Trad Gang

As of last Friday I find myself on the waiting list for one of Dave Miller's gorgeous bows. I've gotta say he is one of the most friendly bowyers I've ever spoken with (which is saying something as most owners tend to be pretty good guys in my experience) and we probably spent over two hours on the phone this weekend talking about his bows and general gems of Howard Hill wisdom. His knowledge is encyclopedic to say the least and it was fascinating to hear the stories behind how Howard evolved his bow designs over the years.

For those that have been lucky enough to handle and shoot Dave's glassed and all wood bows I'd like to hear your input on the differences between the two (inc how they shoot, durability, feel at the shot etc...).

Also - a few pics couldn't hurt to keep the thread interesting. ;-)

For me, I have shot one of his bamboo composite bows, concave/convex.  It was a good shooting bow.  If I was on the list, I would purchase a glass bow for the durability.  Others have had great experience with all wood bows, but I simply like the durability and longer "shelf-life" of a glass bow.  The shoot-ability is insignificant between the two, especially talking about a bowyer of Miller's talent.  Either way he will build you a great bow.

David has had some of the best teachers on the style and building of Howard Hill bows, John Shultz and John Lee. If I wanted a true Hill bow made the way Howard would have made it I'd have David build it.

I did, and I did. Here's my Miller all bamboo tonkin cane.

  (http://***********.bowsite.com/tf/pics/00small24463459.JPG)

  (http://***********.bowsite.com/tf/pics/00small26478821.JPG)

  (http://***********.bowsite.com/tf/pics/00small11158518.JPG)

I spoke with Dave about the durability of the two options and he didn't seem to think the all wood bows were any different in that regard or lifespan. That had been one of my concerns though, any other perspectives?

Ron, that bow is amazing! Love the myrtle in the riser - almost looks like mammoth ivory or something in the close up. How does it measure up against the glass bows as a shooter?

I have shot all of his models except for the Sage. If you have a all bamboo bow(no glass) built to your draw length from David,I would have no hesitations as far as longevity goes compared to glass ones provided no one and I mean no one with a longer draw than it has been built for shoots it. If someone does you are just asking for trouble in the long run. Flint

Given the cost I suspect the bow will just end up seemlessly melded to my hand until eventually I'm just buried with it....lol. Another shooter getting his mits on it in an unsupervised manner is unlikely.

Thanks for the advice though, my draw length is shorter than most so it warrants being mentioned.

I think to only issue you'd have with an all wood bow vs a glass bow is if you let anyone shoot it with a longer draw length than what it was designed for. That is if you have a 27" draw and David builds the bow to be drawn 27", then if someone come along with a 29" draw and habitually draws it to 29", the the life of the bow is severely shortened.

That said, my Expedition is under construction. PLEASE don't spend any more time on the telephone with David. I've been waiting since last September for my bow. You are keeping him from finishing it.      :bigsmyl:

Hahaha... He did mention he was putting together an Expedition right now as a matter of fact!

Won't be long before it hits your door I'm sure - POST PICS!

Expedition is best of all "Hill" worlds!

What is the Expedition?  I don't see that model listed on his site...

QuoteOriginally posted by Hawkeye:
What is the Expedition?  I don't see that model listed on his site...

Here you go  http://bamboolongbows.com/
The link is in his "contact us" section of his site.

Thanks, Nick.  I had not seen section!

Ttt.... For more pics and advice (hopefully)!

I drove up to Dave's shop and picked up my Old Tom in Feb or March this past spring.  Dave spent 4 hours with me showing me his bows, and his building techniques, we shot some, and I got to hold several of his orginal HH bows.  Very nice guy and he knows a good bit about building a bow.  I also ordered an expedition.

I have a really long draw and Dave was fairly amazed when he saw me pull a 31" shaft up on the shelf.  He told me he didn't think he could build me a wood bow.  He also wouldn't let me pull any of his wood bows he had hanging out in the shop.  Was afraid I'd damage one with my gorilla arms.  

In any case.  If I were going to order a bow from this man (and I will two from him by Christmas this year--God willing) I would order an Expedition.  This is a VERY special Hill bow folks.  Its VERY close to Hill's original design and is made with a very difficult, time consuming concave/convex core that takes more time than he admits.  I asked him how many hours he puts into an Expedition and he said its at least 60-80 hours!  

There is simply nothing out there like it.  He leaves the nodes on the bamboo.  The black fiberglass cloth...its all very unique.  The handle is made very differently than the type of handle you find on HH Bows these days...its much narrower with a very defined ridge on the palm side--very much like Howard's bows.  When you look at it you think--wow, that can't be comfortable.  Doesn't look stable.  But when you hold it and draw it the light clicks and you see why he used it.  Its a VERY easy bow to hold exactly the same way every time.  Your palm finds that ridge on the shooter side of the bow the same way every time!  Genius!

In any case, you might not like the Expedition because it IS so different from what we call a Hill bow now.  But I promise--its a very different bow.

Ron came up to northern Michigan for a break yesterday and I had a chance to shoot the bow pictured above. It's a beautiful bow and shoots very smoothly.

Ron, is that bow the split bamboo or the cc/cv?

Ron's on his way back home this morning. As we were grilling, shooting bows/arrows and watching my daughters plink away with a 100 year old pump Winchester .22 and their bows, Ron placed a call to Dave regarding the construction of his bow. It's a one of a kind and as I said it's a real nice shooter (even though the shelf is on the backwards side of the bow).  The finish, glue lines and leather work are all impeccable. A lot of bowyers are craftsmen, but some cross over to craftsman/artists. I'd definately put this bow in that category.

Rossco, I believe Ron said it's one or the other, but not both on this bow. Be patient, he'll be on here to answer by tomorrow when he catches up.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rossco7002:
Ron, is that bow the split bamboo or the cc/cv?

I talked with David for an hour or so last night.  He said that bow is a special one (that's it, lol)...and Ray is right....Ron should fill us in.

I ordered a split bamboo and will place an order for a "special" Old Tom.  The wait is now around nine months.

Hmmm... A mystery bow. C'mon Ron, let us know the details!

Pending anything unforeseen I suspect I'm gonna go with a string follow Hawk in the 53-55 lbs at 26 inches range. Love the look of the all wood bamboo bows people have posted up.

I figure that weight will deal with anything up to moose size north American game. Any hawk owners able to chime in with some perspective on that sort of draw weight?

I would stop short of moose, elk and caribou is fine with a decent setup.  These bows do shoot slower than glass bows and if you use a heavy arrow they really drop in speed.

Like feeling the fine, smooth, sure function of a swiss watch, it just goes off. No tick and no back-tock.  (http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv247/pukingguts/P1040117.jpg)

Interesting Nate.what weight would you recommend for moose in both glassed or all bamboo? I don't mind a heavy bow but love shooting all the time so don't want one that'll we're out fast at the range.

Depends on your draw length. if you draw 26" I would opt for 65#s    as a good all around weight, you aren't gonna hunt moose every year.

Besides, glass only gives you about 4fps. Shoot as much as you can pull without "straining." Don't even look at his scapula, shoulder knuckle, head, or any other hard spot. I have taken a 375# sow hog with a 50# Wesley special drawn to 26.5" I hit it in the soft spot.

I was wondering when you were gonna wade in with pics of that bow Jesse! Love it. Your bow was one of the things that got me thinking about a miller all natural.

How does it measure up performance wise against a standard Hill style - glassed but without the cc/cv boo?

I have seen 705g efoc carbons from 55#'s drawn to 28" not penetrate a 300# shielded hog.
I think Hill's way is a better way, have a 84#'er for hunting all big game and a 65#'er  for roving and smaller deer game.

