Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Rossco7002 on August 11, 2012, 02:45:00 PM
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You read a lot about shooting lighter weight set ups for a variety of reasons and you hear advice against heavy setups (again) for a variety of reasons.
For me, I have 3 longbows ranging from 45-54 lbs at my draw length and I've noticed that when I'm shooting well the heaviest of the bunch easily gets shot the most (and most accurately). So much so that I really only ever pick up the lighter bow if my form starts to wander and I need to get back in the groove.
I've also noted that there are plenty of guys wandering around shooting some REALLY heavy set ups for North Americain game.
My question is (aside from the penetration gains etc...) what are the arguments FOR these heavy set ups? After all Byron Ferguson shoots heavy bows at his shooting exhibitions where extra penetration isn't a factor and accuracy is all that's required......
So 'Heavy Bow Guys' what is it that keeps you shooting the heavy weights against the current trends?
(For the record this thread was cleaned up to stay on topic after it started getting off course along the way))
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My friend makes bows, so I have many bows available. I also noticed that I was more accurate with bows over 50 #
I'd like to know why this is so
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All the bows I have owned have been between 60# & 73# so have never really shot a low poundage recurve other than to try a few which I quickly put back. For me I think the cast of a heavier bow over hunting distances (which is what most of us practice at) is flatter which leads to less height variation in impact points. I also believe it helps my poor release with the extra weight on my fingers it seems to release cleaner. I am really a snap shooter so I don't hold my draw for long at all so the weight doesn't seem to be an issue. I think you would have to be a pretty strong guy if you wanted to stand there & hold your draw for 3-5 seconds all the time while aiming a heavy bow.
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For me I notice I get a little sloppy with a lighter bow but with a heavier bow I concentrate more on the shot and therefore get better accuracy.
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A lighter bow is easier to have good form with for most people, but a heavier bow is more forgiving to small errors in form.
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I just moved from a 42# bow to a 56# bow and I am more accurate with it. I think its the faster flatter shooting arrow but Im lovin it! My confidence level jumped way up.
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:coffee: :coffee: :coffee:
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When hunting, you really only need to make one accurate shot, or two at the most. So there is no reason you shouldn't shoot the heaviest bow you can do that with, at daybreak on a cold morning after sitting in one position until you feel stiff as a board.
OTOH, if you need to shoot 100 accurate shots in a 3D tournament, you might need a lighter bow, even though you're more comfortable and your muscles aren't all tight and stiff.
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Number one reason, in my book, is for the reasons I was always taught..."to shoot the heavyest bow you can handle accurately".....and that is that we owe some responsibility to the game to eliminate as much of the "guesswork" out of the equation as possible. Now, I did say, "shoot accurately", so the excuse that I shoot "better" with a lighter bow does'nt cut it really.
If you hunt much, you know that "stuff" happens. A heavier bow, will cast a heavier arrow better, giving a better chance at two holes (better bloodtrail) or of gaining access to vital organs and bloodvessels should the unthinkable happen. Plain and simple. It's ethics for me.
I have no beef with those who shoot lesser bows than I do, if it's necessary. But to lecture me that their "lighter" settups are better is pure bunk. IMO, folks who seek out validation from others of their "light" settups, are really a bit insecure about it. No problems there....but take warning. For every "success" I can almost guarantee you a thousand instances where in similar circumstances the bowhunter would have liked or benefited from a heavier settup. That's the truth. The old adage is truth for a reason. And for all you newbies to trad.....don't buy into the hype of "modern designs or material" being so much better. Plain and simple...they are not. Not enough to overcome the myriad of other "stuff" that WILL arise in an emotional, high-strung encounter in the field. So...my best advice is shoot the most poundage you can handle accurately, and stay within your limitations. And then regardless of the bow's weight, maximize your arrows settup to the game and conditions you will be hunting.
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I have a 74# PSAIII I have hauled all over the world. I can shoot a great big head completely thru most everything walking. I see no real reason to go with something lighter but thats just me
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Because I like to shoot heavy arrows fast.
Right now I'm getting 183ish fps with an 800 gr arrow.
That stuff about a 55# acs = 90# HH has never played out to be true to me. Maybe 5-10lb performance differance from low grade to high grade bows, tops. I' e owned and shot all those weights. In the end design is a personal preferance. As is weight.
And I prefer to shoot heavy arrows fast. heavy fast arrows stay on course better. They are quiet. They penetrate everything and are more efficient. Every bit as accurate. More forgiving in the field, if you short draw 80# you are still shooting 75#, a marginal hit can b complete penetration Thru bone.
I don't see much reason not to.
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Mark hit the nail on the head.I've never heard any hunter ever say "I wish I was using less weight".In 7 years I've had 4 spine surgeys ,at the start of my recovery I was down to around 50#,I just didn't shoot it as well as my heavier bows.through recovery and hard work I'm back up to 60-64# and enjoy it much more.I have no second thoughts about the large game I hunt with the bow weight and heavy arrows I now use.
If you figure your set-ups are marginal ,work at shooting heavier equipment,I'm living proof it can be done.If you've never seen Martys videos,do yourself a favour and watch them.The animals he hits looks like they've been smacked by a lazer.light bows don't do that.
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Steve reminded me another major reason that I do...
I prefer to shoot the biggest broad heads available regardless of MA, at elk.
These setups make this a no brainer.
If accuracy is the same the question is, why not?
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I agree with Mark Baker. Howard Hill believed in heavy bows, we know that but he also said we should be dedicated enough to build our selves up to pull heavy weights. I too get the idea that some people want instant gratification and are not willing to work themselves.
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x2 what Mark Baker said. I wish i was strong enough to shoot a heavier bow, but i'm not so i go with the most weight i shoot comfortably and accurately. Age is also a big factor in this.
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I have been thinking about this for a few days .....
Think about this... How many of the "legends" shot light bows? I can't think of any really. Wonder why? If you consider Fred Eichler a legend then that's it. I'd say he shoots mid weight with his draw though. Just something to consider.
Besides this ain't like fishing. You don't get extra credit for an ultra light harvest. I feel it's an ethical decision to shoot as much weight as you can and still hit your mark.
That's my 1/2 cent worth. Y'all keep 'em sharp the season is right around the corner!
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most guys will have a cleaner release with a heavier bow. but it's all relative really...one mans heavy is another mans light and visa vera. I used to shoot 63 lbs and didn't consider it heavy, now with a bad shoulder 48 lbs is heavy
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I wasn't looking to debate the ethics of various bow weights when I started this thread - I'd simply like to hear from some guys that shoot heavier set ups to find out what draws them to it.
So far the response has been really interesting to me, please keep it coming guys. Once you're getting up over 60 lbs are most using a touch and go anchor? If so how do you implement this technique.
For me, I may well try to get a heavy Hill style bow used to give it a try before I submit my final specs to David Miller for my next longbow build.....
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Originally posted by larry:
most guys will have a cleaner release with a heavier bow.
Bingo, winner winner chicken dinner!!! A lot of the other stuff is emotional! Or egocentric, but the effect is cleaner release with less ability to pluck or torque the bowstring
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I draw and hold till I know I'm on target, then shoot. Its not any shorter of a hold then with my lighter 45, 50 lb bows.
and getting my back into it isn't an issue, I can feel it plain as day when I settle into the back muscles anchoring, and can hold that spot for many seconds. MY way of telling if I am comfortable enough to hunt with a bow is to get on my knees, hold the bow arm out to where it needs to be, then draw the bow back with the draw arm with as little movement as possible, hold it there for as long as I can imagine it would take a bull to move into the shooting lane, aim and let him have it.
You really cant shoot much weight very well by using your arm and bicep anyway. Back is where its at. When you are at the point that the back is being properly used, heavier weights come quickly and fairly easily with a little work.
It took time and work to get there with my 80#+ bows, and there were times when I didn't think I could get there. But now that I am there, they are no more difficult to shoot than the lighter bows. It all feels the same for any reasonable amount of shots. I will now shoot a hundred pound bow, which makes the 80# bow literally feel like its too light. I know that if I am to the point where I can draw the 100# with my rhomboids and traps and shoot comfortably, I am totally in the Zone at any lesser weight, as much so as anyone would be with 45 or 50.
IMO I think most guys are overbowed at any weight, 45 or not, because they just dont have proper form and back tension down pat. Not so much over-bowed as in over-their-heads, unwilling to put in the work to comfortably shoot "hunting weight" bows with proper technique. The fact is that its easier to shoot lighter bows when we have bad form, because the wrong muscles can handle lighter weights with less work and more forgiveness. Start working to heavier weights and we find out quickly the muscles and joints that are being over or improperly worked.
Its not an ethics issue. However, there is a strong argument for shooting heavier bows, one that we rarely hear the arguments for.
We are all free to shoot what we want and shouldnt besmirch a person who is different. Yet, There is merit to exploring both sides of a fence so relative as this.
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I used to shoot lighter bows but like others I've found that in general I shoot the heavier bows better. I have a cleaner release and the flatter trajectory helps increase my effective range as I shoot true instinctive with no gap aiming other aiming methods.
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im a better shot with my 72# recurve then i am with my 80# longbow and a better shot with my 72# recurve then my 55# longbow
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Shooting a heavy makes me practice much more to stay in shape and launch accurate arrows.
There is nothing like putting a 160gr Snuffer through anything I shoot at.
I tend to focus on my target more and bore a hole into the spot.
Last and most importantly is the fact that I am confident in my setup (been shooting 87# since 1984).
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this topic comes up many times a year at least, and the obvious answer is to stop thinking about it and just use the heaviest holding weight bow (at YOUR draw length) that you can comfortably, confidently and most accurately shoot under hunting conditions. amen.
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At one of his demonstrations, I asked Byron Ferguson what weight he shot and why. He said he had a sloppy release and the heavier draw weight gave him a cleaner release.
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For me, like others, I just like heavier bows better. Grew up shooting an old recurve starting at age 18. The bow pulled 90# but I never knew that until years later.
I have never had good results with light bows. Not on game anyway. Too hard to make that switch.
Just my opinion. SPend the time it takes to develop the strength to pull a heavy bow.
justin
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For me, increased accuracy with heavy bows comes from what I percieve as 'lock time' - a concept borrowed from target firearms shooters. The faster the hammer falls and the primer is struck, the faster the bullet's out of the barrel and the less chance for shooter error to affect the bullet's flight. It seems to me, my arrow is away and clear of the bow before (some) of my shooting imperfections come fully into play.
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Good thread. I recently re-entered traditional shooting this year after a few decades from the last time I shot a trad bow. Defying conventional wisdom I purchased a 50# recurve. I really did not have much difficulty with this weight and can anchor and hold while aiming on target. I am intriqued by heavier bows and am having one made in the mid to upper 50's now. I feel more comfortable with a little extra KE/momentum if something goes wrong with my shot on a whitetail or other game. My goal is to work up to the 60 - 70# range. But that being said, I have nothing against lighter set ups. My wife and daughters are set up with ultralite bows in order to learn and enjoy the experience. THat's what is important!
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For me, it is about when things DON'T go as planned. If at the moment I release an animal takes a step or moves in a manner that now makes my perfect shot, not so perfect. I like knowing that I have the reserve energy to make the shot count. If I hit bone I still want an exit wound for obvious reasons. Additionally, I like that I can take a follow up shot if available. While I would never take an initial shot at an animal on a poor angle. If I hit the animal and can follow up with another shot to dispatch the animal quickly I can take that shot on a less than ideal angle and know I am going to get to the vitals.
I want to get close, I want to make the perfect shot. But in the field, when it counts, I like the added confidence I feel with a heavy setup. Yes, I have to shoot pretty much daily to maintain the ability to shoot heavy. My shooting fingers stay sore and my targets do not last as long but all in all I think it is worth it, or at least it is to me.
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Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
this topic comes up many times a year at least, and the obvious answer is to stop thinking about it and just use the heaviest holding weight bow (at YOUR draw length) that you can comfortably, confidently and most accurately shoot under hunting conditions. amen.
Rob, I have to say. I usually do not agree with your comments on this subject. I think I have even voiced as much a time or two but I am also man enough to step up and say you hit the nail on the head here!!! You put it very simply and matter of factly. Thank you!
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Thanks for the responses guys, please keep them coming. Again, I'm not interested in starting a 'heavy vs light' arguement, I'm just interested to hear what it is that keeps guys shooting the 'plus weight bow'. For me if you're ethical, legal and having fun its all good.
I'm shooting mid-50s now, how did you guys work into the heavier weights?
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heavy bows are much more forgiving with poor releases...cause the heavy limbs have always a stronger torsional stability than the lighters...you can notice it especially on the floppy designed limbs bows'...I have had limbs whose I don't say the name which were delightful to shoot between 60# and 80# and difficult at 47# cause of their very poor torsional stability (and my poor release also :bigsmyl: )
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The heavier I get te better I like it. As time goes on I find all the afore mentions advantages to heavier bows come in. In my own journey it has gone from 40 to 50 to 60 to 70 and now to 80. And I don't know if it will stop there or not. The learning curve to this point has been a wonderful journey for me and if it keeps going as the weight goes up then I will keep going up in weight.
Ric
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I shoot heavy because as an adult with 3 little kids, and a full time job I often have to chose between the 3d range or the gym due to family obligations. My one and only bow is a 115# Hill and when I can chose just one activity, I still feel as if I am getting a workout.
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Wow Wade! You could cut that bow down the middle and still have two mid-weights to shoot! Lol
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Originally posted by Rossco7002:
I'm just interested to hear what it is that keeps guys shooting the 'plus weight bow'.
because we can. :goldtooth:
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Cleaner release, flatter cast, harder hitting and muscle form becomes better. what I mean is you have to pull with your back.
I tend to hold my anchor for several seconds but I don't shoot what anyone would consider a real heavy bow either. My heaviset is in the mid 60, which I shoot the best probably. I have a widow in the low 50 that I shoot well too but I notice after 15-20 shots my mind wanders when shooting the lighter bows. I guess it is boredom because the trajectory of the arrow is not nearly as entertaining. My .02 worth. God Bless
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I have shot a bow since I was 3 years old and always worked up to as heavy as I could shoot. Selfbow, glass or recurve for me today @ 51 years old 60-65 lbs @ 26'' is the best shooting bow for me in all types of bows.
I don't care what bow you shoot or what weight or what broadhead, you shoot what works for you but for me and hunting I have always got better arrow flight and shot placement with a heavy weight bow. It is easier for me to picture a straight line and get that type of arrow flight from me to the spot on the animal with a 60 lb bow.
Everyone thinks that his choice is the best and Im not saying mine is, but it is for me in the way I hunt and shoot. I think you should go as heavy as you can go not as light as you think you can get away with. Dead is dead no matter how fast it got there or went through, just that for me heavy is better.
Mike
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Hybrid, I'm shooting a gn super ghost w
What are you shooting that shoots an 800 gr arrow 185 fps @ 66#?
The ACS?
Whatever it is I want one in 90#....
Though the bulls I shot with 54# self bow are still pretty dead to this day. :)
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What strikes me as funny is that the heavy shooters I know do not go into the "light bow" threads to tell people shooting under "X" pounds that they are unethical. Personally, I say if you are shooting at or above the minimum requirements where you hunt then have at it.
However, everytime a heavy thread is started it ends up getting torpedoed by people that want to tell us:
1)How foolish we are if we shoot heavy bows.
or
2)How we are either trying to make up for lack of skill or want to show off our "Man card" as I saw it recently referred to.
Why do I shoot heavy?
Because I can!
Because I want to!
Because I ENJOY and have fun doing it!
Because I feel more confident with a heavy setup!
Because 1 day I hope to have the opportunity to pursue a game animal where I might need it.
and one more comes to mind:
I have never seen a MAXIMUM draw weight restriction written in game laws anywhere!
The original poster asked for the arguement FOR heavy bows and yet the thread goes down the same road of arguing why NOT to.
:banghead:
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I hate to see a thread such as this get so off track. It should not be a rock throwing contest. If I understand correctly, the initial request was simply for heavy bow shooters to try to explain what benefits they feel they get from shooting the heavy bow. The heavy vs. light argument was injected but is not part of the original inquiry. Not trying to be rude, but people who only shoot light bows are not in a position to add anything relevant to the original posting, since it specifically asks the question of those shooting the heavy bows. Please don't take undue offense at my bluntness, but that is how the original question was posed.
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Originally posted by Rossco7002:
Again, as the OP I'm interested to hear from heavy bow shooters as to what they love about their choice.....
Putting a arrow completely through my game consistently. Having the ability to shoot the biggest broad head I can find and still get consistent passthroughs. Shooting through the offside shoulder. That's what I like about heavy bows.
Most importantly CONFIDENCE! Having played baseball at a high level I know how important confidence is. If you think your a better hunter with 42# then your are if you totally 100% believe it. The same can be said for a guy shooting 90#. Whatever gives YOU the most confidence is important.
That being said if you are shooting 40# but know you could be shooting 60# without losing any accuracy then you aren't 100% confident. Having the ability to do more but not doing it is unethical to me. That's not saying a 40# or even a 35# bow is unethical because they aren't with the right archer behind them. It's the decision to shoot 40# when you could shoot 70 that is unethical to ME.
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Why is it so hard to understand that some guys are stronger than others????? You may only be able to draw/shoot 45# comfortably,but there are plenty of guys that can shoot 75# just as easily.
I could bench press 315#.Some guys can only get 150#,but plenty more can get 4,5,600# :dunno:
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I shoot heavier bows because they are usually the cheaper bows in the classifieds :thumbsup:
I shoot what I feel is comfortable and so does everyone else...
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OK - to the original post - a few reasons. 1 - for me I get a firm consistant draw, anchor, release with heavy bows there is too much spongs in anything under 65#, but 65# and up I shoot better. 2 - heavy bows shoot heavy arrows and the benefits are many. 3 - we started using heavy bows in the early 80s when true custom recuves became available and we were so sucessful I never had a reason to change. We had excellent recovery rates when many hunters using more common draw weights had struggles. 4 - Another reason I have used heavy tackle for such a long time is I always have a hunt planned for BIG game. Truthfully I do not consider whitetails big game - or at least 90% of what gets harvested by bowhunters. BIG game is Elk,Moose,Eland,Kudu,Buffalo,wild cattle so as a matter of discapline I shot tackle suitable for these animals year round. When I did hunt a caribou or bruiser whitetail I simply had more confidence.
We still keep little bows some 50# stuff and even couple lighter for teaching children and even adults when we teach beginners how to shoot barebow.
I see a trend towards lighter equipment but this does not concern me since I do not see many folks using light bows for big game. For average deer, little hogs or even a small bear no problems.
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I like shooting heavy arrows and the flatter i can shoot the arrow the better iv always had and shot heavy bows #65 to #100 also own a few around #45 to #55 but I can't seem to be able to get my fingers to release right with the lower poundage due to them locking up and not realesing the string when I want
Jim
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I typically shoot bows from 50-56# at my draw but I have one hill that's 64# and the release is noticably cleaner as it takes just the slightest movement to release the arrow.
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I'm just wondering if I qualify as a "heavy draw" guy with my Silvertip. It's 61# at 27", I draw a tickle over 30". So I figure that puts it at 68-69# for me. I wouldn't consider that a heavy bow, but is that considered a heavy bow?
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It's all about the horsepower!!!
When I started hunting out west for elk,I started shooting 65lbs+.Bigger kill zone meant longer shots and a arro tipped w/ a big Snuffer,not a good recipe for 50lbs or less.
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I shoot #60 mostly with pretty heavy arrows, i just like blowing through things!
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Confidence. I shoot a 67# bow most of the time. I feel that when I bend the string, I will have to drag something out. If I hit a shoulder bone, so what? I know from experience that I can shoot through them. I try to miss them, but I shoot really tight to the shoulder with confidence. Straight above the leg is my sweet spot for a broadside shot. With a lighter bow, I don't think I would crowd that area as much.
God Bless,
Nathan
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This will never be settled in the archery ranks but I agree with Mark Baker. I've always went by the Fred Bear philosophy of shoot the heaviest bow you can handle accurately. No matter how good you are or how hard you try you will make a marginal shot on an animal if you hunt long enough and I like getting my arrow to the vitals under any circumstance.
If heavey to you is 55# then that's what you should shoot Unless you are injured or have some other medical thing wrong I don't know of any man who couldn't shoot bows of moderate weight easily (60#+). I think we owe it to the game we hunt also.
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Originally posted by elkbreath:
Hybrid, I'm shooting a gn super ghost w
What are you shooting that shoots an 800 gr arrow 185 fps @ 66#?
The ACS?
Whatever it is I want one in 90#....
