I'm your classic "tinhorn". Deadly with about anything, but more in the dangerous category when it relates to trad tackle.
Thanks to this site I have enjoyed at least a dozen different bows now and have gained more resources about the sport than ever imagined.
Maybe the "D" bow virus is creeping in, but through my journey I have realized, personally, that 55# draw from a 56" bow just seems completely different than 55# from a 66" bow.
I know the weights on a scale have to be the same at 28", but it appears the energy required to get to 28" is just plain different...I can't imagine this is unique to me as my arms and shoulders over time on the range do all the talking. Of course this could be explained by physics, but not by me...
So without thaving the blind or tree stand requirements up here I must say that I am gravitating to the smoother more forgiving longer bows.
As I learn more about the Hill style I question if the length of the bow is why you see so many Hill styles in the 70-90# range? Can one, generally speaking, go up in weight with a longer bow? Or is a duck a duck here?
As always, many thanks for your input.
~CB
I shoot a 60# A&H ACS that is 68" and have no trouble from a tree stand. There is something to be said of the shootablity of longer bows even in the high performance category.
No doubt in my mind that the longer bows pull easier. I hunt whitetails with a 64" "RedMan",5 lams of yew, 53@28. Would not want any additional weight on that bow. With that said, I easily shoot and hunt with 66" Hill's in the 55 to 57 pound range. I stay away from bows over 66" in length(68/70) because they do not readily fit in the cab of my truck. Sure would hate to be in a hurry and snap off a limb tip when closing a door. If you have time give Craig at HH Archery a call and ask him your question. He is a straight shooter and he wants you to be happy with your purchase.
CB, you are not alone. I was hung up on 58" as ideal (for me) for years. I hunt in thick stuff, blinds and tree stands, and just felt longer bows were too much trouble. Besides, short bows have been all the rage for a couple of years.
I had a 64" recurve pass through my hands a few years back that I shot extremely well. I sold it because of the length. I knew then, as I do now, that I shot it better, in part, because of the length; but I needed to continue on my quest for the best compact bow.
Needless to say, I've had some great 56-60" bows over the years but my accuracy/consistency would vary. More recently, I started taking a look at longer bows, mild R/D bows to be exact. Since that time I have experienced the same phenomenon you have.
Not only is my accuracy/consistency improved, I'm also noticeably more comfortable shooting higher weight and for much longer periods of time. No more shoulder aching or arthritis complications as I've previously had after long shooting sessions. I have sophmorically attributed this to a smoother draw/force curve - although I have no proof of that.
Whatever it is, I'm sold on it. I've just about completely converted to the longer-bow camp. There may be no scientifically definable difference but my shoulders FEEL it. I've also had to eat a little crow and admit that the longer bows are not as much of an inconvienience in the woods as I once thought. And ... these mild R/D bows are sooo quiet while being surprisingly quick. For me it is the way to go.
I hope I can remember this the next time I see a short temptation in the classifieds.
It's not rocket science, 50# bow 60" long has less mechanical advantage than a 50# bow 68" long. So a 57# bow at 70" long will feel like it's lighter to some degree. Personally I like longer bows!
CB, when talking Hill-style longbows, there has been some very interesting conversations over on the "HH" thread. Many believe that longer=smoother=better. Others maintain that there is a correllation between draw length=bow length=efficiency. My draw length is 26". A 66" longbow tillered for my draw weight at 26" is probably about right for me and I have two of them, with a third on the way. That said, about ten days ago, I had the opportunity to try a 68" Hill in a similar weight range and, Man, that bow pulled smooth and sweet!
I'm no expert, but I think the the traditional, low wrist grips on Hill style longbows contribute to the feeling that this type of bow will allow you an increase in draw weight. It typically encourages a shorter draw length and, I believe, the low wrist vs high wrist is simply a "stronger" hand position, allowing more draw weight.
Maybe some expert longbowmen will jump in soon and educate BOTH of us! Be well and good luck!
Jedimaster,
I sincerely appreciate your dialogue. You have my concurence 100%. As wonderful a place this is to share, learn and play it can also carry significant influence on neophytes. Weeding out the "what works for you" from the flavor of the month can be a challenge. There are so many great options to choose from that it is easy to get lost or at a minimum "financially challenged"!
My taste at the moment is also R/D bows and some of the bowyers I'm favoring are Big River Bows, Stewart Slammers, Dwyer, Holm-Made, and the Shrew Model T.
Owlmagnet,
I was perusing the Northern Mist site and noticed they offer a locator grip option for their Hill Style bows. Is that like mamory glands on a bull or is the old addage what ever works for you apply? I just can't attest to knowing if I like a straight or dished grip, but I know I like a locator grip.
~CB
Old thread with some links I posted...
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=102126
I think the smooth draw of a longer bow makes it "feel" lighter than it actually is.
I believe that is why I much prefer the Longbow to the Recurve or shorter Hybrid bows the nice even loading of the limbs for a smooth draw.
The string angle and weight distribution/displacement across your fingers from a longer bow also makes for an easier drawing bow.
Free dive spearfishing and beer! :laughing: Bring your dry suite up and we can try some big flatties on the free dive...
Thank you sir! Those links hold some real bow nerd data. Not really sure what to take from them, as I'm not looking at speed or stored energy, but the butter smoothness of the longer bow. Blacky sure puts out some cool stuff.
Mahalo,
~CB
Chromebuck: THE Big River (for your viewing pleasure) :D
Please ignore the giant puffs. I had just installed them and they hadn't had a haircut yet.
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg180/750grains/IMG_0755.jpg)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg180/750grains/IMG_0747.jpg)
Y'all can say smoother draw and increased shootability all you want...and I agree 100%!!
But I shoot them 66" bows because they are cool!!
I may get alot of strange looks when I walk into the woods with one, but everyone looking knows that they wish they were sporting such a fine creation as I am. :archer:
God Bless,
Nathan
I went from a 54" to a 64".
I dropped about 3# on the 64" but gained over an inch of draw after shooting it awhile. So I'm back to where I was with a better power stroke. Still feels less than the shorter bow.
I also don't have to replace my damascus gloves every summer from shooting through the bottom finger.
This is along with all the usual benifits of a longer bow.
Rob
Longer is definitely smoother. "Hill" bows also feel smoother because the don't have the early string tension that a more setback or recurved design does.
Longer is always going to be smoother and more stable. The only downfall of longer is that sooner or later additional limb mass starts to rob you of performance.
I've just always shot longer longbows -- 64-inch R/D bows and 66-68-inch straight bows. I've tried short bows, and use a 56-inch Bear TD recurve for turkey hunting out of a blind, but I don't feel as comfortable shooting them. They seem to stack a little quicker than the longer bows toward the end of the draw, the finger pinch is greater, and they're just not as stable for me. They magnify my form errors. The longer bows seem to accommodate most of them and don't penalize me as much.
For me, longer bows also seem to balance better in the hand, both shooting and carrying, and I actually find them easier to move through the woods. I use the front of the bow, positioned horizontally, to help pick my way through thick brush. Don't know why, but I seem to hang up less with a longer bow than a shorter bow.
Then, of course, there's the aesthetics. The curves of a longer bow just seem more graceful to me.
Longer bows tend to be smoother and more forgiving than shorter bows. That's why target bows aren't short.
Orion,
Are there mechanical disadvantages to r/d bows over 64"? I'm really liking the 66" length and find that I'm finding back tension much easier with every release. Haven't checked, but I may have also increased my draw length like others have stated.
I just feel more calm and relaxed shooting a bow that starts out smooth from brace height versus the pull of some of the shorter bows I've owned, and loved mind you. My 62 Bama Expedition pulls hard at brace, but seems to have let off at anchor. Can use back tension release with that bow pretty consistently.
~CB
Don't know of any disadvantages. I've only had one 66-inch R/D bow. An ACS. Really couldn't tell a difference between it and my 64-inch ACSs. My draw length is 28 inches. If I had a 29-inch or longer draw length, I'd go to the longer bow.
What kawika b stated above is very true, because of the angle on the fingers, a shorter bow, or in this case a longer bow gives the mind a false sense of easier draw due to the angle on the fingers which puts less pressure on the fingers as opposed to a shorter bow, or for a shorter bow, a false sense of feeling heavier due to more pressure on the fingers.
Hope all this makes some sense.
I gotta agree with the less fingerpinch/smoother draw gang.
"...they offer a locator grip option for their Hill Style bows. Is that like mamory glands on a bull...?"
CB, do you want me to incite a cyber-riot?!! I think I'll leave that bait on the hook...
My only experience is with straight grips, but I believe that the slight locator depression on Hill Syle grips has more to do with a repeatable grip, rather than a change in wrist position. My guess is that you would tend to maintain "heel down" pressure with all three of the available grip options. If I am wrong, I am confident a locator grip fan will be kind enough to correct me shortly!
I draw 27.5 in 95 I flew down to new orleans rented a car and drove up to poplarville Miss. For my oneonone seminar w Bob Wesley and or course I had to have ahhill longbow I told him so.and so he ordered it and heinspected it before sending it on to me.it is a70inchbig 5 brown glass white belly hut I only draw 27.5 .bob thought a longer bow would draw smoother and shoot better bob was kn his 60sthen and his target bow was 70 lbs.
The most accurate longbow I have ever seen was a 68" r/d that was nearly a complete reverse handle, I think it was an earlier version of one the 7 Lakes designs. I gave it to a friend, at my 26" draw it was a bit lighter than I wanted to use and he needed a really good bow. That bow is equally as accurate for him. My favorite Hill style bow is 68" and whip ended, if I had a bit more than a 26.25" draw I would probably go to a 70" bow.
I have a 66" 54#@28" Mowhawk LB and HAD a 60" 54#@28" Chekmate RC. As I'm aging (62 in October), The Mowhawk is "somehow" easier to use.
Except that I shoot a recurve better (my form issues, for sure) and like a shorter bow.
BUT, sold the RC and cannot bring myself to let the Mowhawk go. Maybe mostly upset at the fact that I struggle to get such a sweet bow to shoot for me.
String slap is the problem. And not with every shot.
Messes up my sequence because that's the last thing through my mind before release.
The longer bow guys always say that the length isn't a problem when hunting. Must be true.
I shot an older HH longbow that was 70lbs at 28 in and 66 inches long. My recurve is only 50lbs at my draw and 62 inches long. I swear the HH felt the same as my recurve. I couldn't believe it was a 70 pound bow when I checked the specs after shooting. I didn't look at the draw weight before I shot since the guy just handed it to me and said, "Give 'er a try." Great shooting bow and I don't usually like the feel of a HH. Still can't believe it was a 70 pounder. I think it was the longer style bow that made it feel easier to draw.
It would be interesting to see how a 68 inch bow feels. Maybe I could shoot 80 pounds?
Longbow or recurve, I will take the longer bow over the shorter bow everytime.
I have had a few 70 inch longbows over the years, most of them very heavy draw weights, but even on the not so heavy ones,(Zebras), what I really liked about them was the forgiving nature of getting good arrow flight when my release totally went to crap. I shot a deer at over thirty yards and the last thing I remember was my ring finger snagging the string past my shooting glove while middle and index finger were completely off the string. The arrow flew perfect and I killed the deer. Afterwards back home, I tried that same thing with my Bear takedown just to see, punched a hole right through my garage wall. Tried it again with the 70" Zebra and the arrow flew fine. The one thing I run into with the extra length is at times when hunting, I needed to cant the bow differently and found that I would get a lot of string contact on my chest with the longer bows, as in shooting down out of a tree stand with the bow laid over flat and me not willing to bend that far over when 18 feet off the ground without a harness on. Back in the day those large permanent stands were nice, one could lie down and take a nap on them, but they did not come with safety harnesses. It is quite easy to shoot a longer bow out of hang-on tree stand than those carpeted treetop Hiltons we used to build.
I really like my 64" Mohawk. Not a problem from a tree and certainly not on the ground.I find I shoot much better at longer ranges as far as left and right goes with a longer bow. Plus they are better for flipping snakes out of the way than a short bow.....RC
I hadn't really considered the snake flipping characteristics of the longer bow, but it does make sense...
Joe,
I think you are the only person I'm familiar with that shoots 66" recurves and top shelf ones at that. How long are the risers on your Blacktails?
RC,
What is it with you and snakes? That was good... :laughing: Are you on the Hope or Faith lineup this year?
~CB
RC,
I've only ever flipped one snake with a bow, a 62" Martin Hatfield vs either a black snake or a cottonmouth laying up in some brush I was slipping through, (I couldn't say, he became airborne before I could make a proper identification). While I am a committed Hill bow guy, I have to believe that the nicely recurved tips of the Hatfield contributed to both height and distance over what I would reasonably expect to attain with a straight-ended longbow....
I don't really use a case for my longer bow, especially since it's a 2-piece. I just use a bow sock.
:smileystooges: