Read a quote by Mr. Howard Hill in a recent thread.
The quote is: "Son make up your mind right now if you want to target shoot or hunt as theres a world of differance between the two"
I would really like to hear what you guys think about this. What is "the world of difference"? specifically. I haven't read his book and perhaps that contains some insight, but to me, aside from all the other intangibles that make one a good hunter, what's he trying to say about shooting?
I'm no yoda but to me the difference is targets aren't alive. Targets are great for muscle memory and form but when you you draw back on a living animal the serious factor changes. 6 inches to the left on a target your wondering what happened with your shot. Same thing during a hunt and you may have sent an animal off to suffer a horrible death. To me the stress factor goes up greatly with hunting. Just my 2 cents. I haven't read the book either so I maybe way off. And as you posted then there are the uncontolled circumstances of a hunt.
The difference for me is mental. Shooting at a living, moving, breathing thing adds more variables than if you are just shooting targets. Target shooting you set your own pace and tempo, can have a step by step process and have much more control over variables. In hunting, circumstances dictate a good deal of how things happen. Having said that, however, I don't think Hill ever lost a tournament he shot in and regardless of what your target is, alive or not, you still need control over yourself and your shot. There is no substitute for shooting well, in either situation. Good shooting is what it is....good shooting.
For me it's risk and consequence. I shoot at my target at 40 yards every day from as realistic hunting situations as I can create. I'd never shoot at a live animal at that range, tho. OK, maybe a starling. But the risk of sticking a buck in the butt or the ear is just terrible at that range. But I will say that Hill did not share my squeamishness. He flung some arras, that guy. And maybe what he meant was you just can't duplicate real hunting conditions so you have to train for that, not for range conditions. (That is, stump and rove, probably.)
Remember. . . that was said "back in the day"
Back in the day, there was target archery and there was bowhunting, and very vew did the bowhunting. Back then, the techniques used for target archery were really not so conducive to hunting (like, maybe. . asking the deer to stay still while I run up and throw a point of aim indicator on the ground a few yards before it so I have something to aim at), like pulling up, standing straight up and holding for a long time before releasing etc.
ChuckC
Yup two different states of mind.Targets are a single focused event, hunting is a continual focused event that changes with every step.JMHO
Different gear. Different mentally. Often different form.
Could have been relating it to the different forms required for the two activities. Form that works great for targets is not always applicable in a hunting situation. Hunting form for a 20 yard shot is not always the best for a tight group at 40 plus yards for a target.
I am not laughing an jokeing when hunting!
when Iam hunting I have a totally differnt mind set.however I have a blast when doing both,
QuoteOriginally posted by SheltonCreeker:
I'm no yoda but to me the difference is targets aren't alive. Targets are great for muscle memory and form but when you you draw back on a living animal the serious factor changes. 6 inches to the left on a target your wondering what happened with your shot. Same thing during a hunt and you may have sent an animal off to suffer a horrible death. To me the stress factor goes up greatly with hunting. Just my 2 cents. I haven't read the book either so I maybe way off. And as you posted then there are the uncontolled circumstances of a hunt.
X2! Target doesn't have antlers! You can shoot targets, 3D all day, and do really well, but when there a 6X6 bull elk charging to within 10 yards of you, well that's a whole different story. Same thing for cops who shoot paper all the time, but when you have a bad guy hell bent on blowing you away, things go wrong real fast!!
QuoteOriginally posted by SheltonCreeker:
I'm no yoda but to me the difference is targets aren't alive. Targets are great for muscle memory and form but when you you draw back on a living animal the serious factor changes. 6 inches to the left on a target your wondering what happened with your shot. Same thing during a hunt and you may have sent an animal off to suffer a horrible death. To me the stress factor goes up greatly with hunting. Just my 2 cents. I haven't read the book either so I maybe way off. And as you posted then there are the uncontolled circumstances of a hunt.
X2! Target doesn't have antlers! You can shoot targets, 3D all day, and do really well, but when there a 6X6 bull elk charging to within 10 yards of you, well that's a whole different story. Same thing for cops who shoot paper all the time, but when you have a bad guy hell bent on blowing you away, things go wrong real fast!!You really have to factor in the stress factor!
Hill won a mess of field turnaments and set a record doing it, and he realized it involved two different methods of aiming. The better target shooters, like Larry Hughes shot differently when hunting. Hunting shots were fluid, and not deliberate. Shooters were using two different styles, even before sights. It does not improve you ability by switching back and forth. John Schulz put it his book, "Straight Shooting".
Pretty soon you feel like :dunno: why I missed that deer.
You have to know how to hunt to bow hunt.Ones hunting the other is just shooting.
From what I actually read from the book and gathered it had nothing to do with 'form'....but more about positions and aiming.
Once he started hunting and got away from target shooting, he started making shots instinctive, and from un orthodox positions....even though is form was still the same.
I think it depends on 'what' target archery is being talked about and how good you want to be. If you want to be mediocre-no problem.
If we are talking top 1% in long distance shooting=ultralite arrows, 90 meters etc that is a different situation. As I recall Howard himself had problems with certain types of target shooting and quit entering those events he likely knew what he was talking about.
I would think back then there was a big diff. in weight between target and hunting bows.
Hunting isn't about what you can do with five arrows, and what kind of group you get.
Hunting is one chance, one well placed arrow, and a quick humane kill.
In target archery you got all day to set up the shot. In hunting you will have much less time to make it happen.
I see it quite often when hunting, and as he would explain in further readings, game animals just don't wait for you to get all lined up.
His swing draw, no hold at anchor, fluid style, allows you to get in tune with moving things. His quick shooting style surpasses all but the rangefinder/gap methods in terms of raw accuracy.
Then on game, ha ha, by the time you got the rangefinder out, never mind the gap set on target, he'd already have a 90# cedar shaft through the "target." No EFOC, no F/F.
I think you guys are right about the "one shot from any possible angle/circumstance" vs. the repetitive mechanics of shooting groups at a bullseye. Like Terry said, I really don't think it has anything to do with form, because form is form no matter what you're shooting. To me it's how one would practice. You either spend the majority of your time shooting those groups and hammering out your aiming system and routine, or as a hunter the majority of your time is spent with one arrow honing your skill at unknown distances, different positions, stumpshooting, etc. It would behoove anyone to spend time doing both, but in the end you must focus the bulk of your time doing one or the other. Just my interpretation after reading your responses. Thanks.
I love hunting small game, there is a lot of difference between foam rabbits and real rabbits. I cannot even remember ever not having to do something goofy with the stance and the timing on successful shots at real bunnies. Obviously target practice was important to Hill, but he did a lot more varied practice routines than most of us do in our back yards or at our local ranges. Hill's practice routines would probably be frowned upon at most shooting ranges.
I agree with Terry. Though I am no Guru, I feel to me, he meant that you don't have time to be methodical,as you do in Target shooting, as well as the aiming system, and hold. Hunting, even from a Stand is quick and more instinctive. To be able to shoot an animal on the move if have too or from a swinging position as it moves away or bust you on the stalk. And let us not forget the quick rush of adrenaline that we get from hunting that we dont get from targets, that primal instinict that the good lord embedded in us.
QuoteOriginally posted by NBK:
I really don't think it has anything to do with form, because form is form no matter what you're shooting.
Not necessarily. Go watch some olympic archers and then try to shoot a deer that way.
I used to shoot a lot of tournaments in my wheel bow days. I started out doing it as a fun way to practice for bowhunting. I shot in the hunter's class with fixed sights, etc. But, the more I got into it, the more my gear changed. I ended up shooting in the open class with moveable sights, giant stabilizers, back tension release aids, light arrows, etc.
I'm new to traditional shooting and I'm not up to date on what target archery was like back then. But, I'll bet to be in the top scorers, you had to deviate from a normal hunting set up. Maybe a different kind of aiming. Maybe a lighter bow. Maybe a lower anchor.
I think his point was that you can only specialize in one or the other. That doesn't mean you can't do both, but being one of the best in both might be very difficult.
That's all my own inexperienced opinion.
A lot of what he was talking about had to do with bow weight and shooting style, which varied quite a bit between target shooters and hunters. The same holds true today.
Most of the good target shooters today are shooting light bows and arrows, and tend to use point of aim and/or string walking, where legal. Many also shoot three under and barrel sight. Now, all of that could be used for hunting, and a few probably do use it for hunting. Three under is certainly gaining popularity among hunters, for example. Most whose focus is hunting shoot heavier bows and arrows and use "instinctive/split vision aiming. They're still beasts of a different color.
From what I have read and from watching his movies I believe what he is really referring to is ones shooting "rhythm". Unlike a target style shooter that will shoot in a very static way AND take an inordinate amount of time aiming, Howard developed his style that was quicker at getting shots off at game and more flexible in terms of his shooting position....especially how you held the bow (in what position). In this sense he was right in that by practicing one too much you ruin yourself for the other.