Though the bulls I shot with 54# self bow are still pretty dead to this day. :)
Elkbreath
No need for an ACS...jut a glass bow (RER Vital 64"), a clean release an a Man draw lenght :goldtooth:
Arrow is a GT kinetic 200 big game, full length, HIT 100 gr brass insert and 300 gr point: 805 grain
My bow is marked 64# @ 31"
(http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx225/hybridbowhunter/photo1-14.jpg)
I passed through with a BIG Jim 3 blades broadhead (1,5" wide) two weeks ago this young cape eland bull 1000#+ though, arrow exiting between the base of the neck and scapula. Spotted, stalked and shot on a free range Namibia hunt at a little over 30 yards (30 meter, theese beast are a little spooky). I would need to be really stupid to shoot a heavier bow....
(http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx225/hybridbowhunter/DSC00494.jpg)
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I loved this heavy bow thread. Seems like most threads on this topic are quickly jumped on by the "light bow advocates". Their mantra: even a 45 lbs bow will shoot through most N. American big game animals, modern design of limbs and arrows result in much more efficient tackle eliminating need for heavy bow, you can't fully utilize your back muscles with a heavy bow, you will shorten your draw length, etc., etc. It's like these concepts are tatooed on their brains. They may have valid points, but it's like they can't even entertain an different position. I have been shooting around 48 lbs at 3D and practice. I recently mixed it up and took a 65 lbs longbow to shoot 3D targets. It was a blast! Seems like my release was much improved - shot my best session ever. From my limited knowledge, I think the light bow advocates don't "get" how to practice with a heavy bow. I have found it helpful to
- Shoot 1 arrow and retrieve it (this builds in rest/recovery into practice session)
- Limit number of arrows shot per session
- Try to shoot every other day, and if aches/pains take 2-3 days off.
I loved this thread. I was reading an article by Dan Quillian from the early-90's that made several good points about advantages of a heavy bow. I think too many people dismiss heavy bows. I am ready to try a 75 lber :)
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Originally posted by overbo:
Heavy bows help w/poor release?BS,a poor release is a poor release.I've shot heavy bows for years w/ poor release.I don't care what anyone said.If you have a bad release.The arro DOSENOT hit where you intended to hit.
The biggest advantage to heavy bows,is that most trad. shooters are compound converts and w/ a compound,you it a wall!
So if you are a pretty physically strong guy.A 50lbs or less bow,you don't feel that wall but w/ a 65lbs+ bow,well that guy stacks right at your draw length.Which w/ combined w/ good form and release,can be very deadly!
I recently got some tips from a very accomplished archer on form.The one thing that's made a HUGE difference,is to put most if not all the string pressure on your middle finger.
BS...the stiffer the limbs, the cleaner the release...take an ILF riser, shoot some floppy limbs such as hoyt F7, then stiffer like border hex6 or uukah limbs and you immediately will see the huge difference in case of poor release at the same draw weight...heavy limbs are naturally stiffer in lateral stability, so the release will be naturally cleaner...that's physics.
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Nice looking lefty, hybridbow hunter. You can send it to me to try out anytime you want, lol. Unfortunately, I would get less out of it with my 29.5 draw length.
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Hybridbow hunter most people over here consider your bow to be heavy
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Back to original topic For me its heavy arrows 600 plus and cleaner release.
Heavy wood or aluminum are simple to build and get easy pass throughs.
After being a tank mechanic (USMC) for 20 years and a steamfitter for 10, my hands are a little beat up so its pretty hard to get a consistant release with a 45# bow. I also tend to hold too long and develop TargetPanic with light bows..........YMMV
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My Dave Johnson cedar longbow is 81 @ 27...heavy, but not too heavy...
To answer the gentleman who asked...here is why I shoot a heavy bow:
It was a gift from a very special friend, so I determined to learn it well...
It is a challenge, and I am up for the spirit of a good personal challenge to improve...
It is beautiful, graceful, powerful, and deadly..(kinda like my wife) and I appreciate that about it...
It has a story.
And because for me, and me only,....it's a celebration.
It takes effort to learn a heavier bow properly. It takes time and hard work...and success must be earned.....
When success is achieved....so is the personal reward. Kind of like a good stalk......
After a particularly arduous lifestyle, I am still healthy enough to work with my heavy bow, and I thank God everyday for that, and the other blessings in my life.
Everytime I pull and "get into" that bow, and hold it at anchor, then feel the string rip out of my fingers and see that 800 grain wooden arrow simply blast and drive into what ever I am shooting at.......it's a celebration for me.
I have just had rotator cuff surgery and am working back up to my biggun....it is hard, and it is taking effort, and it can be discouraging.
But I will get there, and soon. And once again I will be celebrating every shot.
Celebrating life, health, vitality, the ability to work and achieve a personal goal..and mostly just being alive..
Celebrating the life's work of a Master Bowyer like Dave Johnson....and his creation.
Someday I will no longer be able to properly shoot this bow, and I know that. When that happens I will shoot less weight...and celebrate those equally....
I truly enjoy the effort of pulling a heavier bow and the feel of my back as I pull through anchor and feel that string rip out...and the release takes care of itself.
I love the feel of the heavy bow as it launches a heavy arrow with total authority, but with almost complete silence.
I love to see that arrow hit, and keep going...
I love the confidence that I do not have to ask a forum if my setup is enough....I know it is.
Mostly, I truly enjoy the work it takes to shoot it well, and hunt with it well...any success must be earned, as with any good thing in life.
I don't care if anyone ever knows what my bow's draw weight is, or what their opinions are regarding heavy or light, or whatever....it is a personal thing for me, and I will continue to enjoy it as long as I can.
And on the day that I can no longer pull and shoot this bow, I will put it up and regard it fondly.
OR...I will gift it to a younger man who can spend time with it...celebrating.
Russ
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Beautiful post Russ!!!! I think you hit the nail on the head for a lot of us who are less eloquent.
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Thanks Wade....
I did forget to say that I appreciate Mr. Baker's post as well......very well said.
Russ
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In reading the replys to the original question, I am assuming that the author meant bows in the range of 60# or higher. I cannot shoot bows that heavy, however I do shoot the heaviest bow possible. As an older person with health issues, and by health issues I mean issues like arthritis or other condition that limits the weight element in shooting a bow I find myself limited. I shoot a recurve 43#@25" and a longbow 42#@25". The reason I shoot these weight are: (1) It is a bow weight I can handle comfortably; (2) I have confidence in the bow doing the job in a hunting situation; (3) Drawing the heaviest bow weight I can also helps me with the spinal canal stenosis I suffer from. It is good exercise that keeps the stenosis from completely disabling me. However, since I do not hunt anything but hogs, I find that I am very selective in the size and weight of the hog I shoot.
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Thank you Russ and well said. I'm in the same boat and generally just keep shooting 100+ arrows anight beacue of the Joy near addication, therapeutic value that is being to me. Thanks for the posts guys.
DAn
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Russ, that was a great post. I think one of the best parts of it was:
"...I love the confidence that I do not have to ask a forum if my setup is enough....I know it is...."
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Great post, Russ !
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So when shooting these beasts do you guys pre-aim through the draw to minimize your holding time? I'm tempted to go heavy with my next bow and would like to hear what you guys do differently (if anything) when shooting heavy bows...
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Hello, my name is Kyle and I'm an addict.
Because of this I shoot constantly and can easily handle a 70# bow even with my 135 lb. frame. For me, all the fun is in the preparation. At 36 years young I won't be able to do it forever, but do it I will until I can't any longer.
Just keep'em in the 10 ring......
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Rossco....I tailor my shooting around my hunting...that means sometimes I hold the bow out in front of me and draw straight back to minimize movement. Other times I use the swing draw...
At first you'll have difficulty drawing that last inch or so until you really get used to it and use your back. You sort of compress under the weight...until you get used to drawing it alot.
Then you shoot it just like a lighter bow, and you can hold it at anchor....as long as you want.
Gonna take work though.....
Good things are you really learn to push that bow arm out, and pull with the back...also you will pull more easily if you really engage the middle finger and let it hold most of the weight.
hope this helps....
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Piont on Russ! RonD piont on to you also sir!
Ric Mitchell
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Originally posted by Rossco7002:
So when shooting these beasts do you guys pre-aim through the draw to minimize your holding time? I'm tempted to go heavy with my next bow and would like to hear what you guys do differently (if anything) when shooting heavy bows...
Hey Rossco,
I can't snap shoot. Just doesn't work for me. Even when shooting 80, 90, or even 100+ pound bows, I draw, anchor, concentrate on my spot and release. Sometimes that is 1 second, sometimes 2-3 seconds.
When I am exercising I will draw a bow to 1/3 draw and hold for a 10 count, then to half draw and hold for a 10 count, full draw ten count, then do the same as I am relaxing the bow. I do this with both right and left arms. I wait 2 minutes and repeat. 3-5 sets depending on how I am feeling.
When I am practicing, and especially as season approaches, I will focus on a spot and draw the bow EXTREMELY slowly, just as if trying to avoid detection by wary eyes. I hit anchor, focus on my spot and release. I do this standing, from a 15' ladder stand in my back yard, from my hunting stool, any possible position I may feel a hunting shot might present itself.
I personally do not plan to hunt with my 90# or heavier bows, I use these for exercise and strength building. But it sure makes my "Go To" bow (83#) seem mighty easy to shoot. For me 70-85# seems to be my sweet spot.
Hope this helps.
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Hunter,
If you are anywhere near North East Wisconsin PM me, I have some experience.
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I also practice as I would hunt. Sometimes I snap shoot, some times I use a swing draw and some times I hold on target for a few seconds. I lift weights as much as I can ( probably 3-4 times a week), train martial arts 3 to 4 times a week and shoot my bow daily. What helps me the most though is drawing left handed (I am right handed) 10 or 15 times after I shoot, I feel this has really strengthed my holding arm and has allowed me to be much more steady during the shot.
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The best workout is to start with a comfortable weight, draw it back 1/2 way, pause, continue to 3/4 draw. pause and to full draw and pause. Repeat when letting down, 3/4 pause, 1/2 pause and down. Do 3-5 reps from the right and left side. Gradually, increase your bow weight and draw weight. Do this every other day. Do not try this with a bow >10 lbs than you are accustom to shooting. :wavey:
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enjoy and have fun .....
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ttt
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Nice to see this thread is back.
Keep it in context.
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I really like reading the post here from people who shoot this equipment. I read one that said they like to shoot alot of arrows so they don't shoot heavy bows. I shoot every day, year round amd I live in a northern climate. My bows range between 70 & 80# so they aren't that heavy but I can shoot them all day long. My son had posted a video clip on here of him shooting his 93# longbow and yes, we hit full draw and hold. He weighs in at 135# also.
I guess the point is, if you want to take a page from Russ's post you will learn to shoot whatever weight you truly want to if you'll put in the effort.
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i'll put this out to y'all ....
get acceptable and agreeable definitions ...
1. define a "heavy weight" hunting stick bow.
2. define a "light weight" hunting stick bow.
and then define usage ...
3. what are the objective positive benefits of either of those two bows?
show me some common sense OBJECTIVE answers to these questions, please.
i don't wanna know or care why YOU shoot heavy or light, i wanna see a list of real world functionally object reasons for hunting at either end of the trad stick bow holding weight spectrum.
can anyone do this as little subjectivity as possible?
show me, i'm listening .... yes, this is a test of sorts. :campfire:
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First, thank you for re-opening the thread as I do believe there is some good information being communicated here.
Beyond that I need time to put my response together as paying the bills comes first. Hopefully I can do that tonight when I have some time to compose my thoughts in an objective manner.
Thanks again,
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Great to see this thread back! As rob says, let's see some objective reasons listed - as the OP that's what the original intent was here (sorry if it was a little unclear).
For me, I shoot mid-50's weight right now and I'm interested to see what benefits I might see by moving up in weight with my next bow.
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Rob, good questions. I think we'll have almost as many definitions to your questions as we do reasons why people shoot what they shoot but I'll bite from my perspective only.
1. Heavy bow - 80# & up
2. Light bow - 60# & under
3. + Points for heavy. Better release, ability to shoot heavier arrows with more punch. Better penetration on game. Just makes you feel beter inside!
+ points for lighter. People unable to shoot good weights due to physical problems, gender or age. I'd rather have them hunting than not as long as they are ethical & know their limitations.
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Rob....I really don't think we need to define what a 'light weight' bow is on this thread(don't need that can of worms)....only what heavy is. We don't need to draw a line in the sand on what is light.
On average, based on being on this forum for nearly a decade.....60# is heavy to most....just as ONE example(yes, I have many), we have only HALF of the months taken for Hope and Faith this year due to them being 61 and 63#s. When we started, we only had a third of the months booked....most years we have more folks wanting to hunt with them than months available.
So, in my book, based on HUNTERS THAT ACTUALLY HUNT AND KILL STUFF, 60#s and over is considered heavy. NOT some weight determined by folks that just want to pull a heavy bow just so they can claim they can.
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Glad to see this thread back up. It is difficult to come up with what exactly is a heavy bow, but as Terry has said, 60# seems a pretty good weight. If you don't agree with that, try to sell one over 60#. That being said, in the orignal post the weight referred to was below that, but for that individual it was a heavy weight. I guess the main point of this thread is about shooting what is a heavy weight for an individual and the advantages that it would have. Many people have already described some of those reasons. I haven't been doing the trad thing as long as some folks, but have killed stuff using trad bows ranging from a little over 45 pounds to a little over 80 pounds, and both weights have some advantages over the others, IMHO. When I started out, 55# would have seemed heavy to me, but now it seems fairly light. I agree with others that having a heavier weight makes for a slightly improved release, but eventually you get to a weight that is heavy enough that you don't relax your fingers and have more trouble holding steady on target for more distant targets, so those advantages can go away. This happens at a different point for everyone. Obviously, the heavier weight for a given bow design will have penetration advantages, but at some point there will be accuracy issues. If you aren't shooting over 25 yards, that will be less important than for a target archer shooting longer distances. We each have to find where we are comfortable. For me, my HH Rogue that is 95# @ 29" is a nice bow to practice with for strength and as a training bow, but for now I would not be accurate enough with it beyond 15 yards, so it isn't going hunting with me. Maybe that will change in the future. As so many have said, shoot the heaviest weight that you are comfortable/accurate with in a hunting situation. Also realize that you may be tired from hiking up a mountain or stiff from sitting in a cold treestand, where a slightly lighter draw weight may be helpful. One thing is fairly certain, though. Shooting heavier bows makes it easier to handle the lighter weight bows. I usually shoot whichever bow that I am shooting regularly the best. YMMV.
One thing that I will mention, which my be a curiosity all to myself. I find that when I have a lighter weight bow I have more of a tendency to short draw and develop target panic. With the heavier weights that I really have to work at, I seem to focus more on getting to full draw and the problem goes away. That may be just me and some mental issues, but I have definitely noticed it to be true.
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As a side note, based on one I just removed, all smart a$$ remarks will be removed.....and the smart a$$ that makes the remarks may also be removed.
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Originally posted by Rossco7002:
Once you're getting up over 60 lbs are most using a touch and go anchor?
That is how I shoot ANY weight bow.....but can and DO hold at full draw if the game dictates....once the shot is re-acquired, I apply rearward tension and release.
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Originally posted by Sam McMichael:
I hate to see a thread such as this get so off track. It should not be a rock throwing contest. If I understand correctly, the initial request was simply for heavy bow shooters to try to explain what benefits they feel they get from shooting the heavy bow. The heavy vs. light argument was injected but is not part of the original inquiry. Not trying to be rude, but people who only shoot light bows are not in a position to add anything relevant to the original posting, since it specifically asks the question of those shooting the heavy bows. Please don't take undue offense at my bluntness, but that is how the original question was posed.
Yes...this thread is being cleaned up...and these types of posts will be removed.
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Originally posted by Rossco7002:
So when shooting these beasts do you guys pre-aim through the draw to minimize your holding time? I'm tempted to go heavy with my next bow and would like to hear what you guys do differently (if anything) when shooting heavy bows...
I would suggest shooting the exact same way you do now....just work your way up if you so desire.
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Also, if you have only been shooting a few months, and have never killed anything.....please reserve your 'opinion'. All you are doing is wasting bandwidth, and the internet has enough keyboard cowboys already. (yes, I am referring to someone that posted with ZERO experience in shooting and killing)
Go kill some stuff, and come back and tell us all about it. After all, this IS a hunting forum, and that's what we want and like to hear.
Sorry to be so blunt, but this thread WILL remain on topic.
Now, back to our regularly scheduled programing :campfire:
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A Hill style bow of #60+ keeps me honest, I can shoot any light fluffy arrow with a #40 - #50 bow but when I get into a #60+ Hill style I have to shoot heavy arrows or it will kick me like a mule. If I am using heavy arrows it is as smooth and quiet as any bow I have ever fired but with a light arrow it will kick me hard enough to rattle my teeth (the infamous hand shock).
I read some one in this thread say heavier bows are more forgiving of form, I am not sure about that but I do feel that I can feel if my form is bad, it amplifies my mistakes to me. If my hand flies away from my face it REALLY flies away.
Originally posted by Rossco7002:
Once you're getting up over 60 lbs are most using a touch and go anchor?
Originally posted by Rossco7002:
So when shooting these beasts do you guys pre-aim through the draw to minimize your holding time? I'm tempted to go heavy with my next bow and would like to hear what you guys do differently (if anything) when shooting heavy bows...
I usually shoot a #63 Hill style bow and I hold at anchor for about a 2 count, not always but usually. At times I practice holding for a 5 count just in case I ever have to. I pre-aim not because of the weight of the bow but because I need to keep focused on my "spot" through out the shot sequence to be consistently successful.
These are just my observations.
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:archer2:
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Back in the 70's I shot bows in the mid 80 pound range, certainly not heavy by some acounts, but generally speaking that would qualify. I also shot some bows upwards of 100# but simply couldn't shoot them well, consistently.. The bows in the mid 80 pound range shot well for me and I handled them easily.
I shot the heavy weight because I could !! I was accurate with them and they performed well on game..
As the years have gone by I have gone down in the weight but still occasionaly miss the performance of the heavy bows..
Shoot 'em if you can !
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The definition of heavy and light is too subjective to define, imo. A 100# bow to Marlon Torres is akin to a 50# bow for me. A better question might be why would a person choose to shoot a bow that is in the upper range of poundage that he can shoot accurately versus one from the lower range, toward the minimum legal limit.
Rossco, I'll give you an example from my current line up. My two favorite bows are both Hills. One is 50 @ my draw, the other 60. Both are more than adequate for anything I hunt, from squirrels to black bear. I have them set up to where they both have the same arrow trajectory. The heavier bow will shoot a 650 grain arrow at the same speed the lighter bow does with a 550 grain arrow.
I've found the lighter bow to be more sensitive to my release and to torquing the string. Prior to getting the 50# bow, I had been shooting bows in the 65# range for some time. Years, in fact. Shooting the 50# bow revealed I had some issues with my release (too much tension), and, frankly, my accuracy with it was not anywhere close to what I had become accustomed to. I put the heavier bows away and devoted myself to improving my overall form. After several months of shooting nothing but the lighter bow, my accuracy increased by leaps and bounds, with all of my bows.
Now, which bow do I hunt with? I tend to lean towards the heavier of the two. I hunt in areas where some very large wild boar roam and like the added benefit of the heavier arrow. I'm not shooting a bunch of arrows while hunting, so fatigue isn't an issue; the poundage is such that I can easily pull it, even when cold and stiff; and I can hold it at full draw for several seconds if necessary. I'd have to say, too, that if push came to shove, it would be the bow I'd keep if I had to sell all but one.
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My reason for the weight I shoot IS because of my hunting experiences. I shot a bull elk in Montana after a long stalk and took him quartering towards me at 8 yds. The 800gr. arrow went in tight behind the left shoulder and broke the back leg on the right side with the broadhead sticking out, he went 35 yds. I shot a 504# black bear after a good stalk and hit him behind the right shoulder with the arrow angling up through and sticking out the left shoulder 6" after breaking that leg. I couldn't count the number of deer I've killed with my arrows severing the shoulder bones on the opposite side and completely passing through.
Attempting to answer the original question, that is my argument FOR using the heavy stuff, not just being able to pull it back. I'm a hunter first and always will be.
Now, before half the people on here begin telling me I'm not ethical because I shot at an elk quartering towards me..he wasn't when I shot but spun that way before my arrow covered the 8 yds. I was very glad for the weight of bow I was using that day.
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My first longbow was an 89 pounds at 28" reverse Tembo. I figured that I was going to lose speed but gain stability, so I went heavy. Then I found that my Hill draw was only 27" maximum, then later I found that I shot better at 26&1/4". I shot a few deer with a Schulz that pulled to 65 pounds at that shorter draw, but ended up going back up in bow weights with the hopes that I would get more arrow speed along with more forgiveness. I did get more forgiveness in some cases for my release, but the added speed was not apparent and in some bow I lost speed. One thing the heavy bows did was to slow my form down a bit; with light bows, I would rip the arrow back almost as fast as the bow could shoot it forward so in that way I was more accurate with the heavy bows. However, with time the heavy bows started to beat me up and I had to drop back to the mid 60s, now my heaviest hunting bows are those and my standards are in the 50s. I can still shoot my 90 pounder, but I pay for it in the wrist and finger joints. Heavy bows are fun if one can handle them, but just because someone can go real heavy that does mean that it is necessary to go overboard and there are physical hazards to consider. I really did not like the influence my heavy bows had on the younger guys that wanted to get into traditional archery, I always had to talk them down. The cases where I did not succeed with my warnings about going too heavy too fast, the person got a heavy bow despite my efforts and quit shooting in frustration.
