Hello,
I am relatively new to the Tradgang forum, but I have benefited greatly from your conversations and recently joined when I started making my own bows. Your help and expertise has been very helpful.
I am writing with a question for those folks that live in the West Michigan(Muskegon-Holland)Lakeshore area. Anyone else can chime in as well...
Here is my question. Would you like to see a good old fashioned brick and mortar Traditional Archery Shop open in this area?
If so, what bows, accessories would you like to see? Shooting lanes? Let me know.
I am considering the venture. Right now I am just testing the waters to see of there is some interest.
I value your down to earth, and very real, opinions and knowledge on this matter. Any advice would be much appreciated.
Thanks!
PS - I hope I am not overstepping my bounds by proposing a business venture on the Tradgang forum. Like I said, I value your knowledge and the sport greatly. I truly love the sport and have the best interest of the sport and you all in mind.
I would like to see one. ALL the accessories, points, feathers, jigs, shafts, arrows. Bows: Michigan bowyers(Two Tracks, Great Northern, Journeyman, Northern Mist,etc), Hill, Zipper, Stalker, Bear, and a consignment area for used bows. Staves and tools for selfbows. How's that for a start. Maybe some Hunters Image and other Michigan wool products too.
I would like to see all the trad archery shops the area will support. There sure aren't many.
I assume you know about Black Dog Outfitters on M-57 near US-131.
Ron
yes
im with owlbait is like to see some michigan made products for sale there also
it would be nice to have a place that caters to trad archers
i dont have a problem mail ordering most everything i need from trad gang sponsors
but it would be cool to have a place closer than rockford for us lakeshore guys
Well Michael, just living in Michigan you hit the lottery. We've got Kzoo in the winter, Comptons in the summer, and some great vendor turnout at several other shoots during the summer. Next really big event I can think of is Great Lakes Longbow Invitational next month. You'll see most of the cast of characters there.
Other than BDO I can't think of a great trad shop within an hour. I shoot at a wheelie shop in Allendale 3 nights a week just because the lanes are empty most of the year.
There are some good 3D courses you can shoot on the weekends, but some of the good ones aren't very well publicized. 3 of us guys from Grand Haven were just shooting one today and will probably go back next weekend. Shoot me a PM if you're interested.
Thom
owlbait hit a homer. That would be great. Even maybe a couple few 3-D targets out back to shoot at. Fingers crossed over here. :pray:
Thommy! don't that sound great!!
I don't think any one shop can stock all we would like to see and I certainly would not mind driving an hour or so if necessary to have an alternative source. Great as our on-line opportunities are, I like to buy as much as possible locally, whether trad bow stuff or gun stuff. If we don't support out local shops, we get Wally World as an alternative and they will tell us what we need.
I wish you all the best and hope it flies for you.
I think it will be tough because as mentioned above, you've got the traditional expo in the winter and Compton's in June and GLLI in August. Most guys can fill in with mail order (here in 1-2 days from Kustom King or 3 Rivers or Lost Nations). My thought is you would need to have a draw (stock bows from several high profile bowyers and or an indoor range with DART system) to make a run at it. Certainly wish you the best of luck if you do it.
As stated Black Dog Outfitters Tom and Ryan do an excellant job, when ever I am in GR visiting LimbLover my son I always stop and purchase something from them! A+++++
As one who owned a sporting goods store in Michigan, let me give you a very large warning.
I was a founder and owner of Baldwin Bait and Tackle, which is mainly a fishing/fly fishing store, but located near the very busy Pere Marquette river.
I sold my interest in the store a few years back and the store is doing well, but that's only because it's right next to a major year round fly fishing destination known around the world.
Your problem of having just a bow shop near the lake shore is several fold. There's population problems, traffic and cash flow concerns.
Unless you're going to add fishing stuff, which can do very well by the lake shore, you're not going to get enough people thru the doors, year round, to make it. You're not near a major expressway that has lots of "non-locals" and you're tucked away from the major population centers in southern Michigan and those who have the most money to spend.
There aren't enough traditional bowhunters, and probably not even enough compound bowhunters in the area to justify the investment.
Ask this, how much business do you have to do a day to keep your doors open and the lights on? $1000 a day? Do you think you can do a grand a day, average, to pay the bills and support yourself? Do you own the building? Will you close during the winter? Do you realize with a start up bow shop that you'll be working when everyone else is scouting, hanging stands and hunting?
I understand your excitement about the idea, but unless you're in an area near tons of people, with money and with tons of traffic, you won't make it against the big box stores, online powerhouses and places like Jays.
Blackdog is on M-57 about 1/2 mile off the 131 interstate which flows north and south, about 20 minutes north of the metro-Grand Rapids area with roughly 1,000,000 people and they also cater to waterfowl hunters, fishermen, compound and rifle hunters.
I'm in there all the time. In fact, I called Tom up this afternoon. Great shop!
I realize Holland is close to Grand Rapids and that 196 is an expressway, but far fewer people are driving in that direction compared to the sportsmen that use US 131. And Holland is more like a bedroom community vs the major expressway people from Metro Detroit, Grand Rapids, Lansing, Ohio, Indiana and Illinois take when traveling to northern Michigan.
Unless you have people constantly walking thru the doors and dropping cash on big ticket items, you won't make it.
Sorry to throw the cold water, but I speak from experience.
I'm not saying it's impossible, but unless you're in a killer location near an expressway/highway crossing, with great frontage, and you make sure you have constant people walking thru the doors and cater to fishing too and and close to a fishing destination and you want to work tons and tons of hours for little money the first few years, you'll be hard pressed to make it.
Great advice fellas! I am going to process it all! Thanks!
I have always thought a traditional archery shop in Dundee, near Cabelas, would do well.
What Mike (owlbait) said but that comes with a huge BUT. And the BUT is what MOJOSTICK said. My dad had an archery shop back in the 50's and 60's. He shut it down in 69. He could not compete with the big box stores as they were under-selling him. His main business was service and he got sick of servicing bows and arrows from K-mart. Dad had Mr. Archery's name behind him also. His store was called Bear Archery Shop of Muskegon.
With that being said, traditional archery, has taken a huge leap forward in the last few years so with a store with stocked shelves ,lanes to shoot in and GOOD service will probably make it.
I know that I would support a traditional archery shop if it was withing 50 miles of the house. good luck
I agree that a very nice traditional archery shop could do well near Cabela's or Jays. However, I'd still suggest blending it with a nice fly fishing shop, perhaps higher end kayaking/hiking gear, etc.
You still need foot traffic thru the door. It's more likely that a person who comes in to get some fly tying materials would be open to traditional bows, if he's a deer hunter, and vice versa.
There's a reason the small mom and pop sport shops are a dying breed. It's not just difficult to keep the doors open anymore, it's extremely difficult.
I'd also suggest any new store having a nice website set up and running before the doors are open. There is room out there for a very "on top of it" clearing house for used traditional bows, on consignment, when mixed with a moderated chat forum. But then you'd have to be very active on posting new pictures of bows so that people want to check your site all the time to see what's new.
How many used bows do you plan to have when you open? 10? 40? None? What makes you think Bear or a fly rod company wants to become a dealer with an unknown?
Does your wife have a good job to support you bringing in nothing for possibly a few years?
Is your house paid off?
Can you borrow an emergency $50,000 if need be? Are you prepared to make that gamble?
Again, I'm not trying to kill off your dream, but I do want to scare you straight and make you understand that it won't be easy.
Also, I suggest you get a job in a sport shop and learn the ropes on someone elses dime for a few years. After 5 years in another shop, you should have a pretty good sense if you want to bother with it.
The other warning is, understand that you may not like traditional archery as much once it becomes your job. There's a reason so many fly fishermen who love the sport get into guiding, then never want to fish again after they guide for a few years.
Mojostick has some pretty good thoughts.
I have talked extensively with guys like Tim Cosgrove of Kustom King about the business side of traditional archery. One of the problems is that we don't buy much stuff. Take me for example.....traditional archery is my main outdoor hobby. And unless I buy a new bow, I MIGHT spend $200-$300 per year. And that is stretching it.
I spend more on non archery specific accesories...clothing, boots, treestands, etc. Which leads us right back to why the Big Box sporting goods stores typically crush the niche independant.
Frankly, I think a better model is internet based, with an unlimited potential of whom might look at your inventory.
Well, unless you have other places to have constant cash flow, like fishing or very nice 3D ranges, exactly how do you make money in March, April, May, June and July?
But, you can offer the niche that the bigger stores don't. For example, maybe talk to Family Traditions Treestands. They're Michigan based and top notch, but most places don't carry them because of price. But trad guys like great quality and stuff made in the USA and not China or Mexico, so there's an idea of a super, made in the USA treestand that you can't see in person at most places.
Do you know anything about bamboo fly rods? Custom wooden canoes? Custom flintlock and side hammer muzzleloaders? Again, not necessarily these items, but you may want to think about "what is everyone else doing and what can can I do that's different".
Just remember, a guy in West/Central Michigan can get to a Gander Mountain, a Dicks, Bob's in Hastings, Al & Bob's in GR or Jays all in about 90 minutes or less. What can you offer that they can't?
As for my old store, we were next to a major trout/salmon/steelhead river with a flies only section and in flies in stock in the multiple $10,000's, depending on the season. We offered local fly patterns, in many variations and with strong salmon/steelhead hooks, that you can't really find anywhere else, except for other small local fly shops.
And we were a Sage, St. Croix, Scott, Loomis, Ross Reel and Simms dealer. And we had the stuff "in stock" when guys came in. So we offered items you can't usually get your hands on, in person. More importantly, it was the proximity to the river that was the key.
If we moved the store 5 miles away from the river, I doubt we'd have survived, even with the same products for sale.
Location, location, location is far more than an old joke. Location is everything.
QuoteOriginally posted by Mojostick:
Just remember, a guy in West/Central Michigan can get to a Gander Mountain, a Dicks, Bob's in Hastings, Al & Bob's in GR or Jays all in about 90 minutes or less. What can you offer that they can't?
And just remember come May of 2013 you will have a Cabelas in Grandville which is only 30 minuet drive from the lakeshore.
Yeah, no kidding. That new Cabelas will suck up all the new oxygen and then some.
If anything, a nice trad/higher end fly shop about one mile away from the Cabelas could really work, being a pilot fish off of Cabelas traffic. But then rent would be high and you'd need big money to start up big.
Man, I love the idea of a good traditional archery shop in the area.
I am still shooting the same set of hunting arrows and judos that I bought from Vic's Archery when they were in Grandville. They are a little tattered though, can you be open by August?
May be that is the problem. A guy like me can nurse a set of broadhead arrows for a decade or two. And I like the idea of shooting a sluggish $14 board bow that I made more than a $600 custom bow. One idea for add-on business would be offering bow making supplies and classes.
I have to travel 35 minutes to the state game area just to shoot my bow, so a good 3d range would be worth driving to and paying for, also.
If there was a shop close by with glue on field tips and broadheads, feathers and the fixn's for a guillie suit in stock, I'd be there on the next pay day.
This is great. I appreciate everyone's honesty. I knew this would be a great place to ask this tough question.
I think you are all correct regarding big box stores, internet. That is pretty obvious.
I think BDO has the right idea and is a great store. Good location, great service, and quality products.
Purchasing on the internet is convenient, but I think trad shooters want something more. Something tangible. BUT, in this day and age it might not be possible to support a brick and mortar store for trad shooters. Unfortunate. But true.
I applaud BDO and the others for keeping it together and offering us a place to go and actually touch and see the item in person.
Unfortunately, you can't avoid the big box infiltration. They are convenient and do offer rock bottom prices. That will be hard to compete against.
We will see.I am going to continue to stew upon the idea. If anything, I am happy to meet all of you and appreciate the insightful advice. I hope to see you a a shoot sometime!
Mike
There is also Connies'Custom Arrows in Jenison Mi. Google search for the location and ph#. Great gal to do business with
You know, it's kind of funny that the very thing that makes America great, makes it difficult for the little guy to survive. I spent at least 20 years in Germany (and loved it). All the towns were full of "mom & pop" shops. Germany forbid any store from staying open later than 6:00 PM (or maybe it was 6:30?)and they could only be open past noon on Saturday once /month. Mr little guy couldn't afford to hire multiple shifts of employees at German wages/benefits and could not compete with a big box store if they needed a second shift.
That, of course has changed and its getting harder to find small shops over there now. Progress has its costs.
I do try to favor local merchants for the same reason I don't like to use the self checkout at the grocery stores. That's one less employee with a job, and if the big box stores do their marketing research right (and they usually do) we get very little selection. They stock what sells big. Forget the "nice to have" items that you find only at a small, specialty store.
It's great that there are still entrepreneurs who are willing to risk it all to make a modest living. It takes more guts than I have, but I applaud all who do their homework and then still decide to give it a go and actually succeed.
The catch 22 is, while you may not use "self checkout" because you think you're saving a low skill/low pay job, some other company and workers designed and installed the self checkout lanes and probably have to service them quite frequently.
The reality is, the world economy drastically changed starting in the 19th century with the idustrial revolution, then with all the changes in the early 20th century from available phones, electric lights, auto's, manned flight, etc, to the post WWII boom when the US was the only super power not in smoking ruins.
Everything changes. Now with the internet, social media, smart phones, etc, the small businessman has to constantly update and adapt to stay out infront of the hounds that are always just behind him.
The old model of "good customer service" isn't enough. Now you have to think about how you're going to break thru all the noise. How will you use social media? What organizations will you be active with? QDMA? TU? DU? All of them? None of them? What outdoor writers or outdoor TV people can you contact to use your store as a base for a story or show?
The good news for the prehistoric types is that there are enough old fossils like me - retired electronic engineers who designed systems for Motorola who like a personal touch instead of a keypad stroke.
Yeah, I know. I'm saying that in cyberspace using a keyboard. Doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer to sit down with you over a beer and talk about the same thing :)
Look into selling some wildlife art as well if your in such an outdoors mecca. There are many non hunters and hunters alike who would buy fine prints and sculpture that could add a considerable amount of draw to your shop as well as increasing your income.
I gotta say the best idea I have heard to survive is open up within spitting distance of the new cabela's and sell everything they don't. Look into the shop/land now before the prices get too high.
Tree Rat,
While I suggested it, I was thinking along the line of already established stores perhaps moving that way.
The problem is, that horse has left the barn over there as far as prices being "too high".
At this point, a well funded and very well run shop could do something, but a mom and pop startup is swimming in very deep shark infested water over there.
Unless one has worked in a retail sporting goods store for a while, and knows the ropes, they're looking for trouble.
Think of it like opening a restuarant. If you've never cooked in a restaurant, never waited tables, never bartended, never did the weekly ordering for all the food, never scheduled staff to where you aren't overstaffed or understaffed, never established a "brand", never decorated a restuarant, etc and then you decide to open a restaurant, you'll likely find a closed up restaurant within a year.
I realize many have the dream of doing something in the hunting and fishing industry, be it retail or guiding or being a sales rep for a company. What I'm saying is that it isn't anything like what most think it will be.
In my case, we had out best sales during salmon and steelhead season. And that's all great. But if you love to steelhead or salmon fish, realize that if you want to do well in the fly fishing business near a migratory fish river, you'll be in the store during the steelhead and salmon runs while everyone else is out fishing. That's when you make your money. The same if you want to be a full time guide. If you aren't guiding at least 6 days a week during the busy periods, you'll never make enough to survive the slow times. And then, if you do get a day off, you'll find that you won't be fishing either because you'll be cleaning your boat, shopping for lunches, getting your gear straightened out, doing piled up laundry, getting some sleep, etc, etc.
Like I said before, I don't want to pour cold water over a dream, but I do want to make sure people know exactly what they're getting into before they risk and more often than not lose money on that risk. For example, I've seen probably hundreds of guys attempt to break into being a fly fishing guide. The reality is, very very few can make it a career and most drop out after 3-5 years with nothing to show for it but a boat payment.
I know all of the headaches you speak of. Personal experience, and friends in many different business'
Ttt?
What about not going into it full time and only part time? I know several guys that are able to survive by running a part time business out of their homes in the evening. May not be what you want but it is a heck of a lot easier to stay in business. Also I believe Primitive Archer had a article years ago about running a small business out of your house...
Great advice. Start small and develop a foundation for a good business. Common sense. Thanks!
I am definitely not looking to get rich. I do have capital to invest, and would like to put it toward something good, an honest that I can feel a peace about at the end of the day, ya know?
As always I appreciate your knowledge!
If you are looking to get into a business , although it would include other styles of archery, but you might consider building a reputation on arrow building. Especially a business to recondition arrows. A lot of the big box stores do not want any part of that because of osha and all the things that go with fumes, cutting, etc of arrow materials. I retired from a store that would not allow us to re condition arrows. So one of the employees started a business just handing out cards when people would ask, and he was able to quit his job there and do it at home part time, and make the same money doing so. You would have an investment in paint, wraps, vanes, feathers, glue, etc. but could cover a larger area of peoples wants for a lot less cash than a full blow store. And build up and inventory along the way, always adding something to your line.
On another note, I just heard the other day, that there is a guy in NJ I believe it was, who is getting out of the bamboo bow backing business because of his age. As of last week, no one had contacted him about getting info to take over his business. Lot's of bamboo backed bows being made today.
QuoteOriginally posted by BassBow:
Great advice. Start small and develop a foundation for a good business. Common sense. Thanks!
I am definitely not looking to get rich. I do have capital to invest, and would like to put it toward something good, an honest that I can feel a peace about at the end of the day, ya know?
As always I appreciate your knowledge!
Hey don't forget either small or part time doesn't mean small money either. Buddy of mine does skull mounts and he brings in 5-6K extra a year doing it and charges lee than 100 for a mount. 6 grand ain't nothing to sneeze at if your a poor country boy like me :)