Need some help guys/gals.
I practice about 4 times a week (two growing boys and a career) in the yard and at the three-d range. The challenge I have is the inconsistancy in my shooting. One day I will litterly be slapping arrows together in the target and the next I will by punching holes in the fence. :eek: Now comming from shooting a compound I am used to a certain level of accuracy. MUCH HIGHER LEVEL of accuracy.
I got to tell you it does not do much for the confidence level.
SOOOOOO, out of respect for the game I hunt, I have to ask...WOULD YOU STILL TAKE A STICK BOW TO THE WOODS? Would you choose to be "lucky" or accurate?
Not wanting to debat ethics...take in to consideration that WE ALL WANT TO BE ETHICAL. What I am questioning is if I should take a stick to the woods to hunt if I know the inconsistancy exists.
The thing about shooting a compound is that you either shoot it with correct form or it doesn't work. And the let off lets you do that. Shooting a traditional bow requires more physical work, eye hand coordination and practice. Subtle changes in your form can make or break a practice session and you may not be aware of what's wrong. The first thought that crossed my mind when I read your post was..."He needs a coach". Short of that get the DVD collection "Masters of the Bare Bow" and see if you can learn what you need to work on.
Personally if your coming from the wheels I would shoot those two practice session for form work alone for the next month or so.With the wheels you have a longer holding ability at full draw, and you have peep and pin sights to help cover up form issues.
If you want to be accurate you have to work hard and long on the basic form of trad shooting. Then the accuracy will come.The more you try just for accuracy and not focus the form the more you short cut and compensate to try and be accurate. This will leave you very inconsistent.
Oh and Lucky is getting to hunt every chance you get!
When transitioning from compound it's hard to deal with the ease of results achieved with a compound and the work involved in making it happen with a stick bow.
That being said, I was able to make it by selling my compound and getting that crutch out of my head. After that I was able to get better every day and start taking animals with my stick bow.
Mike
Practice with six quarter-size dots at 10 yards. When you're consistent there back up about two yards. Repeat and back up. And not during the same session. Shoot at 10 yards for a long time...days or weeks while working on form.
I'm with you. Inconsistent is my name at trad. That's why most all of my game shots are at 12 yards or less, give or take a yard.
Form is easy to know, but hard to consistently repeat...for me anyway.
In my opinion, The compound is just a completely different experience. ( it hid my flaws with technology).
After shooting Trad, I realized just exactly what "form" means.
I would not hunt until i started shooting "tight groups" on the target. Indicates some consistencey.
(Good or bad, well thats a whole different issue)
And as Bill said above the"masters of the bare bow" Series (1-4)
Is one of my study guides. Just a small adjustment can have a big result.
Well this is how I look at it, if your not confident in what your shooting don't hunt with it I don't care if it is a bow, gun or gernade, you need to have confidence in your equipment.
Just a thought here, shooting a longbow or recurve does take practice and for some it takes more practice then it does for others. I would start by evaluating why you want to hunt with the stick and string. If this is something you really want to do and it is a burning desire then you will and should find the time to become proficent enough to hunt.
However if it is just a thing that you want to try but it is more important to you that you harvest an animal then the hunt itself that is a different priority and you would be doing yourself and the animal injustice by using equipment your not sold out to or confident with.
I am not saying this to be critical I am saying this from years of hunting and comming from where you are now. I went back and forth from compound to stickbow for 3 years before one day in my heart I determined I was stickbow hunting or not hunting at all. I sold my compound so I wasn't tempted to switch back and fourth and I went for it.
It also helped that I had a guy down the road willing to invest some time into me. Also some time down the road you need to get pass the fear of gimping your game. NO BODY wants to gimp a deer but if you go into the woods with that mind set chances are that is exactly what your going to do.
So going back to where I started, you must have confidence in your equipment, so if it takes you a couple years to get confident with your stick bow so be it, hunt with your compound and practice with your stickbow until your mentaly, physicaly and soely dedicated to hunt with your stickbow.
Hi,
To answer your question "luck or accurate"; accurate is the only way to go. I see you're from Fort Worth and I've heard there are some good trad shops in that area and I know there's some great shooters in your area, perhaps you need to check out the local bow shops and find some good shooting help.
The only way I ever got over the "hump" was to put the compound in the closet (it's been unshot for almost 3 years). I started off with a 60# longbow after all I was shooting a 70# compound, well that did not work out to well for me. I was way over bowed but I kept at it, when I got the 50# bow good things started happening for me. The 50# only worked out because I had my muscles tuned from the 60# bow.
