I am having a tough time choosing a head for elk. I was pretty sure about the Razorcaps, but I have been hearing such great things about Simmons lately, I'm not sure which I want! I'm as fickle about broadheads as WildmanSC is about bows! (no offense :D ) I'm now shooting a 62#@30" DAS Dalaa with 530gr. Victory arrows, but I will probably be shooting a 53#@30" Dalaa with Hex5-H limbs and 480gr. Victories by the time season starts. Which would you choose (Tigershark or Razorcaps) based on penetration and blood trails? Thanks,
Craig
Craig, I am like you, I like to mess about with my gear some, and broadheads are about as cheap and fun as any piece of gear. But don't over-analize it is all good with minimal differences IF you shoot a well tuned bow and take high percentage shots. Good luck, don't overthink it, it will lead to doubt at your moment of truth.
I just like 3 blade head better than 2 and for elk and the right bow and arrow set-up penetration would not be an issue with me. Shawn
I have not had any problem with two blades so I would not change so I voted for the simmons
thanks for the poll
With the Simmons tiger sharks, you get the best of both worlds. Now if the big ole Snuffer was in the blood trail part, it would have gotten my vote. :D
Mike
If you guys think penetration wouldn't be an issue with either from either setup I really just want the one with the best blood trails...thanks,
craig
Is the Simmons Tiger Shark the convex head ... or is that another Shark? In Dr.Ashby's most recent studies, soon to be updated on his page here at TradGang, the convex-head Sharks performed the worst of all two-blade heads when impacting heavy bone, like an elk scapula. Grizzly single-bevels, modified to a 25-degree edge bevel and a Tanto point, proved indestructable and by far the best at splitting heavy bone for lethal penetration. Excuse me for saying so, but this is heartfelt help I'm trying to offer ... your entire arrow setup is cruising for trouble with elk. Again relying on Ashby's superb and unimpeachable work, born out by my own long experience with elk, you need at least 650 total grains of arrow weight to have a decent chance of penetrating heavy bone for a lethal kill. Other crucial elements -- aside from perfect arrow flight and sharp heads, of course -- incudes a strong, long and narrow two-blade head, like Grizzly, STOS and others, as much forward-of-center (FoC) arrow balance as yu can achieve (carbons are good for this) and more. I highly recommend that you read Ashby's most recent, 2005 update on this site. TBM will be publishing a series of articles on his latest work this fall and winter. Sure, you can kill an elk with a weak bow and light arrows and multi-blade heads ... if you and the elk are lucky. The only moral choice is to set up your gear to kill elk with the worst possible hit. I have personally seen arrows bounce out of an elk shoulder blade hit. Broadside, you have about 50/50 chance of hitting a rib, and the low front ones over the lungs and heart and the heaviest and closest together. Turn that animal even slightly at an angle and those ribs "close up" making a rib hit absolute. I strongly suggest that you upsize your arrows. Good luck, dave
I have to agree with Dave. I have only killed a few elk, and cant believe how tough they are and how massive their bones are. Especially if you are hunting our Roosevelt elk, add at least 10-20% to the body size, and you could have almost a moose sized animal on your hands. I would up your arrow weight to at least 650 and stick with a strong 2 blade. I would always count on a less than perfect hit, then there are never any surprises.
brack
Bravo Dave, right on the money. T
good info here, thanks Dave, going on my first ever elk adventure, and have had alot of folks tell me my usuall white tail set up of 62lb longbow and 560 gr cedars with zwickey delta would be fine, but I can weight up my aluminums to 650 pretty easily. Sounds like the way to go.
The Tigershark is a concave head. My 480gr. arrow will be going 212fps.
craig-
In the speed vs. Momentum debate, speed always looses. You need mass for consistent penetration. In my opinion, i would add at least 100 grains and see what happens. you will still be shooting a plenty fast arrow, should be at least in the 190s, which is faster than 90% of guys shoot. Getting through those ribs and (heaven forbid) shoulders is not easy with any bow/arrow combo. I would shoot your setup all day for deer, but I would rethink it for elk.
brack
Ah shucks, I meant to say concave -- rounded in. Ashby says in his latest tests (which I have seen) that's the weakest shape for broadheads with a high failure rate. He likes Grizzlies, but any long, narrow, very strong two-blade should work. I really like STOS but will give the Griz a try this year.
A sharp one!!!!! :goldtooth:
I agree with the heavier weight shafts. In my experience with elk, 4 elk taken and 3 others hit, all the ones I killed were shot with 590+ gr. and the ones I didn't recover weren't...well, one of those was shot with a heavy arrow and my poor shooting was to blame. I would shoot at least 600 and 650 or more is better.
I guess the grizzlies are the broadhead for those that only hit bone all the time. I thought a well placed arrow is what's important. You say things can go wrong? At the moment of truth, that's when all that practice pays off. Right? We do practice, don't we?
Guys,
The thing with my arrow setup is that I have gotten a lot input from people I respect that recommend this weight of arrow. I know a lot of guys like heavy, but I shoot a relatively light arrow best (about 200-210fps) and I think that's really important. I don't cut any corners when it comes to arrow tuning. I bareshaft them at 40+ yards to insure that they are perfect. I use a plunger/rest setup. I think that's where most penetration problems arise, not arrow weight. I do respect that opinion, but am set on the arrow issue for now. How many of you guys bareshaft? How far? When you do, do you compensate for the lost weight of your feathers/vanes, wraps, cresting etc.?
I think heavy arrows are more efficient on heavy bone, but I think you're in a heap of trouble with heavy bone either way. I'd rather have that extra accuracy and avoid the bone.
Thanks for the opinions, I do appreciate it, and certainly respect all of them.
God bless,
Craig
again; if your shooting one arrow; and using a light bow; your going to satisfy experts that your arrow is heavy enough for elk- and other big game.
But take the same arrow; leave everything the same.... but increase the bow weight; and you will be an irresponsible hunter: for using too light an arrow.
Consistant accuracy; and a SHARP broadhead- will do more to take down game: than arrow weights; and broadhead types.
At 40 yards you are even worse off with the lighter setup. If I am not mistaken the lighter weight you have the more momentum is lost down range. Heavier weight keeps its momentum at greater distances.
Also, a heavy arrow can be tuned and shot just as accurately as a light one, in my opinion.
Craig,
Don't take this the wrong way, I'm just curious.
I just read through a thread you started on "Trad Talk" last Nov. where it looks like you're using the same set-up on whitetails (with the Razorcap). You said you hit a doe in the shoulder blade, didn't get good penetration, didn't get a good blood trail and didn't find the doe.
Why would you use the same set-up on elk?
I was actually using an arrow that was like 675gr. The blood trail was actually OK for a shoulderblade hit. I didn't bareshaft my arrows back then, and I didn't quite get to full draw. That's part of why I'm going down 10# in bow weight. I know now that my arrow wasn't flying that great, and hitting the shoulderblade sure didn't help! I'm going to be a lot more anal about tuning from now on. I was overbowed, I wouldn't admit it then, but I think I can't avoid it now. So I believe strongly that this was a tuning problem. They looked like they flew OK, and I know that not hitting full draw screwed me up big time. The problem was me, not my setup.
Dave is right on the money. I live in Montana and have killed alot of elk. But I have also been in on alot of elk kills with my hunting partners. I've seen elk killed with 2,3 and 4 blade heads. But the one thing that seems to be the most consistent is a heavier arrow. Your basic whitetail set up will kill and elk...But most hard core western elk hunters don't use thier whitetail set up. I shoot an 80 lb longbow with arrow weight around 650 grains with a 4 blade Magnus Stinger. Arrow speed is right at 200 FPS. In truth I should be shooting a heavier arrow, but one thing is certain, I defintely won't shoot a lighter arrow! Most of my hunting partners shoot heavy arrows 650 plus grains and either Magnus or Zwickey 2 or 4 blades. My advice (for what its worth) Shoot a heavy arrow, sharp cut on contact head, take only a high percentage shot and stay away from the shoulder!
Best, Peter
Mr. Chuck-
For those of us that occasionally miss, a sharp broadhead and a heavy arrow is very important. For those of you who never miss, a blowgun dart should be sufficient. I tend to go with what I have seen with my own eyes and what the experts tell me, which is heavy and sharp.
brack
brakshooter, I didn't mean to ruffle sensitive feathers here. Two blade, four blade, heavy or light, I feel that accuracy is most important. That comes with becoming one with your equipment, whatever the set up is. I spend a lot of time shooting, and when I draw on an animal, there is no question or doubt in mind about the shot. I pick my shot carefully, and my equipment is up to the game hunted. Whether it's up to anyone else's idea of a good set up is a matter of opinion. It's works for me!
mr chuck-
I feel the same way about my setup that you do about yours. You are absolutly correct: practice and feel is the most important thing in our sport. I shot a deer a few years back where the arrow hit an unseen limb and resulted in a less than favorable hit. But thanks to a strong broadhead, heavy arrow, and alot of luck to hit the artery I hit, it went down in 80 yards. No feathers ruffled here, you know where I am coming from.
brack
FWIW...
Your 480-grain carbons at 212 fps have 48 ft-lbs of Ke and .4512 lb-sec of momentum.
My 520-grain carbons going 194 fps have 43 ft-lbs of Ke and .4473 lb-sec of momentum. Less that your setup on both accounts.
Tipped with a 2-blade cut-on-impact broadhead, last September I shot completely through the chest of a broadside Canadian bull moose. The arrow went between the ribs on the entrance side and split an offside rib vertically before flying off into the bush.
In short: I personally wouldn't hesitate to hunt elk with your setup, but that's with well-tuned carbon arrows.
Hey Craig... honestly either setup should be fine with sharp heads and well tuned arrows...For me I use the two blade just in case I do hit bone...