These are the tips of a 65# wood bow. A glass bow are even skinnier.
(http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv247/pukingguts/P1040134.jpg)

The Hawk shoots just as fast through the chrono as the Old Tom, the Expedition is 4-5 fps faster than that.
What that chrono won't show you is the increase in stability the far stiffer limbs provide. Stiffness to mass my friend. With CC/CV lams you do not need as much bamboo in there to reach the bow weight. More stiff for less mass= more speed.
Because they are essential cupped like a tape measurer, they track straighter when shot. All these years we have been shooting nock- offs. Hill shot cc/cv for a reason.

My thing is that lighter weight allows me to shoot more and be more accurate. My draw length sucks unfortunately but going up to 65lbs would be a 11 pound increase for me. I also hold at anchor before release (very un-Hill like, I know). So would worry about throwing myself way outta wack.

I'm not a weak guy (ex-army and hostage rescue) but that'd be a big step......

Well, you just answered your own question.
   Apply some "SAS" tactics to this situation.    :cool:

Interesting reference...

Unfortunately moose tend to be much more aware of their surroundings than the average human....lol

Seriously, draw weight advice from those with experience of these bows is greatly appreciated. Do you really feel as high as 65 is optimal?

Flash bang, Swing draw, same idea.
With my 26"  draw, yes. If you are true 28" draw, always, no short shucking when stressed then you will get by with 55# all day, but, short draw stress shot at a funny angle with a 55# only pulled to 25-26" ?????   oh boy, on a moose???  I think when you see a moose with a 65#'er in hand, you'll be wishing you had 80#. You will not even feel that weight when you draw up on a 1000# Bull with an antler spread that you could lay down IN! just don't shoot it every day, it is no different then lifting heavy weights. Less is more.    :campfire:

As far as  arrow velocity, I think a backset Hill with glass is a bit faster than 4 fps than the no glass Millers. I did some shooting 2 weeks ago, and a 68" 40# Hill was faster than my 66" 45# Miller split bamboo.  If I remember it was 5 or 10 fps faster with the same arrow.  I don't remember exactly but 10 fps seems about right.  If you were interested on arrow velocities, that's starting to get pretty significant.

I've never tested it, but even the cv/cx limbs will likely only add a little.

Nate has a good point that you may consider what you like to hunt with and the draw weight for moose because of the size of the animal.  I would add the distance  at which you intend to shoot.  11# increase is a lot to consider. I couldn't do it.  I don't necessarily agree that you need so much draw weight for moose but that's for you to decide.  Guys use self bows pretty successfully too. And if you go glass, why SF?

Rossco, If I was you, I think that I would stay with the weight you are comfortable with, if for no other reason that you will shoot and enjoy it more. If you decide to go on a moose hunt, I would just get another bow for that particular hunt, whether that was a Miller or some other bow. I have shot a moose but with a recurve and a few years ago I went on a cape buffalo hunt and had to move up to an 80# recurve. It took me a solid year to build up to that bow and when I got home, I sold it immediately. I could shoot the bow but just didn't enjoy shooting it. I'm in line for one of Dave Miller's Hawks and can't wait to get it. Those pictures of Swampthing's bow finally pushed me over the edge. Good luck with what ever you decide.

All things being exactly equal the glass bow will shoot the same arrow quicker....

There is a reason why hill switched to glass

..it's a tricky one. For me there is a lot of nostalgia tied up in a bow and part of me wants to have THE ONE at my side on every hunt for the next 20 years (at least) so that it becomes part of the memories. I'm also a big believer in shooting one bow alone providing some real consistency benefits.

I feel like my 54@26 Hill Cheeah would do the job on a moose, particularly if I was taking advantage of some of the modern arrow set ups out there so I'm looking for insight into where I need to go with an all bamboo Hill style to get similar results.

