Am looking to go up some in bow weight and was wondering at what weight point the limbs start getting so heavy that they pass their peek return?
I would contact the bowyer and see if he had that info. I would think it would be affected according to design. A deep cored longbow might be different that a recurve.
This topic has been discussed a lot, and it seems a lot of people have very different ideas about what diminishing returns actually means. I think the best weight is the one you shoot well. If you shoot 100# well, go for it, but if you can only shoot 40# well, that is just fine too. So what is the bow isn't perfectly efficient, the deer with his lungs shot out doesn't know the difference.
I think gringol hinted at it. The better question would be at what point would the archer start loosing his personal peek return. A custom bow can be crafted at any weight a human can shoot it.
The question is regarding the 'power produced' in proportion to the 'mass weight required to produce the power'.
A bow that pulls 400# is going to be too bulky in the limbs to be fast. Or explained another way, after some point, a 10% increase in bow weight is going to only start giving a 9%, 8%, 7%, 6%, etc. increase in performance.
I've heard that it's often around the mid-50's, but dependent on the bow design.
I do believe this is an individual bow design/materials answer. I once had a custom bowyer tell me in the testing he had done on his bows that 57# @ 28 was his tipping point. After that he got less increase in speed/lb. of draw weight with the same weight arrow. Whether that is the correct measurement is another entire topic of debate.
D.P.
Jack Howard told me that between 55 and 60 on his bows was where things started to fall in efficiency. I think that even with Hill style longbows there will be different results depending on the the individual tiller of the bow. I have seen 90 pounders shoot the same arrow slower than another longbow that was over twenty pounds lighter, but when I got a heavier bow made by the same maker I was surprised that the added weight did not give me much in performance over the one that is only 64 pounds. But really enough power is enough power, if the slower heavier one is what gives you accuracy go for it. I hit more pheasants per attempt with that slow 90 pounder than any other bow, so higher speed or less draw weights are not the only answers for everyone to achieve accuracy for hunting shots.
My first question would be about intended purpose. Are you hunting 100# whitetails or 1500# eland? The heavier weight bow will allow you to use heavier arrows at killing speed and extended distances if you do your part.
Personally, I believe the 60# bow with 600 gr. arrows are adequate for just about anything on the planet that's legal to kill.
Carbon foam changes everything
I always thought it was at 55#, but things have changed somewhat.
I would think it would be different for different bows. No one range will be correct for every bow out there.
Look at the differnt in performance between the ACS design and the average Hill style longbow.
Troy
Hey Widowdoublelung, why does carbon foam change everything?
Thanks!
Marco
I have a bow that John Schulz built 40 years ago, if you did not know this you could not tell that it was my primary bow up until two years ago and has shot an average of over a thousand arrows a week for all of those years. I have a friend that always gets the fastest bows he can find, the one he has now is only three years old and he shoots just on occasion and the there is stress in the glass right where his last one broke. He bought a foam carbon used, liked how fast it was for two weeks, it started to come apart. He called and asked what hill would be a good bow for him, the first thing I told him was to man up and stop trying to draw like he was 7 foot tall, he is under 6 foot like me. He may lose arrow speed but he will gain in deer meat if he follows through. Slow and silent is always deadlier than fast and loud.
Carbon and foam are lighter in weight than what it previously took to make heavy weight limbs therefore giving you more performance from heavier limb.
The theory of deminished return starts when I string my long bow or recurve no matter the draw weight.
James
Over the years this has changed.... at 60-65#@ 28"
Your gain is per pound is less. If you are shooting 80# on real big game, it is needed. Deer, elk, moose 50# will do the job... the right bow- arrow setup 45# is more than sufficient.
QuoteOriginally posted by pavan:
... the first thing I told him was to man up and stop trying to draw like he was 7 foot tall, he is under 6 foot like me. He may lose arrow speed but he will gain in deer meat if he follows through...
Hi Mr. Dean, I am little confused by your statement. Was your friend greatly overdrawing the bow for it's length? BTW congrats on shooting the same bow for so long with so many arrows through it. Maybe one day I will settle down to one bow. Still playing for now.
I've asked this question of both Dave Windauer and Dick Robertson.
Both gentlemen said what Fred Bear said. Over 60# and you don't gain as much after that.
I do know that from personal experience, and owning a chronograph, I have NO use for 77# limbs anymore.
I just wish that someone would quantify it a little better. This has been posted on a bunch. Does going up from 60 to 70# give you 90% of the gain that going from 50 to 60# does? Is it less/ more. I know that it will be different for each model of bow, but there should be some data out there. Saying that you don't gain much is such a relative statement. I know that you don't need high poundage for North America, but acting like there is no difference in performance for a ten pound jump isn't right either.
Perhaps Kikk, Sixby, and other bowyers on this forum could give a comment.There are a lot of personal answers but none from the experts, without expert input, everything else is speculation,.
QuoteOriginally posted by pdk25:
I just wish that someone would quantify it a little better. This has been posted on a bunch. Does going up from 60 to 70# give you 90% of the gain that going from 50 to 60# does? Is it less/ more. I know that it will be different for each model of bow, but there should be some data out there. Saying that you don't gain much is such a relative statement. I know that you don't need high poundage for North America, but acting like there is no difference in performance for a ten pound jump isn't right either.
3 questions:
1) If a 60# shoots a 600 Gr Arrow at "X" FPS. Then, would the 70# Bow shoot a 600 Gr Arrow at greater FPS?
2) If a 60# shoots a 600 Gr Arrow at "X" FPS. Then, would the 70# Bow shoot a 700# Arrow at "X" or "Y" FPS? Would it still be "X"? No Change in FPS?
3) If a 60# bow exerts "X" amount of force, would a 70# bow exert "X" + 10? Or would diminished returns set in and the 70# bow exerts "X" + 9? Or "X"+ 8? Or "X"+ 7? Etc?
Matt
QuotePerhaps Kikk, Sixby, and other bowyers on this forum could give a comment.There are a lot of personal answers but none from the experts, without expert input, everything else is speculation,.
I pay attention to what the poster at the top of the page says. His handle is Bowbldr for a reason.
My shoulder and neck DON`T hurt anymore due to loving 48 lbs and less the last few years.
Good question but no need for brain straining for me on it.RC
I'm not sure on where the diminishing returns start exactly. seems 60-65 is consensus. Though, I do find it oddly ironic to also be the limit where most people start saying that we are now pulling 'tooo much bow' to be 'comfortable' or accurate.
We need to remove the 'overbowed' feelings from the equation, because they are emotionally charged and entirely relative.
I think matt is on to something, because its partly a paradigm issue. The verbage of the question itself is dependent on definition.
His question is the one that is relevant to me. In other words, in real word shooting (the first 50-80 arrows), I feel every bit as comfortable shooting 60# as I do 80#. As such to me the "diminishing" point of return I am concerned with is the point where the extra pounds no longer produce more momentum. At any time there is a relative gain in momentum, I'm interested.
It makes sense to me to shoot a lighter bow, say a static tip recurve, that will produce the same momentum as a heavier bend in the handle d-bow, providing you can get such a bow quiet.
However, given all things equal, like accuracy and point of impact, I'll take the heavier weapon as long as it produces a gain in penetration power.
Dan
on a different note, IME, it also produces gains in speed because as I increase in weight it is more difficult to get over 11 gp #... but that is a relative thing again since I am favorably changing a variable.
The other thing, if we are talking 'gains' then we Are speaking of a peak, not a plateau that drops off. A 1# bow won't be very efficient in relation to limb weight.
And every bow and archer combo would produce a differing peAk. Finding that spot would be exhausting on so many levels. For the individual archer/bow combo it may be doable, but who would have the Money to obtain all the Correctly spined arrows to go through the various combos? Not to mention the theoretical changes of other factors like arrow style and FOC...
Your are correct, Bob Morrison is an expert and I respect his opinion. Good discussion for those that shoot bows over 60#.
I started a thread on this a couple months ago. Look it up in the search.
OK, I'll answer it...41 pounds. ;) :D :biglaugh:
I'm getting passthru's with 40lbs, so I'm not sure how much further I need my arrow to go once it passes thru the deer.
I am in full agreement with Mojostick. Don't understand question really. Way too many variables. One thing I believe is that a #45 bow overdrawn to 30" producing an estimated #51 of actual draw weight (if that is your draw length) is more efficient than a bow of #51 drawn to 28". But I know a 40-45 lb bow is deadly on deer and black bear. See youtube video of tracy shooting a bear with #39 zipper bow. Full pass thru and bear was moaning dead on audio within seconds! Bottom line is, shoot as heavy as you are happy with and capable with. More important is matching arrow weight to maximize effectivness of bow. More important yet is hit 'em right!!!!
I have had heavy Hill style bows that were slow and some that were faster than the slow ones at the same poundage, but my 64 pound Legend Schulz was as fast with the same arrow than most of the heavy weight bows and the same draw lengths. I tried drawing the the heavy slow ones an inch or two further and was surprised what I found. Those slower heavy bows did not change as much with varied draw lengths as my 64 pound Schulz longbows which in turn did not vary as much in cast per draw length as my fast takedown BW recurve. So from that I assumed that part of the hunting success that I had from the heavy longbows was that I got a very predictable arrow flight even if at times I may have short drawn from nerves or drew long from adrenalin. A heavy draw heavy limbed longbow has to move less of that heavy limb at a shorter draw and more of it at a longer draw, static hysteresis. I do not believe that the equation works the same with recurves as the limbs function differently.