Good luck sleeping tonight Doc. Like a kid on Christmas eve.

Oh, with my luck, the loyal USPS folks will have inadvertently slipped it into a trailer bound for Maine and I won't see it till Wednesday...    :scared:  

Larry posted our bows both shipped at the same time and his hit NY early YESTERDAY... so I am trying to steel myself for perhaps Tuesday....but I can hope!

*********************************
On with the story...

As Kirk and I discussed the layout of the bow and the 2 beautiful woods (you've seen both the Bubinga and bocote), I managed to scrape a few more $$$ and get the belly ramp caps to accentuate and compliment the bocote and waterfall bubinga in the riser.

But the goal of all this, besides being devoted to a few "performance enhancements", (XX carbon matrix and foam core) was to get a bow that FIT.

One that I would pick up and would snuggle into my hand the SAME WAY every time...to help create consistency[/b] so the rest of my form work would result in improved accuracy.  

My choices have always been to offset my consistent inconsistencies in my self, by trying to eliminate inconsistencies in those things I use!

Now if the Postman would just here so I can see what I can see...!    :saywhat:

Easy Dave, good things come to those who wait and wait and wait...  hehe. Once she is in your hands you will forget all about the wait, with those woods you should be overwhelmed.

With Kirk's skill I am sure you will love the grip.

How about a sneak preview of those belly ramps Dave?  if this doesn't make you loose sleep... nothing will....    :biglaugh:  

 (http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Doc%20Noc%20Sas/SANY0040.jpg)

And stippled grip too? Doc, you went some bells but mostly whistles on this one!  :bigsmyl:    :thumbsup:

That is some perfect lighting on that, Kirk...

And yeah...that oughta have me "tossin and turnin, turning and tossin, turning and tossing all night[/b]"

And if that ain't enough, this outa help up the ante.

(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Big%20foot/SANY0028.jpg)

Introduce your Shop Assistant, Kirk...is her name Gracie as I thought?

BTW, I put up a question earlier... when do you most strongly recommend the G-10 for an I-Beam vs. a wood I-beam? Is there a weight point or what?

Owly,

Nope... not mostly Whistles...cat calls or "wolf whistles, maybe, but that is all just things that naturally flowed outa the combination of carefully chosen woods and then the artful melding Kirk did...tying it all together in harmonious ways --- Those were all his ideas.

And every addition also served a functional purpose... stippling was part of Kirk's recommendation for consistent grip alignment too.

All I had to do was sneak around at 2AM and steal all the aluminum cans out of my neighborhood recycle bins for a couple weeks and take them to the Recycle place for cash myself...

Y'know...some of them still had BEER in them. Added bonus!   :eek:    :scared:    :knothead:

that's a wild looking riser doc nock!

Very nice!! I like that combination really well.

God bless, Steve

Doc that is exactly what I was thinking! WOW! I'm gonna hook up some bags and baskets on my bicycle and start picking cans too! I wish you nothing but 12 rings and P&Yers from here on out. Well, starting tomorrow....maybe  ;)    :p

Doc, you should have no worries about the grip fit ....... the one kirk made for me, my hand automatically goes to the same place each time. I was sharing with a fellow bowhunter of mine how my previous bow made my elbow hurt after shooting it. My new Sasquatch does not, and in fact seems to make my elbow feel BETTER!
AND shoots "Dead in the Hand".  :thumbsup:

Thanks, Larry...I'm sure yours is pretty "wild" too in that you have had it in your hot hands for 2 days now!  :)

Thanks for all the neat comments. I picked woods, sure, but the Meister is the one who put it together in a way that carried thru.

Kirk and I talked a lot via email on how to bring this to fruition.  I didn't want that beautiful waterfall (snake fight) bubinga to just be seen in the sight window...rest of the I-beam was edge grain...so Kirk quickly suggested that he was going to run a lam of it down the back side of the riser to tie into the bocote veneers on the back... and then he got the idea to use the "belly ramp caps" to show that gorgeous bubinga wavy grain and tie it into the I-beam. As you see on page 4, it worked incredibly well.

The man has the eye of an artist!

The bow looks as good from the back side as the belly side:
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/riserback1.jpg)

I like grain (figure, burl and swirl) and I like contrast... I got it all with Kirk's help and choice of wood blocks to put together and then tie it all into one smooth transitioning piece of functional art

Sweet looking bow Doc, I hope it does everything you want it to, and you've learned well Grasshopper, Charlie would be proud.

Great looking bow Doc,let us know how you like shooting it.

Sorry about missing the I-bean question earlier Doc.....

Wood I-beams are not new at all, It's the name we chose for that center lamination that's new. a lot of the older Bear bows and Ben Pearson bows to name a couple incorporated multiple lamination's in the wood risers to help strengthen them. Often times is was done with the same piece of wood too..... Besides strengthening the riser it also eliminates warping or twisting that isn't uncommon using one solid piece of wood.

The G-10 material i use is actually called  Garolite. It's an epoxy fiberglass lay up with very high tensile strength. i recommend this product for increasing riser stiffness and adding mass weight to a riser for those who like a little more physical weight in their hands.

   

Quotewhen do you most strongly recommend the G-10 for an I-Beam vs. a wood I-beam? Is there a weight point or what?

To answer your question specifically, I would most strongly recommend using G-10 when the  riser wood choice is questionable in strength vs the draw weight of the bow. A good example of that is using domestic hardwoods like black walnut, western curly maple, or all different kinds of burl wood.... the riser shape and length itself can be a determining factor too.

I also highly recommend it for those that like really skinny grips with a circumfrence of 4.75" or less.

Your riser has a "Radius Back" and will be stronger than a riser with a "Flair back" like this one because the two limb pads are connected, or tied together.

here is a couple flair back risers with, and without an I beam.... the first one has a G-10 I beam exposed. the second one uses a flair shape footing with fiberglass accents for strength.

 (http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Lyonels%20TD%20Sas%20LB/SANY0001.jpg)

 (http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Lyonels%20TD%20Sas%20LB/SANY0004.jpg)

 (http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Lyonels%20TD%20Sas%20LB/SANY0028.jpg)

 (http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Lyonels%20TD%20Sas%20LB/SANY0024.jpg)


I hope that answers your question... Kirk

My son David and I were able to spend a good bit of time speaking with Kirk at ETAR (and shooting his bows  :)  )and I will say that this whole thread is further proof to me of the type of bowyer Kirk is. He was so willing to discuss, not only what he does, but why he does it, and that speaks a lot. It really seems that bow making, and that includes designing, trying, testing, etc. is really a passion for him and it shows in his work. I can only say that if I was to look for a new bow his name would be at the top of a very short list.

My son, however, has a really short list, one, and that is Kirk. I just have to get him to the point where he can earn money from people other than me.

Enjoy your bow, Doc! I'm sure it will be a shooter as much as it is a beauty.

Well, see...I'm NOT done learning. I never really understood that G-10 I-beam as well as I now do.

Tween my fat arse grip, and the strong woods, the wood I-beam just works fine and suited my tastes better and I'm sure, will give my poor ole tired bones plenty of riser mass.

Some of the much smaller, almost "splinter" style longbow grips and risers just never gave me enough meat to hang onto...or weight to keep the bow grounded...

