So I took a pic to better describe my issue. You can see where the light blue tint is at the edge of the arrow shelf. It doesn't matter what point weight I use as long as I use the CE Predator 45/60 shaft I get this wear pattern.
Why do I get this and is it a problem if I get straight flying arrows?
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/khardrunner14/photo.jpg)
It looks to me like the arrow is not flexing(paradox) until most of the shaft is past the risor. Are your nocks to tight on the string? or maybe a stiff/week shaft.
How about the bow stats and your draw and the arrow length, that info could help to figure the problem out.
Are your arrows tuned to the bow ?,what poundage bow is that at your draw length ?, we need more information, I am thinking Ipcjon2 might be correct the question is why is it doing that.
The bow is a 50lb @ 28inches r/d longbow that I draw around 29.5-30 inches.
I get this wear no matter what point weight I use with these shafts, but the arrow flight is usually good. By good I mean little to no wobble at all.
the shafts are full length CE predator 45/60. I get the best bareshaft tuning around 175-225 grains up front.
With your draw you may be at 55# and the shafts are 45-60 with 175- 225 up front.I think that the head weight at your draw would weeken the shaft, but you see no wobble?. 55# with a 60# shaft is cutting it close(given all I shoot is wood). You may be to week with those shafts and head weight.JMHO
I tried bareshafting everything from 125-250 and I had a definite slide to the right (I'm a lefty) with everything 175 and below. That would mean they are stiff since I'm lefty. With 175-225 I got pretty near right on. I don't have a 200's made up, but I will try them tomorrow.
Anyway, this bow is not cut to center, so keep that in mind.
Also, it doesn't matter what point weight I have...weak or stiff... I get the same exact blue spot from the graphics on the shaft.
I'm no expert, but I suggest that that may be a nock point issue, or perhaps indicative of a release that puts downward pressure on the arrow. My best guess is that your arrows are almost too stiff, or that your draw is a bit short sometimes, causing your arrows to be too stiff on those shots. That, combined with a nock point that results in an arrow banging off the shelf, or is too high or too low, would explain why you are getting the vertical wear marks. Something appears to be causing that arrow to leave the bow at an angle, with the tip and the fletching at different heights, as if it were "cart-wheeling" upon release. But your feathers are stabilizing it; I would surmise that a non-vented 2-blade broadhead wouldn't fly true.
I am having trouble with broadhead flight, but why do my bareshafts fly fine (even though they also leave the blue streak there)?
Thanks for the ideas, it helps me think through this.
Also, it's only with these shafts that I have this pattern. I get more normal wear with other shafts.
Again, I'm just trying to think it through.
I am just wondering out loud here....why would he even be shooting these shafts if others fly better?
Also, difficulty shooting broadheads tells me you have a spine problem most likely. Brace height and nocking point could also be variables that are causing your problems.
He's just looking for a answer. I am also a lefty with about the same draw and had the same ware pattern out of a set of arrows. My answer was to change arrows. Without looking back but was always wondering why too. I did finally decide that it was a spine problem.
The problem is that the lighter 30/50 arrows that give me better wear and pretty much fly the same also give me issues. Broadheads also fly poorly out of them compared to field points. The other problem is finding a broadhead light enough to use with the 30/50 shafts. I would need 125-145 grain with inserts meaning the broadhead has to be about a 100-110 grain broadhead.
I don't like the options in that catagory.
With the heavier spined shafts I'm hoping to be able to use a heavier broadhead.
You nocking point might be a bit too low, did you try to raise it a bit to avoid the arrow to tear the leather at the junction between the handle and the arrow rest ?
at what part of the arrow has the blue on it, and is the arrow showing wear on it in the middle or the nock end. Are your fletching's getting ripped off or chopped up? Have you tried to shoot the arrows cock feather in? pit a piece of masking tape over the rest and try them cock feather in.
khar, you said your other arrows aren't flying well when you put broadheads on. I'm curious what size fletching you use. You may just need a larger fletching. We spend hours (sometimes weeks) bareshaft tuning with field points, then glue what amounts to a spatula to the arrow and get frustrated when they don't fly true. It might be a lazy man's solution, but I think it's the reason native americans often used fletching longer than 6". It just works. Just my two cents...
I use 3x5inch fletching
I have my nocking point set at 3/16th and I nock above that. I moved it up from 1/8th but I may try a bit higher.
The blue is coming from the area just prior to the arrow wraps, maybe 2/3s of the shaft down from the point closer to the nock end.
Cock feather in seems to fly a bit worse
Whats the brace height at? Sounds like the arrow is not clearing the shelf soon enough.
With the cock in does it still hit and rub(did you put masking tape on the shelf ?).
I haven't checked that yet so I will do that at home later.
I get best results at 5 3/4. I've tried from 7 down to 5 5/8. Anything above 6 is terrible flight for all arrows compared to the lower brace heights.
For a longbow I think 5 3/4 is low on the brace, I have 3 longbows and they are from 7 1/4 to 7 1/2 brace. That brace may be your problem, combined with the nock once its adjusted to the correct brace.
Whats the bow length and suggested brace from the maker?
It's a fred anderson and I believe he recommends between 6 and 6.5 which didn't work well for me.
I would go up with the brace and check it at 1/4" increments from 6.5 on and adjust the nock as well.
When you get bad arrow flight, what are they doing? Up and down, back and forth or corkscrew?
Mostly up and down wobble which I would figure would be nocking point.
With heavy points I tend to get some dive bareshafting. With lighter points I don't get that though (I get sidways movement though showing stiff) so I figure my nocking point is ok.
Your sideways movement bareshafting could be brace height too. Sounds more like nocking point issues. Ive never placed a lot of importance to bareshafting. Only raises issues that don't naturally exist. Set the bow up to the makers recommendations and shoot your arrows. Watch the ring finger pressure on the string as that could also cause what you are describing.
Be sure to only change one thing at a time.
Raises issues that don't naturally exist? How so?
I think perhaps he is indicating that bareshafting can breed a lack of confidence since it can be very difficult to find an arrow and release that result in a perfectly flying bareshaft. It can possibly lead to over thinking the issue.
AkDan -
khardrunner pretty much defined what I meant. I don't dink around with carbon and have a very limited number of aluminum arrows for just that reason. Most all my longbows will shoot wood arrows with spine from 45# all the way up to 65# with no problems. No consternation, aggravation, frustration or over thinking. Too much fun to just go out and shoot.
Danny
I tend to agree with Ric. I'm not a huge fan of bareshafting. It is certainly a tool that can be used to find the right shaft for your bow, but it certainly isn't required and can cause unecessary headaches. If you bareshafted by shooting your bow from a machine it would work perfectly, but since most everyone shoots the bows themself, you've introduced human error in shooting form into your tuning. This is one of the reasons people get funny results sometimes. Fletching is used on arrows because it mutes a lot of user error during the shot, stabilizing the arrow. Bareshafted arrows are caused to fly poorly by both a stiff/weak spine and by imperfect shooting form, and it is often impossible to determine which is which. Just my opinion, for those of you who like bareshafting and get good results from it, more power to you, your form is undoubtedly better than mine.
You nock the arrow over the nock point? As I understand it, the reason for nocking under the nock point is to keep the arrow from kicking off the string upon release. I think your nock point may be too low, and you're banging off the shelf. Raise it up, way up, and slowly lower it, shooting bare shafts at each new set. As soon as you get rid of the nock-high, stop there.
Don't give up on bareshafting. If you can get an arrow to fly pretty well without feathers, it won't be fighting the feathers and losing speed and power as a result of them pulling it into a straight line. (If your brakes on your car are pulling to one side, sure, you can put opposing pressure on the steering wheel to keep the car going straight, but you end up sacrificing forward efficiency.)
EDIT: I just saw that last post above mine. I'm not trying to argue here; my bareshafting isn't perfect, because my form isn't perfect either. But the better a bare shaft flies, albeit shot with imperfect form, the fewer uncontrolled variables you have. The feathers should be the last resort element of arrow flight, not the catch-all, end-all to make up for poor tuning.
I have had this same thing. Took a long time to figure out, but as best I can tell, it is a combination of too stiff and not quite the right nock point height. I had that same wear and color from the shaft out a few inches ahead of the start of the feathers. On my bow the rub is happening while the arrow is still on the string. I put white electrical tape on the shelf edge and could see a streak develop on the arrow to show just how much of the shaft was making contact. Shoot enough and it will wear off the color on the arrow to show this to some extent.
I was able to get great broadhead flight most of the time. Must just be real consistent most of the time I guess, but I would have flair ups of issues.
Charts and the calculator were saying I needed the arrows I was shooting or close to it with some variation of point weight. I went a fair amount weaker and stiffer, and thought I was seeing the shaft get too stiff and too weak. Just could not figure it out. I believe the issue was too stiff an arrow, and as I got my nock point down in the right zone, the stiff arrow was tracking off the rest getting enough bite to run the back of the arrow out and look good in flight. Add more weight in combination with the tracking would show weaker bare shaft. Less weight would then finally get to where it was overriding the tracking some and finally get a false weak by running off the riser. It was confusing.
A shaft bends as it is shot. I believe it must flex up a little in addition to out to shoot well off the shelf. I also now think it is best to run the nock point up a little higher and work down with any shaft or major point change. This is because of the tracking and change to it with changes to dynamic spine. You have to rule out the tracking. Now I am trying to keep my arrow flying a little more nock high for low impact. Then work out the stiff weak, and finally fine tune the nock height.
I shoot recurves and RD hybrids. Had issue with most of them all but BW recurves because they have a nice narrow shelf and cut well past center. I did notice at times when I kept going weaker with my arrow I would find another sweet spot where it would shoot as well as my standard arrow set-up. Finally, I just went a lot weaker and kept playing with it until I found the right combination that would bare shaft well, and not rub much if at all.
I draw about 29.5" and shoot bows about 52-55 at that length. I was mostly shooting about a 3 ¼-30 ½" 5575 with 100 gr insert and points 125-175. I now am shooting 3555's at about 30"-30 ¼" with the same insert and point range. To shoot the 5575 I have to go about 31" or more and shoot 100 insert and 200-250 points. Nock height is where it should be. Now when I get a weaker flying bare shaft it is typically also close to level. This I believe is the tracking taking over as the shaft runs a little too low and level coming off the bow. I think this is typically due to a release or more than normal hand heal pressure. I also now run a little more nock high flight than I used to run. I used to try and get just a 3-4" low and weak bare shaft to fletched impact at 20 yd. I now run about 6".
Somehow, I suspect some of this is due to the HFOC you get with carbons and the fast reaction of a carbon in flex.
All good stuff guys. Keep it coming, this is a good discussion!
xtrema - I've shot my 30/50's though with weights up as high as 250 and I do not see good bareshafts with that. They are definitly showing weak. Not only that but at least the broadheads that I tried at that weight flew very erratically. They were straight, but I couldn't hit anything!
Archie, I knock above for a number of reasons but mostly because I have seen the high speed footage of arrows sliding down the string on release when there is nothing under there to stop it.
I will try a higher nocking point and see where that gets me too.
Too bad it's raining now and I shot A LOT the last two days. Most of this testing will have to wait until tomorrow most likely.
How about a nock point both above and below the arrow? I've had to try that on different bows due to my long draw and my tendency to put downward pressure on the arrow at full draw. That helps keep the arrow in the right place at least until it leaves the string.
QuoteOriginally posted by khardrunner:
xtrema - I've shot my 30/50's though with weights up as high as 250 and I do not see good bareshafts with that. They are definitly showing weak. Not only that but at least the broadheads that I tried at that weight flew very erratically. They were straight, but I couldn't hit anything!
I had the same exact thing when I tried the lighter spine a couple years ago. One issue was my realease and the other was not getting my nock point up. I have no issues now with this spine now. I also found completly different flight with 3 under vs. split. I think 3 under tends to flex the arrow different and keep it off the rest.
QuoteOriginally posted by Archie:
How about a nock point both above and below the arrow? I've had to try that on different bows due to my long draw and my tendency to put downward pressure on the arrow at full draw. That helps keep the arrow in the right place at least until it leaves the string.
I think this is a must with carbon nocks most of the time. My arrow will slide around too much. If it slides down it will run on the shelf harder or bounch off.
Mine can't slide down as I have a nock point below the nock. It won't slide up since gravity doesn't work that direction and I don't think the point weight is enough to slide it up (though I may try some stuff with that).
I have the nocking point at 3/16ths above 0 already, and I nock ABOVE that. I wonder how much Higher I can go?
I do shoot split by the way.
Again, thanks guys I'm getting a lot of info and I am able to really think this through. I have a hog hunt in the beginning of June and I want to figure this out before then. I just swapped to lefty, and it seems to be going pretty well. I'll post some video of me shooting here so you can see if you can find any issues.
two direct links here... one close up and one back. This is prior to me getting better flight with the lower brace height and moving the point up from 1/8 to 3/16ths above center.
http://s214.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/khardrunner14/?action=view¤t=IMG_0536.mp4
http://s214.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/khardrunner14/?action=view¤t=IMG_0535.mp4
Interestingly here is a pic of my Dad's MOAB using the same shafts with lower point weight (his bow is 55@27) and he draws right at 27". Notice the lovely blue streak. BTW... these fly like magic out of his bow.
Sorry I don't like PB's new image editor so here is the direct link.
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc197/khardrunner14/25bcf8ee.jpg
When I started bareshafting the bow I now shoot almost exclusively, I started with the nock at 3/4 of an inch. I ended up with it around 5/8". That's just what works (and works well) for me and my release.
I would experiment with two nock points. Even though you wouldn't think the arrow would kick up at release, the idiosyncracies of your release could somehow inject some upward pressure and bounce it up.
QuoteOriginally posted by khardrunner:
[QB] Interestingly here is a pic of my Dad's MOAB using the same shafts with lower point weight (his bow is 55@27) and he draws right at 27". Notice the lovely blue streak. BTW... these fly like magic out of his bow.
Whoa HO!!!! The problem is solved!!!! It is hereditary......
:saywhat: :knothead:
Just watched your clips...
It looks to me like you might be pulling (holding) harder with your bottom two fingers. It looks like your index finger is releasing more cleanly and your bottom two are baring the brunt of the release. I have that tendency, and it gave me a big callous on my ring finger, and a big mark on my bow shelf. At full-draw, I was putting downward pressure on the arrow nock and then at release, the pressure was released, resulting in a bang off the shelf and erratic flight. I have learned now that when I hear a "clink" when I release, that means that I did it AGAIN, pulling too much with the ring finger, and the arrow has hit the shelf.
Like I said earlier, I'm no expert. I should probably excuse myself from this conversation so that other, more experienced people can give their opinions.
Nah stick around... my ring finger has been a bit sore. Maybe that's part of the problem though I have been trying to fix that.
QuoteOriginally posted by Ric O'Shay:
QuoteOriginally posted by khardrunner:
[QB]
Whoa HO!!!! The problem is solved!!!! It is hereditary......
:saywhat: :knothead: [/b]
:laughing:
Pulling more with your bottom fingers will be a little like shooting 3 under and require more nock height. 3/16" is low for split for most people. Form and tiller vary things. I run more like 1/2" - 5/16" split and 5/8" 3 under. I shoot a MOAB also. Also had that same wear issue. Even pulled more with my bottom fingers and did the callous thing until I made some changes. Many things in common here. I cannot tell for sure on your bows, but my MOAB has a shelf that slopes away a little from the riser. I found that would really allow me to shoot that stiff arrow because it would track real nice and consistent on that slope. Been shooting a 5575 for years on it with that type of wear, but have it shooting real nice now at about 54#@29 with 30 ¼" 3555 and 225-245 up front.
I braved the rain and am no closer to resolving the issue. Here are some thoughts from today's session....
1) brace height anywhere above 6-6.5 is terrible. Everything from arrow flight to pull is no good. 5.75-6 seems best.
2) Really high nocking points (above 1/2) are no good. Even worse flight than low points. Seems the best right now is where the arrow sits at around 3/8ths in the center
3) the 45/60 shafts suck.
4) Wood arrows are more forgiving. No matter what I changed or how poor the shot they always flew the best in comparison to both carbons (30/50 and 45/60).
5) I don't know what to do now.
shoot the woodies! :D
In all seriousness, I've had the sore ring finger before and it was due to poor form. That could be part of the problem. A high elbow will cause you to pull more with the ring-finger (as some other have suspected you're doing) and could give you some of the flight problems. Tension in the forearm can also cause sore fingers and goofy arrow flight.
Is it possible that the carbon is reacting so quickly to the pressure of the string that it's returning to straight before it passes the riser? Just a thought....I don't use carbon, but I have noticed strange arrow flight with woodies with the same spine rating but made from different types of wood. Some react so slowly that you effectively need a much stiffer spine than you'd imagine to get decent arrow flight.
Sell the arrows and the bow, Just kidding. When all else fails blame your release.
But why would my release work with the woodies and not the carbons?
As far as shooting the woodies there's another problem... they are too short for broadheads. I have no idea what spine they are so I don't know what to buy to replace them.
As for my ring finger, it was fine today. I may still be grabbing a bit, and I will continue to work on that. You can check out my form a couple of posts up to see if my elbow is high. I don't think it is. I am really focusing on keeping the string hand relaxed as possible while maintaining a good hook on the string. I'm focusing on the middle and pointer fingers.
Wood is forgiving. If you have checked all the things that everyone has mentioned, then I am at a loss as to whats next.
I pretty much have. I will continue to work at it though in smaller increments...maybe when it's not raining :-).
It's hard to get it all figured out. There are some guys shooting carbons that are probably 20#'s heavier than what I'm shooting and other shooting 10#'s lighter all out of similar bows. I guess it's like an experiment of one.
I don't shoot carbons, but I understand that they have a different recovery rate, meaning that they flex and re-flex (recover) at a different speed than wood and aluminum.
If I were totally messed up and had to start over, here is what I would do:
1. Find out the recommended brace height range of the bow from the bowyer, and set it right in the middle, which would give you room to adjust.
2. Determine what weight broadheads you want to shoot.
3. Set the nock point a little high. Get your shafts flying somewhat well but still a little nock-high. You don't want them to hit the shelf and affect your flight.
4. Start working with full-length shafts and shoot bare shafts with your desired weight field points until you find a shaft that shows a little weak (nock right for a lefty).
5. Start shortening that shaft a quarter-inch at a time, then shooting several shots and determining whether the weak spine is being resolved.
6. Fine-tune the nock height and brace height as needed. A little nock-high (bareshafting) is OK, and the feathers should clean that up.
If you already tried all this, or know all this stuff, forgive me for being redundant.
I've got that, but my resources are limited both in shafts and points. I can't afford to purchase several test kits... wood or carbon....which is why I am working all this through so publicly.
I'm thinking through my options though.
Cheapest way to play with carbon is point weight and heavy inserts.
Give 3 under a try once to see what happens. I find I have lot cleaner release that way and can better evaluate arrow tune. Once I get dialed in I can work down the nock height for split and know bad flight is release.
I think your 45/60's are WAY TOO stiff. The ones I tried acted much much stiffer that expected, even on a center-cut recurve. Stiff arrow always wear the near side of the riser (for me) and sometimes the shelf too, similar to your wear pattern.
If you haven't, add nock sets above and below the arrow to eliminate the arrow nock sliding up/down upon release (it happens). Then go higher on your nocking point, it seems too low (shelf wear)
Your brace seems way too short - holding the arrow on the string longer will really make it unforgiving of bow grip & string release. It also weakens the arrow - the reason it shot better for you at lower brace heights.
If you want to make the 45/60's shoot. You'll do best by raising the brace much higher (more forgiving), raise the nock more (more forgiving), and send me your address for some 100 grain brass inserts to weaken your shafts enough to make them shoot. What field point weights do you have now and need now?
Also, when you're evaluating right/left arrow flight (fish-tailing) relative to changing your spine (by adding/subtracting point weight) or evaluating up/down arrow flight(porpoising) by changing nock set heights, you should always hold the bow vertical to get a proper "read". Canting the bow at an angle will make a nock-too-high arrow porpoise at the cant angle, making it wobble up and down, but also right & left, due to the angle. Likewise with a stiff/weak arrow.
Tune with bow held vertical first, then, if there is a difference in flight of the vertically tuned combo caused by canting the bow, you can fine tune to eliminate the problem.
Also pm me your email and I'll send you a tuning tuning guide in pdf format.