So I finally capitulated and bought some carbon arrows in the St. Jude Auction. You know..."For the Children". I really like them. So...
I have been assimilated into your Borglike, non-natural arrow world. So sue me.
I got some Gold Tip Blems from Big Jim today and am gonna take you all along on my virgin voyage into tuning carbons. I am an absolute newb so this is not a tunealong as much as it is an opportunity for you all to laugh at me.
After exhaustive research into bare shaft tuning here on TG, I am ready. I already learned the value of footing with aluminum arrows shaft material when I busted one of my St. Jude carbons, so that will be part of this. In fact, it is the first part of it.
I am tuning these shafts to 2 bows, one is a 47# at 27" glass curve that I got in the TradGang Bowyers Bench Swap from Jess Stuart. The other is a 45# at 27" Ben Pearson recurve that my brother has.
The shafts are 1535s (.600 deflexion I guess???) cause that's all Jim had left. I think these should work out based on the arrow charts I looked at. I am guessing we will be cutting them down to about 28". The tips are 250 grain field points and I am using the aluminum inserts that came with the shafts. In the end, I will be using 100 grain glue on adapters and Ribtek 190s for hunting.
So let's start with the footing. Again, total newb so use this footalong at your own risk. First thing was to dig through all the old arrows I had from years of scavenging at shoots and finding stuff in the woods. Even a few of these are left from my compound days 15 years ago.
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r607/jdscifres/012-3.jpg)
I found several aluminum sizes including 2213, 2219s and 2117s. After some trial and error, I found the 2117s were the best fit. So here we go.
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r607/jdscifres/011-3.jpg)
First thing was to bevel the end before cutting.
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r607/jdscifres/015-3.jpg)
Then cut the tip end to 3/4" which is the length of the inserted part of the insert.
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r607/jdscifres/013-4.jpg)
Then bevel the end using needlenose pliers.
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r607/jdscifres/016-1.jpg)
Here is the before pic.
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r607/jdscifres/017-2.jpg)
Only thing I would change would be maybe going down to 200gr. upfront but you should be in the park.
Your wood arrows will never forgive you!
Rob
I'm also going to put a collar around the nock end that is 1/4".
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r607/jdscifres/018-1.jpg)
I'm using regular epoxy cause that's what I got.
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r607/jdscifres/019-1.jpg)
The dry fit.
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r607/jdscifres/020-1.jpg)
And the 2 footed bareshafts. I did not glue the nock collars yet since I will be cutting the ends as I tune. I epoxied the tip inserts at the same time I glues the footings on.
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r607/jdscifres/023.jpg)
I'll give them 24 hours to set up and in the meantime, you all can remind me how to bareshaft tune. I remember something about tail right meaning something and tail high meaning something but don't recall what :)
Thanks for taking us along! This website really helped me when somebody posted it and i never get tired of returning the favor.
http://www.bowmaker.net/index2.htm
Just abt everything you need to know abt that
For a right hand shooter watching the arrow fly, if the nock/tail end bends to the left it is too weak, bends right it is too stif.
I use a vertical line on the target to give me a reference for right or left shooting. Good luck and have fun.
:campfire:
Always good to watch you work, John. :D
We all come up with our own ways of solving problems, according to our own experiences and equipment. You are using tools that I do not own, so my solutions are different.
I reload metallic case ammunition, so I use a case chamfering tool to clean up the inside of the cut sections of aluminum. I use my arrow saw instead of a hacksaw or tubing cutter. I also use a bench-mounted hand drill to hold the footing instead of needlenose pliers, and a small, fine file on the rotating footing for the outside bevel.
My glue of choice is Gorilla Glue. A light sanding of the arrow shaft under the foot, as well as inside the piece of aluminum, can provide a little extra "tooth", enhancing the glue's ability to hold.
Again, it's good to see the solutions that a superb craftsman like yourself comes up with for a task that many of us are tackling.
Killdeer :campfire:
What purpose does the collars serve?
I would also like to know how these arrows fly when you finish. To me, that sure is a lot of weight up front for a 600.
Did you shoot them bare shaft before cutting them?
Good luck.
Thanks for the link Sequoia. I guess I have to fletch some arrows to follow OL's advice. Is that how you do it?
Thanks Killy. Nice of you to say but I am mostly wingin' it here. One of the CEOs of a company I worked for once said he'd rather get something 80% correct and course correct than to suffer paralysis of analysis trying to get to 100% before you ever implement.
gonefishing600, I guess the collars keep them from splitting. I saw them on a couple other threads and thought they were cool.
The arrows are about 25% FOC with no fletch. We'll see if they fly.
I haven't bare shafted or cut them.
QuoteOriginally posted by gonefishing600:
What purpose does the collars serve?
I would also like to know how these arrows fly when you finish. To me, that sure is a lot of weight up front for a 600.
Did you shoot them bare shaft before cutting them?
Good luck.
The aluminum acts as a footing. It will greatly toughen up the carbon shaft....as mentioned, keeps them from splitting dueto solid impacts or glancing lows.
Yes that's right on the footing. I thought gonefishing was talking about the nock collars. I'd like to hear thoughts on those.
I was trying, in my wordy way, to say that I enjoy watching a talented newbie tackle a task, purely for the new approaches and fresh solutions. I guess i needed a new approach to expressing myself! :biglaugh:
I used Grizzly Stick Woodies for a while, and on a hard hit the nock end would split. That is why I started using nock collars. The problem has not yet arisen with the Gold Tips.
FYI, I am shooting 600s cut to 27.5". My bow is a Hill that I draw 26", and is 47# at that pull. I have found no difference in flight with or without frontal sleeving, which on these I cut 1.5".
I only have them that long so I can use them as a tactile draw check. I can hang a finger out to feel them, as I am not sensitive enough yet to feel the edge creep onto the leather shelf through string and bow hand.
Killdeer
Only thing i would maybe do different would be to sand the Inserts-outside-part down and glue the footing over this, too.
But :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: for the thread and effort!
QuoteOriginally posted by John Scifres:
Yes that's right on the footing. I thought gonefishing was talking about the nock collars. I'd like to hear thoughts on those.
Ahh, I misunderstood.
I was under the impression that the energy ran through the arrow and exited at the nock end...sometimes nocks blow out or carbons can split at that end, too. Since I started using the 1/4" on the nock end, I haven't had either happen.
600 spine out of a 45-47lb bow with all that weight up front? I don't think that's going to work very well but good luck...PR
I weighed my fletched arrows with a 175 grain point and they came to 505 grains. I can shoot 200 to 250 grain points with little appreciable change in impact. I just wanted to keep the GPP more reasonable.
For tuning, I stand a few yards back from the target and paper tune before fletching. When I cut down enough to get bullet holes I move back and make sure they are flying true, then fletch.
Killdeer
Paul WA, You are probably correct. I shot the bare shafts last night. They weren't horrible but I think point weight will help. I haven't started cutting yet. I'm gonna work on it some more tomorrow. We'll see.
Thanks Killdeer. Good info.
I like Kathy's method of combo paper/bare shaft tuning.
I was at a small shoot a while back, and brooks johnson was there, we discussed his method, and it involves shooting bare shafts back to 20 yards, adjusting point weight, until they are in the plate, then fletchesem up.
John,
Here is a tuning method that I have used when using carbon or aluminum arrows that were "given to me" that aren't neccesarily properly spine matched to my bow but the arrow length can't be shortened anymore:
It simply involves changing the tip weight. I usually start with a 100 grain tip and then go up from there. All I do is shoot at a target from about 10 yards. I draw my bow, close my eyes for a moment, open them and quickly focus on a very small spot and release. I repeat 2-3 times. If the shot is consistently high, I add weight until I get it to the right height. (By the way, the reason for closing the eyes is to force you to shoot more instinctively rather than on aiming.) This method was taught to me by a very hunt saavy ol' timer that just couldn't miss.
Now this process assumes that your nock height is already set for the bow you are shooting. This method is great for growing kids as you aren't having to go out and buy them new arrows every time they grow.
OK, back at it. I am following OL Adcock's method, as posted above, as much as I can. My philosophy on learning is to find good instruction and follow it really well the first time I do something before I start ad libbing. Then again, sometimes I just flounder through and use trial and error. In this case, OL seems to have some clout so we'll go with that. Here's the direct link.
OL Adcock on Tuning (http://www.bowmaker.net/index2.htm)
My first goal was to set up the bow as proscribed by the instruction.
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r607/jdscifres/DSC06148.jpg)
I started with the string silencers. These were set by dividing the string into thirds and placing them there. In my case, 17.5" from the ends of the strings. OL said said to set them halfway between the tips and the centers so I guess I didn't follow religiously :)
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r607/jdscifres/DSC06149.jpg)
Then made sure my arrow rest and sideplate were right. I added bits of toothpicks under the existing rugs to adjust.
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r607/jdscifres/DSC06150.jpg)
I then had to sand the nocks to make them less snug. And then on to adjusting brace height. I started at 7-1/8". According to OL, you should adjust from the lowest brace recommended by the bowyer and then shoot 4 arrows. You then raise it until you find the spot where noise and vibration is minimized. For me, I got to 7-7/8" and it seemed real tight. As I got above 8", the vibration and noise got worse so I backed it down to 7-7/8".
Now on to the real tuning.
Good stuff here John...
Thanks for taking us along.
Wayne
John,,,I got bit by the curiousity bug this year too! All the reading and talking to many about carbon arrows got to me. I've made and shot arrows of aluminum, wood, saplings, and cane but always shyed away from the carbons until just a few weeks ago.
I know, I know carbons out of a homemade selfbow! But I just had to try it. I've ended up with full length (30")carbon express 250 "pile driver" with 300 grains up front. Talk about penetration, it is a very noticeable difference. The arrows are bottoming out my old scale at 650 grains, I'm going to have to borrow a friends digital scale to get a true weight.
I'm definately going to follow along this thread, we both have that "what if I do this" kind of curiosity I think.
OK, here is what I came up with. I cut the arrows down to 28.5" and shot the crap out of them all day. I got my brother over here and he shot a bunch too. In the end, the arrows at 28-1/2" with 250 grain points shot the same bare shaft as the did fletched. And they shot better than I could. Here is the last group.
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r607/jdscifres/005-7.jpg)
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r607/jdscifres/006-5.jpg)
I had a few flyers in every group but they were consistently mixed between fletched and unfletched. In fact I would say I was more consistent with the unfletched shafts. They flew great most of the time. Here is a typical good group without the flyers. Mixed bag betweeen fletched and unfletched.
(http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r607/jdscifres/007-5.jpg)
I'd be happy to hear thought on this.
Two questions. What distance did you shoot from? Are you nocking above the nock?
From the looks off those groups, your nock might be a touch low. Anytime you're fetches group larger than your bare shafts, it's likely that you're having some fetching contact.
I suspect you are nocking above the nock, but if you aren't, add a lower one.
I am shooting at 15 yeards. I am nocking below the nock.
Okay, first, add a second nock below the arrow. Leave a little gap so the nock doesn't pinch at full draw. Even with correctly fitting arrow nocks, the arrow will slide down the string upon release, so you want to eliminate that.
I'd also recommend using tie on nock sets, too. They are a lot easier on your gloves, weigh less, and it's easy to make adjustments when necessary.
Once you get the two nocks on, go back and shoot again. Start at 15 yards, like before. If, after a couple of bareshafts, you are hitting the center of the target, go ahead and move back to 20 yards. Take you time between shots, and shoot at least 6 shots with both the fletched and bareshafts. The longer distance will make any needed adjustments more visible.
OK, I did as Looper recommended and also sanded my nocks on several arrows I forgot to do that on. In the end, I got pretty consistent with the shooting. At least as consistent as I have ever gotten. The bow is quiet and the unfletched shafts shot as well as the fletched shafts. The 2 nock points definitely helped. I only have 15 yrds to shoot in my back yard. I have a shoot planned for the 25th so I'll get some longer distances in.
I learned a lot on this and no doubt have a better mathced dozen arrows than I have ever had before. They lack the warmth of wood but they make up for it in shooting. I really like them. I still won't shoot carboons from my selfbows but the glass bows I unt with most will surely use them.
I weighed my arrows this morning and they come in at 525 grains. That's a bit over 11 grains per pound. They fly pretty fast at 15 yards. I'm curious what they look like at 20+.
Balance point is at 21.75 from the nock groove. My overall length without the point is 29". If my math is right, that means an FOC of 25%. Someone check me on that. If I include the point length, the FOC is 21%.
Thanks for the info John. I too got some of the 1535s from Big Jim, didn't really know where to start. They have been laying on my desk for a week or so. Have always used wood or alumn just time for the old dog to try and learn a new trick.
I haven't shot them yet but with the 100 grain adapter and 190 ribteks, the FOC approaches 30%.
Jess, I have been shooting these out of the recurve you made me. I am quite sure at least one of them will end up flying through an Indiana whitetail this fall.