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I have not read all the post(shame on me)here but personnally I seem to get a cleaner release with my heavier bows. With that said, heavy to me is anything between 55 and 60 pounds at my 28" draw. I just don't get the same consistancy when shooting bows 50 pounds and below.
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Heavy bows are going to hit harder or shoot flatter and usually both. It is harder to get away with poor back tension, which CAN lead to better shot execution. Vertical misses/errors are reduced. Moving targets are easier because less lead is required.
During 3D shoots, people were often impressed by how flat the arrow flew. Some didn't like that they had a harder time tracking the arrow, but the flatter trajectory reduces vertical errors in judgment and helped to post higher scores.
Many people think that heavy weight shooters are snap shooters which can cause poor accuracy and fatigue rapidly. I had a guy at a FITA shoot snicker at me when I told him the poundage. He said there was no way I would last the 160 shots. By the end he complimented me regarding my long hold and maintaining consistent draw and accuracy. I feel fortunate that 65# is very managable, even after long periods of no shooting. I have to work hard to stay comfortable with 80# because that exceeds my normal abilities.
Everyone is different but some of the advantages of higher poundage bows are undeniable.
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I am not an for or against heavy draw wieght or more moderate draw weight. An arrow kills only by cutting,if a sharp broadhead pokes out both sides of a deer,it has done all it can do no matter what bow it was shot out of or how fast the arrow was going. Hits on bone can make a diffrence of coarse but from many accounts even lower poundage bows set up right can do this on deer. For the most part,A heavy bow shoots around the same speed as a lighter bow but just does so with a heavier arrow if the bow is tuned right.Of coarse a heavy arrow is going to have more penatration than a light one at bow speeds. Of coarse a lighter arrow shoots flatter than a heavy one.However from several threads here in the past,,the vast majority say they seldom will shoot at game much over 20 yards so a flat trajectory hardly comes into play.So what it really comes down to is only what bow weight you shoot the best and are most comfortable with.
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Originally posted by Kituwa:
So what it really comes down to is only what bow weight you shoot the best and are most comfortable with.
AND....it also depends on the game you are hunting. Bows are tools, and one size don't always fit all.
Certain game requires heavier weight bows, heavier arrows, and different broadheads, and if you are going to kill them with consistency, you need to work to achieve a level of proficiency with the tool needed to get the job done, and the equipment required to go with them. In other words, if you are going to kill an elephant or buff, you need to get comfortable with a heavier bow.
Again, this thread about the case FOR heavier weight bows and why...and there are reasons why that are legit. Lets talk about them instead of trying to discourage them like there is no need for them.
:campfire:
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If you only hunt Northwest Blacktail deer then you can hunt your whole life using a #55 bow, but if you go on a Southeast pig hunt with the armored plate over their heart (I love those pics you shared Terry), or a Montana Moose hunt, a heavy bow is definately the right tool for the job. I have a #75 Tembo I am working up to in case I ever hit the lottery on a Moose hunt.
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http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=000381;p=1
I hunt bows that are too light for game pictured in this thread. I shot a couple of 60# bows with much less difficulty than I thought I would at the time but it was only a few shots.
This thread and the one I have linked here are inspiring me to consider working up a bit in bow weight before I work up too much in age!
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I'd like to add....it does NOT take a big, or strong, or stout person to draw heavy bows. Its all in training and technique.
I remember guys at the gym that were serious weight lifters and body builders that competed. They saw my 80# bow in the truck one day and wanted to have a go at it and not ONE of them could pull it even close to anchor. When I pulled it back to anchor about 8 times they thought it was a trick. One guy was even looking for a 'switch' on my bow. :biglaugh:
Now these guys were MUCH bigger than me and could bench 100 to 150#s more than me but the drawing motion is one that I've done basically all my life and one they had not done.
So, just because you are not a brute doesn't mean you can train and draw a heavy bow. Just make sure you are smart and learn to draw the bow correctly with proper alignment and bone on bone structure and work up slowly and sensibly...and always warm up before while you are training.
Once the new weight is comfortable...that will be your new 'warm up' weight if you want to move up again.
Also, train every other day, just like weights, your muscles need time to repair and grow.
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I used chest pull springs doubled up, dumbbells, and chest pull handles with short tarp straps for bow pulling workouts. Strength training needs to have some form of adjustable tension, so one can go up in increments. John Schulz suggested getting a heavy training bow, problem with that was that it was spendy and very soon became my hunting bow. I am a big believer in being able to draw considerably more than what one hunts with, that is where the variable of having something that one can constantly up the resistance comes in without breaking the piggy bank.
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I have been intrigued lately with heavy bows. I have been shooting 50#, just ordered a 58# R/D longbow, and am considering a 65# bow in the classifieds. I had the pleasure of shooting 2 lovely Hummingbird recurves this past weekend, one of which pulled 63# at my DL. I was surprised that I was able to draw and anchor and shoot about 2 dozen arrows with it. It absolutely threw the 2419's (over 700g) like a missile and hit like a mack truck! It also seemed to allow for a cleaner release and better arrow flight.
Anyway I am not large at just under 6 ft and 165# with just under 28"DL. I also am not young at 44. I exercise regularly with mostly theraband (rubber) performing multiple arm and upper back exercises. If the bow is well constructed (smooth drawing), and your form is good with strong back tension then a heavy bow can be a joy to shoot.
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As much as my shoulder regrets it every time I shoot a heavy bow, I'm intrigued all over again reading through this thread. Good information and good to hear first hand experiences. Keep it coming guys.
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I don't think you can have a bow that hits to hard. Or blows through game to fast. I would rather have to much bow than not enough. Good thread i used to shoot bows 65 to 70 lbs but that was a long time ago. Age and injury won't let me shoot that weight any more. If you can shoot heavy bows and hit your mark go for it. I think this is a good thread lots of good input. TD.
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Some good points here so far. Much like anything else in life, there is a commitment required to practice your craft and devote the time and energy necessary to use heavier draw weights. It does not happen over night and any newbies reading this thread need to take heed of this. Just like any other physical activity, a person must build their bodies to withstand the rigors of the activity they persue. This requires dedication and desire to achieve success. It would be foolish to think you can simply walk outside and run a marathon without training and preparation. Drawing AND ACCURATELY shooting a heavy draw weight bow under the stress of HUNTING CONDITIONS takes time to develop.
The advantages of being able to shoot these draw weight are numerous and well worth the effort in my opinion. The flat trajectory with heavy arrows is a big plus in hunting situations. There is less wind drift with a heavier arrow moving at higher velocity. Incidental contact with an object in the arrows trajectory may not adversely affect the course of flight as much as a light arrow with less energy behind it. A heavier draw weight means heavier limbs which resist torque and limb twist. A crisper release is easier to achieve with a heavy draw weight. A larger broadhead with larger cutting surfaces can be used with heavier draw weights without impeding penetration. An accidental scapula or spine hit, though not desirable, might be lethal due to increased arrow energy on impact. If you short draw your bow due to an awkward position during a hunting situation, you will have more energy transfering into the arrow to achieve better penetration than you will if you short draw a light bow (effectively robbing the bows power stroke).
Those are a few of the advantages an archer can expect from building his body to use heavier draw weights. For the newbies, unless you're a naturally gifted athlete with freak strength, please take the time to build the strength necessary to PROPERLY shoot a bow before immediately jumping to 70+ # bows. Don't try to rush it. If you work at it, it'll come in due time and you'll be much better off in the long run. ~Steve
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1. hunt with the heaviest holding weight you can consistently shoot accurately under hunting venue conditions. this may be 40# or 90# - or whatever. we're all unique, vive la difference.
2. use a bow holding weight and arrow weight that is commensurate with the type of game hunted. can't master beyond 45# holding weight and you wanna hunt moose? check yer ethics and maybe git a rifle.
3. don't hurt yerself. there are well proven, documented, safe methods of increasing bow holding weights. get with a program and regimen, don't rush it, and do it the right way.
4. be aware of "over bowing" and realize there *may* be long term detrimental physical effects due to shooting "heavy bow weights".
5. shooting heavier weight bows allows for a better finger release, more mass weight arrows (better penetration), and in some cases offers a flatter arrow trajectory. i'd add in that heavy bows are just more "manly" (to some individuals) but that would be bs. :D
enjoy the journey, relish the rewards.
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I've had some emails based on some comments I made asking 'how to' move up properly.
1st let me say I'm no physical trainer with no 'certification'....but I do know what worked for me so I'll pass it along......
OK, before you start you need to make sure you are drawing your current bow correctly ....i.e., proper alignment and bone on bone structure.
Make sure you are 'closing the door behind you' with a rotational draw which will help immensely getting your alignment correct AND you will be able to pull more weight easier.
Here's a link explaining....in case some of you never go to the shooters form forum....
Link to Alignment Thread (http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=003278#000005)
Also, get a 'hook' on the string....this will help you pull more weight easier as well than shooting off the pads of your fingers(finger tips). Imagine trying to start an old rope pulled lawn mower with the handle on the tiips of your fingers rather than having your fingers wrapped around it.
More in a bit.......
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Terry,
thanks for your post, it brings up the real truth....it is all about technique. I have an Army buddy who we call "Mongo"...he has a 56 inch chest, a 34 inch waist, 20 inch arms, and no neck.......
At the house the other day he wanted to see my bow....and he tried to draw it. You should have seen the look on his face........priceless. Especially when I proceeded to draw it fully about 8 times......
And this is a man who I have personally seen bench press 340 pounds over 20 times without stopping or changing the expression on his face....
It's all about training and technique. Over time you will get stronger, but it's a byproduct.
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thanks for posting Terry. Was wondering where to look for info on this.
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Russ, I am not surprised by that story. I am by far not the strongest member on here and I am in far worse shape than I was at my peak when I could bench press 350 pounds and deadlift around 550 pounds, but I can draw roughly twice as much weight now than I could then.
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I'd like to hear some safe strategies that people have used to successfully bump up the weight too. As personal challenge this is really starting to intrigue me...
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As several have stated before, you don't have to be a beast to shoot heavy equipment correctly. The video clip below is my son who weighs in at just under 135# shooting his 93# longbow. Just clik on the picture.
(http://vid131.photobucket.com/albums/p314/longbowman_bucket/th_100_0005.jpg) (http://s131.photobucket.com/albums/p314/longbowman_bucket/?action=view¤t=100_0005.mp4)
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Originally posted by Rossco7002:
I'd like to hear some safe strategies that people have used to successfully bump up the weight too. As personal challenge this is really starting to intrigue me...
I will share my methods but as I think others have stated I am not, nor do I want to be, an expert. I am simply going to share with you what has worked for me. Above all else, make sure you take your time and listen to what your body is telling you. Sore muscles is part of it but pain is a different matter. Pain is your body telling you that that something is wrong so don't ignore it. Here is how I increased my drawing and holding weight. (I started at 56# and increased to 100#+ in about 6 months, your results will vary)
Use basic exercises to increase upper body strength. Push ups and more importantly pullups. Pullups will strengthen your back and a strong and healthy back is critical in my humble opinion. This was in conjunction with other exercises but worked into a workout routine. Slooooow reps, 3 sets when you do either and as many reps as you can do in each set. Also fast and furious may look impressive but the results are in going slow and steady and always remember that negative resistance (When you are going down on pushups and pullups) is as much as, if not more effective than the up motion.
{b]Dumbell rows[/b] - again with proper form and a slow steady rythem. If you are going to fast or jerking the dumbells then you are not getting any benefit and you will likely hurt yourself. When using dumbell rows, think about your form when you are shooting your bow. You should feel the same back tension at the top of the row. Almost like you are trying to hold a tennis ball between your shoulder blades.
Bow exercises 1 - Shoot the bow. Focus on proper form and not the quantity of shots but the quality.
The next two exercises should only be done a few times a week. Be sure to give your muscles time to recover.
Bow exercises 2 - With a bow that is near your current weight limit. After a shooting session with a bow you are comfortable in shooting. Take the heavier bow (you should be warmed up before this!!!!!) and in a shooting stance draw the bow to 1/3 draw and hold for a 3-5 count. Then draw to 1/2 and repeat the count. Then to full draw and hold at anchor and repeat the count. Reduce to half draw and count, reduce to 1/3rd and count. Now repeat this process with your other arm. This is 1 set. Wait 90 second and repeat the set for 3 sets. When you are first starting a new weight you may need to hold for only 2 seconds. As you get stronger you can increase the hold time. Again, the negative resistance as you let the bow down is important. Go slow.
Bow exercise 3 - Another exercise that allows me to mix up my routine (remember your body will adjsut quickly, you have to mix things up to keep your muscles confused and adapting) Take the bow and with your normal shooting arm, draw the blow to anchor in a smooth but speedy draw. Perhaps a slight bit faster than if you were drawing the bow to shoot. Again, do not jerk or snatch the string back, this is just a normal type draw. Once at anchor begin letting the bow down in a slow and deliberate motion. Much like if you were trying to let down without spooking game. I usually try to count to 20 as I let down. Hitting 20 about the time the bow hits brace. This focuses on that negative pressure I keep talking about, it is different than what your muscles are used to when drawing and shooting a bow. Therefore you will put new stress on your muscles.
With any of the bow exercises practice using good form. These should be done with the same motions used when shooting without the release of the string. I would also recommend you start out with a bow you are very comfortable with as I promise you, it will be like starting over again regarding how it will make your muscles sore.
The last thing I will throw out is the use of resistance bands. These are great in that there is always the negative resistance I keep mentioning. I picked up a set at a local sporting goods store for about $30 and use them regularly.
This is what has worked for me......your results may vary!
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there are more than a few good bow holding weight training programs. here's a super simple one where you can use yer current bow as a training tool for holding heavier weights.
with your current, easy to shoot bow, and without using an arrow, draw the bow to your normal anchor, then pull it past that anchor to a predetermined second "anchor" point and maintain proper form.
as an example, if your normal anchor is side-of-mouth, continue drawing to the back of your jaw line. or it could be to your ear.
you should definitely feel this added holding weight tension, but it should not be a strain. it should be effort. there should be no pain.
again, this assumes you have complete control over your current bow - you can draw to full anchor with good form, good line up of your upper body, and hold at full anchor without creeping for at least TWO seconds. if not, you really need to work this training program.
hold the second anchor for a count of 1 or 2 or 3, whatever is easiest for starters. let down.
if yer having an issue holding at your NORMAL anchor, do NOT go to a second anchor, train at your normal anchor first.
do this in increasing reps and hold times, daily.
for the best of shoulder/arm conditioning, hold your bow in your drawing hand (reversed!) and draw it a few times ONLY to your anchor. no weight training for this side of your body, only stretch balance conditioning.
how many training reps? it can vary, you don't want to strain, you want to train. this is important. if something feels like its too much, don't do it. go VERY slow, take it easy, and don't do this if yer not up to it physically or mentally (too tired, sick, stressed out over something, etc). if you do too much, too soon, you will tear down instead of break down and build up. and as we age, we need to slow down, do things easier and for longer periods of time.
for the average person, inside of a month you will be able to easily handle 5 to 8 pounds more holding weight. inside of two months it could be as much as 15 or more pounds of additional holding weight.
this has nothing to do with your physical build or current state of strength. this is a repetitive muscle isometric isolation program and must be done daily or all bets are off. it has helped me (in my advancing years) to continue to hold a 55# bow with very little effort. i know, i know - not a "heavy weight" bow, but for me it means the difference between the 55# i enjoy to having to go down to 45#.
this exercise can also be done with a simple "rubber band" - a bicycle inner tube. so for you white collar desk jockeys, there's no excuse not training to keep in shape with yer current holding weight, or work on holding more weight.
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Howdy
I shoot heavy warbows with a group here in AZ
we train and strengthen ourselves using bicycle
inner tubes looped around a pole or tree..
we vary the height of the tubes on the tree/pole to simulate the angles we use to arc in our arrows accurately at distance.
the bows i have vary from 120#s to 170#s and there are several members who use over 200# bows..
Cochise
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I do not think it is a good idea to EVER play with your anchor point, not in practice , not in training , not ever. Your anchor point is soo important to keep constant! some experts say you have to something as little as 50 times to make or break a habit. If you manage to mess up your muscle memory on where your anchor point is ,it can cost you months of training to get it back.
A while back I had a request from a friend for a 65# bow and I am a 45# shooter so I considered that to be a heavy bow to me. I told the friend it would be a few extra months before I could get him his bow because I do not shoot 65# bows.
As soon as I know he wanted the bow I picked up a 50# bow I had and started shooting it till I was as accurate with it as I was my daily shooter. I kept moving up in 5# increments until I could shoot that bow as well as my 45# bow. To move up 20# in weight took me about 2.5 months and I kept borrowing bows from friends because I did not have anything over 55#. I am not back down to the upper 40's again but I think i could move back up in weight much quicker this time, having done it once.
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Originally posted by rmorris:
I do not think it is a good idea to EVER play with your anchor point, not in practice , not in training , not ever. Your anchor point is soo important to keep constant! some experts say you have to something as little as 50 times to make or break a habit. If you manage to mess up your muscle memory on where your anchor point is ,it can cost you months of training to get it back.
...
what you describe is not at all true. you haven't tried it or you would not have made yer post.
the second hold point is not a real "anchor point", it's a stop point so you don't pull any more or any less, and you are not aiming. you do maintain form (stance, shoulders, bow arm, draw arm, head angle, etc) - this is the part you don't want to untrain. yer just pulling primarily with your back muscles.
this is not a new training method, i did not invent it, it's been used for at least half a known century by archers world wide. extremely young asian archers are trained in this method using rubber bands, for a very long time before they're even allowed to draw a bow, and they are collectively probably the best target archers on planet earth.
give it a go - you do need to do it to understand what it's about and the effect it has on your ability to hold heavier weights at a true anchor and/or to hold for increased periods of time (as needed for target archery = watch the nbc olympics vids - most of the men are holding 50# or more for as much as 10 seconds or longer without any body or bow movement, dittos for the ladies).
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
[QB] I'd like to add....it does NOT take a big, or strong, or stout person to draw heavy bows. Its all in training and technique.
I remember guys at the gym that were serious weight lifters and body builders that competed. They saw my 80# bow in the truck one day and wanted to have a go at it and not ONE of them could pull it even close to anchor. When I pulled it back to anchor about 8 times they thought it was a trick. One guy was even looking for a 'switch' on my bow. :goldtooth: :jumper:
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Shoot as heavy as you can accurately shoot. Up to the individual behind the bow. What is your dedication factor? What is your conditioning factor? You get out of it what you put in it. I like heavy for hunting.
That's just me
Good hunting!
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I like this post. Gonna stick with my higher poundage bows.
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You make a great point Rob, when children who have never touched a bow are about to start shooting it is a great idea to have them pull rubber bands to get strong enough, but I believe they are training to be target archers not hunters. I think this form revolves around hunting and target archery and hunting with a bow are worlds apart. In target archery you have all the time in the world to make sure your form is perfect, you become nearly robotic. I can't recall any hunting experiences when I was able to stand up, stand up straight and double check my form. Hunting involved adrenaline and usually many variables including tight spaces, abnormal positions and sometimes unusual canting of the bow, target archery does not. When I am in a hunting position, I do not always have time to think about everything, so my anchor point better be there. Holding an artificial anchor point for 3 seconds or as long as I can is bound to cause problems in hunting situations because I know every hunting shot I take no matter the game the adrenaline makes me feel like the bow weight is next to nothing and you are telling me under these hunting circumstances I would never overdraw or come to a bad anchor if you do this technique on a regular basis? Please take this as food for thought before you go out and change how you shoot. I believe Rob and myself gave similar advice; Rob recommends using your existing bow and overdrawing to strengthen yourself, I recommend getting a different bow that is heavier so that you do not have to change anything that could change your shooting...If you are planning on moving up in weight you will need a new bow anyways...
Rob, these exercises that have mentioned you say they are a " training method", Training method implies to me , becoming a better bow shooter not moving up in weight. Are these techniques you talk about designed to create a better shooter or move up in weight?
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Originally posted by rmorris:
.... Are these techniques you talk about designed to create a better shooter or move up in weight?
ralph, yer making mountains outta mole hills, and i respectfully take great exception with yer remark that aligns the technique i've described with "target archery", or inferring that i don't know this is a trad bowhunting forum.
pulling yer bow beyond yer draw length is a super simple conditioning exercise that, without the need to spend money on special gear, allows your body to get used to holding more bow weight. there are other advantages. the bottom line is it's pretty much a no-brainer, been doing it for decades, it works. don't theorize about it 'til you've tried it.
nor am i advocating that this is the only way to build up for heavy bows. it's just one easy technique.
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Sorry I don't have any secrets like the other guys do. I like Steve's workout regimen, and Rob's seems like a very inexpensive way to get the job done. For me, I just kept getting used bows that were 5-10 pounds heavier than what I had been shooting.. I didn't really try to go up in weight. I just wanted to make it easier to draw the bows that I had when I was cold and stiff in a treestand. The going up in weight was a side-effect. After awhile, I realized that I was shooting bows heavy enough to kill a buffalo, which what I had always wanted to do. I kept on shooting the heavier weights until I got the chance. I now shoot them for the same reasons that I used to, but like shooting them just for their sake along. I like knowing that I can shoot a setup that is strong enough to get through the largest boars shield, even if I don't always chose to hunt with that heavy of a setup. I know that you should shoot the heaviest that you feel confident with, but I like to shoot all of my bows, and I don't take anything with me hunting that I am not sure will get the job done. I was lucky to have some dealings with Leo Markert who helped me out with some bows that would be considered light by his standards, but were heavy for me.
Here is a trick you might try, although I haven't done it. Get some light rubber banding/tubing like people use for physical thereapy. Experiment how long a piece needs to be to give you between 5-10 pounds at your draw when stretched, then tie a similar piece (will need to be longer for the knots) to the bowstring and riser (or make a loop for the palm of your hand) and practice drawing that way. This way you can keep your same draw length and not have to buy another bow right away, though I suspect that doing it Rob's way would not cause any problems. Whatever you decide to do, good luck.
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I shot heavy bows for a long time ... and occasionally break one out for some "holding exercises for strength training .
My years with heavy weight longbows and recurves led to target panic and shoulder issues ... both of which will follow me around for ever .How I wish that I'd used them more sensibly , and wityh some of the techniques described here
I love pulling big bows , and still have one for whenever I make another Buff hunt ...
But my advice would be take your time , do it properly and if possible do with a purpose in mind .
I don't subscribe to the theory that 50 lbs wil kill everything on the planet just like I don't subscribe to having to pull 70# to get the job done on most game ...
There is a happy medium in poundage , just like there is ways to achieve heavy bow pulling ... take your time, listen to your body .
What Rob was talking about is exactly the same as what Paul Brunner always alluded to for pulling big weights and its a fine technique that IMHO lets you continue shooting your curent gear without the associated potential problems of pulling big weights continually without the strength and conditioning to do so without injury or loss of shot control.
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The timing of this thread is really ironic.Just a few weeks ago, I decided to break out my heavier bow. I used to shoot this 78# bow effortlessly, as it was the only longbow I had. I was warmed up and only shot a few arrows but my left shoulder still has not healed completely. The moral is LISTEN to these guys who say to go slow and carefully build up over time. I can almost pull my regular weight bow now, which is good because the season is close at hand.
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Lately I have been doing what Rob suggests, pulling past the anchor, but the bows I use may have a limited draw, so I am careful that I only go an inch or inch and a half past my draw. I should point out that the bows I am using are two 64 pound Schulz longbows and I draw them together at the same time. Now I wonder who is going to jump on me for having two strings in one hand and two bows in the other, but I do it both left and right handed to maintain some muscle balance. I also do slow motion heavy butterflies on my weight bench to help keep the shoulders centered in the sockets, along with a couple of other dumbbell shoulder and arm exercises. This reminds me that I have to get back at it, I hurt my neck when out craning my neck looking through the finder scope of my dobsonian telescope and was told to take it easy for a week or so by my chiropractor, the week is up time to play again.
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My heavy bow rips the string out off fingers and I don't have to delicately finesse the release.
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my bow just feels like it belongs to me almost natural my shoulders are so used to 72# i dont start feeling it till im holding 5+ seconds
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One thing I have done to improve strength is increase the number of shots in a row. Don't take breaks between the shots and you'll be surpised how much faster your muscle will fatigue versus shooting 1-4 arrows in a row and then going to retrieve them. Combine that with longer hold times and you'll quickly build the muscle necessary for heavier bows.
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I make sure I'm warmed up and ready, then very slowly take my time through the draw and feeeeeel my back engage and hold...then pull through...
Feel and visualize the weight and the muscles working...
and do it a bunch of times. Wears you out fast...
But then a normal swing draw is effortless.
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My advice is to separate practice from conditioning. Shooting heavy bows can lead to a lot of problems....and Ben alluded to them, and I feel a lot of folks "overdo" their practice regimens.
Bowhunting DEMANDS confidence in your abilities, and practice with too tired muscles CAN lead to bad habits, injuries, and a serious lack of concentration on the shot itself.
It doesn't take shooting a hundred arrows daily to keep in shape. I shoot every other day, and usually not more than 20 or 30 shots at a time....and I shoot them one at a time, and then retrieve each one, to get the most out of EVERY shot that I can...rather than feel like I have to shoot some predetermined number of arrows or I will "lose it". You won't.
Once you work up....and take your time, BTW, it's easily maintained. Then adjust your practice to fit your goals. Also, you will find that "rested" muscles will be able to pull more weight easier than sore ones. So take it slow...maintain "control", and don't overdo it. That's what works for me.
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What worked for me was going up 10#s and 'working out' with it....both right an left handed.
I drew the bow to anchor 3 sets of 8 reps every other day....once I got to do that comfortable....I did the same thing but would hold at full draw for 3 seconds.....then once I could do that comfortably I'd hold to 6 seconds.
Then I would move to 4 sets of 10 the same regiment. Only once I could do that did I start shooting the bow at targets.
Remember, that's both right an left handed.
If you are going to do it correctly, it takes time and effort and sticking to what ever program you chose. Once you get through with your regiment and you start shooting targets, you will be amazed at how effortlessly it will be.
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OK....now as to WHY I like to hunt with heavier bows.....
One, because they fit me better. Being that since I've shot bows since I was 8, handling heavier weights seems 'normal' to me. If I shoot a really light bow, its kind of 'blase' to me. I almost just 'go through the motions' instead of 'getting into' the shot. I 'get into' my alignment better and I get better performance from my release. I am more accurate with a bow that fits me, i.e. 60-70#s.
I also like to move a decent weight arrow at a decent speed, and I like to move a broadhead with a lot of cutting surface though my animals. Being that most of my hunting here in the east is thick with not a long line of site, I want to let the air out of their lungs 'right now'. And, I like to have two big nasty holes for blood trailing that sometimes never makes the ground.(or if it does, you can't see it) Meaning there's a lot of side swiping of tall grass, palmettos, weeds, vines, and small diameter saplings.
I have found that shooting an arrow of around 600 grains, give or take 25 grains, moving around 180-185 FPS gets me two holes most all the time unless the off shoulder or leg bone is hit....and if that does occur, that shot will put down the animal post haste anyway, either in site or I will hear it go down.
I have never had a concern with penetration, even with 3 and 4 blades, and have had consistent pass throughs on hogs up to 300#s. I shoot those heads through deer like they aren't even there.
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This thread has been a real eye opener for me and I am glad that it was reopened. THANK YOU Ric
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Terry is right about getting everything in line. When I got my HH Big 5 at 65lbs, I hurt my drawing shoulder a couple of times and was worried that the bow was too heavy for me. I stopped shooting until the soreness went away and started to do some shoulder exercises with some weights. The exercises helped, but I soon figured out why I was hurting my shoulder. I use the swing draw and realized that if I drew too far before getting my elbow up (ie in line) I was actually drawing with my shoulder muscle. I made a conscience effort to correct this and now 65lbs actually feels light!
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This thread is very helpful guys! I think I'm gonna start bumping up the weight with the advice offered here.... I love a challenge!
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Being a lightweight at 150 lbs soaking wet and generally shooting bows 65 - 80 lbs, the most important common message ive seen on here is GO SLOW AND BE CAREFUL !
Those of you thinking of shooting heavy, read the threads above and take heed, there is no such thing as overnight success, but for those with the drive and dedication to go slow and take care your goals are within your grasp.
IMHO i think that a lot of folks underestimate themselves and there ability to shoot a heavier bow, but with Proper and Careful Conditioning, most anyone can up there poundage if that is their goal.
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imo, most everyone has the ability to pull 60 to 80 pounds or more, but few have the desire, perseverance and dedication to attain that goal, and in a proper manner that won't cause physical harm in the process. there is no quick shortcut to jump from a 50# stick bow to a 70# stick bow quickly. but it is absolutely doable for most folks. don't come without hard work and some smarts.
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Rob, you are not wrong my friend.
In my personal challenge to go heavier i went an average of 5 lb increments, working with each until my shooting , strength and confidence led me to move on.
Ive got quite a collection of bows to show for it, but more importantly ive never hurt myself in my personal challenge to go heavy because, i went slow and let my body tell me when i could move on, or stand pat until my body was ready.
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You say you can build 10 pounds of muscle in 2 months?
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Going back to the original question posted here.
You can either do it, or you can't.
You can either not try. . .
. . .or you can see what your body was designed to do.
It's about as simple as that.
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When I started shooting recurve I had 40# limbs. When I worked up to 50# limbs, the speed difference was really nice, I would like to go higher. I will never want to go lighter. I used the heavy bowfit and a lot of stretching to get me there. But the question is what weight can I shoot ACCURATELY? Everyone has a different answer.
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Very simply, I want to shoot a heavy arrow as fast as I can, so that if I am off the mark just a bit ie into a shoulder, I want it to still penetrate. I shoot as much as I can accurately!
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The only thing I hate about a fast bow is that it forces my head down too much towards the nock at full draw. So I dog'em down a little with heavier heads for approx. 11- 12gpp. With most commercially available wood shafts or front loaded carbons, 750-850g is about as much arrow weight I can build with out going to extremes. 70# bow shooting 12gpp, watch out now.
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Great thread!.... :campfire:
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Glad to see some folks giving out real info on sensible training and common sense.
Not to glad to see some folks touting wreckless behavior in training. Maybe we are finding out who the real wanna-be is.
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the penetration of a heavy arrow (700 grains plus) from a heavy bow really has to be seen to be believed.....
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There's been some great advice here and I'm chomping at the bit to get my hands on a heavy Hill Style to start training with..... I just wish that something would come up on the classifieds.
Thanks for the input everyone, glad I posted this thread and that so many have volunteered their insight!
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Thanks for the alerts guys, no sense in someone making fun of others, and labeling them, that offered up safe and legitimate ways to train, nor does it make sense to proclaim a 'grip it and rip it' macho man mentality that could cause someone injury.
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rossco i sent you a pm on an 80# hillstyle
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Another benefit of a heavy bow/arrow combination is a product of the increased penetration. Everyone strives to have sharp broadheads, but some are more fanatical than others. If you are shooting a heavier setup, you can get away with file or wheelie sharpened in almost all cases. This is great if you use your arrows for shooting squirrels, armadillos, multiple hogs, etc.. and want to field sharpen without the hassle of having to haul your KME sharpener with you into the field.
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Age, diet, and general health have a lot to do with how much strength one can build and maintain. A young person that has a good protein and green vegetable diet will do better than someone that lives on soda pop and fast food crap. The older we get the more careful we need to be about how much draw weight we can maintain and how we exercise to keep the strength levels up. For me right now, I can shoot a 65 pound bow of either hand all day, but when I tried my 78 pound lefty for about 80 shots, I got sloppy and found myself struggling a bit. I made the same mistake with my heavier right hander a while back. One needs to know how much weight one can manage after sitting idol for a period. When I hunted with 90 pound bows, I made a few practice draws about every five or ten minutes to keep warmed up and loose. That has its advantages, if someone has a bow that is super easy to draw, loosening up with practice draws is easy to forget to do, when drawing on a 25 yard shot at a buck it is not a good time to be reminded that one is cold and stiff.
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Mr. Dean, I would love to be able to shoot 80 shots with a 78# bow when I am retired. You are doing awesome.
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I need to add that I am not a 3d shooter. I shot one round with my 70+ and was tired at the end. I am not physically built to pull that much weight for long periods but I sure as hell can do it a couple dozen.....easily.
Don't be a hero...listen to your body.
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SUCCESS! Just picked up my first 'heavier bow' off the classifieds earlier today. It's a 68@27 Schulz Granpa - exactly what I was after!
Thanks to Tippit for offering me the opportunity to take it off his hands for him.
Can't wait to get my hands on it and get to work on this new challenge. Thanks for all the adice gents!
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Great advice here guys, take it slow when starting, listen to your body and most importantly to me: HAVE FUN!
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:campfire:
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Switched back to shooting longbows again this year. I'm having a great time and shooting them better than ever.
I have a Howard Hill Big Five that's been on the rack for too long. It's 80# at my draw and has just been too heavy for a lot of years.
(http://www.tradgang.com/mem-imgs/squatdraw1.jpg)
About a month or so ago I got it down and strung it up... just about piddled getting that done.
Flexing it I had a hard time believing how easy it had been to shoot all those years ago. I vowed to shoot it again. (http://www.tradgang.com/upload/charlie/Ahundredsquirrels.jpg)
At first I could only move the string a few inches. Gradually I got to a 12" draw, then 20". I never strained or tried to force it trying to draw because at 65 years of age I don't intend hurt myself. I also always did my "workout" AFTER shooting my regular weight bow for warm up.
Last night I got the bow back to within an inch of anchor and the draw is becoming much more natural.
I'm allowing myself to release the arrow now and expect full draw in a week or two.
My point is whether you are building up to 50 or 60 or whatever. Slow and steady will get the job done.
I may not hunt with the heavy bow again, but I can tell you my shooting with my regular weight bow has gotten better and easier.
:thumbsup:
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80# sure is stiff aint it charlie? it does get easier pretty quick with dedication ( speaking of i need to string up my 80 and do my workouts...)
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Thanks for keeping this on topic.....
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That is awesome to hear Mr. Lamb.Slow and steady is definitely the ticket!
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i must say when used properly the bowfit and the hill method work wonderfully i do 10 reps every 15 minute break i get at work and spend my lunch streching and shooting mental arrows ( getting into form and mentally visualizing the bow and arrow and visualizing the arrow flying to its intended target
i also act like its a mental arrow when im really shooting
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Got the Big Five to full draw last night and although I'm not totally into my back muscles with it I'm surprisingly accurate.
Somewhere around here I've got a 70# selfbow that I may string and use to work with. That would have been the smart thing to do from the beginning.
The advantages of shooting a 600+ gr. arrow in the 175-180 fps. range are many. Extended effective ranges due to flatter trajectory, increased penetration with the additional momentum and a "rip it off your fingers" smooth release make it all good if you can truly handle the weight.
A quick story... hunting whitetails in eastern Wyoming years ago I had a nice buck walk into my shooting lane at 15 yards. I'd made a slight noise as he approached and he was alert but didn't seem to edgy.
My bow was a 75# Howatt Hunter pushing a 630 gr. aluminum arrow with Zwickey Delta 2 blade. It sent that arrow through a chrono at 203 fps.
I released the arrow at the broadside buck and he reacted violently to the sound of the string. He got turned completely away from me before the arrow hit. (I was hunting from the ground)
The razor sharp broadhead entered the inside of the left ham, cut the femoral artery, sliced through the intestines, the liver, lung and the top of the heart and exited in front of the right shoulder.
And that's why I used heavy bows for so long.
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:bigsmyl:
:campfire:
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For what it's worth, the Howatt is the bow in my avatar.
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/charlie/cloudydraw.jpg)
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Originally posted by Charlie Lamb:
.... The razor sharp broadhead entered the inside of the left ham, cut the femoral artery, sliced through the intestines, the liver, lung and the top of the heart and exited in front of the right shoulder.
And that's why I used heavy bows for so long.
:D :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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I had many recent injuries from a head on car accident (7 herniated discs, fractured sternum and broken bones), torn rotator cuff in my bow arm, tennis elbow in both elbows and arthritis in both shoulders.
I had to step down in weight quite a bit until I over came these injuries.
I wanted to work out to increase accuracy at first by making my current bow easy to draw and hold when hunting. I didn't start out to shoot heavy bows again.
Therefore I used this exercise with the Formaster to increase bow strength so I could be more bow strong at my current hunting weight.
I used a bow 5# heavier than my hunting bow.
http://www.texasarchery.org/Documents/FMaster/formaster_exercises.htm
At this time I didn't have the desire to increase bow draw weight since my hunting bow was 60# and I was working out with 65#.
By doing this exercise I eliminated my drawing arm tennis elbow. Until I did this exercise I never realized that I wasn't drawing the bow back with my shoulder and back muscles. My tendonitis in my drawing arm was from using my fingers, wrist, forearm and bicep to draw the bow. Once I realized this, I concentrated on keeping a relaxed drawing hand, wrist, forearm and bicep and drawing with my back and shoulder. This not only eliminated my tennis elbow, it made me a much better shot. Using my back and shoulder muscles properly to draw the bow in of itself made me more bow strong and able to shoot heavier weight bows. In addition it trained me to ensure I used back tension at my anchor to prevent arrow creep and short drawing the bow.
Then I went to Bob Wesley's. Bob corrected my form with my bow arm. He taught me to keep a low and forward bow arm shoulder, a bent elbow and modified where I hold the bow in my bow hand. This eliminated tennis elbow in my bow arm and the pain in my bow arm shoulder from prior injuries. It also dramatically improved my shooting, to where I shoot better now than I did before all my injuries.
Once my form was straightened out and all the pain was gone I continued to shoot my 60#.
I had a collection of Hill longbows. I posted in the HH thread. One was a special one and was 71#. Everyone asked me how it shot. I went out and shot and it felt like it was in the 56# range to me. I thought the weight may be wrong since it was reworked by John Schulz to Howard Hills specs for Bob Wesley. I had an 80# Hill that the first time I shot gave me a cyst in my bow arm wrist. I thought I would compare the 71# to 80#. When I drew and shot the 80# it was comfortable and I was shocked I could shoot it.
I am 58 and had many injuries over the years that disrupted my shooting. I would have never dreamed that at my age and after all my injuries I could shoot a heavy bow again. In fact I can shoot heavier bows now than when I was a young bull.
By exercising using the exercise above and correcting my form, I found that I had gotten very bow strong now. I started shooting 80# every other day 73# on off days. My hunting bow is 73# now. When I go back to my 60#, I feel that the release almost seems like a delayed reaction now.
I feel to improve your bow strength, while maintaining and improving accuracy without injury, is to first straighten out any form issues you have.
In my case I believe that if I first attempted to start drawing heavier bows, without fixing form problems I had I would have amplified the injuries I already had due to poor form.
By using the above exercise you train yourself to draw with your back muscles which automatically allows you to draw heavier bows and keep a relaxed drawing arm reducing the chance of injury.
My advice would be to take care of any current injuries first, then straighten out any form problems you may have, followed by a low and slow exercise program.
I like shooting heavy bows because I hunt, enjoy the flat trajectory and cleaner release. In my case you wouldn't believe me when I say this, but when I shoot a lighter bow my bow arm shakes like crazy, yet when I shoot heavy everything is locked in solid. I guess from all the injuries the heavy weight is the glue to keep me from coming apart at the seams.
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I can say this much....even with a bad bow shoulder, drawing the bow with proper form has made it much eaiser to draw an additional 10#.
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I left one thing out in my prior post. If you look at the thread I posted it says the following - "REMEMBER - STAMINA CAN BE GAINED AND MAINTAINED, BUT NOT STORED".
This statement makes me believe that as in all sports we should maintain an exercise program to maintain and gain strength. Stamina can't be stored, so if we maintain bow strength through a exercise routine, even if you shoot 30# it will make 30# feel like 20# when you do shoot. This will make shooting more enjoyable and I believe increase accuracy and help prevent injuries at the same time.
Since I make more mistakes than most and am not the sharpest knife in the draw, I thought I would pass on something that helped me tremendously. I struggled for 10 years trying to get back my form and shooting. This exercise and Bob Wesley were the ticket for me.
I used everything to try to figure out my problems including video taping myself. It all looked good to me. The best thing I ever did was go to Bob Wesleys. When you have someone else evaluate your form that really knows what they are doing, like Bob Wesley, you eliminate years of trial and error and even after years of trial and error you may not have it right.
Plus just being around Bob is a pleaseure and a wonderful experience. He is the perfect example of a true Southern Gentleman. Bob has so much archery history behind him, you can listen and enjoy the stories all day long.
If you go make sure you take your bow with you when you get your arrows! My bow seemed to disappear every time I went to get mine.
Gil
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Great thread guys! I now believe I can move up to 65 or 70 pounds, or more. Very encouraging!
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Nice posting Gil!!!
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I love to shoot my light bows and do so regularly, however, you're more likely find me with one of my 60+ pound bows in hand. Especially when hunting. The clean release and subsequent explosion is a sweet candy I cannot resist and something my lighter bows simply can't match. It is almost as if I can actually feel the transfer of energy from my muscles to the heavy arrow and finally the target.
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Most of my bows are in the low fifties because that is what I am typically capable of shooting accurately, and, for that matter, what I can safely get out of the wood I like when I am making a bow. I am working on strength to handle a heavier bow because I believe it will clean up minor release issues, allow me to shoot a heavier arrow with similar ballistic and flight characteristics, and ultimately improve performance in the event of a "whoops" shot. It hasn't happened much, but hey, it could. For what I do, 45-55 lbs is plenty. But why not add a few while I can if I can? Then I can back off in later years if I need to.
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Originally posted by Swinestalker:
It is almost as if I can actually feel the transfer of energy from my muscles to the heavy arrow and finally the target.
That's ALMOST my take and 'feeling' I get. Kinda cool seeing someone else say almost the same thing....
I can feel the transfer of energy from me, to my bow, and at release the transfer to the arrow, and the arrow transferring at impact.
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Mr Lamb...I appreciate your post, and Gil's about working up......
I had rotator cuff surgery in mid June and am now almost at the 3 month point in recovery...so I'm realizing fully how much stamina and strength you can lose in so short a time while recovering from having tendons reattached and stuff ground out.......
I am shooting bows again and it feels wonderful, but my Dave Johnson is still in the rack waiting. I'm starting to pull it ever so slightly back, increasing over time.
Won't be long and I can shoot it again....there is definitely a working up going on...trying to get that strength and stamina back, but it'll happen.
Can't wait to shoot that masterpiece again. But I will take my time, however long that takes. It's too important to heal properly and not do stupid things cause I'm in a hurry....
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I am confident that I was able to bring home the elk I shot last week as a direct result of the heavier poundage, the extra benefit of when things go wrong.
When I shot, the elk whirled to go back done the hill. That turned my nice broadside opportunity into a poor quartering toward shot. A lot of penetration is lost on a moving target because it causes torque and extra friction on the arrow. The arrow still managed to push through the front of the shoulder and into his vitals. I cringe to think of how that may have turned out with a lighter bow. 1+ for heavy bows. We always plan for the ideal opportunities but it's nice when the horsepower is there to deal with the bad ones.
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Eric....how many 'new and heavier' bows have you bought in the 8 months you've been shooting trad?
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Being a somewhat newbie here I will through in my 2 cents. My fist recurve was 61 lbs. Bad idea for me for a first bow but I eventually adjusted and was able to shoot it fairly well.
I come from the G. Fred school of instinctive shooting. When I hit my anchor point the arrow goes unless the situation changes in mid draw. That being said Fred talked quite a bit about holding an anchor point and the tendency to relax your bow arm and the draw collapses. That is where the trouble is for me. With a lighter bow I have less of a tendency to "pull through the shot" I really have to focus on the bow arm. I think the natural tendency with a heavier bow is to push/pull through the shot hence it is more accurate. I am now shooting between 51 and 55 lbs which is not overly light or overly heavy for me. It is light enough for me to hold it if I have to but heavy enough to make me pull through the shot.
After I get warmed up the shots groups tend to loosen up and I have to focus on my form more but the first shot is what counts for me. I focus on the first shot of every practice session. I am not usually warmed up enough for my draw to collapse and for the most part I am happy with my results. I am more accurate with a 60-62 lb bow but I do not feel I can shot from uncomfortable situations very well nor can I hold it long before the shot is lost. I guess it is different for everyone but I am a big fan of Fred's push/pull theory and it has served me well.
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As a light-bow shooter (50 lb), I have to say I think this thread is invaluable. I'm thankful to the mods for cleaning it up and keeping it going. While I don't think I'll ever shoot truly heavy bows (70+ pounds), the tips and strategies for moving up in weight here are excellent - I'm bookmarking this for when I want to move up to a 55 or 60 lb bow.
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This is certainly an enjoyable thread, I'm glad it's gone on so long. Really great advice has been contributed along the way and my 68@27 Schulz Granpa is due to arrive any day so I can put it into practice....
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I have had a great and wonderful time reading this thread also. Many tanks to the Mods! Ric Mitchell
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You are welcome for the clean up....there was cleaning from both sides.....some where just chest beating from the heavy bow side.
Bows are tools....just like arrows and broadheads....and one size does not fit all individuals or all game.
I see folks argue that you don't need a heavy bow, but they turn right around and argue elsewhere that someone needs a heavier arrow. Sometimes you need both depending on what you are hunting.
Some also say its all subjective from one man to another, I disagree TOTALLY......you CAN shoot heavier IF you want to....you HAVE to have the DESIRE and COMMIT...what you DO NOT HAVE TO HAVE is a big frame, be stout, or 6'8's to do so.
And thanks to Longbowman for backing me up and proving that you don't have to be a brute to draw heavy bows with the video of his son.....
CLICK HERE FOR 93# Actually drawn to FULL DRAW by a 135# young man. (http://s131.photobucket.com/albums/p314/longbowman_bucket/?action=view¤t=100_0005.mp4)
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My 68@27 Schulz Granpa arrived today marking my first foray into the world of heavy bows. Seems like a great one to start with due to the string follow making it so easy on the draw. I did notice the cleaner release immediately but I'm gonna spend some time over the weekend getting to know this bow and see the differences....
The input provided here has really helped me get into my back and drawing is now much easier as a result. Thanks guys for the inspiration to give this new challenge a try!
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Enjoy that sweet bow... Heavier bows seem to be contagious to me and you can usually find "heavy" beautiful bows for cheap.
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I couldn't agree more. I never thought Traditional Archery should be easy. Its a martial skill and always will be. You can shoot a heavy bow, IF YOU HAVE THE MOTIVATION!.
As I expressed on the "advise from archery elders thread", a vast majority of people seem to always be searching for the lightest bow possible, to kill something with.
It doesnt take a super bodybuilding routine to shoot traditional, it just takes steady work. Yes, as many of the experts on this forum has repeatedly expressed, you can kill everything in North American with a 45 pound bow, but, I dont see you facing a grizzly with one. we need to respect the game we hunt, and strive to use the most bow we can handle, that means putting in the work, not always looking for ways to make it easier. IMHO.
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I didnt read but the first page comments and I have one comment myself.......Mark Baker for President!
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After 50 plus years of shooting I can say there is a time when conditioning and shooting every day will not let you shoot heavy weight bows. I am a small man and the heaviest bow I could shoot well was a Hill longbow that pulled 63 pounds. I killed my first deer with it many years ago.
As in life every thing starts to wear out, shoulders start to get arthirtis from repition no matter what weight you shoot. I shoot a self bow now and couldn't tell you what weight it is but I have to ice and heat my shoulder after a 3D round.
I think that shooting heavy is good for those who can handle it, when it starts to hurt than start lowering the poundage.
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I've really been enjoying shooting the Schulz so far. I don't notice the weight too much barring the fact that I don't hold at anchor as long. VERY enjoyable bow to shoot and I really l,e that I can shoot heavy hunting arrows on such a flat trajectory.
One thing I have notice is that I can't bareshaft tune as easily. This may be due to the bow being cut 1/4 before centre but I was wondering if it might be due to more significant body movement after the shot (as a result of the more significant holding weight).....
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I shot ~75# at one time, and shot it well.
Get sick. loose over 150 lbs. in 3 months and your world changes, a lot.
When I tried to get back to the bows it was all I could do to draw 50#.
Now I warm up with 30#, a few shots at 45" and then 10 shots at 63".
I do this at least 4 days per week.
I have to contend with permanent nerve damage so my goal is to be able to hunt this season at ~40#.
That said, I was always at my best around 65#@ 30".
I agree with most here, shoot the heaviest you can shoot accurately. The release will be cleaner and the cast will make up for some ranging errors.
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When I had to drop in bow weights, the first thing I did was to jerk the bow back almost as fast as the arrow shot it forward. When I got that problem under control I noticed lots of little things that I did not think about before while I was shooting, not a good thing. While now I am shooting fairly well with all of the weights, bows from 59 to the mid 60s seem to be the automatic weights, where I don't waste a lot of brain power on shooting. This article almost seems like Howard Hill was interviewed to get the facts, it is for athletes in general, but it applies to heavy bow shooters very well. http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-09-simple-routine-athletes-pressure.html
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I just traded for a 72# and usually shoot a 67#. I have also shot my wife's 43# quite a bit to help her get it set up. Anyone can tell that there is a more than signifiant decrease in effective power. The folks that say there is not need to shoot the two setups back to back. No question at all.
On a side note, I really get a kick out of the guys, mostly wheel bow shooters, who grab my bow, try to pull it, then tell me that the draw length is too short. I just smile and nod. :thumbsup:
God Bless,
Nathan
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That article is pretty interisting, I am gonna try it.
God Bless,
Nathan
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I'm still holding at 55#. Just about the time this thread was taking off, I pulled out my 78# bow and shot it about 10 times. No problem, so the next day, I did the same thing. Messed up my shoulder and it is not back to full strength yet. Mostly, I hunt with a 65# bow, but it is not yet fully comfortable, hence the 55#.
I thought I was going slow but obviously not. This is one of those "do as I say, not as I did" items. Build up slowly - probably more slowly than you think is necessary! Now when things get completely back to normal, I will begin again, but you can sure believe it will be a very slow work up this time around.
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Originally posted by Sam McMichael:
I'm still holding at 55#. Just about the time this thread was taking off, I pulled out my 78# bow and shot it about 10 times. No problem, so the next day, I did the same thing. Messed up my shoulder and it is not back to full strength yet. Mostly, I hunt with a 65# bow, but it is not yet fully comfortable, hence the 55#.
I thought I was going slow but obviously not. This is one of those "do as I say, not as I did" items. Build up slowly - probably more slowly than you think is necessary! Now when things get completely back to normal, I will begin again, but you can sure believe it will be a very slow work up this time around.
THANK YOU for posting this!!!.....this is EXACTLY why I REMOVED the post making fun of 'complicated routines and claiming just get a heavier bow and shoot it'. Just getting a heavier bow and shooting it can cause this very thing to happen. There is a method to the madness.
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Originally posted by Sam McMichael:
I'm still holding at 55#. Just about the time this thread was taking off, I pulled out my 78# bow and shot it about 10 times. No problem, so the next day, I did the same thing. Messed up my shoulder and it is not back to full strength yet. Mostly, I hunt with a 65# bow, but it is not yet fully comfortable, hence the 55#.
I thought I was going slow but obviously not. This is one of those "do as I say, not as I did" items. Build up slowly - probably more slowly than you think is necessary! Now when things get completely back to normal, I will begin again, but you can sure believe it will be a very slow work up this time around.
informative post and right on the money, sir! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Good advice, Terry. I'm 64 years old, 165 pounds soak and wet. I've settled on 45 pounds for my bows. I make BBO bows and a guy wanted a 60 pounder, it came in at 58 and he was fine with that. But I have to shoot these bows in before final sanding and sealing the wood. Usually a good 100 shots is sufficient for shooting in a new bow. Well I shot that 58 pounder and after about 40 shots I couldn't pull it much more. But I forced it and messed up my shoulder really bad on the next shot. That was the end of my bow shooting for about two months. Be careful with heavy bows.
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The problem with heavy bows is not actually a problem with the bows, it's the shooter. Seems to me a lot of people just shoot heavy bows so they can beat their chest about it, and don't give the bow the respect it deserves. All other things being equal, and heavy bow is definitely better than a light bow when hunting, but I feel like most people don't devote the proper time to build up their strength and form to be able to shoot heavy bows correctly. If you are straining AT ALL, or getting tired after a few minutes of shooting, you are probably overbowed. I know this because the first custom bow I bought was a 70# one I bought when I was young and dumb. I didn't do anything to work into it, just picked it up and started flinging arrows. I was young enough that I didn't hurt myself, but my shooting sucked and didn't improve until I dropped weight.
People say it all the time, but it seems like a lot of shooters still don't get it; the best draw weight is the ACCURATE one. If that is 30# for you, don't worry about it, shoot that and work up very slowly if you feel you must. You'll shoot better, and your joints will thank you.
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I have seen guys just jerk the heavy bows back like they are trying to rip its head off. I have shot heavy bows most of my life and think it would kill my shoulder to do that. I draw my bow slow and easy when practicing, just like I would in a hunting situation. Like was just posted, take care of your joints and don't be silly about shooting any bow, heavy or not.
God bless,
Nathan
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For those that are younger and have the testosterone kicking in and telling them to get a heavier bow, all of the stuff about building up a bit at a time is us older shooters giving kindly advice. Take it, it is important. When I shot 90 pound bows, I could shoot hundreds of arrows in a day, but I warmed up to them on a daily basis. I always took a few shots with a lighter bow. When out hunting, I would do some simple shoulder stretches and take my wife's 50 pound Hill and draw it a few times to get warmed up. I have found that there is an advantage of having bows with similar grips for the lighter build up bows. It is possible to have bow arm complications as well as drawing arm problems. In other words, if your goal is to go considerably heavier, pick a handle style and stick with it. Shooting a deep recurve grip in a light bow and then jumping to a Hill straight grip that 30 pounds heavier, you find that there are different muscles involved. I had a collection of Bear takedown limbs, but when I went to a heavy longbow, I could feel the damage pretty quick on my bow arm side. It is easier on the body if the step up bows would all be straight grip bows, if a heavy Hill style bow is in your plans. Buying used bows can save some money and there is nothing unmanly about admitting that perhaps that 80 pounder will have to take a back seat to the 65 pounder for hunting for the time being.
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I have bows of several weights to choose from. At my draw, they are about 47#, 48#, 65#, 68#, and 78#. I enjoy shooting my 47#-er most, because I like that bow the most. But I have also been shooting the 68#-er, a recurve. Although I shoot it very little, I can pick it up and shoot it more consistently and accurately... due to the heavier weight forcing a cleaner release, and in my case, because I think I don't overdraw it like I think I do the lighter bows.
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Love that signature line, Archie! Nothing like a good bit of sarcasm! :laughing:
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Thanks, Luke! I still chuckle when I read it myself!
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I am in a tree with my 95# Rogue for the first time today. Nice and warm out, and I was shooting it pretty well earlier today. Hope somethin gives me a chance to use it. I am only now, after around a year with this bow, at a point that I feel safe to hunt with it.
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Good luck Pat!
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Thanks for all the alerts guys..... I cleaned it up.
:campfire:
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I guess some folks just have a hard time reading and understanding the title of this thread. :( :( :(
Thanks again guys for the emails.....we are going to keep this topic on topic.
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How about some pics of some heavy bows and bow kills guys?
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I see I see. one week in a hotel, one week on a ship, one more week in another hotel, and one week traveling and I could not pull my 70lbs bow for another week. Had to work back into it.
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I've been recently shooting a long bow that is about 70# at my draw length a least couple times a week (mostly) weekends as part of my routine (usually shoot at least 4 times a week and try to make it to the gym on the other 3 days). When I do that I warm up with a bow fit exerciser and then shoot the Heavier bow 20-30 times - my middle weight bow 30+ and then my lightest bow 40+ times. What I've found is that my draw strength has improved - don't struggle with the heavy bow any more and my ability to draw and hold/shoot the lighter bows has improved dramatically. Also my accuracy has improved from what I believe is better form because I had to improve in that area to shoot the heavier bow with any degree of accuracy where I could be sloppier with the lighter bows in the past.
I'm 60years old next spring and about 170lbs...
><>>
Glenn
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I have also found that since picking up my first 'heavier bow' at the beginning of the month my form has been forced to improve greatly and I'm using my back more than ever before. I have moved into the new weight fairly easily and my accuracy has improved across the board as an added bonus.
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Originally posted by atatarpm:
I see I see. one week in a hotel, one week on a ship, one more week in another hotel, and one week traveling and I could not pull my 70lbs bow for another week. Had to work back into it.
I shoot mainly around 100# bows and own a few 50# bows also. I recently went on a round the world voyage for work and was away from my bows for 100 days. I exercised several times a week with a 30# kettle bell in hopes of lessening the recovery curve to full strength. I must report that I am stronger than I was and last night upon arriving home I had no trouble pulling the 100# bow to full draw. There was a little shake, but nothing a week of practice can't cure.
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Interesting thread guys...I shot 65lbs for many years and with a 30+" draw and my favorite 650gr cedars was quite confident I could kill whatever I shot at...Since I only hnt whitetails I didn't need all the weight.
So for the past 6-7 years I've shot bows in the low 50s.. Recently I took out an old home made 67pounder and although I tired after a dozen or so arrows, I'm sure I could build back up to it in short order.
I just don't know why I would since i'm only hunting whitetails and I have a hard time picking a spot on anything much past 25 yds away..
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John, I started this thread to see what guys enjoyed about shooting heavier draw weights and got plenty of great answers. For me, I hunt deer but always like to be ready for a last minute moose hunt if the opportunity presents but my bows were all of satisfactory weight for that eventuality.... When all was said and done it was the challenge that appealed most but I also discovered some unexpected benefits like better form and a cleaner release on the way....
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To answer the OP:
I like the cleaner release I get from the increased draw weight. I'm marginally more accurate with the heavies than the lighter bows. I agree with the poster that reasoned this is because of the increased practice on the road to getting comfy with it. I also like the idea of a one bow being able to tackle many different sizes of game. It's pretty amazing how much energy is retained (and distance is covered)after striking the ground while stumping giving high confidence in the penetration ability of the setup.
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ttt
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Pat i loved shooting your 78# Morrison Gen3 longbow at Stonewall!!! Dont forget i got dibbs on that dude & the Thunder Child!!!
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I have worked my way up to shooting 58# fairly comfortably, and have been toying with 65# lately. I find the heavier bows more accurate to shoot as my release is cleaner and the cast allows more foregiveness with ranging errors. Plus it just hits so hard how can you not enjoy shooting a heavy bow!!
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Barry, you shot that Morrison ILF very well. As you know, I have trouble parting with my bows, lol.
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I normally shoot bows in the mid-50's because of shoulder injuries that ultimately resulted in extensive surgery almost 7 years ago. But when hunting buffalo, a bow in the 70 pound range is about the minimum most of us think is required. This year I again began the months of building to get back to shooting a 70 pound bow for another buffalo hunt in Australia. It took about 3 months to get comfortable again at that weight. As long as my strength is good and fatigue has not set in, I can shoot a 70 pound bow more accurately than my normal weight bows. I shoot best with a hold of several seconds at my anchor point, so I have to be stronger than if I were "snap shooting." The stability of the incredibly strong limbs of my new Shrew Safari, along with the stability of my body being held firmly in place by the higher forces and the clean release of the string being ripped from my fingers all lend themselves to consistent form, arrow flight and shot placement. My heavy arrows fly like darts, especially when they weigh 1000 grains, with 500 of that in the brass insert and broadhead. I would like to have shoulders healthy enough to shoot a 70 pound bow all the time, but that's asking too much from this 60 year old, torn up body. Although I don't seem to be doing too much additional damage to my shoulders when shooting heavier bows, they feel sore after every long shooting session using more than about 60 pounds, so I'm sure the added poundage isn't doing my joints a lot of good. I love my heavier bows and recognize that for hunting some animals there simply is no option other than stepping up to more poundage that can launch heavy arrows at reasonable speeds.
I'm glad I'm not left-handed so I am not tempted to try to shoot Patrick Kelly's much heavier bows when we are together at the range!!!
Allan
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Okay now guys talk Arrows for the heavy bows what you like
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My favorite heavy arrow setup is the Arrow Dynamics Hammerhead Trad with 100 grain brass insert, aluminum collar, unibushing with g-nock, 4x4" fletching over a plastic wrap, and a heavy broadhead like the Tuffhead 300 with 100 grain adapter or a VPA 300 or 325 grain 2 blade. Make sure to use a high quality adapter on the Tuffhead, because the broadhead is great but the adapters can be junky soft steel that bend easily. No such problems with the VPA heads because they are one-piece and require no separate adapter to screw into the inserts. Using the Tuffhead 300 with a 100 grain adapter, my 31" arrow weighs in right at 1000 grains and flies like a dart. I used this combination with my 70#@29.5" Shrew Safari and got great penetration on both an Asiatic buffalo and a Brahma-mix scrub bull. I shot the scrub bull at 50 yards and a second time at 40 yards with full penetration to the far ribs on both shots. I had similar penetration on the buffalo with a 27 yard shot. All shots were generally broadside through the ribs behind the shoulder. The tapered design of the AD shafts allows wide spine tolerance to accommodate a broad range of point weights and bow poundages. Just ask Terry Green about his experiences with AD arrows.
Allan
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Chuck, that pic is from a massive bull that Allan shot the year before the trip he is talking about. He did an extensive write-up on that hunt regarding shot placement as well as post kill testing.
Allan, sorry I missed your call. Crappy cell service at my place. Good luck with the start of deer season on monday. I am in the middle of a 25 day straight stretch of work, and will only get out for a few hours here and there. I will give you a call soon.
Arrows. I have some AD setups, but use mostly gt kinetic 200's cut to 30.5" with 100 grain brass inserts and 225 grain tuffheads and 125 grain broadhead inserts when shooting my morrison ilf rig 82#@29". If I cut them 30", I can use the 300 grain tuffheads and get arrow weight of 900 grains. I should say that these arrows are way too stiff for my Morrison Dakota that is only 3 pounds lighter because the ilf riser is cut remarkably far past center.
My buddy, Dave Sisamis, just made me some wood arrows up that fly well out of my HH Rogue that is 95#@29". He used 110-115 spined douglas fir shafts, cut to 30", and they very nicely with both 250 grain big 3 broadheads and 300 grain tuffheads, although the ferrule size of the tuffhead is much better suited to the 23/64" shafts.
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I can say that Patrick Kelly can regularly demonstrate the advantages of shooting a heavy bow with properly matched arrows. Of course, Pat's bows are significantly higher poundage than what is heavy for me, but he manages to make drawing an 82# bow look like child's play and still puts his arrows into tiny groups. Pat is not only a good archer and hunter, he is also very smart, so when he talks, everyone should listen. I know I do! Here are a couple of links to threads where I was shooting with Pat as he "showed his stuff." http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=116890#000001 http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=107057#000000 Somewhere else that I can't find, Pat has pictures of his first group and his last group on one of our days at the range. Maybe he'll post it.
And here is the thread about the first shot I ever took with my new Shrew Safari using the AD arrows I described. http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=116973#000000
Allan
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great thread!
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Thanks for the kind words Allan, but trust me, I have good days and bad days like everyone else. There are lots of folks on this site that are better shooters than I am, but any problems that I have don't stem from being overbowed. I was just outside shooting my Rogue for a little bit this evening after work. Makes me think of getting a bow just a little bit heavier just to make the Rogue even easier to shoot. Maybe 100# @ 28"? Wouldn't want to go any heavier than that. A little while back I got a bow that was supposed to be 105#, and I suspect it was more like 110#. That was too much of a jump, and I sold it in a couple of days rather than hurting myself. Too much of a jump.
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I'm getting good flight with 29" Grizzlystik Safaris for the bows in my signature. I am still tuning the CarbonTech Safaris. I have achieved decent flight with adding weed eater cord and the aluminum inserts at 30". I'm running 250gr 3 blades and 2 blade 215grs. These combos come in around 800grs.
I've got an experimental arrow that is a 2317 over a CarbonTech 30" with a brass insert that has a total weight of 12-1300 grains. I'm playing with this one and it's flying well so far. I'm low on endurance right now due to just getting back from a long trip so testing is taking time.
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I to was in the midst of some arrow over arrow experiments but I ran out of tinkering time before season started, so I stuck with the tried and true wood arrows I have grown to love. The experimental arrows were a thin carbon tucked inside another carbon and with a heavy broadhead they were almost 1500 grains. The wood arrows I shoot average right at 1000 and despite being a little light out of my 115# Hill, they fly so well.
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Please tell me the specs on the wood arrows that you are using out of your 115# hill bow as well as your draw length, please. I'd appreciate it.
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I am shooting Arrow Dynamic Trads out of my 78# HH with 175 grain heads.
I'm also shooting them out of my 100# Java man with 175 grain heads....but I'm not all the way back to my draw with it at the moment. If they don't fly, I believe the Arrow Dynamic Golds will. Just that they are light and I'd have to weigh the shaft up from the inside....likely with weed eater line inside aquarium tubing to get a decent weight.
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I tried soaking some 100 pound spine Doug Firs with Danish Watco Oil for 5 days....they took 10 days to dry, but gained alot of weight.
Almost 80 grains.........the completed arrows weighed just over 830 grains while the non soaked arrows, made up the same way, weigh just over 750........
I made them to shoot out of an 81 pound Dave Johnson longbow......
they hit like a 30-06.......
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My woodies are old sweetland forgewoods that I bought at an estate sale. I don't know what they spine as my tester only goes up to 100#, I figured buy them and if I couldn't use them as arrows I could shoot pool with them :biglaugh: Unfortunately I only have 7 left.
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Lucky for me, GT 300 UL Entradas with 100gn brass insert,100 bh adapter, glued to 300 bh or fp and bareshaft tuned shoot like darts from a 62# Centaur and 75@28 RD longbow with 29 inch draw.The degree of center cut caused the luck to shoot two favorite bows with one set of arrows.
Double lucky recipe #2 is AD Hammerheads with alum adapter and 250 points.Fun made simple.
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After buying my first 'heavier bow' at the start of the month (a Schulz Granpa - 68@27) I was planning on getting some wood arrows but ended up tapped out for funds.
With what I had to hand I found that beman mfx 500's cut to 28 inches with 75gr insert and 190 gr Tree Sharks shot amazingly well from this bow. I really like that the arrow weighs 565 gr but only about 8.5 gpp so I've got plenty of weight but a very flat shooting arrow. Best of both worlds and a definite plus for shooting higher draw weight. No issues with hand shock either, that Schulz is a joy to shoot!
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Turkeys! those little birds don't need heavy set ups? Bulloney! Wacked one with a 50# longbow from 27" draw and w/200g BH's. Hit the bird in the back just to he left of the center line between where the wings meet, NO PASS THROUGH!! 2 flips, 2 flops bird spit out the arrow and ran away! If that was with my 65#'er that bird would have been skewered to the ground like a teriyaki steak.
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Heavy forgewoods are hard to come by.
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I like heavy arrows. I picked up a dozen birch shaft arrows from a Tradgang member, WOW.
These bad boys are heavy and fly great. They hit with authority. The trajectory changed quite a bit though and I will have to get used to the new trajectory.
The bow feels great shooting them though, so I will be giving these more of a chance. I sure would not want to get hit with one.
Has anyone else tried birch shafts? If so what do you think?
Gil
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I have some compressed Maples....730 grains with a 175 grain head on them......and man are they tuff. Don't know who does them anymore though. Wish I did.
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I'm kinda late to this conversation, but I have ignored this thread on purpose....I have been experimenting with lighter bows for about 6 months. I didn't want to read something here that got in my head.
Anyway....I agree. The lighter bows just aren't for me. I need at least 57#. I need that hard tension or my release can suffer.
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Originally posted by Roger Norris:
I'm kinda late to this conversation, but I have ignored this thread on purpose....I have been experimenting with lighter bows for about 6 months. I didn't want to read something here that got in my head.
Anyway....I agree. The lighter bows just aren't for me. I need at least 57#. I need that hard tension or my release can suffer.
That is about my "bottom-end" in bow weight also, 57#. I am shooting that now and it is very comfortable to shoot. Shooting 610 grain surewoods, 75 gr woody weight and 145 grain hunter head. Hits with some JUICE!
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ttt
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I had a personal victory last night. I haven't been able to shoot my Dave Johnson longbow since June due to having my right shoulder rebuilt. Once I got cleared by the doctor to begin resuming normal life, I started working out with the goal of routinely shooting my bow like I used to.....
It's only 81 pounds but after being able to do NOTHING
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I had a personal victory last night. I haven't been able to shoot my Dave Johnson longbow since June due to having my right shoulder rebuilt. Once I got cleared by the doctor to begin resuming normal life, I started working out with the goal of routinely shooting my bow like I used to.....
It's only 81 pounds but after being able to do NOTHING several months....I had ALOT of strength and stamina to build back up.
Last night I pulled it through to full anchor and held it for 3 seconds.
YES! Won't be long now........
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Brother that is awesome!! I can't wait to see you flinging shafts through things from that bow.
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I need every advantage I can get, more power, better penetration. Almost there with my Maddog.
My release stinks and I'm not as steady with lighter bows.
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FMA or Force = Mass x Acceleration, all other things being equal, faster and heavier transfers more energy.
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I just switched over to heavies and I've never shot better. They made me realize how strong my back was, more importantly, how much I wasn't USING it. I was developing a shoulder issue from an old wrestling/football injury and thought poundage had something do with it. I was only shooting a 55# and thought I needed to go lower. I got a Schulz longbow from BowhunterGA and the issue went away. I recently picked up a 75#@28 which is probably pulling 85# at my draw and I'm handling it fine.
I think heavy bows can help your form.
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I think I tend to get flatter trajectory and smoother release with a heavier bow. However, I have a shoulder injury that is forcing me to shoot lesser weight bows. Right now 55# is the max I can control.
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Somebody should copy and paste this thread on AT. The guys in the trad forum there would have a stroke.
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Originally posted by jkm97:
Somebody should copy and paste this thread on AT. The guys in the trad forum there would have a stroke.
:bigsmyl:
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yep they wont let the bow hunters free from their BS
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Shoot the heavy weights as long as you can.
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Originally posted by ironmike:
USE HEAVY BOWS
by
Tom Imler, Jr.
I have felt for some time the urge to answer some of the opinions expressed on the relative merits of light and heavy bows. Because of the weight of my bows I have become quite innocently, and believe me, quite unintentionally embroiled in this deadly feud, so duck your heads, you "light bow" boys, here it comes.
First let me be understood. There seems to be no question that a 50 pound bow will kill deer and even larger game quite successfully. However, we also know that a 22 rifle will kill big game hut is barred by law in most states because it is not considered adequate- not enough margin of safety. Why then should we be satisfied with minimum killing power when we can quite easily have better?
For some time now I have heard said and seen published the statement that a 50 pound bow will do anything a 75 pound bow will do and that it is probably even better for all round big game hunting. It is usually said that the advantage of the speed with lighter bows and arrows more than off-sets the advantages of the heavier tackle. Don't let 'em kid you, fellows. If this is true then there are a lot of physics professors over the world that have been laboring under delusions for many years.
Most of the fellows who make such statements base their whole argument on an erroneous assumption. They generally assume all men are such weak creatures that when they shoot a 75 pound bow they shake violently with exertion and only succeed in drawing 21 or 22 inches of a 28 inch arrow. I assure you this is is not the case. It has been my observation that almost any man can build up to a much heavier bow than 50 pounds. When the time comes to shoot big game the archer has no trouble drawing any bow with which he can normally shoot a full clout. He is more apt to overdraw on normal length arrows than to under- draw 3 or 4 inches, as is claimed.
Now, think for yourselves. If a 50 pound bow will throw a 500 grain arrow at a given velocity and through a given trajectory curve, then a 75 pound bow- will throw a heavior ar row through an equally flat trajectory curve (conceding, of course, proper design of equipment) - Then it logically follows that a heavier arrow traveling at the same velocity expends, on striking,, a greater amount of energy Then too, a heavy object moving at a given speed is much harder to stop than a lighter one because of its inertia. In the case of an arrow this energy is expended almost entirely in penetration. Therefore add energy and you add penetration.
Aside from the ballistics on paper, I have actually seen many big game animals killed with both light and heavy bows. What I have seen more than bears out anything that the ballistics show. There is always a fuss raised about penetration and narrow heads are advocated by some (usually those with 50 pound bows) to get penetration. I say use a heavier bow and you don't have to cut down on the width of the broadhead to get penetration. We all knew that a 50 pound bow will many times completely penetrate the chest cavity of a deer with the common broadhead. Any penetration beyond this point is useless. Death, is caused by hemorrage and the extent this hemorrhage is determined by the width of thc hole cut by the broadhead. The obvious thing then is to use wider broadheads (within practical bounds) until all the energy is expended in the job it is sent to do.
The additional penetration obtained by use of heavier equipment makes possible those shots in which the arrow goes "clean through" a big boar or a bear and keeps on going instead of just sticking in his ribs. To those of us who have been fighting for ten years to get archery hunting legalized in our respective states these demonstrations of penetration have been of tremendous varlue. I have actual slow motion natural color movies of such shots to back up my stories. The greatest archery hunter of modern times, Art Young, used very heavy bows and arrows and wide heavy hroadheads when he went after big game.
We surely haven't forgotten the lesson learned by the English en the invention of the long bow. Those who claim that weight of arrow should be sacrificed for the high trajectory should remember that the high trajectory bow was replaced by the English long bow that threw a heavy arrow. Penetration of armor was thus attained when the high trajectory bows and light arrows had proven useless. The men who came to these conclusions were not playing at archery-their lives depended upon the effectiveness of their bows. Penetration of animal flesh is similiar, in as much as it depends upon striking power.
This leads up to weight of arrow and bow. I'm afraid I'm going to shock terribly some of the "light bow tribe" by saying that in one most important point I heartily agree with their advice to the novice. The beginner in field archery should never start with a bow over 50 pounds no matter how strong he is. Many men should start with much lighter. Bad habits of form and loose are easily formed by a bow that is the least bit too strong.
But here my agreeable nature ends. Any normal man (physical handicaps, of course, are excepted) can, by starting with a weak bow and systematically building up to a stronger one, draw and shoot sucessfully a much stronger bow than he ever believed possible. Most normal men can use a 70 to 80 pound bow with ease. Why! even Joe Cosner1 with his old broken down muscles, was able to build up to a 70 pound bow and he even hits things once in a while, even if they are only gopher holes. If Joe can do it, anyone can. I'm not asking anyone to "over bow" himself. I made my 100 pound bow only for bear and for heavy penetration stunts. I'm no superman and I prefer my little 80 pound Osage bow for roving, but I use the heavier one with ease. I merely say don't be satisfied with that 50 pound how just because you won't build up those biceps and triceps. The factor of physical exercise is important in field archery, so why not get the most out of it.
Far be it from me to force my ideas down anyone's throat, so if any of you have read this far and don't agree, just stop here. There are many of archery's "old Foggies" who will "pooh pooh" this writing. There are other "old Foggies," myself included, who will say, "Boy that's telling 'em."
I address it not to any of them, but to the new fellow, who should, by all means, hear the "Heavy Bow" side of the story, which I have tried to present as logically as I am able. It's all in fun. As long as we can have differance of opinion and friendly arguments, archery will never get in a rut.
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i'm working on mastering 90# now, got a long way to go, have a 79# arriving this week, i routinely shoot 75# all morning long,so i know the work, love heavy bows,love diesel engines,duelly trucks,etc and so on.
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One man's 40#s is another mans's 50 is another man's 60....and so on and so on. NOT ALL MEN are created with equal physical strength. I can shoot 70# all day....but Denny Sturgis can shoot 90...but I don't go bash Denny. Sometimes threads like these folks post on emotion rather than fact. One guy on the other thread said he always beat the heavy bow shooters at shoots....well, Ron LaClair won Worlds with a 110# Longbow....wonder if he would have been there if he'd have beaten Ron.
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one man's ceiling is another man's floor.
what terry said is gospel for me.
shoot the heaviest holding weight trad bow you can reliably control under hunting venue conditions.
i sure wish i could go back in time and handle 65# but these dayze, and my age, i've found myself slipping down under 55#. it's all good, do what works best for ya and the game ya wanna kill.
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strength training for pulling/holding bows in the 65# and up range has nothing to do with a "weight training at the gym" kinda thing. it's all in the back muscles, not arm or shoulders.
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Erik...this is an argument FOR...not against.
Thanks...... :campfire:
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
I'd like to add....it does NOT take a big, or strong, or stout person to draw heavy bows. Its all in training and technique.
I remember guys at the gym that were serious weight lifters and body builders that competed. They saw my 80# bow in the truck one day and wanted to have a go at it and not ONE of them could pull it even close to anchor. When I pulled it back to anchor about 8 times they thought it was a trick. One guy was even looking for a 'switch' on my bow. :biglaugh:
Now these guys were MUCH bigger than me and could bench 100 to 150#s more than me but the drawing motion is one that I've done basically all my life and one they had not done.
So, just because you are not a brute doesn't mean you can train and draw a heavy bow. Just make sure you are smart and learn to draw the bow correctly with proper alignment and bone on bone structure and work up slowly and sensibly...and always warm up before while you are training.
Once the new weight is comfortable...that will be your new 'warm up' weight if you want to move up again.
Also, train every other day, just like weights, your muscles need time to repair and grow.
X2
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Originally posted by arrowlauncherdj:
I found it funny once a group of us were shooting at a friends house and one guy there had a 80 lb longbow shooting these big heavy woodies and the arc was amazing. He was quite the, this is a badge of honor kind of guy. I asked if I could shoot one through my 60 lb homemade curve and my curve shot the arrow flatter/faster even with my 1" shorter draw. Sometimes it's not always about weight but design and efficiency. Of course that burst his bubble a bit, but I was like man why you pulling all that weight when a lighter curve will gitterdun just as well? Sorry guys, I just don't get it about why someone would subject their body to such torture in his case to shoot a HH longbow. Buy a curve, drop 10-15 lb and get better penetration, flatter trajectory, and a longer joint lifespan. Jump on, pile on, whatever, not gonna change my mind.
i think yer missing the point. the more bow holding weight you can handle EFFECTIVELY under hunting conditions, the better it is for killing game, particularly larger and more aggressive game. lots hasta do with YOU and your trad bowhunting requirements, your physique and how much effort you can or will want to put into your trad bowhunting.
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
One man's 40#s is another mans's 50 is another man's 60....and so on and so on. NOT ALL MEN are created with equal physical strength. I can shoot 70# all day....but Denny Sturgis can shoot 90...but I don't go bash Denny. Sometimes threads like these folks post on emotion rather than fact. One guy on the other thread said he always beat the heavy bow shooters at shoots....well, Ron LaClair won Worlds with a 110# Longbow....wonder if he would have been there if he'd have beaten Ron.
Exactly! :thumbsup:
Some guys are just stronger than others. I'm not a big guy,only 5'8". I have bows in my rack right now from 53-82# and shoot them all. My favorite weight is about 66-70#. I'm 43 and have been a logger since I was 19.After all these years of slinging saws and choker chains around,I'm fairly strong.To the guy that said he could do all those pullups at the gym.I bet you couldn't do that your first time there.If you worked at a heavier bow,I'm sure you could handle one with ease,especially if you are already that strong to begin with.But just like the pullups or weight lifting,it's not going to happen over night. I just shoot what bow makes me happy and really don't care what anyone thinks about it.
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Terry, I've read references to your workout regimen, but can't find the thread. Would you mind posting it? I'm looking to improve my holding ability.
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I've had some emails based on some comments I made asking 'how to' move up properly.
1st let me say I'm no physical trainer with no 'certification'....but I do know what worked for me so I'll pass it along......
OK, before you start you need to make sure you are drawing your current bow correctly ....i.e., proper alignment and bone on bone structure.
Make sure you are 'closing the door behind you' with a rotational draw which will help immensely getting your alignment correct AND you will be able to pull more weight easier.
Here's a link explaining....in case some of you never go to the shooters form forum....
Link to Alignment Thread (http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=003278#000005)
Also, get a 'hook' on the string....this will help you pull more weight easier as well than shooting off the pads of your fingers(finger tips). Imagine trying to start an old rope pulled lawn mower with the handle on the tiips of your fingers rather than having your fingers wrapped around it.
More in a bit.......
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I always love watching this one....just shows you don't have to be a big guy to shoot heavy bows.....
Originally posted by longbowman:
As several have stated before, you don't have to be a beast to shoot heavy equipment correctly. The video clip below is my son who weighs in at just under 135# shooting his 93# longbow. Just clik on the picture.
(http://vid131.photobucket.com/albums/p314/longbowman_bucket/th_100_0005.jpg) (http://s131.photobucket.com/albums/p314/longbowman_bucket/?action=view¤t=100_0005.mp4)
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Originally posted by frassettor:
TERRY,
That may be all of those honey brats and muscadines
:goldtooth: :jumper:
Could be !!!...its about that time again!!!
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Here ya go gringol..
What worked for me was going up 10#s and 'working out' with it....both right an left handed.
I drew the bow to anchor 3 sets of 8 reps every other day....once I got to do that comfortable....I did the same thing but would hold at full draw for 3 seconds.....then once I could do that comfortably I'd hold to 6 seconds.
Then I would move to 4 sets of 10 the same regiment. Only once I could do that did I start shooting the bow at targets.
Remember, that's both right an left handed.
If you are going to do it correctly, it takes time and effort and sticking to what ever program you chose. Once you get through with your regiment and you start shooting targets, you will be amazed at how effortlessly it will be.
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Thanks, Terry. I think you're right, effortless is the key. A lot of guys just grab a heavy bow and sling wood, but put a lot of effort into it. I can do that too, but I can't hit much like that. In contrast, I can pick up my wifes 35# bow and hit a ping pong ball at 15yds all day long because I don't have to put any effort into drawing and holding. I'm trying to get to that level with my 61# bow. Still a work in progress.
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makes sense to me,that's good advice,i find myself progressing well by going slowly...not over doing the regiment.
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On page 12 of this thread I had posted what worked for me.
Good luck
Gil
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thanks, i found it on page twelve,the British deal right?
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No the Formaster exercise on Texas Archery.
Gil
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Mark said what Fred Bear said years ago and the code I live by, "Shoot the heaviest bow you can handle accurately". When I first started out before compounds the average weight of a bow for hunting was 55#. I was 12 and weighed 75# myself but worked hard and learned to shoot 55# my first year. That has been the lightest bow I've ever hunted with and now at 60 I've settled into the mid 70# range as my comfort zone.
I've hunted with hundreds of people all over the US in my lifetime and all of them ended up using bows in the high 60# to low 80# range. The wives of nearly all these guys shoot in the mid 50"s or more!
I couldn't count the number of 2" penetration blood trails I've had to be in on because somebody hit the shoulder blade of a deer or another minor bone with their "new and Better" modern stick bows pulling 40-50# and when we found the broken off arrow with just the broadhead missing we had to eventually give in knowing that blade was in a deer and we owe more than that to the game we hunt.
By the way, that's my son in Terry's posted video.
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that's the one i meant,good one!
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Good Stuff.
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The heavier the bow the cleaner my release is, within reason of course.
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OK Looks like I might have to bust out my old JD Berry Serpentine..... I always shot that bow and my brackenbury longbow best.... but they took a toll on my bow elbow.... I am up to 55 pounds now so I guess alittle more won't hurt and I do have all spring and summer to work on it :)
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I agree - the heavier the bow the cleaner the release. I have shot a 70# bow for nearly 40 years. When I try a light weight bow, I can't let go of the string. It seems to hang up in my fingers. I suppose a person would get used to it with practice. Just knowing that I have enough poundage to get the job done makes me feel better. With age, someday, I will have to drop back in poundage, but hate to think of that day. I use dumbbells to work my shoulders with several different excerises. Terry also has good advice about keeping your shoulders and body strong for the sport.
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My archery shooting for 45 years has been predominantly hunting and stump shooting. I started shooting as a teenager with a 45# Bear Grizzly and peaking in 30's shooting a 65# Hill longbow until my mid 50's, backing off to 55# which I currently shoot at 62. My arrows have always been 10-11grs/draw weight taking advantage of a flatter trajectory. Penetration has not been an issue for me at any poundage for whitetails. Each time i increased weight, I had to build up my shooting muscles with my medium frame and build. I have always shot my heavier bows better than my light bows. The heavy poundage and resultant tension aided in keeping my Shulz shooting style consistent. I also found that i increased my effective hunting range with the heavier weights. My current 55# draw at my current age now feels like my 65# did, but I traded off my maximum hunting range.
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Very interesting thread. Just wondering what the thoughts are on how heavy an arrow and what speeds are everyone generally talking about with the higher poundage bows? Is it considered that a 550 grain arrow shot at 180-190 ft per second is good for whitetails? Just wondering what arrow weight and speed from heavier poundage bows is considered good. I just started in trad archery and this thread has been helpful for me in trying to build an arrow to hunt whitetails with in the fall. Thanks in advance
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Originally posted by Homey88:
Is it considered that a 550 grain arrow shot at 180-190 ft per second is good for whitetails?
All day long....and most hog you might encounter...or elk or bear....with a quality SHARP head.
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Only ever hunted with my 56# Assenheimer or 55# Mojostick. Never shot anything heavier but would like to try!
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Just started working out with my 68 pound limbs after reading this thread yesterday!
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I have found this thread to very interesting as well... I have a few bows that are all in the 50# range. These bows with 10gpp 15%foc will zip thru a broadside deer or the size of hogs that I normally shoot (100lb or less).
I have been seeing a couple huge barr (castrated) hogs that are hanging out together. I picked up a Big Jim TC 78# with those barr hogs in mind.
As luck would have it my family and I got T-boned by an 18 wheeler that ran a red light. We are all banged up but we will be fine (Lord willing). My shooting as come to a halt as a result of our accident, which really stinks because I pretty much had those barrs number.
I have barred many hogs over the years and they will get huge. I am still a little concerned if I will be under bowed for some of the huge ones.
Hopefully I'll get going again before it starts to get hot and we'll see what a 78# bow will do to the big ones :)
Be safe and shoot straight!!!
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I picked up a Root Recurve a few weeks ago that is 85 lbs @ 28". I bought a new string and have been playing with the bow for a couple of weeks.
At first I found the bow to be almost unbearable to draw and shoot. Gradually I have gotten stronger, and use to the increased resistance, and I am now able to come to full draw / anchor. I now shoot this bow 40 - 50 shots almost daily and it seems that my form and release has improved. (My theory is... You have to have good form and engage the back muscles in order to come to anchor when using heavy bows otherwise your frame will completely collapse and you will injure yourself. However, you must gradually work up to it.)
That being said... After shooting the 85 lb bow it makes all my other bows draw weights seem like I'm shooting kids bows. The bow I shoot the most has a 60 lb draw and now it feels like a 30 pounder. So, I like the idea of heavy weight bows!
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That's true, I also like how an 85# bow delivers an 800 grain arrow... impressively.
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As of yet I haven't really worked up an arrow specifically for my 85 lb bow. I have three GT Expedition Hunter 7595 arrows that I am playing with but all my shooting is basically blind bale and or 10 yd shooting. I'm still concentrating on conditioning and maintaining form as I grow stronger and develop more endurance. Before too much longer I will work up some arrows that will be hunting and general purpose arrows.
The guys at my Sportsman's club think I'm nuts for wanting to shoot the bow. I think it's fun!
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Really Great thread, Thanks for the resurrection.
I have always advocated that you hunt with the highest poundage (within reason) that you can shoot without effecting your accuracy.
God bless you all, Steve
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what is a heavy bow shot 3 moose with the follong 58# jack howard - not a great hit but only went 30 yards -- took another arrow
2nd 70 pound bear grizzly - close shot a bit far back -- went 50 yards - dead --- 3 rd
62 # Val Sorentiono 1959k replica 35 yds + -
hind quarter hit as he was moving -- went 60 yards-- dead--
A heavy bow makes up for a bad or marginal hit-
The last bull- the arrow went right through H Q all moose were shot with Bear Razor Heads-- first two no bleader blade =-- last one was with ! Jerry Pierce use to use 70 # at 29" + used wool - two blade Journeyman BH -- all pass throughs-- he shot lots of big deer- he said he could not shoot a lighter bow-- when he tried - he said he went home and cut the limbs off the bow, I have the handle for proof--
just my two cents-- RT
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Great to see this back up again! I have progressed into shooting heavier bows since posting my initial question and I've noticed that while there is always give and take involved with deciding on draw weight there's one thing you can't argue against when it comes to the heavies - THEY ARE FUN TO SHOOT!!! lol
Challenge and fun are what it's all about for me.
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BAPilot2...It takes discipline and determination to learn to shoot heavier bows properly. You are doing it exactly right.
I spent many years hunting with 80# bows and like my old friend Jerry Pierce didn't shoot lighter poundage as accurately... but I didn't cut the limbs off of any bows.
I've literally shot through bear and deer end to end. That is pretty normal for a 700 gr. arrow traveling at 200 fps.
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Harder to get a good release wit a lighter bow mho
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i've got some heavies, but 72 pounds seams to give us the biggest bang for the buck..the 85 and 90 are only 5 or 10 fps faster, not a lot of gain over 75#'s..but i still like shooting them!
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You shoot better heavy bow , me to . But if you want to know how are you good archer-shooter take 35# bow and shoot and you will see . I agree with some statement here , shoot heviest bow you can shoot accurately
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I'll agree with the smoother release from a heavier bow. I'm pulling right around 54-55 with my newest bow, the others I have are 5-10 lbs lighter. It feels much more solid at anchor, not mushy, and that has indeed translated to a better release for me. I'm already considering getting a set of 60lb limbs for the bow (a Widow PCH).
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If I could really shoot #70, then I would, just for the extra power for hunting. Outside of hunting, it doesn't matter. I am more accurate with a heavier bow than a lighter one (if I'm strong enough)
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Ive just recently started shooting a 70# hybrid lb (actually 65# @ my draw). I love this weight , Ive tried to shoot my 50# lb since and it just seems like a kids bow. I'm liking the heavier bow a lot .
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This brings up an interesting quandary... If one were to have a multi poundage stable of bows Starting around 35-40 lb for form work and then jump in 10lb increments laying that perfect form and release down as you progressed winding up at 70 lb or so, it might make for a very confident and accurate shooter. I think I made a mistake jumping into 50lb bows just bc I can hold one all day. I shoot 60 now bc I feel it is the best compromise for me as far as heavy vs light goes for aiming and crisp release. But maybe I should get more bows and "train" with them light to heavier, as stated above, I may still stick with 60 for hunting but have a 70 for strength training.
Dave
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It would probably be best if one did not hunt with one's max draw. I could draw 150 a number of times and ways with both sides. I worked out with 128 , I never hunted with more than 90. I believe if one can handle 80 at a target one could confidently hunt with 65.
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Originally posted by pavan:
I could draw 150 a number of times and ways with both sides.
Damn, you should have went for the world record
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Didn't read all the reply's and I'm sure its been spoken but when I get too light in poundage my grip arm isn't as anchored as when I shoot a little heavier. It's like my aiming arm is floating around and is less accurate when I don't have enough weight in my grip.
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Originally posted by KentuckyTJ:
Didn't read all the reply's and I'm sure its been spoken but when I get too light in poundage my grip arm isn't as anchored as when I shoot a little heavier. It's like my aiming arm is floating around and is less accurate when I don't have enough weight in my grip.
I have this same effect with a light poundage bow. I tend to push my bow arm too far forward and this puts the bow shoulder up vs. low and back. I am shooting a recurve that is 61# @ 27.5" my draw length. I believe this is the heaviest bow I have ever shot for any time.
I had a longbow that was about 68# but it blew up before I shot it anytime at all. Fred Bear hunted with 65# for most of everything, and I think that would be the ideal bow weight for most people with an average draw length. 65# and a 650 grain arrow. You would be at the heavy bone penetration threshold based on Ashby's research.
Many moons ago, when shooting 3D tournaments was my main interest I shot 46# on a longbow. I shot locked out, overdraw, and sink into the shot. I never liked the penetration I got on game with the bows I shot, even with 3:1 broadheads. I took game in the past, just really wanted more onboard if things don't go perfect.
I really like today the feel of the 61#. My only interest in several years is only in taking game with a bow.
Paul Schafer form. He just looks like he is in CONTROL of the bow! :thumbsup:
(http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n559/jeffbschulz/PaulSchafer4_zpsaf0caceb.jpg) (http://s1139.photobucket.com/user/jeffbschulz/media/PaulSchafer4_zpsaf0caceb.jpg.html)
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I shoot a 70. I consider it the middle ground in bow weight. 70 and up I consider heavy, 70 and down is light. I shoot it because I like heavy arrows going fast, because I find I have better form and better releases with it, because I'm a testosterone filled teenager who likes the power, and because I can.
I initially found it hard to draw, but I practice every day so in a few weeks I could shoot it just fine. Not it feels very comfy, I can draw and hold it while sitting, and when I first wake up in the morning, this makes me pretty sure I can draw it when I'm cold and stiff. The next bow I make is gonna be a 100#, just because I can. I doubt I'll hunt with it, it will just be for training with and for funsies, and because I cansies.
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I am continuing to enjoy this thread. When it first began, I would have listed 65# as the beginning point of a "heavy" bow for no specific reason, just an arbitrary number. I have now come to believe that it is totally a relative number, relative to what an individual archer can handle at any given time. Consequently, for some 50# may be considered "heavy" as it is the max poundage the individual can currently handle. As form and conditioning improve, "heavy" may increase for that same individual.
It is very true that most people can develop the ability to shoot, with ease and full control considerably heavier equipment. Then, the individual will be able to determine definitively if this heavier bow adds any improvements to his shooting/hunting effectiveness, thus eliminating any guesswork. In short it is all relative to the individual.
What I am most glad to see is that nearly all proponents of heavy bows most strongly stress a planned and gradual physical workout to develop the physical capacity needed to shoot them. There is a lot of both practical and philosophical discussion here, all of which centers on performing more effectively as archers and hunters.
I have now begun to handle my 65# bow for a few arrows at a time following my archery caused shoulder injury in 2012. Man, I wish I had read some of the training info posted here before I started trying to shoot my 78# bow again. At that time I "thought" I was doing O.K., but I wasn't ready, which has really cost me.
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Currently the number is 45 pounds, but that doesn't mean I'm content there. Every day I push my chair my arms get stronger, as does my back. It's all translating to draw weight. Going back to a thumb ring also made a huge difference in my drawing ability. I'm hoping to move up to 50 soon, to a goal of 75. 75 from a wheelchair should be reachable-if I get it I'll decide if I'll try for any higher.
I still shoot with light weight bows though-if you get all the steps right for clean release there, it'll be just that much better on the heavier weights.
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I only shoot heavy when required for hunting bug stuff. Of course my normal weight is 70#. If you are looking for nice heavy arrow combo I found that the FMJ Dangerous game shafts in 240 shoot great out of my 83# Morrison with 300grn up front. Skinny and strong and you need a good target to stop em!
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Airdale, Not necessarily. I remember shooting as a member of the Paterson Long Bowmen Club back in the very late 40"s and early 50"s where we had members shooting bows in the 80# category. I can remember one night when Ruben Hurricane Carter(#1 heavy weight contender) stopped by and tried to pull a member's 82# bow. Try as he may, he never could do it. They shot these bows in the NFAA shoots and hunted with them without any problem. Maybe not the norm but never say never.
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Looks like this thread is getting off topic again.....folks aren't reading the whole thread and don't realize the info here. ....and that the argument is FOR heavy bows as in the title. ..not against.
I WILL Lock It Up And Clean It Up So It Remains On target...Pun intended.
:campfire:
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Sorry it took so long....after my surgery from a NON archery related reason, I'm back shooting 70# Bows...and have an 80#er here in my office I'm working out with that I got since this thread has been cleaned up yet again.
I told a guy who sold me a bow at a deal cause he seriously missed weight I was going to kill something with it....and I'm on my way, but no where near that yet. I do have the bow in my office as a reminder of my promise.
I just want to make sure I wait till I'm a certain age when I do it....you know, for my birthday. :D
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Thats one more reason, heavy bows are usually cheaper used....... picked up a 65# like new Hill Halfbreed for $275 and like new 70# limbs for my predator for $75...............
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Uh....yeah, I should have said 'bowyer'...he was working on a new design and made a wrong calculation.....a very sizable one. So he sold it to me cheap.
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I did make 70 for hunting season, though I'm probably going to shoot 58-60 for a bit more stability after burning my arm so severely I scorched my muscle fascia. If I can do it with an atrophied arm and a wheelchair half the time, anyone who wants to can do it.
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I decided to move up to #85 to start this season. The arrow for that bow is the best tuned arrow I've ever seen, and the broadheads are crazy sharp.
Thom
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I'm going with my 68# @ 31" limbs this season on my recurve. Should pack way more wallop than I need, I know. For some reason it just feels good to work out with the heavier limbs, and it feels better to shoot them too.
That weight isn't super heavy for me... I'd probably max out physically around 75#, but I don't think I'd ever need to go that heavy.
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I think that 75# @ 31" would be an awesome setup, but even with 68#, that extra draw length would definitely be heavy enough for buff if you were so inclined. Glad to see this at the top again.
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72# Dale Dye Recurve, 2219 arrows cut 29.5 and 175 grain WW Broadheads for my December hog hunt.
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I shoot bows from 64-70lb at 28" and draw 29". I like the fact that if everything is not perfect, my setup will still work on animals. I just feel more confident if I take out as many points of failure as possible.
I started a post like this years ago, it got nasty quick.
BAB
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glad to see this thread going again, I guess im lighter than most at 62 or so lb, hopin in a few more years I can still shoot my age in bow weight... but I do like the feel of holding some weight and the clean release... and the way it delivers a arrow...
hey john, you still shooting jeffs old Robertson ? haven't seen ya around
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Way to go Dave
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Yes sir I am! I have Jeffs old 67#er and I liked it so much I bought a 70#er. Best bows I have. I don't think you can beat them for hunting. I have killed many a critter with the one I got off Jeff.
It sure is good to hear from you Dave.
BAB
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I know Terry has tweaked this thread a few times as it has gone astray a few times... Which they usually do... I've read through the thread a few times and have been reluctant to post, but finally will...
My most comfortable weight range is right around 70#... But have hunted and killed game with bows from 57# - 92#... I've recently went to one style of bow for the interest of consistency with my shooting... Some of what I would call "super heavy" bows have moved on... I.E. bows over 90#...
Actually just today I received a set of limbs that are 82# and spent the afternoon getting to know them. 750'ish grain Gold Tip that was/is nock and feathers to the target time and time again made it easy to shoot probably 200 plus arrows during the session... 82# sounds like a lot to some, but to me it was simply a setup with an arrow a little over 9 GPP... Shot the same as my 62# bow with an arrow that is a little over 9 GPP... Same point of aim, just hits harder...
Is that setup needed for deer? Probably not, but could it be needed for Elk, Moose, Bear, or if I'd be lucky enough in my life some of the African species? Sure...
I gear my setup for the task at hand... Type of critter I'm chasing, weather conditions, and time of year... When it's cold I tend to drop down in weight... A lot easier to get back, and make an accurate shot after spending several hours on stand in cold temps... And now that all, well mostly all of my bows are so similar (same make, grip, shooting characteristics, and cast), switching between different weight bows is a very smooth transition as long as GPP are the same or at least close...
Hunt smart, hunt hard, and use the best setup you can be accurate with for the game you're after... If your honest best is a 40# bow or a 100# bow makes no mind to me... Only you can be the judge of what is your best...
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I have mostly hunted with heavy bows between 60# and 80#. It is quite necessary for bull camels and buffalo. I want a heavy arrow going as fast as possible. Right now I shoot and hunt buffalo with a 75# bow, and while it is going well, there are moments enough to make me seriously think about jumping up five or even ten pounds to get more penetration. I also have found that heavier bows are more forgiving of form or release errors.
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I have been shooting around 70@28 for about 5 years now and have had great results.
1) Confidence...I don't doubt penetration ability
2) Arrow Flight...I don't have to compensate for drop as much as with a lighter set up
3) Bigger Broadheads make for cleaner kills and can make up for those bad shots(they happen)
4) I can hunt any game I want
5) I'll come right out and say it, I feel more manly shooting a heavy bow accurately :)
That being said, ive made a change in my setup this year and have dropped to 59@28 and a shorter 58" set up for treestand hunting. I hope to have more maneuverability in the tree for odd angle shots and haven't had as much time to practice lately.
That being said, if I did more of my hunting from the ground I would keep the heavier set up.
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Like Mark and many others have already eluded to, I learned to bow hunt way back before compound days and good old Fred Bear told me to, "Shoot the heaviest bow you can handle accurately." I figured he knew a lot ore than me so that's what I did and still do. I really don't care what others shoot but I can't count the number of times people have called me after hitting a deer with light equipment and said the arrow just hung there because they hit a shoulder bone??? I USED TO AIM AT THE SHOULDER BONE! I try to miss it now but I sure don't worry if I catch it. I know I'm reaching the age when I will probably not be able to shoot the equipment I shoot now but at 61 I enjoy shooting 72# & 750 gr. arrows.
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I will say this...
My wife has been struggling with her bow for some time and what I saw was that her errors vanished with a higher draw weight. Being independent, she didn't want to hear me saying that a higher weight was what she needed. Well... She read through this thread and agreed to try what I had been suggesting.
She went to a 68# longbow, from a 56# recurve and is shooting lights out since. I waited to put this in print because you know how anything has results at the start and then fails later on. Well not this time!. This has been a great thread in as much as the intelligent and well thought out responses have helped me to help her. She is shooting my 70# Mamba now and she is a killer with it :)
Thanks guys!!!
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Story of two arrows and two Russian bore. Fifty eight lbs at my draw, double lung hit yes, pass through no. No bones were broken how ever 4 ribs were cut by the broadhead.
Arrow number two 70lbs at my draw double lung hit ,through the shield. Complete pass through yes, again no broken bones only cut throughs on both shields and 4 ribs.
These were my first trad kills just 2 weeks ago. I was disappointed with the first I must say I fully expected a pass through. The 70lbs surpassed my expectations as I also had to dig the broadhead out of the tree behind where I hit the second bore. Going hunting again this weekend, taking the 70 with me
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TTT
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Back up cause its just pain fun like someone said hearing those heavy arrows thump from those heavy bows.
Just saw a mention of this thread elsewhere on the site. Very cool thread.
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I see this is an old thread with many pages so I am sure this has been covered and heck I may have even posted previously. But I am now 50 and have a license to forget.
I have found that I have a certain weight that when I am just not quit heavy enough my bow hand tends to wonder and I become less accurate. A few pounds more and I can settle in. That number for me now is 50@28.
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I'm definitely NOT in this league. Age, arthritis and laziness says I will stay where I am. I notice, however that Terry is looking for a 100#+ war bow.
Betcha nothing is going to remain standing in front of that :)
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SO glad to see this come back around....love those heavier bows.
I injured my elbow in The Stan a few years ago and had to have surgery to fix it, but ended up trading that problem for tendonitis....
I'm shooting a 75 lb Hill now, working back up to my Johnson longbow...
Still loving it...
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WOW Someone read something I said
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I think I probably posted in this thread already a while back. And I don't shoot real heavy bows. I actually hurt my bow-arm shoulder a few years ago when getting crazy with an 80# longbow that I wasn't used to.
But I think it's good to shoot the heaviest you can safely and accurately handle. I put a video together a few years ago of me drawing my bows, holding and counting to 10, and then shooting. Not that anyone would do that in real life, but I want to have that kind of muscle control over the bows I shoot.
I enjoy shooting my 68# recurve, and would like to one day get a longbow at about 60# at my draw. Last year I walked a 30 target 3D course with the 68 pounder, rested a while, and shot it again with my 48-pound longbow. It feels great to know that my body was in shape to handle the weight and repetition. Could I do it now? Probably not. But once my shooting season rolls back in, that heavier bow gets easier and easier to shoot.
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Thanks for keeping this thread clean. If you don't know how to shoot a bow properly you can injure yourself. Old age is one thing, time takes a toll on everyone, but if you know how to properly draw a bow you should not get injured, so be aware of what's posted here and on the shooters forum if you want to move up in weight.
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Originally posted by Archie:
I think I probably posted in this thread already a while back. And I don't shoot real heavy bows. I actually hurt my bow-arm shoulder a few years ago when getting crazy with an 80# longbow that I wasn't used to.
But I think it's good to shoot the heaviest you can safely and accurately handle. I put a video together a few years ago of me drawing my bows, holding and counting to 10, and then shooting. Not that anyone would do that in real life, but I want to have that kind of muscle control over the bows I shoot.
I enjoy shooting my 68# recurve, and would like to one day get a longbow at about 60# at my draw. Last year I walked a 30 target 3D course with the 68 pounder, rested a while, and shot it again with my 48-pound longbow. It feels great to know that my body was in shape to handle the weight and repetition. Could I do it now? Probably not. But once my shooting season rolls back in, that heavier bow gets easier and easier to shoot.
Roman,
You shoot that 68# bow like it's 45# and boy does it throw those "log poles" you call arrows! :biglaugh:
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Soon to turn 69 , proud to still be shooting 60-65# Recurves.
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Please don't post its a macho thing if you continue to do so I'll have to also allow the you're a sissy posts.
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Hey Terry,
If you're referring to my post, I wasn't trying to make it a macho thing. I was only trying to say he makes shooting heavy bows look easy. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Sometimes things get lost in translation. :campfire:
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No longbow it was not your post at all it was someone elses but it was removed..... as well as another post by the same individual on another thread who has also been removed unfortunately
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Finally read through this thread. I'm not in the league with you heavy bow shooters but I after my KMag bit the dust I picked up a 50# Martin and I'm finding I prefer taking it out over my 45# Bear. Interesting stuff in this thread, I find myself thinking there may be something to this.
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Originally posted by SERGIO VENNERI:
Soon to turn 69 , proud to still be shooting 60-65# Recurves.
Good for you. Older automatically doesn't mean weaker.
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I shoot heavier bows better, too. I have a few lighter draw weight bows in the 50# range, and even if I shoot them exclusively for several days I'll still shoot a 58# to 60# longbow more accurately. They just feel right, somehow.
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I've been dreaming of a Bear TD lately, anyone know if you can get them with 65lb limbs?
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I was handed an old Damon Howatt the other day, 58" and 70 lbs.. I managed to shoot a decent group with it but that short of a bow sure makes things more difficult. I have a 68" Martin at 75 lbs that is a dream to shoot next that shorty!
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This is cool!
I continue to learn something new.
Never thought of trying to shoot anything heavier than around 55#, but maybe I could go to 60.
I think I will try.
This thread is just another example of why TradGang is so great.
Irv
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This is my first post, been lurking a long long time though. Read this whole thread and really enjoyed it.
The arguement for a heavier bow? Please humor me a moment.
A few years ago I bought a 75# longbow to hunt buffalo in the Northern Territory. While waiting for it to be built, I had a loan of a 65# and a 70# recurve simply to build up to the heavier weight (was using 55# at the time)
It took careful solid work, but 2 months later when the new longbow arrived, I could handle it comfortably.
The advantages of a heavier bow have no doubt been covered much more elequantly here than I can, but for me, my release is much better, my form is much better, I shoot it much better (both in accuracy and consistency) and the penetration a 950+ grain wooden arrow with a big Grizzly broadhead gets from that 75# longbow is outstanding.
I seldom use the lighter bow now (but I did take it out a couple of days ago with my two sons, we spent an hour and a half shooting at cabbage moths :) ) But I do prefer to take the heavy bow. It is simply better, for me.
My heavy longbow works extremely well on buffalo, and on everything else I've taken with it, and it will surely be with me on my next hunt for whatever that may be.
Can't wait till then.
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I see this thread is still popular and, therefore, relevant. Of course, nobody enjoys the light vs heavy debate, for as many have emphasized, this is a very subjective number. What I am really glad to see is that so many have been so diligent regarding the conditioning process to develop the ability to pull heavier bows. Most archers could, if they chose, pull considerably heavier bows, but working into it is a serious consideration. Its good to hear that essentially everybody is advising people to approach the heavier bows in a systematic and well planned manner to avoid injury.
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Thanks Sam .....and you're right this is not a debate it's an argument FOR .... all of those who have lobbied against have been removed as this was not a debate thread or intended by the original poster to be a debate thread it was a FOR thread
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I'm 57 years old and can still shoot my 75 lb recurve, and shoot it better than I ever have, But I enjoy shooting my 60 lb longbow much more. If I were to go after buff either down under or Africa, I would use the heave recurve. For anything in North America I would stick to the longbow. I would probably shoot the recurve more but I have had serious shoulder issues on both sides and don't want to strain things too bad. I shoot it just enough to know that I can, and that I can put an arrow where it needs to be with it.
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I have a #50 longbow and shoot it well, I just picked up a #55 longbow and shoot very well also. I can tell the difference with the extra #5 pounds. I can still put a arrow where I need to with both. I like the #55 for elk hunting. I must say I shoot the #55 better even at my age of 58 years old. My 2 cents
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Thanks for keeping this thread alive. I posted when it started. Since then I dropped a couple pounds but still shoot 60# recurves. I feel fortunate to be able to do this at 70+ years old. I still enjoy the feel of drawing the heavier weight bows I have. It reminds me of a good workout, my muscles feel good, warmed up. I hope I can keep this up for another 10 years.
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Well, I have come a long way since this thread started. I just had surgery two weeks ago and can't shoot a bow at all. However, the doc expects that I should be able to shoot again before long, even if I can't pull the weight I used to handle. That just emphasizes the fact that "heavy" is a very subjective and changeable number.
Even though part of my problem happened when shooting a 78# bow incorrectly, I still believe in shooting the heaviest that can be handled well. I just hope I can build the strength again, because I honestly feel my form is better (at least when my conditioning is appropriate).
The emphasis is conditioning and, yes, mindset. I would encourage a new guy to look at heavier bows but to be guided by what feels right. Just make sure you are in shape for it. I don't criticize those who like lighter bows, I just feel that a well placed shot from a heavy bow will usually outperform one from a light bow.
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Dsturgisjr/I%20Cape%202_zpstz4layrm.jpg)
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Now there is a dream come true!`
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So I thought I wanted to drop weight. My "go to" bow is 60#'s. Well, 60# @ 27", I draw 26", but when I replaced the grip, written underneath was 60# + 3, so I'm guessing that puts me right back at 60# for my beloved Wesley Special.
Now, 60# is not necessarily "heavy" by some subjective standards but I consider it, for all intents and purposes, to be "heavier than neccessary" for most of my practical hunting. So I picked up a 50# bow to use as a comfortable shooter. But honestly, and this is not bravado, my release is less clean with the lighter bow. I don't hold at anchor long, just enough to set my anchor point, and the heavier bow "pops" out of my release smoother it seems.
Of course, I could condition myself to the lighter bow, (and one day I may just have to!), but with regular shooting and my regular strength training I feel like building strength (in my physical condition) is more practical than dropping weight.
Bent over single arm rows, pull ups, and inverted rows are easy to progress with, safe to perform, and can be done with a variety of on-hand equipment.
I fully understand the physical limitations of people, old age, injuries, etc. and I am in no way advocating going up or keeping high weight in these situations, but if you do have a bow you love, and you're physically capable of progressing in strength, make a dedicated plan and you'll be surprised at just what advantages the heavier bow weights can do for you.
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I saw someone post today that a 45# bow in the wrong spot is the same as a 70# in the same spot...
WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!
#1 Depends on the so called 'spot'.
#2 Heavier Bows push bigger more devastating bheads through animals....more carnage to the 'wrong spot'...meaning the animal will get sicker faster and lay down sooner before the blood trail dries up.
#3 Even with smaller heads, the shoulder will succumb to the heavier bow MUCH more so than the lighter bow as its also toting a much heavier arrow WITH the power behind it AND the stiffer shaft for MORE dimensional stability at impact.
#4 Animals moving.....heavier arrows at the same speed or more are more likely to pass through or penetrate when the animal reacts to the shot.
Not knocking lighter bows at all, they are lethal, but lets not make them out to be heavyweights or comparable to them on game as the are not. You cannot deny physics.
Nice Pic Denny...was that with a 42# bow? After all, they are all the same some folks say.
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Heavy bows work for me too. As you see in my signature block I like stouter bows, the string comes off my fingers cleaner.
:campfire: :coffee:
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I have been shooting a 45# for about the last year and really enjoy it. But I also have heavier bows that I like also. The difference I see is that the 63# can do what the 45# can but a little better. This is just my experience , and I know others my differ. If it's just for these small N.C. deer In my experience the 45# is fine but If I hunt something larger I'm going heavier just for confidence if anything.
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Dsturgisjr/I%20Cape%201_zpseknfckex.jpg)
Yes Terry; sometimes you need to use a heavy draw weight! I used a 74# PSR and a 960 grain arrow on this Cape buff. Lighter than my normal buff set-ups.
The following pictures are from hunts that I wouldn't do with a 40 pound bow. You could make a perfect shot and not get the required penetration for a clean kill.
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Dsturgisjr/Ibuff1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Dsturgisjr/IBCMoose.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Dsturgisjr/IArgentinaHog2.jpg)
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(http://http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Dsturgisjr/IBillDaleDenny.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Dsturgisjr/Buff2shotplace.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Dsturgisjr/Buff107.jpg)
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Dsturgisjr/c67ca303.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Dsturgisjr/4fc77340.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Dsturgisjr/Eland.jpg)
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Dsturgisjr/ISABW.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Dsturgisjr/IZimzebra.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Dsturgisjr/INamGem.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Dsturgisjr/Gemsbok-1.jpg)
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Dsturgisjr/Zebra-1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Dsturgisjr/Iwart-1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v328/Dsturgisjr/Idall1.jpg)
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That is a convincing argument! :thumbsup: :clapper:
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WOW! Yep, that's a testimony !!!
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I see one guy changed his tune from the lower 48 to only including NC on the other thread. I think some folks claim they cant because cant never could.
Nice pics!
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Denny , great pics. it's funny the first one with the cape buff jumped out at me right away, I don't remember the last time I saw you with a recurve in your hand.
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great pics Denny... wish I could have went to OZ before that went away. THAT would have been a trip of a lifetime.
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Yeah Jabar, interesting how someone kills a couple of critters all of the sudden becomes and expert. Like someone trying to claim a 22 will do the same damage as a 300 mag cause they killed a couple of coons with a 22.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Yes, I agree, heavier bows and arrows do heavier work.....physics, sorry if you are in disbelief.
Bows and arrows are tools....and you need the right tools for the job, and overkill is a good thing...borderline is NOT. Again, sorry if you are in disbelief.
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I am a couple steps closer to "heavy bow" world. Came a across a LH Pete George Timberline, 67# at my 29" draw. I've always shot 57-61 but never any higher. Drew it a little at a time along with exercises for a couple weeks and finally took it out to shoot a couple days ago...that 650g arrow gets there in a hurry! Shot about 30 arrows, the first 20 were right on the money till I started getting tired...let it rest a couple days.
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I believe !!!! :campfire: :coffee:
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Denis, awesome pics!! Those buff are dreams for a lot of us.
Congrats :clapper: :clapper:
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Talking to my son last night, he commented how I reacted when I dropped to a 64 for pound bow. The same reaction when one is in a bucket brigade, getting an empty bucket when expecting a full one, the bucket gets thrown into the air. I have seen it happen when handing buckets of concrete in a line when filling an elevated beam pocket. Where do the lines of heavy versus light get drawn?
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"Where do the lines of heavy versus light get drawn?"
Good question...I've always figured around 65-70# and up.
I've shot 55-60 since I started 30 yrs ago..never classed that as heavy.
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I am glad this thread was cleaned up and resurrected. I have been shooting a Ron Maulding Big Horn longbow that is 72# at 28", but I have no doubt that some of the training tips on here can help me step up my game. Thank you all. I have also been toying with the idea of getting in touch with my my English heritage, and lightweight war bows just don't seem as authentic somehow.
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
great pics Denny... wish I could have went to OZ before that went away. THAT would have been a trip of a lifetime.
Terry, I wish you could have made it too. We just didn't know it was coming to an end so soon.
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This whole thread is full of cool pics! Denis's are awesome - very cool.
My whole experience with trad stuff is 100lb whitetails? But I still want to hit them with the heaviest arrow and heaviest bow I could shoot accurately! Even these small shoulder blades will stop a good arrow.
Take all the single bevel stuff out of Ashby's studies and the studies do prove that a heavy arrow driven by a heavy bow is the way to go - never mind whatever head you like to shoot.
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Originally posted by Chris Pharr:
I've been dreaming of a Bear TD lately, anyone know if you can get them with 65lb limbs?
Sure you can I have some pairs of 65# limbs that on a A riser make 70# and @29" you are around 73#
Good Medicine!
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This has been a really good thread for me. I've enjoyed reading it.
I got back seriously into bowhunting in 2010, and, reading other materials, convinced myself that I should have a 48# bow made up. After all, I was 60 years old, and old man.
Five years latter, I'm shooting 65# and wondering if I could or should go higher.
It's been threads like this that have made a difference with me. I know Fred Eichler has gotten all his game with 54#. But, if you can shoot more and shoot well, perhaps you should do just that.
Monty Browning comes to mind! He's shooting 90# with a 1,400 grain fish arrow. I suppose that's "overkill" on a whitetail. Even so, a bad bone shot may well end up with a pass through.
Also, I would like to say that my wife getting me back to the gym has been a major factor with this.
Convincing myself that I could shoot heavier was about as easy as convincing myself I am too old and should go down in draw weight. (yes, there is a little ego there. But, that's okay too).
Again, thanks for this thread.
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
great pics Denny... wish I could have went to OZ before that went away. THAT would have been a trip of a lifetime.
Still plenty of guys hunting buffalo with longbows and recurves here, Terry. Melville doesn't, as far as I'm aware, have any operators on it, but there are plenty of operators on the mainland. The game is still ON!
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Some pictures of situations where heavy bows have been necessary for me...
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/DesertTripJanuary07030.jpg) (http://s96.photobucket.com/user/b_kleinig/media/DesertTripJanuary07030.jpg.html)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/BensBigBoar027.jpg) (http://s96.photobucket.com/user/b_kleinig/media/BensBigBoar027.jpg.html)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/Schafer%20Silvertip/ChristmasHolidays2008042.jpg) (http://s96.photobucket.com/user/b_kleinig/media/Schafer%20Silvertip/ChristmasHolidays2008042.jpg.html)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/2014%20Adventures/L1010365.jpg) (http://s96.photobucket.com/user/b_kleinig/media/2014%20Adventures/L1010365.jpg.html)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/L1010541.jpg) (http://s96.photobucket.com/user/b_kleinig/media/L1010541.jpg.html)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/2014%20Adventures/L1020468.jpg) (http://s96.photobucket.com/user/b_kleinig/media/2014%20Adventures/L1020468.jpg.html)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/Archery%20Practice/BB3.jpg) (http://s96.photobucket.com/user/b_kleinig/media/Archery%20Practice/BB3.jpg.html)
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Ya'll don't eat the camels do you?
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Lately I'm shooting a 75 pound Hill...my arrows are right between 770 and 800 depending...it's a really good, quiet thumper.
It'll go thru a deer without ever slowing down...but I'm thinking of those big, ugly, mud encrusted wild hogs.
The kind you get one shot at..
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Thanks Ben.... hopefully I will get down there someday before it's too late for me I just wish I could have shared it with Danny I know that was a special place not to say there are not other special places in OZ for sure.
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Lookin' at the last pic, looks like Ben's back yard is one of those special places...
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Originally posted by WESTBROOK:
Lookin' at the last pic, looks like Ben's back yard is one of those special places...
Mate, the other day we drove 100km to get a pizza. Taking the empty pizza box out to the rubbish bin in the dark is a nervous experience, peering at shadows all around hoping not to get too close to a cheeky snake or a buffalo! It is a special place!
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Just spoke to a guy who lived on Melville for a long time, has family there, and keeps going back. That country is too thick for catching, which makes it ideal for bowhunting. He is saddened by the infighting and petty jealousies between tribal groups that has put an end to several good industries. My hunch is that two weeks on Melville would give me as many close tradbow encounters as I am likely to get in a year in Arnhemland. Better bow-and-arrow country. But, we're still getting the job done with the longbow and recurve out in Arnhemland, some of us. Would love the chance to serve on Melville down the track someday!
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See new OZ post that requires a heavy bow...no argument :D
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Well, maybe in a few more weeks (or months) I can get back in this discussion in a more meaningful manner. As my shoulder heals, I am doing better. I can now shoot my mid 50's bows for 30 to 40 arrows without problem. My immediate goal will be to move back up to the "light-heavy" division (my own definition) and my 65# Wesley Special. If that goes well, I will possibly look at my 78# Bamboo Longhunter. I am 5'9" and weigh about 180#, so, at my size, I consider this "heavy".
This may or may not work out as I wish, but I just hope I can follow all my own advice about working up slowly to avoid injury. I really would prefer to hunt hogs with the heavier bow.
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Denny...here's my 'state side' contributions....
(http://tradgang.com/tg/images8/solana2013hog2.jpg)
(http://tradgang.com/tg/images8/sccade100a.jpg)
(http://tradgang.com/tg/images7/Solana2013hog.jpg)
(http://tradgang.com/tg/images7/hogguru12.jpg)
(http://tradgang.com/tg/images7/freakbuckpostfield3.jpg)
(http://tradgang.com/tg/images7/bird1.jpg)
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(http://tradgang.com/tg/images7/buck2.jpg)
(http://tradgang.com/tg/hogs/blockhead.jpg)
(http://tradgang.com/tg/images7/cohuttabear2.jpg)
(http://tradgang.com/tg/images7/cohuttahog2a.jpg)
(http://tradgang.com/tg/images7/paraboar1.jpg)
(http://tradgang.com/tg/images7/paraboar10.jpg)
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(http://tradgang.com/tg/images5/tgbuff2.jpg)
(http://tradgang.com/tg/images6/xtenpoint1.jpg)
(http://tradgang.com/tg/images8/ncfdoe1a.jpg)
(http://tradgang.com/tg/images7/mowawk35.jpg)
(http://tradgang.com/tg/images6/xgoat2.jpg)
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(http://tradgang.com/tg/images5/terrybbboar.jpg)
(http://tradgang.com/tg/hogs/sc2.jpg)
(http://tradgang.com/tg/hogs/sc4.jpg)
(http://tradgang.com/tg/images/tx2009tgpagebuck.jpg)
(http://tradgang.com/tg/images/tx2009tgpagebuck4.jpg)
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:bigsmyl:
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Terry, You should get out more often.
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Might be time to break out on of the more stout bows.
(http://i.imgur.com/k2v8BH3.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/PQrvkeg.jpg)
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Just a couple weeks ago I took my very first antelope. He was a beauty and had a gross score of right at 74". The shot was at around 23-25 yards and was a little forward of where I wanted it to be. This coupled with the buck's spinning reaction at the shot noise resulted in an impact practically dead center of the near shoulder. He bawled and spun around twice on impact and then limped out about 100 yards and bedded down. I was shooting my 73# Pacific Yew longbow and pushing a 765 grain arrow tipped with a "Simply Traditional" Magnus Classic Single Bevel head. The head split the clavicle on entrance, and then broke the off shoulder as well stopping just short of breaking the skin on the off shoulder. I have NO doubt in my mind that had I been shooting lighter gear that antelope would have endured a lot of pain and probably not been recovered. Hope for the best but plan for the worst. When Murphy rears his ugly head is the reason I shoot heavier gear.
(http://i.imgur.com/yqfJnKc.jpg)
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:thumbsup:
Great job Steve
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Yeah Boy!!!!
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love this thread!
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What do we consider "heavy"? My bows are 57# to 62#.
I have tried lighter bows, like 50#, but I always end up with release problems.
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TTT