I posted this in the Michigan Longbow section, but would like to get opinions from others outside my state as well. My question would be: do compounds belong in an "Introduction to Archery" class?
So, a few weeks ago my wife expressed interest in learning traditional archery. I was and am very excited! Well, I got an email from the Michigan DNR that they would be offering an "Introduction to Archery" class for women in Saginaw. I thought this sounded great, and forwarded the email to my wife. She agreed it sounded like a great way to learn the basics. The class is going on this evening from 6-9pm.
She texted me as the class was starting...COMPOUNDS!!! How is that possibly INTRODUCTION to archery? I am so frustrated to think that women looking for a start in archery are being pushed towards mechanical bows, and being told that is archery!
Heck, a lot of the class (ages 10 and up) were possibly piqued by the recent examples of archery in the movies and the Olympics...all traditional archery.
I left it up to her whether to stay at the class. She texted that they "dug up" a traditional bow. If she stays I'll be proud of her for sticking it out, even though she'll be the odd one out.
Does anyone think an "Intro" class should be trad not wheels?
Boy Scouts in our area has converted to compounds. This may be a national trend for them, not sure. Ohio DNR uses wheels for their intro classes too. Reality is this is how many start. My first bow was wheeled. It brought me to trad so to speak.
I don't think they are out of line by starting folks on compounds. I think the intent behind an introductory class should be to get the students interested in the sport. With good instruction most folks are able to shoot very respectable groups on their first day with a wheel bow. These kind of results are what makes folks take the step from "interested" to invested. Some will eventually make the cross-over to tradtional bows but most will stick with the wheels. Either way it's a good outreach tool to the non-bowhunting community and the methods don't really rub me the wrong way.
They don't know any better Pokerdaddy. Heck,just ask one of the 40 million deer in our herd count from the dnr! By there counting,a deer should be standing right next to you!! Ha! I ramble. I apologize,rat'
Thanks for the feedback. My kneejerk reaction was disbelief, but I guess there's some method to the madness.
ya I know how they do that "scientific" deer count , my brotherinlaw works for a Parks and Rec sometimes when he travels to an access site they tell him to write down & count every deer he sees to and from the jobsite! If he counts say 6 deer on the way and the same 6 on the way back thats 12 differant deer! Kind of like the unemployment #s they never add up! LOL
What agtex42 said. It could be worse, they could have used Xbows. It's about bringing more people into the sport of bowhunting. My personal preference has been stickbows for the last twenty years. I arrived there because the other methods were no longer a challenge. I started with a stick as a teenager, went to compounds in the mid 70's and back to sticks twenty years later. Never got hung up on the "my way is the only way" thing.
I agree with agetex42.
There's nothing wrong with beginning with a compound. Heck, if it weren't for the compound, I doubt I'd be shooting a longbow today. Looking back, I sure wish I would have started with a traditional bow, but I don't regret my compound days - had a lot of fun, learned the skills of bowhunting, and killed enough deer to make me want to up the challenge.
Introduction to Archery= learning about shooting bows. It dosen't say stick bows just archery. Nothing wrong with compounds.
Maybe they need someone to teach about stick bows, just a thought.
If it gives them confidence great. I don't have a problem with people using compounds but they do get on my nerves talking about how they are die hard bow hunter. Its when they say that that it gets me a little ticked off
Then again if they like shooting wheelie bows and stick with it that is just more people that are going to strike down the antis when it comes to archery and hunting.
OK, I was starting to come around, till I got the after class report. When my wife insisted on a longbow or leaving, they "dug up" a longbow. The DNR instructor made the following comments, "why would you want to shoot one of those", "I hope you don't plan on ever hunting...I don't even want to get into the ethics", and "you'll never be able to hit the target with one of those."
I can't help but wonder if your "compound" introductory bow is a Genesis.
Folks, yes, they have wheels on them BUT they shoot more like our equipment than like C bows. They have a draw weight that runs from essentially 0 to 20# they DO NOT HAVE A LET OFF AND NO WALL. They are shot with fingers, no sights, stabilizers, etc.
For general classes where one bow fits most all they are a GREAT choice. If you are serious about having folks take up archery, then give them the chance to take up archery. The students that have learned on the Genesis are MUCH more at home with trad equipment than with C bows and all the associated "stuff."
For an "open" program it makes far more sense to use a bow that can be adjusted to anyone, than to have problems trying to match bow length, draw weight, and arrow length to each student. If you are so hardcore "Trad" that you cannot fathom a wheel on the end of the bow, then stay away from public programs or be sure the student you send already has an appropriate bow with them.
I too disagree with a "full up" compound as a learning bow but the Genesis is NOT THAT!!! This topic comes up from time to time and I absolutely think it is the BEST bow for learning EVER DEVELOPED!!! There may be other better bows than the Genesis but in over 50 years of instructing (all trad) I haven't seen it!
Sorry for the rant, and if the program isn't using the Genesis, then disregard all the above, but I bet they are.
Arne
Pokerdaddy,
Your last post came in while I was still ranting :bigsmyl:
I stand by my statements above, but would really get in the face of the DNR person that made that last statement. There is education needed on both sides.
Arne
Compounds are not the devils weapon. 90 percent of the people that want to bow hunt do not have the time to develop the skills to be effective stick bow hunters. Compounds do require practice but not the amount of dedication it takes to become and stay proficient as a stick bow.
I have taken deer with longbows, homemade selfbows and recurves. But I had to go back to a wheeled bow for awhile. For 10 years I shot everyday. Then as I got older my free time got less. I slowly over years quit shooting enough and I was no longer accurate enough to hunt with a stick bow. I picked up a bow that allowed me to hunt effectively.
I used to think doing it the hard way was the only way to go. But there are times when being a more effective harvester is more important.
They use the Genesis here in KS introduction.
Gentlemen, I wish to offer a slight retraction. After reading moebow's posts I asked my wife and they were shooting Genesis bows. I apologize for my overreacting. I stand by my disdain for the comments made by the instructor, but I understand the use of the Genesis.
I think I was especially defensive as I was the one who suggested the course in the first place, and felt responsible for her having a fun, effective introduction.
Thank you for all your comments, and for educating me on some of the introductory courses out there.
Pokerdaddy,
We should all " stand by my disdain for the comments made by the instructor" !!!!!!
:clapper: :clapper:
Arne
Just curious how you know that "90 per cent of the people who want to bow hunt do not have the time to develop the skills to be effective stick bow hunters." In fact after thinking about it, just how much time does it take?
I can guarantee you that not a single Park and Rec employee within the DNR offers input on deer count.
Also, all of the bows that the DNR uses for the archery classes have been supplied with grant funding my Mr. MacPherson of Mathews Archery. All genesis bows, where one bow can be used by a 4yo up to an adult. Cost benefit wise, it's better that way. They don't use sights or releases. They use tabs/gloves and all of the bows are setup with an integrated NAP Centerest.
Remember, these classes are to get first timers into the sport. Compounds easily make up 95% of the archery market and I'd wager that most of us started out with wheels...I know I did.
I'd also be interested in the name of the individual who made those comments about the use of a longbow. I'm interested to know where the introductory class was held and who the instructor was. I know a few times they use volunteers as well as the PE teachers that the DNR has trained to implement the NASP programs in the schools. I have the ability to offer input on this to the people who can make changes. However if I don't have valid specifics, the complaint carries no weight.
Well, I'm off to climb in my black helicopter and tranq some mountain lions in MN and transplant them in Jackson Co.
Although I love traditional archery, I understand we are in the minority and many people view traditional bows as anitiquated. I would full on expect a beginning archery class offered to the public to use compound bows unless stated otherwise. Compounds are what the vast majority of people use these days, and they have all of the modern mechanical advancements that kind of go along with technology and everything else that is made easier and more efficient these days. I don't fault anyone for taking advantage of what modern bows have to offer, and I would think most classes would want to start people off on what 'most' people will end up shooting (unless crossbows continue to take over).
That being said, does anyone know of any formal training offered in Michigan or anywhere else that caters specifically to traditional archery? I know the youth JOAD classes use recurves with sights. I wonder if the USA Archery adult programs use recurves. I've seen advertisements from USA Archery about adult classes, but I've never seen an ad for an actual class being offered locally.
Good post Bryan. It's always good to take a deep breath before responding. I'm pleased to hear the DNR is offering archery classes of any type.
if a youngster wants to learn anything about any type of archery today, TEACH THEM!!!!!!!! Dont try to make someone shoot a stick if they have no interest in the sport, just let them shoot..
Pokerdaddy: If the instructor indeed made those comments to your wife, he is unfit to each an archery course for he obviously knows very little about archery.
I understand them using using mechanical arrow launchers to introduce folks to "archery". They're readily available, inexpensive and easy to learn on. But if the instructor is so ignorant of and/or biased against traditional bows, he/she really shouldn't be teaching the course.
The only way you can weed out such idiots is to speak up. Good luck.
I second Orions comments to the fullest...
I will also say, that a trip to any outdoor store will show you, the compound bow is now SECOND fiddle to the crossbow...If money was available, they would be teaching the class using crossbows.
As for the comments from the instructor, he was totally wrong and out of line. But in all honesty, how is he any different that a lot of biased trad shooters I see talk about how people shouldn't hunt with compounds and trad is the only way to go. To each their own.
If the instructor does not know or understand traditional archery then it is our job to educate him, not crucify him. In his uneducated mind a longbow may be a crude weapon that is inaccurate and has little killing efficiency. In his hands it may in fact be inaccurate. That is why it is important to show him what a little skill can do with a longbow. If you get in his face and tell him how stupid he is he will only dig in and defend his self. Instead offer to do a demonstration at the class. At least explain the workings of a traditional bow and how to become effective with it. Shunning the class or the instructor will not do anyone any good.
Bill
What you are not taking into account is Trad archers are a very small part of American archery today. I know that the NASP program gets bows from sponsors and they happen to be compound manufacturers. It will take a trad bow sponsor to step up to change what is used in our starting archery programs.
I do think however they should have a trad instructor on hand for those wanting to bring their own trad bows. Beware though if you bring this up be prepared to accept a new job.
Hawken1911,
Our club Land O Lakes Bowmen in Fenton teaches JOAD. We provide recurve bows for those that don't have their own bow. Our shooting instruction sessions are not reserved for youth only and the club has adult recurves we offer for that use.
Show up to the training and give the instructor some education about traditional archery. Just because he is certified does not mean he knows everything. If he still shows that attitude ask him who is in charge and file a complaint.
Need to correct my post...did my homework and need to clarify that both local BSA and Ohio DNR use Genesis bows. I apologize for this mis-representation.
For what it's worth (approx $0.02) my opinion is any ethical, respectful hunter we put in the field is a good thing regardless of gear choice.
I started with wheels and switched. My cousin is now shooting both and starting to tilt toward trad, also having started with wheels. His daughter, who only shoots target archery is now wanting a recurve to shoot with instead of her wheels.
Several years ago, I sat in on a meeting with the Michigan Natural resource commission committee members when the lead person from the NASP presented to them (I believe the man was from Kentucky). His presentation was very informative and he discussed the use of the Genesis bow, fiberglass full length arrows and the backstops, ect. Everything was designed around uniformity and safety. Two interesting things I took away from the program, one of which made sense as to why the game commissions were interested in a 'generic archery' program. One, the classroom teachers who had the kids after the archery program in their gym class noted the students were more attentive and respectful than other days-attributable to the strict structure of the program while having fun. Second, many of the students went on to acquire their own equipment and then showed an interest in hunting-the reason for game departments being vested in the program.
So where does this come into play for traditional archery/bowhunting??? Well, as many of you know, a lot of traditional archers come from the ranks of compound bow shooters, so it's all part of the trickle down theory-and as in business, you never know where your next customer may come from, so respect the potential customer and those volunteering to teach them who in this case could be the teacher/student of such a program.
For a lot of people it would be unethical to hunt with a trad bow. Their lifestyle by neccssity or choice does not allow them to shoot and practice enough to really be proficient. i have a friend I have tried to convert, but he does not have the time in his life to shoot daily. He can pick up his wheels and hit a quarter at 50 yards after a few minutes of practice. For him it is more ethical to hunt with the compound. I don't think the instructor has met enough trad archers to have a different opinion.
It is what it is................let's face it they have to offer what most people want and what they are capable of teaching.
I'm sure not all of us here started with traditional bows either, so I don't see a problem with it. It would be nice if they would show people what the difference is between compounds and traditional. That way they let the shooters decide which interests them more.
Back in the 60's my mother taught archery in some of the grade schools in the Public Schools and in the 70's I taught archery in adult education courses all using non-mechanical equipment(traditional equipment).
This has all gone by the wayside much like the pencil and paper has been taken over by the computer.
It all starts at home and parents need to step up and introduce their children to the old ways. Of course thats if the parents know the "old ways" . I was fortunate enough to be brought up in an archery rich environment in the 60's and passed what "little" I know on to my son and grandkids.
To pokerdaddy, I would suggest checking with local clubs for help. I am sure someone out there would enjoy teaching archery.
If the projectile has feathers/vanes it is ARCHERY. Choosing to hunt with traditional gear is a choice and the next guys choice should be respected. If you choose a horse and buggy for your mode of transportation don't be mad at me for having a Silverado.
Here in CO my closest friend has introduced the NASP program to many schools. If it wasn't for the support of the program many thousands of kids would never have been introduced to the sport. To the young, a bow is a bow...and now that their interest has been tweaked, its our job to show them the other side of archery. For many of us the move from trad to compound and back to trad is a progression of thought and satisfaction in what we use. Just as in rifle hunting where (most of us) we move through the various layers of maturity, so is it with young archers. NASP, Hunger Games, the Olympics...folks, we have the attention of a large audience of new shooters right now. Lets take advantage of this and support any program that puts any bow in their hands!
We traditionalists will always be the minority akin to an ember being carefully carried to start another fire. Examples of success and excellence like Jerry Gowen's hunting proficiency posted by Mike Yancey, Guru's young son Cade pushing himself to higher standards, the Wensel/Mitten productions standing in stark contrast to modern horn porn television, and many many more are the air that breathes it life. If we wrap the ember too tightly with an elitist's perspective we miss the chance to start another fire. At some point each of us will have the opportunity to introduce an archer to a traditional bow and the outcome will mostly be determined more by our sense of inclusion.
Pokerdaddy, I understand your sentiment because recently I checked into the NASP program here in Wisconsin and saw that they all use Genesis bows, so I too am not sure how my daughter Kate with her longbow is going to fit in.
I am the Hunter Recruitment and Retention Coordinator for the MN Department of Natural Resources.
We started our Archery in the Schools Program in 2004. Since that time we, and our NGO partners have invested significant funding to train teachers and provide grants to schools interested in starting a program.
Today we approaching 400 schools and 160,000 students shooting archery as part of their school curriculum.
While this is great and NASP has done more for goodwill towards archery than anything in the history of the sport if this is all we do, we will be missing an incredible opportunity to increase interest in archery and bowhunting.
To really maximize the potential of this opportunity we need the continued support of existing bowhunters, bowhunting organizations, and archery clubs. Most importantly, we need the buy in from their members.
These folks have to help us, help all these new to archery folks (NASP youth and others) continue their archery and possibly bowhunting journey.
This will require all of us to sacrifice some of our own time, including hunting time, and energy.
Once you get past the initial Awareness, Interest, and Trial stages of the recruitment process in which programs like NASP or the various "Learn to Hunt" or "Mentored Hunts" that pretty much all states are carrying out, the work of recruiting a person to hunting becomes a one-on-one, time intensive process that often takes several years of effort.
And even then if the new hunter does not go back home to a social support network that is supportive of their interest in hunting, they still might not stick with the activity.
In essence we need to try and create a surrogate for the recruitment process and social support system that many of us went through at the elbow of our father or friend as part of a family or culture of hunters.
If anyone wants to gain a better understanding of recruitment and retention process and the research related to this topic see this link:
http://www.responsivemanagement.com/download/reports/Future_Hunting_Shooting_Report.pdf
Have a great weekend.
Bravo, JCJ! :clapper: