Hey y'all.
So I see these wonderful threads about stumpshooting and beautiful pics of WMAs. I shoot at leaves and dandelions in the back yard but wanted to get out and do some hiking/ roving, and I have alot of area around that is state land so I called the CO to ask about roving on it and I was told that in no way at all on any Illinois state land or any Federal land in Illinois could you stumpshoot unless it is a hunting season and you posses a valid hunting license. If you are caught doing so it is a poaching ticket.
I fully understand this , albeit dissappointed, due to their jobs of wildlife conservation, which is why I called to check. So just a heads up to anyone looking to rove on State land, first check your states regulations.
Yep, the soviet state of Illinois is the only place I know of that does this.
It's idiotic.
wow thats a crazy law! never heard of such. how can it be poaching if your using a blunt or judo tip and shooting grass?? i dont konw just seems excessive to me.
So, shooting a pine cone is poaching? That's one I'd like to see challenged. Ridiculous.
I didn't know there was a stump season requiring a stump license
That is just dumb!!! :readit: :knothead: Welcome to BIG Goverment and less freedom, They are just some things these days that I don't understand :dunno: :dunno:
I won't go on public land and stumpshoot unless there's a season in.
Not worth the risk. Especially on Federal Lands.
So what is the fine for poaching a leaf in your state?
Officially it's the same here in PA. It's simply a law enforcement issue. The good thing is that coyotes are in year round and also on Sundays here. So, as long as you have your hunting license, you're good to go.
Is your frog season in and is a bow legal?
Get a small game licence. There is almost always something in season or with no closed season. Woodchucks maybe?
I stump shoot in the local one here (making sure something's in season and with a license). Of course it's usually along the river and There's no season on bow fishing!
In NC you can't hunt coyote or hog on gameland unless another season is in....that means March thru Sept there is nothing to hunt, so no stumping.
Can't shoot on PA public land either
A CO ran into Laura and I a number of years ago here in NH. We were stump shooting....only had judos. Since there are some species that have no closed season, like coyotes, wood chucks, etc. he told Laura she would have to have a hunting license to be in the woods with a bow. If you think about it it does make some sense.
I don't think that is a unique law. If there is not a season in effect then you can not have a firearm or bow on WMAs down here either.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bill Carlsen:
A CO ran into Laura and I a number of years ago here in NH. We were stump shooting....only had judos. Since there are some species that have no closed season, like coyotes, wood chucks, etc. he told Laura she would have to have a hunting license to be in the woods with a bow. If you think about it it does make some sense.
i disagree. makes no sense. your not hunting, or poaching. dont know how a hunting license would make stump shooting any different. a poacher is going to do whatever it is he is going to do regardless of the law, only one getting the shaft here is the honest guy.
Wouldnt it be conidered target practice .. Which you can do in a national forest or on BLM land in most areas
So you can not shoot a slingshot, a bb gun, or throw a stick or rock on public ground? Even your scenario Bill C.- I can not even see how carrying broadheads would be wrong. So what? If you are poaching that is one thing- just shooting a gun or bow is another.
I would like to see that before a judge.
A bow is to much work for a poacher anyway, only time they get far enough away from the truck to get checked out by a CO is maybe to cut off a set of horns!
The state has plenty of things to worry about! But a miniscule amount of bow shooting stump killers isn't one.
Here in Missouri the state lands I stump on carry the "no target shooting" in the rules. Kind of a gray area...I always just have a $10 small game permit with me. There seems to be something in season all the time. Heck I could always just be hunting wild hogs...supposed to shoot them on sight here.
Small game tag will get you right.
Eric
It does make sense. Remember, the laws are a result of the transgressors around and among us. The law knows that poachers just have to say they're out stump shooting... so they force us all to be legal hunters if we have a weapon in hand. I don't like it either, but our society is full of people who break laws without giving a hoot. It just took a few terrorists with box cutters, and now millions of dollars went into play to keep EVERYONE from carrying potential weapons on planes. Made it harder and more expensive for all of us.
Fortunately coyotes are just about always in season here, and I can stump shoot on a friend's private land.
Up here in NY, there are some animals that don't have a closed season (red squirrel, woodchuck, porcupine, etc.). If I were questioned while stumping I could say I was hunting them, which I would if the opportunity presents itself. I always have my small game license with me, too.
KSdan, don't take it before a judge. I am a probation officer, and I see a lot of hunting/poaching related cases come to court. Trust me, if a DNR ranger says he caught you hunting or handling a weapon illegally, the odds of you winning the case are very, very slim, which means you could lose your hunting privileges for a year or more.
One more reason to be gald I have my own place to shoot/hunt on.
Here in WA any game license lets you shoot coyote year round.
If one goes target shooting on public land out here with any kind of a gun, you will get a ticket. However, the local game wardens approve of taking warm up shots with a bow and arrow during deer season, one even told me that the grass bails make good targets.
Sure glad I live in Wyoming!
Illinois is also the ONLY state in the UNITED States of America that does not have a concealed carry license. It's a little crazy here but oh well. I'll find a way to get some woodland stump shooting in. Most of our hunting areas close to me are by special permit only and no shooting of coyotes unless deer hunting. Go figure. I've lived in this area for 30 years and I still drive 3 hrs to my hunting spot.
If someone was going to poach why would they do it on state land? Isn't that what private land (trespassing) is for?
It's an absurd rule/law that was probably written by whomever came up with the Obamacare bill.
tarponut, a whole lot of poaching is done on public land, both state and Federal. Keep in mind that many of these game thieves are not particularly bright.
However, they do cause some restrictions that seem absurd to many of us.Some of these restrictions, even though well-intentioned, don't always make good sense.
QuoteOriginally posted by jsweka:
Officially it's the same here in PA. It's simply a law enforcement issue. The good thing is that coyotes are in year round and also on Sundays here. So, as long as you have your hunting license, you're good to go.
Right on! Just had a buddy who has coyote problems in the PA suburbs. Maybe I need to do a little stumping in the woods behind his house :goldtooth:
There should be year round season on coyotes and chucks, get a licencse, and that should be that.
California is the same way, but i always have a hunting lic and jack rabbit season is all year long. Its not my fault if i miss a lot :saywhat:
I think Mi is the same, BUT..get a small game license and tell them your hunting possum or something that has a year 'round season...they realy cant say much about that..its leagal.
Eric
Can't stumpshoot in New Jersey either. Need a hunting license and tell them your chasing woodchucks... :D
A few years back I was roving around Jersey doing some stumpin when my hunting buddy Bamboo caught me crossing the road....a few minutes after a Warden drove by. He then informed me about the Jersey law.
Close call.... :scared:
Glad I live in a state where it is legal to chase hogs year round. Used the same excuse as Joe when I lived in NJ. It is unfortunate that we have to go to such lengths, but I agree with some of the others. It is to prevent people from sneaking a broadhead along to poach. Same reason as some states with hog problems(OK)won't let you hunt hogs at night with artificial light unless it on your own land with a special permit.
VA is the same. No possession even for bows unless a season is open to a game animal. Plus, no hunting on Sundays except for shooting preserves and coon hunters until 0200 Sunday mornings......go figure!
Ken
I Just show them my concealed bow permit..
pretty lame
The funny part about stumping in NJ is you have to have broadheads on some of your arrows. The law reads you can only hunt chucks with broadheads.
as others stated, in PA you are not allowed to "target shoot" on state lands...but in talking to a game officer....groundhogs are in season all year...so I just have my license, my orange hat, and stump shoot on game lands.....can't help it if I miss groundhogs and keep hitting stumps and other things........completely legal.....
Wolves and yotes year round in Ontario, black birds/pigeons in Quebec...Small game licence right there
F-Manny
The no target shooting on State lands comes from people going out skeet shooting or shooting bottles/cans and leaving a mess. Getting ticketed for stump shooting is often the call of the Enforcement Officer. Most will tell you that you need a license and let you off with a warning. There is always the one who will compare the signature on you hunting license with that on your drivers license and write you up because they're different. 2 years ago I watched a EO that I knew write a guy a $65 ticket because he had 1 rusty lead shot shell (doubtful it would have cambered) in the bottom of a 5 gallon bucket while dove hunting on State land where only steel shot is allowed. There are jerks everywhere, in all walks of life!!!
Boy, I'm scratching my head over some of these laws. I never would have considered there would be a problem let alone laws making stumping illegal! :dunno:
QuoteOriginally posted by Frenchymanny:
Wolves and yotes year round in Ontario, black birds/pigeons in Quebec...Small game licence right there
F-Manny
Only in some WMU's of Ontario.
In others, from September 15 of one year to March 15 of the next year.
Also, if you claim to be hunting them, you need a wolf/coyote seal in most areas.
Best to go with a amall game (required anyway) and tell them you are shooting nuisance birds.
Hey, after Indiana passed its Anal Smoking Laws, NOTHING Surprises me anymore. :rolleyes: :readit:
Now, if you are on Private Land, with Permission to Target Shoot, how can they Ding You for that??
When I Stump Shoot, I dont carry B.H.'s, cant see the point in it myself, I dont need a Razor Sharp Head to Croak a Stump.
More of Our Tax Dollars at Work I s'pose. :laughing:
These laws that are written to pin down poachers are terrible examples of LE trying to make their jobs easier. Don't like em and never will.
Stumps and dirt clods don't need protection. To assume that stump shooters will opportunistically break the law and poach is wrong. To burden all our freedoms because of a few bad apples is equally wrong.
QuoteOriginally posted by Brianlocal3:
I was told that in no way at all on any Illinois state land or any Federal land in Illinois could you stumpshoot unless it is a hunting season and you posses a valid hunting license. If you are caught doing so it is a poaching ticket.
I would dig a little deeper than a phone call. I have a valid hunting license all year long and coyotes are always in season where I live.
There is typically always something legal to chase year around in every state.
Illinois has strange laws, on most of the public areas seasons are different than the private ground. As example coyote is not year round, squirrel starts over a month later ( and ends 2 months earlier) etc. In fact you can't even small game hunt state land withh a .22 rifle. Bows or shotgun with bird shot only!
thats why they closed groundhog and coyote season before and through turkey season, TOO STOP TURKEY POACHING. so nobody has any reason at all to be in the woods with any kind of weapon, that is the only time there is nothing in season. ....BUT...chapter 7, 3 csr 10-7.405 general provisions, hunting;seasons, methods,limits....(2) there shall be no closed season or limits on house sparrows or european starlings.....just sayin.
QuoteOriginally posted by arrow30:
...(2) there shall be no closed season or limits on house sparrows or european starlings.....just sayin.
Exactly as I stated in my post. LOL
Just be sure to have a small game licence.
In effect, in virtually all locations/jurisdictions, having a firearm or implement (bow) capable of taking game, in an area frequented by game, is de facto proof of hunting.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bowwild:
These laws that are written to pin down poachers are terrible examples of LE trying to make their jobs easier. Don't like em and never will.
Stumps and dirt clods don't need protection. To assume that stump shooters will opportunistically break the law and poach is wrong. To burden all our freedoms because of a few bad apples is equally wrong.
I can understand the frustration with these sorts of laws when your intent for being in the woods is completely ethical and in no way will harm any game or non-game species. However, I highly doubt that legistators even gave a thought to stump shooting when making such laws. Let's face it, there are very few archers (including compound shooters) who stump shoot and infringement on our desire to put arrows in stumps and dirt clods is secondary to the need to curtail opportunities for poachers.
I'm OK with such laws because of their intended purpose and will simply carry a valid hunting license with me when I want to stump shoot.
California requires a license to be armed on Public Land. We need fishing licenses too even without hooks, all makes sense to me.
In Mississippi target shooting on public land (federal or state) is prohibited. Being in posession of a firearm/bow during a closed season is illegal too.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bjorn:
California requires a license to be armed on Public Land. We need fishing licenses too even without hooks, all makes sense to me.
Bjorn,
Where does it say that in the regs? Not arguing as it seems new legislation to protect us from ourselves gets passed every day in CA without public input, just curious where that info can be found.
Thanks,
Mike
QuoteOriginally posted by adeeden:
Illinois has strange laws, on most of the public areas seasons are different than the private ground. As example coyote is not year round, squirrel starts over a month later ( and ends 2 months earlier) etc. In fact you can't even small game hunt state land withh a .22 rifle. Bows or shotgun with bird shot only!
Adeeden is very correct here. Illinois public land hunting is an art of legal jargon. You almost need to have a Law degree to understand it. Where I am at in Collinsville all of the close hunting spot are not open to public hunting without some form of crazy red tape. We do have Choteou island but even that gets tricky
thats the problem with game n fish though, here in Alabama you are guilty til proven innocent when it comes to game violations. So therefore, if you have a weapon you are hunting, irregardless of any evidence they have of what you are actually doing. You havent shot an animal yet but you are still breaking the law... amazing.
ever thought of the logic behind this?... if you have a car you are automatically a speeder, so if you have your bow, you are automatically a poacher.
Gee whiz
Dave
QuoteOriginally posted by Webster2:
QuoteOriginally posted by Frenchymanny:
Wolves and yotes year round in Ontario, black birds/pigeons in Quebec...Small game licence right there
F-Manny
Only in some WMU's of Ontario.
In others, from September 15 of one year to March 15 of the next year.
Also, if you claim to be hunting them, you need a wolf/coyote seal in most areas.
Best to go with a amall game (required anyway) and tell them you are shooting nuisance birds. [/b]
In the WMU I have my lease, all year and no wolf seal required.
F-Manny
2nd Amendment allows us to carry a weapon year around in Oregon.
Stumpbuster wrote:
Bjorn,
Where does it say that in the regs? Not arguing as it seems new legislation to protect us from ourselves gets passed every day in CA without public input, just curious where that info can be found.
Thanks,
Mike
Hi Mike in the frequently asked question re: who needs a hunting license. Answer 1 says it for me..........I guess it could be interpreted otherwise; but if you came across me in the woods with a bow and no license would you ignore me given your profession?
A lot of banter about this, but I have no argument against these laws. I'd much rather that there be a strong stance against poaching than no-holds-barred stumpshooting. There would be a ton of people out killing critters out of season, and using the "I wuz jus' stumpshootin' " defense. Law enforcement would have to back way off, because they would have no teeth against that type of argument. I am a Certified Fraud Examiner, I work for local government, it is my job to engineer and inspect the procedures that govern a lot of public and private activities, and I see first-hand how these laws work, from beginning to end.
Most folks probably don't realize that between 5-10% of our GDP is lost to fraud every year. There are a LOT of crooked people out there, and the percentage of them is growing...
Banter? I see it differently. How many laws does it take to straighten out "crooked people"? Not sure if you stack laws up many inches deep...and that seems to be what's taking place... that a crook is going to pay attention to them. So really the ones affected are folks who are law abiding...freedom lost!
A poacher is someone who takes game out of season...not someone with a bow in his/her hand stumpshooting...LE/F&G know how to investigate. I'd imangine that they do get hard evidence in these cases and then lay the out the approprate charge...not assume guilt without such evidence.
While we are all taught innocent until proven guilty, if you're in the woods, out of season, with a hunting weapon-gun or bow-you'll have to prove you weren't hunting. To me the big question is-which is better/easier/cheaper, a hunting license or a lawyer, to prove that you were not hunting but only stump shooting!!!
So we (the majority law abiding) have to give up things we like doing because of a few who break the rules/laws.
Ya that sounds fair just keep giving up our freedom and we can be just like any 3 World country.
Hence my "From: Round Lake, Illinoising" on my signature at the bottom... I can't wait to move someday.
-Jeremy :coffee:
Central illinois here. yes, I have had many conversations with CPO's about this. Technically it is illegal. usually out there hunting anyway and no issue. They personally think it is good to do it, and using the land year round is what it's for and does have tendancy to help them keep track of what is going on out there. But of course offically they cannt say its okay. First thing I always try and do in a new area is talk with the CPO's they have a tough job so they know me and we have a repoir. One that I was good friends with had to give me a ticket once because I was in a tree with a screw in step someone else left. I shugged and said, "if I was speeding adn you was an officer you would give me a ticket, you have a job to do, when you get off lets go shoot at the range."
Hey, I'm with the rest of you... I want freedom, and these laws frustrate me, too. But in order to mitigate the damages done by members of society that choose not to control themselves, laws have to be made and enforced. You want zero control by law enforcement? Go to other countries where people have nearly exterminated all the game. I rarely see ANY game when driving through Mexico; in many places there, game is largely non-existent.
The laws, like them or not, are supposed to be good for society as a whole (though often they are not). If men were to hold to a common standard of right and wrong of their own heart and conscience, we would not need such laws. Our problem is that these days, "... every man doeth that which is right in his own eyes..." (from the book of Judges, in the Bible), and that ultimately ends in anarchy and a "he who is strongest wins" society.
So, back to the topic at hand...
I do not argue with these types of decrees, as they help to minimize the undesirable activity by those who would misuse their freedoms. Sadly, our freedom erodes a little each day.
I look at it a bit different, if all the law abiding folks give up the woods out of season it leaves the rule breakers free range of most of the lands... Game n fish should argue to support using the woods year round by the majority of us so we can report misuse and they can more easily catch the bad guys. But like I said earlier instead they would treat me as a criminal when I am out practicing to make more ethical kills on a deer rather than make an extra patrol here or there. I mean if they see a vehicle on a piece of property, why dont they just wait on the person to walk out and see if they are in possession of an animal out of season? That'd be more just than ticketing someone for shooting a pine cone or because they're there.
Here's my take as an LEO in CA...
Unless I WITNESS you or have a witness who can confirm you were taking or attempting to take a mammal, fish, bird, reptile, or amphibian I have no case. Yes, sometimes it's frustrating to let badguys walk when you KNOW they were up to something, but the VAST MAJORITY of sportsmen/women are GOOD responsible folks enjoying the resources that belong to us all. I know every agency has an officer who would "articulate" their observations in a manner to score a "Stat", but I'm proud to say that the majority of us out there feel pretty much the same way I do.
To surrender our liberties to "Feel" better is a step closer to a dictatorial society. The righteous many should not be controlled by legistlation because of the actions of an evil minority of wrongdoers.
I don't want this to turn political, but I was asked what I would do if I found an archer stump shooting in the forests and fields we enjoy and are fortunate to share...
I would quietly observe the activity undetected for a while (if possible) to see if there were ANY indications the archer was attempting to take game or fish. If no indication was observed that would lead me to believe nefarious activity was at hand, I would then contact the archer in a friendly manner (Obviously utilizing proven officer safety tactics) and engage them in conversation to see if they gave/admitted any reason to believe they were doing anything but recreating without any risk of harm to the native fauna. I'd confirm their explanation by checking their equipment and once satisfied the archer was just practicing/stumping, I would wish them a fine day with accurate shooting and to return home safe with few lost/broken arrows.
When the story, equipment and my (or any witnesses) observations don't match up or freshly taken game is found, that's when I proceed with other options.
Is it tough putting all these pieces together? ABSOLUTELY, but we are able to do it with enough frequency that law enforcement agencies are a deterrent to those who walk the line, but who are sometimes tempted by opportunity. The probability of getting caught and never knowing "WHERE" we may be is what keeps honest people on the right path. The ones who disregard the rules written by and adopted by "Sportsmen/women" will greedily "TAKE" game/property whether or not more "emotion based" or "Feel Good" legislation is passed.
SO... Is it easier to stump shoot with a hunting license? Absolutely, but it's not mandatory. If you do buy a hunting license (even if you are a non-hunter) your money at least supports habitat managment and the wildlife we all enjoy seeing.
We have enough laws (too many in this state), we just need more witnesses willing to come forward with quality detailed information (seems EVERYONE has a cell phone with a camera in it these days....and they are a HUGE help). We'll take it from there.
If everyone followed the Sportman's Ethical Code, I'd be happy to find another way to make money. Until that time, I am honored to act as a guardian to protect my fellow citizens, our wild places and it's inhabitants. I also consider most sportmen/women some of the most patriotic and down to earth people living in this country today and am happy to call many of those I have crossed paths with....Friends.
All the Best,
Mike
doubletap
Here's irony for you: in FL you can be prosecuted for possessing a weapon on public land if there is not game in season, but you can drive a tractor trailer towing 6k gallons of fuel while texting all day long, seven days a week and no one can do a thing.
I fail to see how possessing a weapon is equal to poaching even if the law sees it that way. The logic of that just does not compute.
Nice reply Mike. It is tough in a love/hate job. Been there and still doing it.
Bow in hand with arrows on Game Lands with no open season in most states is prima facie evidence of hunting, unfortunately.
Testimony at trial would have to rebutt the charges, then a judge would have to decide (or jusry in the extreme).
Just like speed limits, most everyone will comply. Speed limits are for those that ignore the law.
Much of deciding to charge is in the discretion of the officer. Some use discretion. Some don't.
To me it's not worth it nor is it worth losing sleep over. I'll go somewhere else and shoot on private land.
Mike and Nathan,
Excellent explanation of how LEO's around the country try to do their jobs. I worked with Fish & Wildlife LEO's in Delaware for 19 years and knew most of them personally-great bunch of guys. The job you guys do is a thankless job (you're picking on someone if you ticket them and not doing your job if you don't) and you are to be commended for a tough job well done. Thank you both for the job you do!!!
Stumpbuster thanks for the clarification.
Do you have a season for coyote's or is it open all year?
Bjorn,
No worries. I just thougt you may have seen some recent legislation that I was not aware of yet. Sportsmen/women recently dodged a bullet last week with the hound hunting ban but it may come up for another vote again this week. Gun owners are ALWAYS under attack and more anti-gun legislation is is schedlued for vote tomorrow.
An all out ban on stump shooting would not surprise me.
Escaping to Free America looks better and better every day.
Good Shooting and I hope to see you in the field!
Mike
eta: Kentucky, if that question was for me... Coyotes are open year round, just need a hunting license.
Have a Great and Safe 4th all!
Just sad that the lawful people lose once again while the unlawful will continue to be that way.
I'll have my license on me and continue to hunt sparrows and stumps.
Sad. People will continue to poach without any regard whatsoever to this type of law. But honest sportsmen will more and more shy away from the woods that they take care of and respect. Not all, but some will. Thats the sad part.
Innocent till proven guilty.....hmmm. Doesnt seem to work that way much anymore.
My question was for Brian from Illinois who began the thread. Im not sure if they have a open season year round like most all states. If so why not simply go coyote hunting and stump? Seems to easy of a solution though so I assume they don't have a year long yote season.
TJ, I was curious so I looked up the Illinois regs. Year round 'furbearer' season for coyotes and skunks. I guess I would get a license and be a skunk hunter while roving the woods, bow in hand.
QuoteOriginally posted by centaur:
TJ, I was curious so I looked up the Illinois regs. Year round 'furbearer' season for coyotes and skunks. I guess I would get a license and be a skunk hunter while roving the woods, bow in hand.
X2! I need a skunk hat....
Now we're talking Pat.
Brian, buy your hunting license and go ahead and hunt If you run into the CO you are yote hunting. I would have a rabbit squealer in your pack.
I mostly stump on private land so I won't be bothered.
Wrong on Illinois for coyotes year round guys! Yes it's open on private ground year round but state land has a season!
Your groundhog season in open. Get a small game tag and go stump shoot.
Is it is, or is it ain't? :dunno:
Here is the link to what I saw:
http://www.dnr.illinois.gov/calendar/Pages/CoyoteandStripedSkunkSeason.aspx
Still glad to be living in Wyoming, where we can and do stump shoot all the time.
Centaur go to th IL dnr website click on the public hunting areas the rules are different for them then the private lands. They have listed what can be hunted and when.
As an example. As an example
http://dnr.state.il.us/lands/landmgt/hunter_fact_sheet/r3hfs/cll.htm
Arkansas is the same way. Has to be a hunting season.
As was stated yes we have year round coyotes but the state lands are different as was just stated for me. The lands close to me are No Hunting unless you have a special draw permit and then it's the 7 days they choose for you. Alot of land by me , just not very user friendly. Now If you wanna hike and shoot with a camera( i do a lot of that too) they are amazing. I have noticed this mostly in the high human population areas.
And I do want to state I understand the reasoning fr the laws, as I too was an LEO for 7 years. I started the thread mostly as a public service announcement because I saw some stumpshooting posts taking place in WMAs and here in Illinois we have some different rules than I was assuming other states.
Thank you to everyone who has posted and I feel this has been a very good discussion as I know I have learned a lot from all of you regarding other states DNR programs
In MI starlings, porcupines, red squirrels, are all open year round. I believe woodchucks are as well.