Crash, Grinch,

Thanks! I made all my choices on this bad boy, except the woods, to do one thing... help me shoot better! Kirk came highly recommended as one to truly put the meaning back into the word custom bowyer, and I was assured (as has played out here by others posts over and over) that if anyone could make a grip fit ME, it was HE!    :thumbsup:  

Kirk added the artistic flare and eye appeal.  I made a few suggestions and over time, he'd get back to me and say something like, "Y'know, I thought you were nuts (I think he still does) but that idea of one veneer on the belly and a different on the back might just work", but other'n that, it's all his own artistic flare surfacing.

David,
I agree.  Kirk will never make the most money...he invests way too much time with a customer, teaching, sharing and building a total appreciation (and understanding) in what choices the person is making so they have NO buyer's remorse.

I hung around a few bowyer's shops. I've seen things done. But to see it, almost experience it and to actually come to "understand it", has only elevated the process from just plain amazing to a true scientific/artistic level and made me feel a part of "MY BOW".

I don't know your son's age, but helping him buy something that will be with him over time and help shape him in an adventure of the outdoors will serve him a lot longer than a new cell phone, laptop, or even a car...

All 3 of those might only serve to help him dig a deeper hole with those purdy looking gals... and that can only lead to TROUBLE!  :)    :rolleyes:    :goldtooth:

Doc, when you get that beauty in your hands, would you please show some closeups of the grip and your hand on the bow?  You have a nice eye for wood combos.

Doc Doc Doc, you know you won't sleep a wink until she arrives.

"Sorry about missing the I-bean question earlier Doc..... "

Apple has come out with a fiber supplement?
Crap.

Killdeer    :confused:      ;)    
Wake up, Doc!
Maybe it will come in an early Express run!
   :biglaugh:

GOOD MORNING VIET NAM!!!

Ah, yes... I think if Kirk had sent it "Express" he'd have told me.  I think it's just PRIORITY and they tell me locally, that doesn't get any special handling for delivery...just rolls out with the regular mail and if it's there, it's there... comes in after the carrier leaves, NOPE!

Yeah...I'm excited...but shoot...it was worth waiting for my "slot" to open up...so it's worth waiting a few days yet...A FEW!   :bigsmyl:

BEyondmyKen,


This is the best I can do for you...right now.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Big%20foot/Davesgrip.gif)

Kirk studied my shooting over and over from videos and stills... and is apparently quite good at picking out the degree of angle folks have in their bow holding position... as you can read, many have been so delighted with the EXACT fit they got from KIRK

That doesn't shot much... but it's something to hold ya while I wait...

OH...btw, my Rememberer didn't break...

That adorable dog's name really is GRACIE!

Not only a fine assistant in the shop and a great eye for detail in the finished format, but apparently quite the squirrel dog who tries to climb trees to boot!    :rolleyes:    :jumper:

QuoteOriginally posted by Doc Nock:



I don't know your son's age, but helping him buy something that will be with him over time and help shape him in an adventure of the outdoors will serve him a lot longer than a new cell phone, laptop, or even a car...

All 3 of those might only serve to help him dig a deeper hole with those purdy looking gals... and that can only lead to TROUBLE!   :)      :rolleyes:      :jumper:    

I definitely agree with you on all points there, Doc. No cell phone, no laptop, too young for a car yet (only 14). Knowing my son he will find some way to work off the money needed to get one. He's done it before for one of those wheelie things (he still shoots both - and still shoots trad better than me - kids). He's making and selling wood arrows at present - nice stuff too.

Enjoy your bow. Hope this was a bit of a distraction from a few anxious moments of waiting.    :)

David,

Didn't mean to meddle. Sounds like you're a GOOD parent in not handing the world to your son...

I see that as a form of child abuse to give all those things...then when real world reality hits when on their own...they get blindsided.

If he shoots Trad so well, perhaps if he has a strong enough desire for a Sas...he can sell that wheelie contraption with the season approaching and do well!?    :bigsmyl:

Congrats to you and your son.  He doesn't realize the benefits of your parenting approach just yet, but he will!

I know this is my "once in a lifetime" bow experience and I have every confidence that this will be "IT"!  :)

No worries about "meddling", Doc. I need as much wisdom as I can get. I ask daily too (James 1) but can always use it from those that have walked the road as well. So, thank you, and feel free to "meddle" away.  :)

He's not at the point of selling the wheelie thing yet. Still enjoys shooting both. I think he really wants to take a deer this year with both (if possible - and he should have the opportunity). He missed one last year with the compound and had a chance at a big deer (130's?) with the recurve but didn't feel comfortable shooting it with the shot he had. I'm thankful he was willing to pass a shot that he wasn't comfortable with. I'm guessing the wheelie will go before too long though as he "enjoys" shooting traditional far more (who doesn't when the try it). His choice though in his time. This is one of those areas where I have to give him liberty to choose. It's not a matter of right or wrong morally.  :)  

Looking forward to the pictures when you get the bow.

Blessings.

Great thread guys!!!!! Congrats on the bow, you picked a winner with ol Kirk    :thumbsup:

Here is a film clip i got at Baltimore this year to study Doc's grip and shooting style.

http://youtu.be/U_zIPeO4rOI

I've got some film clips of David's son shooting at Denton Hill i'm editing right now. I've been to busy to play with my video editor much lately... Kirk

Here is one for you explaining what i did to make that grip fit you well Doc....

http://youtu.be/dTHSKNHFXwY

Well, boys and girls, there ya have it...the Meister at work and straight from the horse's mouth.
Kirk had sent me those 2 last week, but I figured I'd not be able to do justice to them...been having Photo bucket issues and videos won't post anyway.

Yohon,

Thanks...now all I have to do is hook up with some of you MD boys on them fine tasting Sikas and slip a shaft thru one...been too many years!

Does Blackwater got any water this year?

QuoteOriginally posted by BeNoIt:
My son David and I were able to spend a good bit of time speaking with Kirk at ETAR (and shooting his bows   :)   )and I will say that this whole thread is further proof to me of the type of bowyer Kirk is. He was so willing to discuss, not only what he does, but why he does it, and that speaks a lot. It really seems that bow making, and that includes designing, trying, testing, etc. is really a passion for him and it shows in his work. I can only say that if I was to look for a new bow his name would be at the top of a very short list.

My son, however, has a really short list, one, and that is Kirk. I just have to get him to the point where he can earn money from people other than me.

Here is that film clip of your boy David.... Keep in mind that we can put together a package for a high performance bow for him without going to the fully blown triple carbon limbs. Start out with some black or brown glass limbs and he can always order some carbon limbs next year.

http://youtu.be/P6iUTJXPazg

Indeed. That is mostly likely the direction he will proceed. He has already started working on getting the finances in place.  :)  Thanks, Kirk, for sharing the video and the time spent.

SWEET! That kid has the best accuracy I've seen with an unknown bow in a long, long time.

Now if I can shoot that well when I get my Sas...I might have to change my will and add Kirk in!

Doc.....no water at "blackwater" thats for sure....dry, dry ,dry BUT it wont take much for that to change.....I figure we'll make up for the rain as soon as the season comes in!!!  There is one plus to the dry weather.....hardly any mosquito's!!!!

1:30pm and no mail delivery "yet"... if not in within the hour, then it won't happen today more than likely!  :(

But there is always tomorrow! LOL  :)

Thanks, Yohon...sent you note

Hey Doc did you say you were going to hunt with this bow? If so, please mark the date and give us a 1 year review on how stable the performance and finish is after 1 year. Always interesting to find out if high performing truly custom bows can remain on the edge over a period of time.   :thumbsup:

Owly...