Yeah, agreed Nate, for performance glass is the way to go. I hunt deer and elk. I'll shoot a deer with the Miller without question, but it's more draw wt and glass for elk.

I would guess 65# to get the same performance, and you still may only be close. I never tested heavy arrows, and Nate mentioned they may suffer more with no glass...I don't know.

as for the heavy arrow ... my Miller Ol' Tom gets quite weighed down with heavy arrows ... and the flight is as Mr Schulz would say  "loggy" ...
It much prefers 9gns ... anything much over 10 and they drop way to quick IMHO

Bill you are gonna be pleased, the cc/cv lams in the hawk are a bit faster than the regular s.bamboo.
Again, I would take into consideration the shooters draw length. A 26" draw vs. a 28" draw there is going to be a significant difference. No matter how short the riser, how light the tips are, or how fast you can pull through release. A 26" vs a 28" power stroke difference can only be made up with by Bow Weight. Hill new that in the day, and I don't ever recall seeing him use an upright target stance. 85# standing like a store mannequin will ruin your neck and possibly your elbows. 85# shot in the Hill style will just put a smile on your face.
A lot of indians, Ishi included, shot 24-26" draws. Theirs was a different style than the "Traditional Mediterranean."

:rolleyes:  It wouldn't put a smile on my face.    Maybe a big strained look!  No way in hades this ol' boy could shoot 85#.  the thought even makes me ache all over.  Kudos to you guys who can.

Perhaps it would be in my interests to go with the Expedtion if I'm looking for a go-to bow that I can hunt a variety of species with without having to really jack up the draw weight....

I really wish that the back of the bow didn't HAVE to be black though.....

Paint it!   :D

You could just don a 10 strand padded loop fast flight string to make up the distance in speed.
   :coffee:

QuoteOriginally posted by Rossco7002:

I really wish that the back of the bow didn't HAVE to be black though.....

There are worse things in life than the back of your bow being black...IMHO.    :saywhat:

Very true... I just love the look of that all wood construction! Perhaps black on the back and then clear on the belly with gloss finish will suit me just as well.....

Haha  ... I don't think I even saw a bow with clear galss until 10 years ago ... But yeah Rossco .... the natural wood look can be a deal clincher .
Check out Danny's [ Ric O'Shay ] Tembo for how sweet coloured glass can be . Also Dave Miller will explain why he likes his coloured glass to you ... something about the way the fibres are woven or similiar ... he must be onto something as my yew lam  brown glass Ol' Tom is just plain sweet !

Clear glass is much softer than the colored glasses. Put some sandpaper to black/brown glass then try that with some clear.

When you take it hunting, just use limb skins. I do that for turkeys or finicky deer. Then it's all good!

A good. Hybrid will outshoota hillstyle at10 1lbs less bow weight and as much as 20 ft per sec.faster w the same arrow I like the speed and shootability.

Arrow_f, I have a couple of Hill style bows that will shoot right with anything on the market regardless of how many bends there are in the limbs, with the added advantages of forgiveness of chunky releases and deadly quiet. Regardless of what a bow has for an outside skin, accurate and deathly quiet is always more deadly than fast and loud. Many people do not use the proper form with Hill style bows and thus think that they are inferior, when in reality it the shooter that is not taking advantage of the qualities of the bow. It really is still no sweat, use what works for you, hybrids are fun to play with as well.

Anybody got any pics of an Expedition they can post up? I'd particularly like to see some pics of the back and belly of the bow as well as the riser....

how long is the wait time now for a miller?

9 months..... :-(

Here is a Hawk, just imagine some black glass over the back. (http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv247/pukingguts/DSC_8253.jpg)

That Hawk is sexy!

You'll love whichever one you decide on!

David sent me an email tonight about my Expedition. First two coats of finish are on. In 48 hours he'll sand and put the writing on and then the finish coats. Should be ready to head to Texas next week. I'll be sure to post up some pics when it gets here.

BTW - My order was placed last September.

that expedition scares me,, I hate skinny grips and I need more wood even slight palm swell like the older hills but more like the rounded grip that the shultz had on it s american longbow.. is there grip options with the millers?

Dave will do any grip you want or replicate one that you have and already like.

What are the specs on that expedition Danny?

Ted -

Other than personal preference, there is no reason to be scared of the "narrow" handles of the Miller or other Hill style bows. I heard somewhere that Howard preferred the narrow/thin handle because it helped him to get the same grip or hand placement of the handle each and every time. Howard, I believe, understood that folks are different. In his book, Hunting The Hard Way, he states, "the handle section can be fashioned into any shape that fits the hand of the archer who is to shoot the bow." Whatever floats your boat.....

Rossco7002 - it is 66" 55# @ 28".

Danny

Very nice!! 9 months seems like a long way away - you must be chomping at the bit waiting for it to arrive.....

very good info,,, I talked to dave and he said its 10 months out..  he doesn't get too detailed in the e-mail but I'm stuck on the fenc about a string follow which I really really want but should I get glass for more durability, speed, just not sure.... wish I could try all 3 side by side..

Ross -

It's been awhile.....    :bigsmyl:    

but ya' know, I think I can almost hold my breath till next week.     :thumbsup:

QuoteOriginally posted by Ric O'Shay:
Ted -

Other than personal preference, there is no reason to be scared of the "narrow" handles of the Miller or other Hill style bows. I heard somewhere that Howard preferred the narrow/thin handle because it helped him to get the same grip or hand placement of the handle each and every time. Howard, I believe, understood that folks are different. In his book, Hunting The Hard Way, he states, "the handle section can be fashioned into any shape that fits the hand of the archer who is to shoot the bow." Whatever floats your boat.....

Rossco7002 - it is 66" 55# @ 28".

Danny

Every time I think I will do something different than Howard, I find later that he seemed to have found the best way...and learn my lesson!  It's happened over multiple issues... If you can copy how he shot, and do it well, you'll probably be a successful archer.  Maybe no Howard, but a solid archer.  I sure wish I could shoot heavy bows like he did.  It would eliminate a lot of misses low at longer ranges.

hey Ric sorry I missed your post about the grip and your right but have you ever been in that position where you know what you like but your also thinking "what if this new shape is better" so you know you'll never get to hold one first and you have to decide if its a decent 1200 dollar gamble--> stay with what works or seek something better that may never be found..

also if its 10 months that gives me a couple months to decide so the bow will be ready just in time for deer season next year.

QuoteOriginally posted by swampthing:
You could just don a 10 strand padded loop fast flight string to make up the distance in speed, as the expedition is dacron only.
   :coffee:  

My Expedition arrived today. Included with it was a FF string, and a Dacron string.
The Expedition shoots both.
also,
David, today told me he prefers Dacron in general, for both wood and glassed bows, because switching from wood to glass bows, FF strings would put his arrows high.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rossco7002:
Anybody got any pics of an Expedition they can post up? I'd particularly like to see some pics of the back and belly of the bow as well as the riser....

I just got mine today, and will photograph it tomorrow ... my first day with it. I will post them

QuoteOriginally posted by swampthing:
Here is a Hawk, just imagine some black glass over the back.   (http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv247/pukingguts/DSC_8253.jpg)

The Expedition is the same bow profile, only with glass.

QuoteOriginally posted by Tajue17:
very good info,,, I talked to dave and he said its 10 months out..  he doesn't get too detailed in the e-mail but I'm stuck on the fenc about a string follow which I really really want but should I get glass for more durability, speed, just not sure.... wish I could try all 3 side by side..

Why don't you visit David ? When you see them in front of you, making a decision is easier.
 re .... "I'm stuck on the fenc about a string follow which I really really want but should I get glass for more durability, speed, just not sure...."
if you say string follow is what you really want, why doubt yourself ?  you want string follow ... get string follow ..
I believe,"first thought, is best thought."
btw ...
It makes no difference which type you pick; Why? because the next one you get will be the other type.....
They are all good !

Congrats on getting your bow Ralphie. Looking forward to the pics.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rossco7002:
Perhaps it would be in my interests to go with the Expedtion if I'm looking for a go-to bow that I can hunt a variety of species with without having to really jack up the draw weight....

I really wish that the back of the bow didn't HAVE to be black though.....

For me .. I would have preferred brown glass. And David (in the beginning of my wait told me "fine". But later into my wait during a conversation, (he has a lot of conversations ...), he said black glass was the only option.
His reason was that glass over the contours of the bamboo had only worked out 100% of the time with the black glass.
(Apparently, he tried other than black, and the glass had not worked.    ... ?) . He must know.)
I learned to love the black!

The bow is named "Blackie"

Will do "drop dead" shots today

C'mon! Where's the pics already! Lol

The first time I saw Howard's Bow that Dave has with the narrow handle I looked at it and said--damn, that can't be comfortable.  But then I held it and understood completely!  

One of the top 7 components of good archery form is a repeatable grip that sits in your hand the same way every time!  

When you hold Howard's grip it goes exactly the same place in your hand every time.  You feel that narrow ridge and know right away if its where it should be or out of position.    It was a revelation!

Contrast that with most bow grips where you often struggle to keep a consistent grip or position in your hand and have to make a conscious effort to maintain that grip from shot to shot.

Ralphie,

If we don't see some pics real soon, there is going to be a lynch mob headed to New York with a big can of Whoop Ass!

LOL

QuoteOriginally posted by lefty4:
Ralphie,

If we don't see some pics real soon, there is going to be a lynch mob headed to New York with a big can of Whoop Ass!

LOL

Everyone meet at my house,then we just have to cross the state line.I've got a few pitchforks and clubs,but you'll need your own torches.  :knothead:

What time?

(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/MillerExpedition18.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/MillerExpedition17.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/MillerExpedition11.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/MillerExpedition10.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/MillerExpedition7.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/MillerExpedition5.jpg)

Shot it all day.
I have to say it is in all ways equal or better than my Old Tom, and my Sage. The Expedition is most like the Old Tom. But I think more accurate .... for me this first day, anyway.
I cannot see how I will not use it as the go to bow, right away.
Miller has topped himself with this Expedition.
I am thinking now to order a Hawk.
phew.

Couple more ....
    please no hoods ........

   (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/MillerExpedition16.jpg)
   (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/MillerExpedition14.jpg)
 
   (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/MillerExpedition3.jpg)  (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/MillerExpedition13.jpg)
   
 (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/MillerExpedition8.jpg)  (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/MillerExpedition4.jpg)
I did my best for you guys, to show the build details,  ..  which I find stunning.

Well OK Ralphie. The pictures were worth waiting for. What a bow!

I am jealous. But I must say that the arrow rest is on the wrong side!

Thanks for the pics!

Nice bow, that is how it went with me after the Expedition I had to have the Hawk.

Nice! I'm beginning to get the feeling I won't stop with just one of Dave's bows either.......

Ralphie,

Your new bow looks stunning. I have an order with Mr. Miller and isn't scheduled for delivery until February, so I have some time to decide on the specifics of the bow, like Hawk or Expedition.    

I am very interested in your overall opinion on your choices for this bow, I would like your thoughts on:
String follow vs reflex?  
Glass vs no glass?  

Again, a stunning bow and great pictures.
Joe

QuoteOriginally posted by JohnI:
Nice bow, that is how it went with me after the Expedition I had to have the Hawk.

I thought about it, and it seemed like the Split Bamboo might be better than a Hawk for the next bow.
I have an Expedition in glass now, a Sage, and an Old Tom.
It seems like a Split Bamboo would be more of a "different thing".
forgive for this analogy .....
With photography, getting a second lens had to always make sense. It should never be so close in focal length to not be a dramatic difference. It should be very different ... (to me anyway).
The Split Bamboo would be different.
Like the Sage is different than the Old Tom, and both are different than the Expedition..
All the bows I have are (to me, and for me ... "equal", in my mind.).
By equal I mean, "as good as" ..... from a quality ... shooting point of view.
Each one stands alone.
The same standard I have always used to judge the validity of my photo images.
Each new one, has to be to me as good as everything else I have ever done.
So until I change my mind, ( have a year at least with Miller's popularity !)
Until then it is a Split Bamboo next.
and the following year a Hawk

Dave's Split Bamboo model is the smoothest sweetest shooting bow he makes imho I have one of them also.  You wouldn't be able to tell one apart from the Hawk appearance wise, but the performance isn't quite as good as the Hawk. They are though the sweetest shooting of all Dave's bows, and as accurate as any of them.

Joe, re;
"I am very interested in your overall opinion on your choices for this bow, I would like your thoughts on:
String follow vs reflex?
Glass vs no glass?
I think I have been lucky, by stumbling upon Miller bows. So far they have all been fine. Miller's different models, all have a lot different about them, in shooting characteristics, and often in looks.
My experience is limited to the bows I have; an Old Tom, glassed 45# backset, straight grip 45@28 68"
Sage 68" 50@28 straight grip,string follow.
And now the Expedition 46@28 straight grip backset.
Ok
With wood, all wood bows I would go string follow or straight
With glassed bows I would go backset, or straight.

I have no preference glassed or all wood.
Going from shooting, say, an Old Tom one day, to a Sage the next day, it always takes me a couple of arrows to reset mentally how I shoot.
in general ... for me
I find my experience says, for me, the glass bow is faster, and flatter shooting.
A wood bow, (and string follow is all I have) .......a wood bow is slower,    (especially so a string follow one) .....and smoother.
ie.
When I was offered the 50# Sage, used, I hesitated ..... I am 45- 47# shooter .......   not , never , ever... 50# ...
ok     but I went for it anyway.
what a dream to shoot !
No problem the 50#. I was kind of shocked about that. I asked David why is the sage 50# easy. He said string follow makes drawing easier to begin with and smoother on release. I cannot do a 50# recurve !
In closing; follow you instinct. Get what you really want. Try what you don't know, if you have time.
But one way or another "no worries" is the order of the day.

I see they zapped my photos above.
The link
 
goes to the photo bucket albums. (please excuse the HH Redman, in with the group ......lol   )

No need to excuse the Redman Ralphie, it's a sweet looking bow too!

What differences do you see between the HHA bows and Miller ones?

I am sorry you misunderstood,  .. I was joking.

As was I. Lol ;-)

I wonder why the pictures were deleted ?

I actually love the looks of that Redman. I've got a Cheetah styled in a similar way (ebony riser with wine colored wrap to match the juniper limbs) which is my best shooting bow.

Sorry,
I am just a little bummed out about the pictures being deleted.
That was hard work.
Looks like it was for nothing

Looks like a photobucket issue, not tradgang

How do you figure that?

Let's see if this comes out
  (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/Expedition/MillerExpedition1.jpg)
  (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/Expedition/MillerExpedition7.jpg)
 (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/Expedition/MillerExpedition10.jpg)
 (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/Expedition/MillerExpedition11.jpg)

maybe it was photobucket   ...?

Thats a beauty Ralpie David is a Master without a doubt. You made a great choice. I have a couple of his hawks and they sre really dead in hand hardly handshock to speak of and feel different than glassed bows. I would love to own an expedition, maybe someday... Ron.

I figured it out based on the icon showing where your pics used to be. They indicate a broken link or missing file

Thanks Keith !

I figured out that    I    caused the photos to be deleted. In photobucket I moved the photos into sub albums. That caused the delete. What an idiot I am !

