Trad Gang

Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: yankeevol on August 15, 2012, 11:04:00 AM

Title: Penetration observation
Post by: yankeevol on August 15, 2012, 11:04:00 AM
Was shooting my Beman MFX classic 600s last night out of a 45# Toelke Whip into brand new high density foam target (I have access to lots of upholstery supplies). The arrows were all identical with the only variation being the tip:

Arrow 1: 125 grain field point
Arrow 2: 125 grain muzzy phantom 4 blade
Arrow 3: 105 grain muzzy phantom 2 blade (4 blade without the bleeder)

After dozens of shots and swapping tips across 8 identical arrows I made two primary observations:

1. The field point consistently penetrated 6 inches less than either one of the broadheads.
2. The 4 blade and 2 blade were very close but the 4 blade consistently penetrated a bit (less than an inch) deeper than the 2 blade

I was a little surprised, but just another data point.
Title: Re: Penetration observation
Post by: cbCrow on August 15, 2012, 11:15:00 AM
I did a similar test quite a few years ago but used a 2 blade and a 3 blade snuffer. My results followed yours in that the difference in penetration between the two blades was of very little consequence. The only difference between our evaluations is you used carbons while I used aluminum with the same conclusions.
Title: Re: Penetration observation
Post by: Terry Green on August 15, 2012, 11:25:00 AM
Just curious....what were you 'surprised' at?
Title: Re: Penetration observation
Post by: David Mitchell on August 15, 2012, 11:46:00 AM
Hmmm, that's what I would have expected.
Title: Re: Penetration observation
Post by: bigbadjon on August 15, 2012, 11:55:00 AM
My observation has supported that 2 blades out penetrate 4 blades.I am also using phantoms.
Title: Re: Penetration observation
Post by: widow sax on August 15, 2012, 12:03:00 PM
I did the same test but I used 1/4 inch luwan plywood in front or in back of foam to simulate a rib. I tested 2, 3 and 4 blades. My results were that the 4 blade did the worst and the 2 and 3 blade were a tie. I put the plywood on back side to make it like you missed a rib on entrance but hit one on exit the 3 blade was hands down the winner. One thing I thought was the three blade made a hole in the foam and had less friction on the shaft verses a slit made by the 2 blade. Now that being said foam does not act like tissue witch does not have the same affect on arrow drag like foam. I still use 3 blades (Woodsman Elite)for everything loveum.     Widow
Title: Re: Penetration observation
Post by: yankeevol on August 15, 2012, 01:02:00 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
Just curious....what were you 'surprised' at?
Expected slightly more penetration from the 2 blade.
Title: Re: Penetration observation
Post by: Jeff Strubberg on August 15, 2012, 01:14:00 PM
With the 2 blade being slightly lighter than the 4 blade, those are exactly the results I would have expected.
Title: Re: Penetration observation
Post by: yankeevol on August 15, 2012, 01:24:00 PM
I only posted the observation because of the seemingly endless number of recommendations to use a 2 blade from lighter bows for "better penetration". My observation didn't produce any evidence to support those recommendations. Just another data point.
Title: Re: Penetration observation
Post by: Terry Green on August 15, 2012, 01:55:00 PM
yankeevol .......yeah...I've even found that 3 blades, like the WW, will out penetrate some 2 blade heads on 4 different mediums.
Title: Re: Penetration observation
Post by: ChrisM on August 15, 2012, 02:00:00 PM
In a layered target that uses friction on the shaft to stop the arrow a 3 or 4 blade head will cut a looser channel that a two blade will.  If this transfers to animals I have no idea.
Title: Re: Penetration observation
Post by: TxAg on August 15, 2012, 02:24:00 PM
Because I'm curious, and because I also shoot a 45# Whip...would you mind sharing your arrow set up?
Title: Re: Penetration observation
Post by: yankeevol on August 15, 2012, 02:39:00 PM
29" Beman MFX 600
3 5.5" right wing helical, no dip/wraps
75 grain insert
broadhead adapter rings (2 grains)
fairly thick leather strike plate (nearly 1/8")
Title: Re: Penetration observation
Post by: TxAg on August 15, 2012, 02:42:00 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by yankeevol:
29" Beman MFX 600
3 5.5" right wing helical, no dip/wraps
75 grain insert
broadhead adapter rings (2 grains)
fairly thick leather strike plate (nearly 1/8")
I shot the same combo (just 30.5") for a while. Worked well.

I stuck a 1.5" aluminum footingon there and those arrows were indestructible.
Title: Re: Penetration observation
Post by: JamesKerr on August 15, 2012, 02:43:00 PM
On targets or soft flesh such as muscle and tendons just about any well designed cut on contact broadhead should penetrate similarly to another one. The big difference is when you hit bone. When bone is encountered a 2 blade should and almost always will penetrate better than a 3 or 4 blade broadhead. There are a few exceptions to this rule however. For instance Andy Ivy (tradtusker) has been having great results with the 3 blade VPA's on water buffalo.
Title: Re: Penetration observation
Post by: David Mitchell on August 15, 2012, 02:44:00 PM
Four blades open the entry hole for more penetration--so thought Fred Bear.  That's why the Bear bleeder was made to snap off easily after opening a bigger entry hole then function as a 2 blade....but then, what did he know about killing stuff with a bow?  :bigsmyl:
Title: Re: Penetration observation
Post by: Kamm1004 on August 15, 2012, 03:01:00 PM
I didn't believe it when I heard it so I experimented myself. Two blade and four blade penetrate very well. I was extremely surprised to find that four blade penetrates better than three blade every time I tested it.
Title: Re: Penetration observation
Post by: Glunt on August 15, 2012, 03:32:00 PM
I think shaft pinch is a big factor in foam targets.  I would expect a 4 blade to have the least pinch.
Title: Re: Penetration observation
Post by: Brock on August 15, 2012, 03:51:00 PM
I think your multiblade did better because the foam was squeezing the head and shaft and the multiblade may relieve some of the shaft pressure by its cut.  when shooting into living animals the blood and fluids will act as lubricant so I do not think this is apples to apples....

I use two blades...but on occasion I will use snuffers...I dont worry too much about anything but keeping them sharp, and hitting where I am aiming.
Title: Re: Penetration observation
Post by: rastaman on August 15, 2012, 03:59:00 PM
i shoot 48lbs @ 27 inches..on deer and hogs that i have shot, i have used 2 blade magnus stingers, 2 blade silverflames, 3 blade vpa terminators, and 4 blade steelforce (actually 2 with a bleeder). They all penetrate equally well, but they are all scary sharp.  A scary sharp broadhead will penetrate all the animals we hunt here as long as your arrow is tuned and you put the arrow where it is supposed to be.  i haven't tested them on other mediums though..         ;)
Title: Re: Penetration observation
Post by: rastaman on August 15, 2012, 04:04:00 PM
Broadhead penetration thread (http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000099)

And this is still one of the best answers ever posted here as to how to enhance penetration by a broadhead.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Penetration observation
Post by: Kamm1004 on August 15, 2012, 04:17:00 PM
I didn't believe it when I heard it so I experimented myself. Two blade and four blade penetrate very well. I was extremely surprised to find that four blade penetrates better than three blade every time I tested it.
Title: Re: Penetration observation
Post by: yankeevol on August 15, 2012, 04:35:00 PM
The scope of my observation was intended to be very narrow - all other variables being held constant, 4 blades consistently out penetrated 2 blades in this circumstance.

I wasn't really intending to draw any other conclusions. I know, however, that it is very common in many other threads for people to recommend using 2 blades over 4 blades for light weight bows. Personally, I like data, and the more the better.
Title: Re: Penetration observation
Post by: yankeevol on August 16, 2012, 02:39:00 PM
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
Just curious....what were you 'surprised' at?
Expected slightly more penetration from the 2 blade.
Title: Re: Penetration observation
Post by: straight_arrow on August 16, 2012, 07:57:00 PM
Results seem pretty predictable>