Interesting request...

I know a few folks who have had Bigfoot bows for a good number of years and no such issues, but sure, I can continue to report my experiences...

I expect and would demand nothing but the best from any bowyer.

I've only ever had one bow that the finish blistered and they had some issue and told me up front...then refinished the bow when I wanted it because it was their problem.

With Kirk's vent toward perfectionism, I have no doubts this bow will withstand the rigors of hunting.

You should hear the stories his bows go thru in the rainy Oregon coast hunting elk!

Ok, folks...it arrived!!!

I had to chase the silly mailman down as he drove past but was just looking to park... LOL

You wanted pics when it showed up so here is it's "arrival" snap shot!

(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Big%20foot/P8200107.jpg)

I got corn-on-the-cob cooking and hate when it gets tough...I'll be back... (in my best arnie Swartz accent)

This has to be killing you Doc!!!

Spoke to soon    :bigsmyl:

Owlbait I have 2 of Kirks bows that are both over 1 year old and the finish and performance are still.the same as when I got them new. Top quality bows from a top notch guy

Thanks Scott. I know Kirk hasn't built a ton of bows yet and so I'm trying to find out as much as I can. The 2 people I spoke to directly REALLY like the performance. But, they have had them less then a year. I did notice some shiny finish spots on the one I got to fondle and I'm curious as to how that finish holds up after a year of good hard use. As pretty as they are, they have to hunt!  :D

Mike,

Kirk is in his 6th year.

Did you read all the posts I've made?  Kirk has likely built more limbs and risers than you can imagine...

When he undertook carbon, there are so many materials and flavors of carbon, types of lay up, and he's built scores of limbs and changes just one factor at a time.

Then he's pulled them back to full draw, fixed them in that position and hooks up a camera that is high speed to watch how they act under extreme stress over time... when they finally "let go" he can go frame by frame to watch what happens, where, and ascertain WHAT happened and then make adjustments to his lay up and start testing all over.

As I understand it, he's been focused on testing every conceivable combination of carbon in varied ways for over 2 years...blowing up thousands of dollars worth of limbs just to ensure that his stuff exceeds market expectations and his OWN demands.

There is a reason this ole buck invested what I did, scrounged the recycle bins for weeks and saved up extra pennies to get THIS man to build me a bow.

Corn is calling...gotta git

Oh, yeah...all my bows are mat finish...and everyone of them over time has developed shiny spots in the grip where I rubbed it constantly over time with sweaty paws and wool gloves.

Only one that will stay as it was would be High Gloss...and you'll never see that in my hand!

owlbait......exactly what is your question regarding Kirk's high performance, on the cutting edge bows holding up over time, and especially in 1 year? What do you think may possibly change in 1 month or 1 year?
If it ain't going to stay together. it would blow up before it ever left Kirk's shop.

As far as the finish on a bow.....any bow.....any type finish, it's going to get shiny any place it's handled a lot over time.....especially on the grip.

Let me give you a testimate to Kirk's bows. I have shot the devil out of one for quite a while now.....yes sir....the grip area is shiner that the rest of the bow, but I'm not going to talk about Kirk's finish because it's as good as any out there. Kirk is not the only bowyer using this particular finish, so it is indeed time tested and proven....now....on with the story.
Folks talk about a bow being bomb proof. I doubt any are bomb proof, but I can attest to how well Kirk's bows are built.....long story short...my Big Foot was snatched out of a crew cab Ranger Polaris, which is pretty big, heavy machine. The bow was jerked out of the Ranger, on a solid rock road, ran over two (2) times with both the front and back wheels. I had a Thunderhorn quiver full of POC arrows in the quiver. Quiver was smashed completely flat, and the arrows were a pile of toothpicks. The bow was ran over while lying on it's side....limb edges up. It had some nice, deep gouges in both limbs and the riser from being ran over on solid rock. Neither limb was even twisted, much less broken....and yeah....the finish was messed up too.... It was like new after a simple refinish.
This bow had been shot thousands of times before the wreck, and it's been shot thousands of times after the wreck.

Maybe this story will help answer you questioning Kirk's bows holding up for any length of time.

I could let you hold it, look at, and shoot the bow today, and you wouldn't know that it wasn't delivered  today.....well, except for the shiny area on the grip.

oh c'mon man ! nobody gets a brand new bow and waits till after they eat to set it up and shoot it! we want info!!

Looking forward to your review. Glad you finally got and hope it fits like a glove.

Billy, you make such a good testament, I feel impotent to try! Those are some incredible experiences.  

Mike(owlbait) has good questions and has gotten some good answers... Kirk hasn't been around "as long" as some others, but I dare say with his penchant for "Testing out the whazoo" he's caught up pretty quickly.

Mike, I hope these testaments help resolve your questions.  Legitimate thou they be, the length of time one is in biz seems to pale to the level of effort, testing and perfectionism evidence in that testing to challenge the status quo and get definitive answers.

I would never worry about fit or finish on this knuckle headed, perfectionistic yahoo's bow finish! What he builds...will last!

Billy gives some powerful examples. I've had to refinish other top end bows... but time will be the tale you wish and we'll for sure share here but you've got some good longer version tales already... and Kirk just keeps learning and adapting.

Hey, Larry...how old are you? AT my age, food comes first. I had to sit around all day Saturday and NOT get to play like you did...cut me a break...I was hungry and my corn was getting "old"--ate good though! LOL    :bigsmyl:  

I'll be back!

The Bow
Naturally, all good things take time.  When the bow was ready to send, I'd gotten enough pictures along the way to be totally freaked out on it's looks...but would it perform???

On arrival and assembly, it was truly such a thing of beauty, I hated to break the spell by stringing it and getting down to business, but I invested in a "TOOL" and the goal was for it to work with me.

Kirk finds a brace height on each bow before he sends it. He recommends that height based on shooting dozens of arrows before it's even gotten the final finish sprayed on!

I had some domestic chores to finish up...but got to shoot a bit before dark...

I have my "go to" bow that has an ultra large grip. That was the best I could get in the past...big to accommodate my big paw.

This riser was a bit less huge, but the angles were precision ground to suit my shooting form.

Well now... soon as I get the pics loaded up, more to follow...might be tomorrow, but rest assured, this sucker is as functional as it is beautiful!

Some of Kirk's pics of the finished bow by way of review...better'n my lousy pics:

  (http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Big%20foot/SANY0046.jpg)

  (http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Big%20foot/SANY0049.jpg)

  (http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Big%20foot/SANY0036.jpg)

  (http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Big%20foot/SANY0014.jpg)

Beautiful bow Doc.  Kirk seems like a great guy!!  I will own a Bigfoot bow some day.  

I hope you did not scare the post man!!  Sounds like this bow helped you revisit your "little kid" days!  ha ha.

Have fun and let us know how you like it! (as if that's going to be a problem.)

Guys Billy is telling the truth of the Bow Accident,I was there at the same hunt with Billy and Kirk when this happened. At first I thought BILLY was pulling our leg til I saw his bow and then I stood there speechless.

52 Doc, and there's nothing like a good fast, to help clear the mind and focus  :D    :campfire:

Larry,

My buddy grew up in that NE NY town with the horse track and the theater and the "cathartic springs"...can't remember the name off hand...

You should try the water there if you want to have a total body cleansing!   :rolleyes:    :knothead:

Billy, Thats quite a story. I did that to a rifle on a coyote hunt once. Never to a bow though.I dearly love Bro. Kirk but I bet the good Lord protected that bow from being a bunch of splinters more than the epoxy and glass and carbon and Kirks great workmanship in this one.
In other words , you were blessed to not have your bow broken.

Owlbait. Kirks bows will last as long as any bow built using high performance materials. I doubt that a carbon bow built by any builder in the world will hold up any longer. Including mine./

God bless,
Steve

Don't let old owl bait ruffle your feathers Billy. every thread that comes up on one of my bows he's gotta stir the pot a little bit for some reason....

but..... he brought up a good subject that I'd be glad to address... The finish is important on a bow and there are many different kinds out there that bowyer's use for various reasons.

Self bowyer's are real fond of natural oil finishes such as linseed oil, and tongue oil. These are beautiful long lasting finishes, but need yearly maintenance, and wax to keep them looking good.

Then you have True oil. This is a product that is very popular for self bowyer's, gun stocks and glass bows alike. It has a harder finish that builds up in layers, where the natural oil finishes are more of a penetrating finish the soaks into the pores. the true oil has a way of really bringing the colors out of the wood, but unfortunately it scratches easily..... it's a high maintanance4 finish too if you are tough on your bow. but steel wool polishes it out pretty easily.

Then you have all the different epoxy finishes out there like auto clear coats, T Bird, and many other marine finishes that i won't even try and list. These are a very hard finishes that resist scratching more than either the natural oil, or true oil does..... but... they don't have the natural look to them when they are done. in some cases these epoxy clear coats look like a beautiful piece of wood that is covered in plastic. it's definately the toughest stuff out there, but once you do scratch it or dent it. it requires a lot more work to refinish it. it also can yellow with age.

A lot of bowyer's use a Fuller-Plast finish. Its been around for a long time, but from everthing i've heard it's nasty stuff to work with, so I've never gone there myself.

My favorite is is a high grade water resistant conversion varnish called "Krystal".... like the name, it goes on crystal clear and stays that way. it's much easier to work with than the epoxy finish too. The best part about this finish is that when you get it scratched up, it easily polishes out with 0000 steel wool and a cotton rag..... durability and longevity of any finish is totally dependent on the amount of abuse the bow takes, and weather conditions..... I've totally thrashed my hunting bow and it lasted a couple years before it needed some polishing up.
after year 3, i finally decided to refinish it. but it still wasn't in bad shape at all for what i put the thing through....

I have used all of the finishes above, and still do upon request,  with the exception of Fuller Plast. I won't touch that stuff.

hopefully this is helpful....  Kirk

I've been around bows and bowyers for awhile, and I know how much work goes into R&D, and I've heard Kirk say he hasn't built as many bows as some of the big names. So, it doesn't seem there is a BIG sample out there yet. My question on finish was an honest one based on my personal observation. Another bowyer I asked about his finish doing the same thing(not just a grip issue) changed his finish procedure. Made a difference. Kirk's reputation is to push the envelope. It's a fair question to ask how longlasting those pushes work. I'd dare say that Kirk's bows this year are ahead of the bows last year, so I'm asking for comparisions of recently built bows. Maybe Kirk wouldn't take an order from me because I "stir the pot", but every question/statement I ask is based on what I is see or percieve from Kirk's and others posts. If Kirk really is on the cutting edge, then it will be proven over time with more anecdotes then from his buddies. If there is some questions instead of constant back patting, it should help not hurt, hopefully.

Owlbait, it sure came across differently in  your original post the way I read it. I mean I thought out loud whats this guys problem. Everyone is entitled to there opinion of course and I think I understand yours.

Sorry to get sidetracked guys/gals, now back to topic please, Doc Nocks bow.

She is a beauty and will be awaiting your thoughts after getting to know her better Dave.

YOu make great points, Mike...

All but your conclusion that those of us who "support" Kirk are "buddies."

Did you ever stop to think that after some of us who've been around the block a few times, speak highly of Kirk because the experience is defintely a totally different one from the "big names" who have more bows "out there?"   :readit:    

I met kirk on line. he responded to my very personal detailed history of bowyers and custom (?) bows and my need for something "more."

Thru that process, we stepped on one another's toes more than a few times, but he's smart enough and secure enough in his work that he could tell my challenges were from the heart...as I would wish to believe are your own.

Difference is that I paid my freight and then challenged the devil out of Kirk to "prove to me" what he said...and by golly, he DID prove it!

He sent me videos of top contenders' limb designs...showed me how some continue to oscillate till morning while his stop dead in their tracks... transferring more energy into the arrow.  Not once was there a whisper of who built the "other limbs". That's integrity!

For those who look for such character issues, they are found in some, not so easily in others. We all have opinions like body parts!  :)

I met Kirk briefly at B'more...he did spend an hour with me taking videos, but his openness, honesty and candor, even to the point of calling BS on various of my beliefs about arrows and such, built a "TRUST" in him that lingers.

Buddies? I'd hardly say so. Don't know the man well enough, but in the months we've exchanged a lot of emails and phone conversations and that bit of personal face time, I've come to trust, respect and believe in the man's talent, his heart and his dedication to never quit and to make the best product for the customer.

If other bowyers who built ME bows shot hundred arrows thru my bow before delivery...they didn't mention it. I never got a suggested brace height..nor a nock point set that so far, with Kirk's bow, WORKS!

Buddies? I don't think that is a wise choice of words...and as a school teacher you know vocabulary is powerful stuff.  Respect? You bet!

I know several bowyers well enough to "like them as people" but I've not seen the level of dedication to go "above and beyond."

If that sounds like a commercial, so be it. I'm impressed!

If there is one thing I know it's economics and ROI..this man couldn't give a flying flip if he's making money as much as if he's making a great product with a bunch of solid research behind every aspect of it.

Kirk not only "pushes the envelope"...which to my reading suggests he's on the cutting edge. If I've portrayed that his efforts are just "far out experiments" ,i.e, "cutting edge" without substance, in my missive, I've failed miserably.

What I would have preferred to have communicated is that Kirk doesn't take what is "accepted belief" and build on THAT WITHOUT testing it first!

I'd prefer to think of that as going back and building a solid foundation on "known testing" and proven factors, not presumptions and hearsay or what other more established craftsman believe is true.

I don't mean to sound defensive, Mike, but I made my living for a lot of my life with words...words are power, and some choices tend to paint pictures that need to be challenged.

I made the point early on that I choose Kirk because he is "data driven"... BS walks and testing talks in my world.

Cutting edge be damned.  Testing  what is believed "truisms" takes some courage and cajones... if one finds that the status quo has holes in it, then sure...I guess you could call that "cutting edge"...but not as in "radical departures from tried and TESTED & proven stuff.

I have 3 bows in my new bows draw range. This bow is smoother, lighter in "felt draw" and yet it zings my standard 585 grain EFOC arrows better than my others who clock in with higher draw weights....oh...and it actually FITS my hand.

Anecdotes from a buddy?[/i] I think that is what rankles a bit...I'm not his buddy. I've become a "fan" working with the man and experiencing an interaction like I've never known with any other "custom" bowyer. I paid for that experience and that opinon. Thank you very much!

For true and certain, there is not enough of my $$ to go around and experience ALL the bowyers out there who are superb! And perhaps you've had similar experiences, but it feels rather degrading to relegate my experiences to being his "buddy" and "back patting". I take exception to those particular thoughts in print.

My experience with Kirk generates respect...and a bit of loyalty when the proof is in the pudding and I have shot the pudding and like the results!  :)

Back patting? There is an old expression I'm tempted to drag out...it ain't braggin when it's truth!

:)  To each his own. You have your obvious favorites from your many posts.

I took a "wait and see" approach...sifted and sorted and let the chaff be separated from the grain.

God bless America and the free enterprise system.  Your dollars speak as loudly as mine and the rest who have paid the anty and found superiority! Amen.

Ply your dollars wisely but please don't denigrate my learned experiences to some sophomoric "fan club" or 'buddy' experience.

Thank you for clarifying your position in a much shorter reply than my own... but again, words are power and you used some powerful, if not potentially mis-interpreted vocab in your post that I hope I've set straight with some careful and respectful counters.

Wow Doc. I didn't even have you in his "buddy" column! I was looking at "new customer, waiting for an unbiased review, column".  :D  I apologize if I have offended you or anyone else. Good luck with the bow, many straight arrows, and heavy buck poles to you. I figured I was 12 months from being able to "try" to get on Kirk's waiting list, with another 12 months to pay for a nice retirement gift for myself. Hopefully the reviews continue favorably.

Well stated Doc, makes me want to call Kirk and order one myself.  Probably shouldn't do that though, doghouse isn't big enough for me and the dog.  When are you going to get into more pics and a review of how it shot for you?

Good Luck with your new bow Doc.
She is a beauty!

  :thumbsup:

MIke,

There were just a few choice words that didn't sit as well as some...but I don't know you're intentions, only what I read.  As I wrote in the above response, I trust your words were from your heart, but there were a couple of phrases in there I just had to take exception to and offer a respectful counter.

I hope you can find in a bowyer what I feel I've found in this man's work and attitude: customer respect, honesty and an uncompromising desire to provide the best bang for the buck.

We should all be so lucky.  You and I are good, Mike! :)Thanks for your candor!

Crash,

I got to shoot her this evening some...

I don't like effusing until I can truly "wring out" all the goodies.

My arrow nocks have been sanded down to fit another bow's skinny string well...

This string that came is not 8 strand, but 10...so the arrow nocks were really tight... and any of us who've played long with tuning know how that messes with results!  :(

However, the bow shot very well... super smooth...way smoother at a higher draw weight (47.23#) vs. some others that I have that are carbon/foam core of another breed at 45# and pull WAY harder... And it was faster by the eye (no chrony for me)

So my "reports" will lack the "data" I like...more about perception...

I might have to take some big risks and open some nocks further for real testing in the next day or so... which I dislike cause the GT nocks have had bad press anyway...    :eek:    :scared:  

A couple of my nocks that are more 'relaxed' zipped into the kill zone like lasers...

I can't believe how this grip feels! Narrower than the big fat corn cob grip I have in my current "go to" bow...which works relatively well if I do a lot of fiddling...

But this? hehehehe... :)  well, let me wring out a few more arrows with the right nock size and see if I can share some things with less variables involved.

Zradix,

I'm tickled to death this is so pretty... I love wood and wood grain. But the grip was my goal and that...from my 30 round experience at first 15, then 20, then 25 yards, even with seriously tight nocks, was just wonderful.

Thanks all, Mike included.  I wanted to do a good job portraying how impressed I've been with how Kirk approaches his "custom" work as though it truly is "one bow at a time" and he works hard and has insights I've not seen in a while.  There are so many bowyers out there of top quality, but what I experienced in MY past was "SURpassed" in working with Bigfoot Bows!

Anything less or that comes across too sappy would be all on me!

I will try to provide a more objective over view with less superlatives, prior to my departure on Thursday...but lots of work between here and there!

Thanks to all so far for reading along!

Good luck with your bow Dave.I am glad you like it.Its a looker.You deserve it bubba.

Take care and have fun with it!

Please let me know when you want some "data" Doc. besides putting a 100 arrows through that bow getting a feel for the ol girl, i ran it through the chrono all set up for hunting, with silencers on the string using fingers...

I'm still struggling with a few loose ends on my high tech shooting machine. So i didn't go there on this bow. Wood working and building things have common sense problems i have no problem seeing... doing diagnostics on electronic load sensors, digital micrometers, and data acquisition for a computer interface, is out of my league....

Hopefully the engineers who said they would help me through this will find time to do so in the near future..... Kirk

I'm happy for you Doc,beautiful bow,congrats.

Owlbait, You might consider that term buddies was not applicable until these fine gentlemen bought and shot Kirks bows and experienced his un-believeable communication with his customers.

I build custom bows and am a competitor and personal friend of Kirks. However when it comes to the communication part of this business I am a lame duck compared to Kirk. I do send pics , Kirk sends vidios. I communicate continually with my customers. Kirk spends hours with them. In fact I can honestly say I don't see how the man has time to build those beautiful bows he builds. I think he might clone himeself.
One thing I have heard allmy life is that you have to taste the pudding to judge how good it is. These men are eating it and enjoying it. Ask Billy Ship how many different kinds of bows he has owned and shot. or ask Doc / You are not talking about novices that are going through the latest bow craze. I own a Bigfoot bow and I can honestly say it is the only bow on my rack or ever has been on my bow rack or in my shop that I  would not want to race for titles.'
God bless you all, Steve
God bless you all, Steve

I think we can move back to the bow now...

My go to bow has a very big grip.  It's 2" wide at the widest part of the palm swell and it's 2.5" from belly to back below the throat.

That massive size helped me be able to control torque, but I'd still occasionally get a feather cut on my bow knuckle.

Kirk posted a video of my shooting and hand position.  He then posted a video of the "why" and the "How" he altered this bow's grip to accommodate my hand position to change my hand location to avoid the problem.

This bow's grip is much more svelte.  It measures 1.75" wide and 2" deep, belly to back below the throat.

I put the bow together...carefully.  This was almost a reverent moment...after all the pictures, all the back and forth conversations and emails... it was really here!   :biglaugh:  

The tips are a bit different than what I'm used to on the bows I've owned... They're built-up on the back side... I wouldn't even TRY to slip the string loop up over them.

(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Big%20foot/SANY0045.jpg)

I used the recommended 'saddle' style stringer.

Ok...I had food on the stove and cook time was critical, but I had to shoot it.  :)

Grabbed an arrow and out the back door...I have an old, old "BLOCK" set up for close shots.

I loaded the bow, put tension on the string and did what Kirk suggested to get the feel and have it settle consistently.

First thing I noticed was that this grip was a lot "smaller" than my big ole one.

We don't have a "quizzical" looking GUI face to post up...

Next as I put pressure on the string, I noticed the stippling... didn't hurt...not like checkering, but I did "notice" it.

Kirk had called and talked me thru prepping the bow, over the weekend. He mentioned that with the correct grip angles to accommodate my wrist rotation, the grip didn't need to be huge...it would sit and fit.

It did! But it DID feel different. Kirk also pointed out that having "desk jockey" hands (my term, not his) I might "notice" the stippling but unlike checkering, it wouldn't abrade my skin!

So I'm prepped.

I pull back to anchor.

First thing I notice is that Kirk must have missed weight...This drew too easily but no, I saw the scale at 47.23#... (asked for 47-48#)

I'd driven some ways weeks back to shoot another man's 47# Sas.  I had my Go to Bow at 45# and his 47# Sas...and his Sas spit my arrows fine but also "felt" a lot lighter in draw than my bow.

Time to let the arrow fly...

My apology has been sent to Kirk and I want to apology to the rest of you for my abrasive posts. I'm a dickhead! Doc's bow is an amazing piece of work. If it"shoots as good as it looks" it will be tremendous. Typically, price and wait time has never been a concern for me, except those last few days(eh Doc?)For some reason I had priced Kirk's bows and wait time out of my league and unfairly judged them. So, Doc-she's a beauty. I thought those wood combos would be too busy, but Kirk nailed the melding off those, and I didn't even know he did stippled grips. What a great custom option. Good luck to ALL the Sasquatch owners and friends, and good luck Kirk!  :thumbsup:

Very nice post owlbait!

Mike, that is very nice of you.  You don't owe me any apology, but it speaks well of your heart to share thoughts with Kirk.

The "fans" of Big Foot I met, all agree that we found a very positive, collaborative and 1:1 experience with Kirk.  It was so refreshing...  :)

I had my fair share of heart breaks on custom bow orders, and this time, I WON big!

I was searching for that type person/bowyer who would work with me to make something that fit me special and still know how to build a performance bow. I got both!  

Choosing a bowyer, doctor, barber...they often are "luck"...and I am grateful for the experience I had with Kirk.  

So if I effuse a bit, I apologize but this has been such a renewing experience.  Kirk likely qualifies for Saint Status after putting up with all my questioning, countering and pestering on issues...but he was a gentleman the whole time... and made me laugh.

Nuff of this stuff...lets talk BOWS!!!  :)

So....there I am...at full draw... thinking that I hit pay dirt on this as it surely feels fine at 47#.

I let the string slip and ...oh, my!  :)

I barely felt the bow go off! It was dead and quiet.

It was only 7 yards...but that shaft was dead center and buried DEEP...

A smile broke across my face...glanced at my watch and grabbed that arrow and shot again...another big smile...then I pulled the arrow and ran for the door... full minute left on the stove timer..whirl and fire ONE MORE from 12 yards... BAM...dead center...

What have I just done?  At this age, I got my first bow that I splurged slowly over time and added a few things to my "last" bow that were pleasing to the eye...

But that just wasn't going to cut it...I wanted THIS bow to fit me and shoot well.

Only 3 arrows...but my, oh, my!

I hear the timer go off and grab that 3rd arrow out of the target...but because I was shooting ACROSS the diagonal of the BLOCK, I had to lay the bow on the grass and use 2 hands to pull that sucker OUT!

From 47# draw? Yeah, REALLY   :bigsmyl:

:bigsmyl:     :archer:

That's great Doc!  That's great Kirk!  Thanks for taking us along your journey.

I gotta figure out how to carefully thin these nocks so I can do some better shooting/testing...tight nocks will ruin your shooting... thin ones, if they fail,      :rolleyes:    can ruin your bow...

fingernail emery boards - cheap also.

Oh Doc...  very excited for ya.  I know how long you have been on "The Bow" quest.  This is a great thread.

Beautiful work Kirk!

Congrats on the new bow Doc. This has been a very interesting thread and I've really enjoyed seeing how your bow came together. I hope the new Bigfoot serves you well for many years to come.

Looks good Doc. Congrats!!

I still have some "results" to share...but that might not happen for a week...

spending way too much time on here! LOL Which isn't all a bad thing.

Thanks for the kind comments...and yeah, Brian, it's been a "quest" for certain!

So far, I am so very pleased. I know I have some gymnastics I've learned to do on other bows, that I now have to let go and relearn to "just shoot".

THAT...that is a trip I'll gladly make to stop the fiddling with every shot trying to find a grip position that is consistent.

More to come...

I've had several of Kirk's bows overthe last few years.  All but one of them are fine, and leaving aside the normal wear and tear of getting dragged through brush, over rocks and up trees are a good as they ever were.  

One of them broke, but breaking that one was my job; I was helping him test a prototype that was amazingly fast, but he was worried, correctly as it turned out, about stability.  That bow was pure R&D and when it failed the RI&D advanced.

I was also with Billy as it happens when his bow was customized by Polaris.  The only time I've seen a man look sadder or more shell shocked was when his dog died.  If you ever need a testament, based purely on fact, friendship or not for Kirk being completely beside the point, that bow's it.  It was run over by an ATV and needed to be refinished - not rebuilt - refinished.  

There are a number of people out there who make damn fine bows. Kirk is one of them.  Some of them have more experience than he does, admittedly.  But on the other hand there are people who have more experience than Kirk who can't match his quality and performance.  The truth remains that it's not how much experience you have, it's what you learned from it that matters.

Last evening... tight knocks and all, I got to shoot the bow for real... after I demolished my corn on the cob!  :)

This is my first shots at 15 yards
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Big%20foot/15yards.jpg)

Pulled them all and went back to 20 yards:
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Big%20foot/20yards.jpg)

Pulled them and went back to 25 yards:
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Big%20foot/25yards.jpg)

I think that is 10 shots each... there are some "called" flyers (but I was the only one there to hear me call it so can't prove it!    :rolleyes: )

But each successively farther shooting sequence seemed to get tighter-- maybe not.

But with tight nocks, I refuse to fiddle with anything remotely related to "tuning".

Today, Lee, my buddy in Lakaster, came up and we shot. I tried to open the nocks slightly, but with GT nocks already credited with some catastrophic failures, I was ginger about it.

We both shot the bow well and Lee only draws 26" ... those pics to follow.  I shook the camera, but they didn't fall out yet!

BTW, I've not shot any better than that at 25 yards...and worse, with my 'go to'bow with the big fat grip... so after only 20 shots thru the bow (oh, wait...I did shoot the 3 while the corn cooked at 7 yards)that last group of 10 at 25 really amazed me...

I've always had to "struggle" with a new grip and bow to get it to shoot...If I DID manage to find a magic hold on it and shot well early...I could never reproduce that hold cause there was no way to know what I was doing when the grip had nothing to help me figure out how I gripped it that it worked well, vs. when it didn't!

I intentionally put this bow down and would pick it back up again over and over to see if it will repeatedly settle in my hand the same...TaDAH! It does! YEAH!    :jumper:  

What's also odd is that this is a 60" bow and my standard bow is 62"... and I've shot this new one a good bit now and my shoulder blades are NOT sore (daily thing with other bows when I shoot) and my elbow doesn't hurt... that's another plus...and this is heavier draw weight... Interesting!

This just keeps getting better and better!  :)

made the 20 minute drive to Lititz and got to see and shoot Doc's new bow....enjoyed it alot!

Took some pics:

Dave shooting the Bigfoot:

(http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy355/fotoguy58/IMG_0971-1.jpg)

I got the chance to shoot it!

(http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy355/fotoguy58/IMG_0977-1.jpg)

had a good time....topped it off with coffee and molasses cookies!


Lee

Well here is a great opportunity to give an honest evaluation of R/D advancement. Lee spent some time with my #002 Sasquatch about 4 years ago if i remember right.

What do you think of the take down model Lee? I know the thumb ledge was a bit low for you on that riser, but the limbs have come a long way in the last few years in overall performance... i'm curious what your take on the newer model is.

Kirk

Kirk,

I am extremely impressed with this bow!  Much further along than the one I tested a few years ago, and I liked that one!

Took some video of Dave shooting:

 (http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy355/fotoguy58/th_MVI_0981.jpg) (http://s807.photobucket.com/albums/yy355/fotoguy58/?action=view¤t=MVI_0981.mp4)

some more video:

 (http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy355/fotoguy58/th_MVI_0973.jpg) (http://s807.photobucket.com/albums/yy355/fotoguy58/?action=view¤t=MVI_0973.mp4)

Lee,

Shame on you...publishing that language video on a public forum!    :rolleyes:    :saywhat:    

Ok...well, Lee was up... good of you to come up and visit, Lee....

Of course, you're out of the Will since you shot better groups than I did, with MY new bow! That's it... OUT of the Will!    :knothead:   :)

Someone earlier wanted to see the bow in hand.

This is my large, fat grip "go to" bow that I've been shooting without Kirk's grip adjustments at full draw.

You can see what Kirk referred to in his earlier posted clip about my hand rolling up over the shelf:
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Big%20foot/P8210117-1.jpg)

The next shot, by comparison is Kirk's riser on the Sas... and you can see how with the same wrist rotation, my knuckle is AWAY from the riser shelf:
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Big%20foot/P8210119-1.jpg)

After a wee bit of judicious "orange stick" fingernail emery board work on 3 nocks, this is the result after shooting a bit more today... And it was back at about 22-23 yards!
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm292/DavidLandis/Big%20foot/P8210125-2.jpg)

:archer2:   I can see you having fun for quite a while Doc. Bout time you got some enjoyment. Looks like your alignment really improves with the new bow. Great job Kirk!

Shaping that thumb pad at the right angle with a wee bit of flat spot on it really makes a difference for a consistant location, doesn't it Dave?

Now look at the location of your thumb in the lower photo compare to the top one. It's a bit lower than a standard grip, and some won't care for it, but I'd say we got you fixed up there.   :thumbsup:

Kirk, That is an awsome job you did on that grip. Congratulations on it.

Godbless, Steve

Well Doc looks like the deer are in trouble,good luck.

I tried to "settle into" both bows when I pulled them back to full draw sans arrow (Lee would let me use an arrow...can't understand that!)  :)

It almost appears in the top pic of my "other" bow that the shelf is even angled forward instead of level...but that could just be me without an arrow on it or the angle of the pic...

The shelf is above and away from my knuckle and yes, the thumb is noticeable in it's different location. Surely does seem to work!   :thumbsup:    :notworthy:    :D

I got to meet Kirk at Baltimore this year. Top notch guy for sure!!!

So...Ed...you're typing.   :bigsmyl:

QuoteOriginally posted by Sixby:
Kirk, That is an awsome job you did on that grip. Congratulations on it.

Godbless, Steve

This one was rather challenging Steve. I'm really glad i had an opportunity to get some time to watch Doc shoot several different bows and get some film. This old boy has paws on him like a bear.   :scared:   very similar to your paws bro...   :biglaugh:

He had a couple different risers at Baltimore that were very different in shape, both large and small circumference at the throat, and one had a huge palm swell and was very wide through the width of the throat.... i even had him draw my bow a few times watching his rotation and vertical wrist angle....

After our time together Doc asked me what i thought he needed in a grip to fit him well, and i told him flat out i didn't know yet, and  I'd need to study the video before determining that.

my first thought was extra width in the base of the grip, with a larger palm swell, with about 5 degrees more rotation..... the problem with doing that was it was putting the heel pressure off center too much and pushing the bow to the right upon release, instead of straight forward....

after tinkering around some with a mock up riser i finally found the right angles that kept the thumb pad pressure in line and allowed his natural wrist rotation without putting too much down pressure on the thumb ledge. i had to offset the forefinger depth to pull it off and go a wee bit higher with the shelf. i didn't do a large palm swell because i honestly think that was part of Doc's problem getting too much pressure offset to the left.

I thought you might appreciate that Steve. kirk

Very well thought out and wonderfully executed Kirk. I don't think I've ever read a thread with as much detailed information as this.

Congratulations Doc!!!

I will be stalking your posts and watching to see how your relationship build with your Bigfoot  :)

 :campfire:

Kip,

You sayin I got big FEET?    :)        :laughing:    

Thanks.  I wanted folks to get to see what I've gone thru in the past, what frustration I've had to find the right riser/grip, and the luck in finding someone who understood and knew HOW to diagnose and treat the issue.  I can't be the only person out there who struggles with standard type grips... maybe others will find some direction!

I know that Kirk couldn't have made much money and likely, with the time spent in analysis and mock ups and my pestering, LOST money on this deal...

Kirk, my paws ain't THAT BIG...I got wide and deep palms and short fingers, nose, toes, n'  ...      :rolleyes:  

As I've said often, I'm sure there are many incredible bowyers out there... and the more that exist, the more "LUCK" it takes to find the right mix of talent and personality to work with your individual needs.

First,I got a beautiful and SWEET bow..., that really feels like it likes my hand... and I've not even STARTED to wring out it's potential yet...and, second, Kirk still talks to me! That is a double bonus!

He and I can both light up like throwing a lit match in a bag of sparklers, but I found his heart for building a truly custom bow and meet each customer's specific needs, to bring us together and work well together.

Communication can sometimes be a very fragile thing...     :eek:

All sounds and looks great Dave! I wish i could see that when you come up this weekend but alas I had to go back to school. Hopefully I'll get back and you'll get up sometime and i can see you make some meat!

Caleb

What Kirk didn't mention in his observation is that when I shoot, no matter how I hold my bow(s)or my shoulder or grip...the bow(s)would "recoil" down and to the right to the 5:00 position...

I figured it was just a weak shoulder or something... You saw Lee's quick couple of videos. the bow is NO LONGER jumping down and to the right!

Kirk went into detail above about how the extra width and palm swell I felt was needed, on close examination of my shooting...and shoot different dimension risers I have, all pointed to my putting too much, how did he say it was putting the heel pressure off center too much and pushing the bow to the right upon release, instead of straight forward....[/b]

I forget honestly what Kirk told me up front he charges for "custom grip design" but in honest retrospect, given the time and effort he puts into it... it's one incredible deal right there!

Anyone who is particular with grip issues, or has some sense they MIGHT have a challenge, you might consider getting on Kirk's waiting list.  You give him the videos he wants, from angles he requests, hand tracing...you can count on being happy---like me and all the rest!

Everyone I contacted who had experience with Kirk's grip work, told me not to worry, this guy was the real deal..., but hell, I was still wondering. It's only natural. But I did come to the sense early on that, with the level of effort that he was investing,...if he COULD NOT get my grip issue worked out...it could NOT be fixed by anyone else either!

I've not learned all this svelt pretty woman has to teach me, but I know I'm in good hands to let her "lead" for the next few dances!     :goldtooth:    

Caleb,
Good to see you on here. Sorry to miss you li'l buddy...but school is important. We will get together thru the season when I get up and you're home... Count on it...

Hey Dave, I appreciate all the high praise, but i gotta tel you this straight out. You've got more time in to typing your post here than i did shaping your grip....    :readit:    

I do charge $75.00 to shape a grip to a customers specs. This covers my time looking at photos and determining the right angles, and checking the dimensions as i go. Video isn't necessary at all in most cases, but it is always better than still photos....

The actual time taken to shape the grip itself takes no longer than any other risers i shape..... So please quit worrying about me making ends meet here, and enjoy the consistency that custom grip is going to give you.

Something else i should mention here. i only charge for a custom grip shape if I'm doing something to specifications. If a customer picks out a photo on my web site of a riser style, tells me he wants a medium high grip & gives me a circumference at the throat they prefer. I don't consider that a custom grip if it's within the 4.75" to 5.25" range. Something larger or smaller than that may require a thicker riser, or looking at extra reinforcement options for a real small grip. That may kick it into a custom grip category depending on type of wood used in the riser and poundage.

For you guys interested that don't mind looking at my ugly mug, I've attached some video of what goes into shaping these risers. I do a lot of these videos to help out guys that are novice bowyer's just getting started.


Just click on the photo's below to start the film.

  (http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bow%20building/Shop%20Video%202011/th_Risershape1.jpg) (http://s171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bow%20building/Shop%20Video%202011/?action=view¤t=Risershape1.mp4)


  (http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bow%20building/Shop%20Video%202011/th_Riser2.jpg) (http://s171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bow%20building/Shop%20Video%202011/?action=view¤t=Riser2.mp4)


  (http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bow%20building/Shop%20Video%202011/th_Riser3.jpg) (http://s171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bow%20building/Shop%20Video%202011/?action=view¤t=Riser3.mp4)


  (http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bow%20building/Shop%20Video%202011/th_riser4.jpg) (http://s171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bow%20building/Shop%20Video%202011/?action=view¤t=riser4.mp4)

Great videos Kirk.  Thanks for taking me along.

Thanks for the reassurances, Kirk.

I guess given the time just in communication back and forth, then what I KNEW you had to have put into reviewing footage... that I KNOWyou put in a good bit of time---before the shaping.

One thing for sure, once the gauntlet was thrown to get me a grip that fit, you made it so!

All I know is all the jabbering I've done in the past about bows, didn't get me something that fit like you did.  Thank you!

Good to read that most people's preferences don't involve what my goofy situation required. I still appreciate your help and the result! Whaoo!

I got some new strings coming with smaller serving to fit my GT nocks.

While I was away, I let a few folks with shorter draws shoot my SAS with my and their arrows.

Then watchin theirs fly, I had to TRY them myself.

I'm shooting .400 spine GT's loaded up. They were shooting .500 spine GTs with 50% lighter inserts and the same weight head...

Dangnabit! They flew better, tight nocks and all, than mine...

Mine show the slightest "wobble" out around 15 yards away... then hit where I want...their shafts flew dead nuts!

Here we go... C'mon strings!!    :bigsmyl:

Well all of this happened while I was out hunting, but it looks like things are coming together!

Doc, she looks like a million bucks! It was great to see Kirk's analysis of your hand position and to see how he worked the grip for you in that video. This is why it really wouldn't do you (or anyone) any good to shoot my viking sized grip and 32" draw limbs. I bet I couldn't shoot your bow anywhere near as good as I could shoot mine!

Mike, I wish I would have had mine at Elm Hall for you to see but I was on that osage selfbow kick. (It's OK, I'm pleading temporary insanity.) I've got over 10k arrows on my Sas now and it still looks great and is shooting the same FPS it was when it came out of the box.
Next Elm Hall mine will be over a year old    :smileystooges:  

Not to hijack, but I've got a little personal celebration for me tonight! I outshot my all time best round by 14 points tonight with my Sas! At one point I hit 3 Xes in a row and got a loud verbal ribbing from the range owner. At that point all the guys with wheels stopped shooting and watched me drill the 4th bullseye. Of course it got creepy quiet as I loaded my last arrow and I shot it way right into the 3 ring. Still, 23 out of 25 was another personal best too!
  :archer2:  
Thom

Thanks for the comments, Thom.

And sharing such a coup as you had on the range, for any stickbow, well, that is pretty amazing and not hijacking a thread at all!

I loved the part about it getting creepy quiet when the wheelboys were watching intently...

Amazing feat with just you and a stick and string, eh?! Kudos to you--- and the bow!

Dave,

Thanks for the heads up about this thread. Reading it helped me kill a half hour here at work. LOL

Glad you finally found one that fits. As most people say, including me, "It's all about the grip". You could shoot a broomstick accurately if you just had the right grip on it.

Beautiful bow and I'm sorry I won't see it in person next week, but I definately want to shoot it next time.

I'm happy for you..............maybe now you won't be spending quite so much time on the wrong side of the target!

Dave

QuoteOriginally posted by Red Beastmaster:
Dave,

.......maybe now you won't be spending quite so much time on the wrong side of the target!

Dave

Won't that be special[/i]   :jumper:

Hey there Dave,

Sorry this took so long.   :rolleyes:  

But I found the limb lay up photo's for a triple carbon lay up i did for Lyonel. Your's is identical except the center lam (the red stripe) is uni-weft material instead of carbon.

There are 11 lamination's in your limb there counting the clear glass on belly and back.

(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Doc%20Noc%20Sas/IMAG0062.jpg)

(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202012/Doc%20Noc%20Sas/IMAG0061.jpg)

OMGosh! The more pics of the build I see, the more amazed I am at these "simple sticks and strings"

I have a video from the Fred Bear Theater and the ending of it is a tour of the plant and you get to see bows built...

Not quite the effort and technology as there is now.

Thanks, Kirk. I didn't see that before... just amazing! 11 laminations... Someone asked me what that red line stuff was...Uni-Weft.

No flippin idea what it is, but I can impress the hellouta them and pretend I know!

Uniweft is a glass combination of cross weave and liniar glass. It gives a bow limb a lot of horizontal or torsional stability. The only thing that does any better is cross weave carbon combination and only because it is a tad bit lighter in physical weight. Kirk uses one or another in most of his bows. I have never seen a limb twist when it is used ., God bless you all, Steve

Thanks, Steve...

Kirk showed he used some bias carbon as well...

All very intriguing to me...all that goes into a simple "stick and string" by you guys who really know this stuff!

Amazing!

Thanks... Now I can actually talk some "stuff" about my lams and limbs! Whooie! Kirk probably told me all that along the way, but shoot... I was stoned just looking at how purdy the blooming thing was unfolding...a lot of choice data went thru my ears/eyes and never stuck!

Actually.... i haven't used the Uni-Weft in all of my limb designs. But the added torsional stability it gives you is excellent on both recurve limbs and the narrow profile hybrid designs.

Dave.... these are NOT "simple sticks and strings".

There was something else you asked me if i had photos of that i can't remember. Help me out here Dave....

KIrk,

I read thru from page 5 forward and all our recent emails...

I can't find where I asked for anything particular that you didn't come forth with pictures and/or explanations.

You've provided me with great pictures of the bow throughout it's development, birth and then graduation into a shooting machine!

Your pictures are so much better than my own, I just used yours!

I got it!!!!  It was the Cat whisker installation you asked about.  I found it in one of our last emails when i was setting the bow up....

here ya go brutha....

http://youtu.be/ohRLWa75MnY

Great thread!  This is what "custom" is all about.  

Your bow turned out great and I really appreciate Kirks willingness to share his insights into bows and bow building.

Doh...I told you, Kirk I got half-heimers. I remember asking for that and suggesting maybe you'd share it... but...doh.  :)   Thanks!

EZ keep...

Yeah..it's a sweetheart of a bow... a present to me and my hand!

I guess truth be told, although it wasn't much left after the nursing home got 99% of Dad's money, what little came my way, likely allowed me to add a few "upgrades" along the way.

I really recommend getting a deposit in, then paying ahead as you can over time while you wait for your number to come up... best advice someone gave me!!!

As Kirk's waiting list continues to grow (and rightfully so) one can save pennies, or like I did, ride around stealing recycling cans from bins before trash men got them and...   :bigsmyl: