Question?
I am shooting a 51# recurve with approx. a 530 grain arrow. I have never chronographed my arrows so I am not sure about the speed. I understand that tuning and shot placement is key but what do you guys think about this setup for elk? Thanks in advance!!!
Let's put it this way....I'm heading out to Colorado in a month with a 50# @ 28" and a 520 grain arrow in pursuit of the Wapiti. So if your set-up ain't good enough, then we are BOTH in trouble. Put that razorsharp broadhead in the boiler room on a realistic shot (20 yards or less) and you will be fine! Best of luck to you.
Ditto almost exactly what Full Quiver II said, except I will be shooting 51#@28".
I will let you know....hopefully.
Jake
when I was teaching a lot of bowhunter education courses, somewhere along the line an article was brought in about a young lady who took and elk with a 35# bow. Still as much poundage as you can handle would be advisable. Remember a SHARP broadhead is what does the work not a bigger calibre like a gun. Still you need suffficient penetration to allow the broadhead to do that work especially if it encounters bone.
Amigos -- your bow poundagas are fine, but your arrows are light. You have at very best a 50-50 chance of hitting heavy rib bone on elk if they are standing dead broadside. Turn 'em at an angle and the ribs close up completely. Worse, the most lethal shot placement, low and just behind a front leg, puts us at risk of hitting scapula, which is like an iron plate on elk. So, you can take the loser's gamble of not hitting heavy bone, or you can follow Dr. Ashby's carefully researched and unimpeachable advice to shoot a minimum of 650 grains total arrow weight for elk and other really big game. You'll also need a strong 2-blade broadhead, like the 160 Grizzly or STOS. With heavy arrows, lighter bows actually gain more arrow impact force benefit than do heavier bows. I'll be using a 55lb. boo-backed osage longbow shooting 700 grain maple arrows at barely 140 fps, with Tanto-pointed Grizzly 160s. These will make toast of elk ribs and should penetrate scapula sufficiently to get good lung punctuation (!). I have found that most folks, when they to to ask if so-and-so rig is enough for elk, don't really want advice for improvement; they want confirmation of choices already made. Like Ashby, my only motivation is to help folks make fast, humane kills on elk. I've hunted elk with trad bows for 25 years and killed 20 or so ... and in the early days, shooting 500-550 arrows with 3-blade heads out of fast factory recurves, I lost several animals with lung hits but poor penetration due to striking a rib. And among those I did kill, I had to trail most for hours or even days. Since upping my arrow weight to 650 or more and switching to long, narrow, tough two-blades, I've not had a single elk make it out of sight before dropping, and 100 percent pass-throughs no matter how much bone encountered. I am not trying to start arguments about what is possible in rare lucky perfect situations, but trying to share what is proven to work even with less than perfect hits. It's a win-win deal and out to 20 yards you'll hardly notice any trajectory difference. All best to you all, dave
With good sharp 2 blade heads your set-up will be just fine.
I'm with you Dave, throw some weight tubes in those arrows or up the point weight, that will help those arrows bust through whatever it encounters. My buddy will also be using a 50#@28" bow, but has upped his arrow weight to 630 grain with 260 grains up front on his carbons. We never chronoed his bow for speed, but you should see his arrows rock the target! It should do the job on an elk. Good luck fellas.
brack
QuoteOriginally posted by brackshooter:
I'm with you Dave, throw some weight tubes in those arrows or up the point weight, that will help those arrows bust through whatever it encounters.
If his arows are tuned properly (as they should be), simply upping the point weight will make them fly less than true. And that's going to negate whatever penetration increase he may see by adding that weight.
No offense to anyone, but I think trad folks like to blame their arrow weight for poor performance just like compound shooters like to blame mechanical heads whever something goes wrong.
Case in point:
There was a recent article in TBM about a gentleman having penetration problems on a brown bear with 450-grain wood arrows shot out of a 65# recurve. Now, I don't claim to be a wood arrow expert. But after spining and weighing a few thousand of them over the years, I'm still trying to figure out how someone would go about making a wood arrow that light and still spined stiff enough to fly true out of a bow that heavy. I'd be half tempted to bet a week's pay that if he stripped the fletching off one of those arrows and shot it at 20 yards, it's veer at least 6 feet to the weak side of the target.
Ever wonder why so many folks complain about broadheads wind planing? One word: tuning.
QuoteEver wonder why so many folks complain about broadheads wind planing? One word: tuning.
Never has there been truer words spoken! CK
I wondered about that myself when I read the article Jason.
You make an excellent point Jason. Arrow flight in my mind is number one, and if that isn't there weight and broadhead type won't help enough to overcome it. That being said, there is nothing to say that you can't have good arrow flight with a heavy arrow. I just ordered some weight tubes and Grizzly broadheads last night and am going to see what I can do to improve my setup for elk this year.
I've been shooting Woodsmans with a total arrow weight of 530 grains out of 57# @ 29', and getting excellent flight. But I would like to see if I can keep the flight characteristics and bump the weight to 650+ and a two blade head. I have other shafts I can use as well if spine won't work, and I won't sacrifice good arrow flight, but I'm thinking I can improve my setup.
shot in the right place?- YES
shot in the wrong place?- NO
tune your equipment right, practice, take shots within your effective range only, on broadside looking the other way elk...and you will be eating well!
I think its interesting how often I hear the argument that if you insist on heavy arrows, you must not be a good shot, or your arrows fly like a corkscrew. Not so. I practice everyday for at least nine months out of the year, and feel confident to 25 yards. But I think that people underestimate the strength of a large bull elk, and how hard they can be to put down. Add to that thick brushy country, a tendency to live at the tops of the world, and the rush of having one scream in your face, and it CAN cause an arrow to occasionally go awry (BTW,I have never lost an elk I have shot at, knock on wood). My arrows are tuned and fly great with 275 grains up front, and I have no reservations about shooting them at any animal in my effective range. I just think that its best to listen to the experts on this (not me!). Ashbys reports seem to say it all. Heavy is the way to go as far as Im concerned.
Brack
I'm inclined to agree with Dave and Brackshooter. Heavy is good. Especially when tuned well for your bow. Not to mention the fact that in my experience, I have been shooting traditional since I was 10, heavier arrows are usually quieter leaving the bow and more stable in flight. Just my 2 cents.
-Hillbilly
I understand the heavy arrow advantage but I don't understand the Colorado Dept of Wildlife only requiring a 35# bow for big game.
Will a heavy (10 gr/lb) arrow be effective from a 35# bow for elk?
Brack -- I'm not too sure that is what people are saying...when it comes to heavy arrows or issues with penetraton, many will blame the weight, when in fact poor tuning is more likely the cause. Not really that people who shoot heavy arrows need to because they can't shoot or something silly like that.
I would add to Jason's bet that most penetration issues are related to arrows being poorly tuned.
I'm not an elk hunter, may get a chance next year...I'll likely shoot a heavier arrow because the animal requires it. What the weight will end up being I cannot say, but that arrow will be tuned perfectly at great distances, that I can say with absolute certainty (and I believe should come first).
My nickels worth.
Yeah, that one befuddles me abit as well, Lost Arra. Hmmmm...
What is considered a heavy arrow for a 45# bow? a 52# bow? a 35# bow? an 80# bow?
I thank everyone for there replies, I just came in from shooting my broadheads (125 grain snuffers) and I am displeased with the results. I am shooting a 51# @ 28" recurve LH, currently I am shooting a 29" CE heritage 150 with a 100 grain brass insert, 125 grain tip, 3 5" shield fletchings with wraps, I believe total weight to be around 530 grains. I just recieved my broadheads in the mail and they are planing!! I guess my arrows aren't tuned like I thought. My fieldpoints fly great but my broadheads kick way to the right out of my bow. and impacting the target nock right. I have already cut all of my arrows to 29", What do I do now? I already have 225 grains up front. If I can get these arrows tuned properly then I am going to order some weight tubes. What about paper tuning. I appreciate everyones help here. I just need a little help tuning these arrows. If I can't get them tuned then I am definately not taking my recurve elk hunting and will stick with my compound one more year.
Ryan;
You will likely need to make some adjustments & paper tuning is fairly fast & easy. Otherwise your set up is fine for elk.
Sharp broadheads, proper shot selection, shot placement, at the effective distances of traditional gear with wooden arrows over 500 grains, IMO, will do the job with a properly tuned set up.
We all develop our own beliefs over time & experience. Some people might use heavier arrows, but then figure they can bust through bone with 'em & might then take a questionable shot. Another wouldn't think of it.
I have never actually weighed my arrows. PO cedar, either 125 gr. or 150 gr. heads, feathers & a nock. Perhaps a little light for some people. I have always had confidence in 'em.
Good luck - Q.
BTW, NEVER shoot a broadhead without fletchings on!
Start here.
http://www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html
if your BH's are hitting right of your FP's your arrows are weak.
CB
QuoteOriginally posted by Whip:
That being said, there is nothing to say that you can't have good arrow flight with a heavy arrow.
You bet. Heck, I even bareshaft tune my bowfishing arrows, and those things weigh something like 1,500 grains. :eek:
Lost Arra -- neither do I! It's obscene and we are working on it. Looking over these threads I don't see any I flat-out disagree with. Often, we just choose to talk about different subsets of a situation. I didn't read the TBM article in question, but agree absolutely that trying to shoot one of the largest and most magnificent animals on this continent with a 450grain arrow is ... obscene. Why did TBM, my favorite mag in the world, publish such tripe? No matter whether it shoots like a dart or a corkscrew, you don't shoot toothpicks at mega-game. So far as arrow weight and accuracy -- there's no relationship whatsoever! It's tuning, period.
Brackshooter's reference to heavy arrows "rocking the target" speaks multitudes, esp. when your target it huge with heavy bones.
Ashby himself says that if you don't have flawless arrow flight (bow-arrow tuning) and super-sharp heads, nothing else much matters. But frankly, my slow old heavy woodies are far easier to tune than feathered toothpicks. A huge problem for many of us is that fast arrows "sizzling out of the bow" are sexy. Slow arrows lobbing out there are not. Maybe has something to do with patience, in our increasingly impatient world. Keep kicking it around, guys. I'm with ya. dave
Colorado has wimpy elk, Oregon DFW regs say we need at least 50# to kill are elk, if Im not mistaken. :) Also I bought some of those wieght tubes and they said they wouldnt effect my arrow spine. I think they did and they ruined my arrow flight. Have any of you had that problem with the tubes?
Jager-
I tried the tubes in my carbons as well, and wasnt a big fan either. Seem like a good way to increase weight if you can handle them. I prefer to step up in spine and add as much point weight as possible. Arrows fly great and dont have to worry about those stupid tubes flying out of the back of my arrow when I stump shoot!
BTW, well said Dave.
brack
Killed a few elk and deer with 10 grains per pound of bow weight. Made some bad shots and some good, most all went down pretty quick. I have lost some animals but as you hunt that will happen with bad weather, bad tracking and just bad luck.
This thread comes up a lot and I just wonder why folks want to keep on dropping arrow weight to hunt with. It is a proven fact and if you practice with it you will have the best chance at your goal of harvesting an animal cleanly. There are a lot of variables to consider, shot placement, animal size, kinetic energy, weather, tracking just to name a few for this discussion. But the one you can control is kinetic energy and this has a huge factor, so why muck around with it. Just a few thoughts, Bill
Ryan,
Hows it going?...Ken shoots 150's out of his recurve with the 50 gr brass inserts and the flight is something to behold...Prettiest arrow you ever saw....I think you may have to much up front....
Other than that,your bow is fine...I might reconsider the snuffers though...I still use them for blacktails,but not for elk...
Dave,
Agreed. I bought into heavier arrows a couple of years ago. Made steady progress toward a 600 gr. arrow to shoot out of my 51@28" recurve, and got those arrows tuned well. My arrows fly straighter than I can shoot it seems! I also went to a solid, two blade BH.
Also, I'm no expert by any means, but personally I could care less what a chrony tells me. I want excellent shot placement with a good heavy arrow and a solid, razor sharp broadhead.
I shoot 60# bows and my arrows are 800+ grains,Alaskan Forgewoods,out to 30 yards I notice no drop, past that there is some but I would not shoot at an animal past 30 yards anyway, but I do practice out to 40 regularly. Never been close to an elk, but every deer or pig I have shot has been a complete pass through and a short trail. Yes, I believe in heavy arrows. That Bison in my avatar,25 yard shot,I hit the elbow joint and still got the heart he was down in less than 20 yards, the Ace 200 gr head was still sharp when I got it out of him.
Danny