Get a light bow, get help (coach, videos, books, www). You have to use good, repeatable form in order to get consistent with your traditional gear. Go to 3D shoots and hook up with some traditional shooters. I know 3D shooters that can shoot a 300 score on a 30 target coarse, great accuracy can be obtained with traditional gear.
Most of all stick with it the rewards are great. I can teach someone to shoot a compound within an hour. Learning traditional takes a lifetime of ups and downs, the good news is the downs progressively get very small. Good luck neighbor!!!
Some great advice on form. My initial thought was if you are slapping arrows on some sessions, then all over on others, part of it could be focus. If you are consistant enough on a regular basis to worry about damaging arrows, then your focus might be the issue. I know if I am thinking about work, or other commitments my practice sessions can be frustrating. Next time you are inconsistant evaluate where your head is at. Is it focused on the target and your form as you shoot, or somewhere else. If it s somewhere else you are just flinging arrows for the upper body exercise.
QuoteOriginally posted by wingnut:
....I was able to make it by selling my compound and getting that crutch out of my head. After that I was able to get better every day and start taking animals with my stick bow.
Mike
I have heard this a lot. This may be the route I take. The problem is I like all forms of archery. Anything that flings arrows...
QuoteOriginally posted by Anointed Archer:
...Also some time down the road you need to get pass the fear of gimping your game. NO BODY wants to gimp a deer but if you go into the woods with that mind set chances are that is exactly what your going to do....
A good buddy of mine who is switching with me stated almost the exact same thing. He said "you get so worried about missing, you talk yourself into it..."
QuoteOriginally posted by stick_string:
Need some help guys/gals.
I practice about 4 times a week (two growing boys and a career) in the yard and at the three-d range. The challenge I have is the inconsistancy in my shooting. One day I will litterly be slapping arrows together in the target and the next I will by punching holes in the fence. :eek: Now comming from shooting a compound I am used to a certain level of accuracy. MUCH HIGHER LEVEL of accuracy.
I got to tell you it does not do much for the confidence level.
SOOOOOO, out of respect for the game I hunt, I have to ask...WOULD YOU STILL TAKE A STICK BOW TO THE WOODS? Would you choose to be "lucky" or accurate?
Not wanting to debat ethics...take in to consideration that WE ALL WANT TO BE ETHICAL. What I am questioning is if I should take a stick to the woods to hunt if I know the inconsistancy exists.
Personally, I would continue with traditioanal and know my limitations, even if it is just 8 yards. Personally, when hunting whitetail, I am pretty confident that I would have one walk by that close at some point.
Can you hit what you're shooting at at 8-10 yards? If so, just limit your shots to that range. I'm not being facetious. Most folks wound critters because they take shots beyond their effective range, regardless of what they're shooting. Whenever they do that, they're counting on luck rather than skill to make the shot, which is at best a 50-50 proposition.
QuoteOriginally posted by Orion:
Can you hit what you're shooting at at 8-10 yards? If so, just limit your shots to that range. I'm not being facetious. Most folks wound critters because they take shots beyond their effective range, regardless of what they're shooting. Whenever they do that, they're counting on luck rather than skill to make the shot, which is at best a 50-50 proposition.
x 2
I find that when I start to get sloppy, it's time to practice with one arrow. I don't get so rushed to fling 'em, and makes me concentrate on the shot more.
I understand the fear of a poor hit,however you need to understand that sometimes it can't be helped.We all should hunt with in our limits,then we take shots that we are comfy with.I have had people ask why I pass on a ten yard shot at deer,but will take a 25-30 yard shot....I tell them the shot eather felt good or bad,no middle ground.If I can see my arrow striking true before I draw,I know the shot feels rite,if not then I don't take it.
Keep up the practice,then let your brain tell you when the shot will be good.We all have our good days and days it feels like we can't hit a house....let your body tell you if you hunt that day,or go stump shootin,eather way it will be fun.
Be your own honest critic about it and ask yourself " at what distance do I become inconsistent". If your pretty good at 10, 15 and 20 yards and get a little loose with your groups at 25 yards, then keep your hunting distance at no more than 20 yards. Truthfully, only you will know the truth about your accuracy. Just don't hunt past your confidence level. :)
The guys have some good advice. Sounds to me like focus might be part of it. Keep practicing bro, but I wouldn't stay away from hunting.
Ben,
You're still pretty much a kid, at least compared to me and a lot of the other guys here. Keep at it and you will be fine. I would also suggest Rick Welch's video "The Accuracy Factory". Better yet, go to a school/seminar put on by Rick or by Rod Jenkins, both of whom are fantastic teachers. You will learn more in a weekend than you will figure out in years of experimenting on your own.
Allan
I think you already know the answer to your question. You know you WANT to hunt with a recurve, but knowing your own truth about your inconsistency means you shouldn't. Ask yourself if you can live with the consequences of making a bad shot- even a 10 yard chip shot on a target can go bad on a live animal. Also ask yourself if you really can set limits on yourself, and live with knowing you could have taken the shot with a compound.
First you gotta be committed to hunting with a trad bow. Not doing it short of some injury does not even enter the mind.
Second you develop YOUR own form and aiming method from what feels good after trying everyones.
Third you practice it till you do it without thinking.Focusing on the shot.
The number one tip I got from watching MBB was from Rod Jenkins. Focus on making a perfect shot. The mechanics of it. Don`t worry about killing the deer...making the perfect shot will make that happen.
After all that if your effective range ends up being 10 yards...go hunting. Half of the critters I`ve killed were closer than that.RC
I shoot one arrow at different times during the day and 3d on weekends. When squirrel comes in I pretty much stump shoot and 3d with no home practice til Oct. Long practice sessions and grouping arrows always had a negative effect on me. There was a time that I was so worried about beinge ready I would shoot too much. Relax, practice smart, and you will be fine.
Rob
"I find that when I start to get sloppy, it's time to practice with one arrow. I don't get so rushed to fling 'em, and makes me concentrate on the shot more"
X2
Thats what I was doing leading up to Turkey season, 1 arrow with a broadhead. A week or so of that and I suprised myself with my improvement.
Eric
Practice until you are accurate, then the luck will come. The reason you lack consistency is form. If your form is consistent you will be accurate. Shooting a blank bale at 10' and working on each aspect of form 1 piece at a time greatly improved my shooting. I have found that a habit from sights is to "aim hard". If your form is correct, just relax and let the arrow go where you are looking. I have found that if I am shooting inconsistently, it's my bow arm. If you push and keep that arm steady through the follow through I think your inconsistency will vanish. I am not an archery coach and I slept in a wall tent last night! :smileystooges: Good Luck and kill a rabbit. If you can kill a rabbit, you can kill a moose.
One more comment if I may...
My dad always said that "one makes their own luck"!!!
A new friend of mine that happens to be one of the best shots in Texas also has a saying that I like. He says "you always want to bring a solid game and a little good luck never hurts".
Lot's of great advise offered here, I wish I would have found this site when I first began a few years back!!!
"I would rather be lucky than good any day"
Not me,
"I find the more I practice,the luckier I get"
2 options above,I picked the latter years ago. Seems to work for what I do.
Do get mired in all the options,pick one with some credit,and work at it till you start to get cosistant and then you will notice that things get better. Like RC said,you will start to do things your own way after a fasion. Don't over think it. Just stay with it.
CTT
To answer your question, I would absolutely not hunt with any weapon with which my accuracy was that inconsistent. There are a lot of times where I don't mind luck playing a part of my hunting. Shot accuracy isn't one of them.
The fact that you're so concerned about your hunting accuracy is extremely admirable. If more people took their shooting as serious as you, we'd see a lot fewer "I missed another one" threads with "just keep hunting and eventually you'll connect" responses every hunting season. No animal should be wounded because the hunter is trying to make a fashion statement with his/her choice of weapon. If you like all forms of archery, there's no reason you should eliminate one for the sake of another. Many people hunt (quite successfully I may add) with both compounds and stickbows. This is a pastime, not a religion. There's room for both.
Orion is correct in that everyone has an effective range. I also agree with him that most wounding is likely the result of people shooting too far for their abilities. That notwithstanding, there's no shame in concluding that your effective range is too short. If mine was only eight yards (just borrowing an example) I'd either work like heck to improve it or use a different weapon. And I wouldn't lose a minute of sleep worrying about what someone on the internet thought of that decision
Adding my two cents I'll say that I've killed three truckloads of game at less than ten yards with both compound and gun. Even if you're an excellant archer you still have to get close and it takes patience and woodsmanship to get close enough to a whitetail to harvest it with stick and string. If ten yards is your max consistency range set up all of your stands in tight places or funnels where you can get ten yard shots. It's actually easier for me to have the deer "appear" at close range than to watch him/her coming for 100 yds. And too, the further they are when you see them, the further they can see your movement and the longer you have to maintain that "limb" position. Look at it like this...if you use the wind( Woodsmanship 101) and you're hunting from an elevated or concealed position(blind) and they pop out you've got an easy shot within your comfort range and they'll be less likely inclined to look straight up and/or pick you off.....
QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
...If you like all forms of archery, there's no reason you should eliminate one for the sake of another. Many people hunt (quite successfully I may add) with both compounds and stickbows. This is a pastime, not a religion. There's room for both...
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I think I am more accurate now in the woods than I ever was with pins. But there is no way I will ever be able to do at 60 yards what I used to do on a flat range at a known distance with a stone cold dialed in 60-yard fiber optic pin. There is accuracy and there is accuracy. It really is "witchery."
There is no way you can remove risk of wounding loss. The more primitive you go, the more risk and the more you need to get close, practice persistently, have consistently good form and, pardon the cliche, a killer instinct that helps you focus on doing what you need to do to GIT IT.
I can understand your thinking on this matter and we do owe it to the animals we hunt to be as accurate as we can.As for the inconsistency in your shooting form shoot close and work on form.I know that sounds boring but accuracy and distance will come with time along with confidence.
I have the same problem and have been shooting Trad for 3 or 4 years, but always alone. Then I finally got a chance to shoot with a very good shooter at a local range.
Ken (njloco) watched me shoot and right away pointed out several form issues. One was a floating anchor, another was hunching my shoulders which didn't allow me to get full rotation in the shoulder to get the back muscles doing the work.
He had me shoot some Blind (or Blank) Bale. What an eye opener! When you aren't thinking about hitting anything, (eyes closed), you really feel all aspects of your form. Now I always start a session with some Blind Bale.
I've been using a lighter bow too, about 5 pounds lighter than I usually shoot. It's coming together now. I've added an inch or more to my draw length, and have adopted a 3 point anchor (feather on nose, corner of mouth, and thumb tucked under jaw.
I am confident I'll be deadly out to 20 yards well before the season. Try to shoot with an experienced shooter, or make a video and post it in the shooter's forum for the pro's to look over. I was thinking about that before I was able to shoot with Ken.
stick_string...I feel your pain. I am new to trad, but I have had good success with compound. I am frustrated with good groups one minute, followed by horrible 'groups' the next. I will not hunt until I figure it out, or--as noted previously--I will limit myself to a known good yardage/high percentage shot.
at least I have 5 more months to work on it! :D
Kingsnake
The sound answer is hunt within your effective range. Comparing your trad accuracy to your compound bow can be frustrating. They are two different weapons. FWIW I'm only a year into trad but with a compound I could felt very confident out to 60 yards (even further). Last deer season I let a buck walk at 15 yards with my recurve because I was inconsistent and didn't trust my accuracy. I shoot almost every day. Stump shooting and 3D shoots have really helped with my accuracy and confidence. I hope I get that shot again this year because I would feel very confident shooting now. Keep practicing and enjoy the limitations, commitment and difficulty level that trad archery requires.
Huge Ben & most proud of your ethics!
No guarantees even with a gun.., even at 10 yards! Things happen. No excuses! We need to be the best we can be to make sure we take the animal out of the woods if hit. Includes so much more than simply bow, arrow, & shot selection. Need woodskills & enough experience & confidence to do the job. Read the dog trailing thread. Why not? They're great tools! Everything at your disposal will keep the ghosts of deer past from your door. Unfortunately, many have ghosts. It's what drives me to practice what I preach. PM for more.
If you want to argue that point. . your compound skills pale compared to a scoped rifle. Why not put down your bow and take up a rifle ?
My thoughts. . trad bow hunting is not compound hunting. There is a reason why they are not competing in the same class in tournaments. If you feel the need to shoot 75 yards and hit a life saver. . . well. . . .
Doing it the other way means getting in closer and taking shots that you are able to make. Period. A very few are capable of taking those long shots.
That may mean waiting for a slam dunk at 5-10 yards. If so. . . well, that is the game you chose. OR. . go back to your compound. Your choice. . really.
This whole thing is not a religion, it is not about being better or worse, it is simply a choice. . your choice. . in what you want to do.
Don't think for a moment, however, that trad archery is a crutch. Look at the "book" (which seems almost too important now days). It is full of great animals that have been taken by folks just like us, and that number pales against the numbers not in any "book". By Folks that didn't give up.
ChuckC
I agree with Chuck. The best advice I got when I started hunting with trad gear was "get stupid close." The rush of getting within spitting distance of your prey is unbelievable and it really tests your abilities. Isn't that what trad hunting is all about. We use trad gear BECAUSE it's hard. Trad hunting makes the hunt more about the hunter than the gear. The gear is important, but not nearly as important as you are. Keep practicing, improve your shooting, but by no means stop hunting. Good shooting is only part of the game.
We all worry about wounding an animal, but I say if you can consistently hit your target at a certain distance (even if it's only 5 yds) you should go hunting and limit yourself to that distance. Even if you don't loose an arrow, you'll learn a lot more about hunting than you would if you took a wheel bow or a gun IMO.
For hunting , accuracy far outweighs anything else, I wont take a marginal shot, Maybe at a coyote , but never at a deer, or other big game, no one is perfect and everyone is capable of making a bad shot for one reason or another, but I try to save my luck for the 3D range
I shoot both, compound mostly for 3d now a days but will still take it out for some high stress hunts (great elk tag, sheep so on) Most other animals I shoot with the recurve. I will grab the compound if I have an off time or get busy and dont shoot much with the recurve. I'm a bowhunter first and wont have a high risk of a bad hit because I'm having an 'off' week hanging over my head.
That being said, I switched to a real high anchor, split finger shooting style and it basically got rid of all 'off' days. If your shooting is that out of wack even after a few weeks off, you have form/anchor issues (not bagging on you, had the same thing'.
Focus has been mentioned, but I believe needs to be looked at very closely. Personally, I'm an okay target shooter. I have good days and I have better days. What sets them apart is where my mind is at while shooting. If the mind wanders, so does the arrow.
When we shoot to kill, we do just that........concentrating 100% on one arrow only. Big difference.
I always have the mindset when hunting that I can make the shot. If you think negatively I believe it will effect your shooting.
Awful good stuff there ChuckC. RC
I have enjoyed this thread. Like all trad guys, I have had severe disappointments and a lot of really great experiences. It reminds me of my own self doubt that never ever completely goes away - nor would I want it to. Otherwise over confidence and failure to continue hard work clouds the trad bowhunter's work ethic.
Practice smart as described above. Concentrate on good form, taking only those shots that really do feel right. Killing game is not the only measure of success. If you put yourself in good position on an animal that is not aware of your presence, you still have "won the game", even if you do not drop the string. As long as you work hard and attempt only shots that are reasonable for your skill level and personal degree of confidence, you can feel comfortable that you are hunting fairly and ethically.It is supposed to be harder, you are supposed to get closer, and you are supposed to become a better woodsman. It is part of accepting the challenge of a more difficult and challenging approach to hunting.
Even these guys who have killed lot of game realize that they are not perfect and that bad luck can always figure in, but the more you practice, the luckier you will be. It is a mindset that says "I can do this, and I can develop the skills needed to do this with confidence". But it is a skill set developed over time, with ups and downs. Have faith in yourself. If you do the work, the results will come, so go enjoy yourself in hunting camp.
We have changed a bit. Although we always liked antlers and trophies, we have morphed into a society that has been taught, by the industry of course, and by the resultant peer pressure, that you HAVE to get the deer, you HAVE to get that Booner and you CAN do it (if you use our products).
Why use brand X and be able to shoot 10 yards, when you can use ours and shoot 100 yards. Think. . cut the right shooting lanes and you can cover the entire woodlot. Nothing escapes. If it comes by you. . you can take it.
Put out the right bait pile, grow the right crops and they will knock down your door. Wear the right clothing and you don't have to worry about the wind and your scent. Why take the time to learn how, when, by using our product. . .
Your time is precious. . .your tag once in a lifetime. . why waste (?) a moment of it using gear that limits you. GET THAT TROPHY ! You deserve it (I love that line).
And you know what. . I guess that's OK if that is what floats your boat.
I don't feel the same way. The hunt, the opportunity for the interaction, not just with the critter, but also the nature aspect, thats what I crave. I shoot nearly every day because that's what I do.
I would love to get a big critter, and frankly, if a big one and a small one walk by, I will try for the big one, like all or most of us. But I also am very OK if I don't get one at all, especially if the rest of the trip fulfills my needs.
Sure. . using trad style gear limits you. You have to put in the time. You have to practice and get good with your gear. This is not something that you can pick up the week before your hunt and "dial in" with three or four shots, as in a few other forms of hunting. This is a long term commitment. . . and it's OK if that is not for you.
Not everybody can commit the time and energy, but look around, in almost every single case the folks that do really well continuously, will religiously put in the time.
We all need to realize that. . maybe this isn't for me after all.
ChuckC