Ron,
thanks!

QuoteOriginally posted by Rossco7002:
I actually love the looks of that Redman. I've got a Cheetah styled in a similar way (ebony riser with wine colored wrap to match the juniper limbs) which is my best shooting bow.

The Cheetah I had was fitted with a wedge grip, which I could not get used to. But is was a beautiful bow otherwise.
I would like one day to find a Cheetah with a straight grip.
I like yew, for both the way it shoots, and looks. The Redman is a fine yew HHA bow.
Millers and HHA's are just different. For me they are both 100% worthwhile to own and shoot.

I have a Half Breed with some tempered bamboo and yew in the limbs. Snakewood riser and silver elk inlay. It's a looker and a shooter too.... But the extra weight in the Cheetah really is addictive.

Can't get enough of your Expedition pics Ralphie, very handsome bow!

If I was to buy a miller longbow it would be with glass and abit of backset like my wesley special. I do not see any advantage in going back to the old days before fiberglass remember Howard hill jacked up the weight on his bows to get the cast up and when glass came along he never looked back.

Can't get enough ? ...    here's some more then
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/Expedition/MillerExpedition2.jpg%5B/IMG%3Cbr%20/%3E%20%5Bimg%5Dhttp://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/Expedition/MillerExpedition3.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/Expedition/MillerExpedition4.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/Expedition/MillerExpedition14.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/Expedition/MillerExpedition8.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/Expedition/MillerExpedition18.jpg)

I agree with arrow flynn.
At least, ...  my first Miller was the Old Tom with a bit of backset.
But I have made a concession to taking a "step backwards". That is, I will begin to use Dacron b-50 on my Old Tom, backing off from the FF.
I don't know how long that will last..............  ..
My reason is to try and find some consistency from bow to bow. From a glass to a wood is change enough. If they both have B-50 maybe changing is not so different ?
Hey what do I know ?...

Awesome pictures Ralphie. You should become a photographer!

LOL

Very nice bow.

QuoteOriginally posted by pavan:
Arrow_f, I have a couple of Hill style bows that will shoot right with anything on the market regardless of how many bends there are in the limbs, with the added advantages of forgiveness of chunky releases and deadly quiet. Regardless of what a bow has for an outside skin, accurate and deathly quiet is always more deadly than fast and loud. Many people do not use the proper form with Hill style bows and thus think that they are inferior, when in reality it the shooter that is not taking advantage of the qualities of the bow. It really is still no sweat, use what works for you, hybrids are fun to play with as well.

X2

Given the discussion between glassed or all bamboo is the original intent of this post I thought it might be pertinent to mention that I recently had the good fortune of another member who owns several of Dave's glassed and non-glassed bows to pass on his chrono results to me.

End result was that the Hawk shot right with Dave's other bows and even out performed some other Hill style builders.

Resultantly, I'm definately leaning towards the Hawk but Ralphie and Danny have really made it a hard choice with the pics of their Expeditions....

Ross
thank you for the chrono info. My next Miller will be a Hawk, rather than a Split Bamboo.

and to make your "wood versus glass" choice even more difficult, ...
I offer you some pictures of my Sage,           I guarantee this will really do a number.....
   (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/Sage/L1000983.jpg)
   (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/Sage/L1000984.jpg)
   (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/Sage/L1000987.jpg)
   (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/Sage/MillerSage50286810.jpg)
   (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/rafaelmacia/Sage/MillerSage50286812.jpg)

Beautiful Ralphie!  Pure beauty....

I'll be she shoots as good as she looks!

Keep the wind in your face!

Shoot straight, Shinken

  :archer2:

That is absolutly one of the best looking bows I have ever seen. I talked with David Miller today. Now choices......   :dunno:

Ralphie -
I need you to take some pictures of my Expedition for me. The ones I take have quite a bit of gravity attached to them.

  :saywhat: