OK guys, let's assume my broadheads are razor sharp and I hit a deer in the boiler room -- what's the farthest distance a 50 pound bow would do the job with a 450 grain arrow?
In other words, I'm wondering when it starts running out of Kinetic Energy so that penetration becomes an issue?
P.S. I understand that this is not an ethical type of shot and I personally wouldn't try shooting past 25 yards --I'm just curious.
Around 200 yards would be my guess! That arrow is deadly until it hits something! It's just a matter of how far can you make the shot every time, that's where ethics come in and why we traditional archers keep our targets close!
Benjy
I've shot a whitetail at 38 yards, but it is not a shot that I would always take. It's not that you can't shoot and hit at a certain yardage, but the deer's reactions are so good he probably won't be there when the arrow gets there. The closer he is the better the shot will be.
Howard Hill, Ben Pearson, and many others, back in the day, made kills at over 100 yards-draw weight unknown. English archers practiced at distances over 100 yards-heavy draw weight bows. The Mongols, et. al., shot flight arrows close to 900 yards-short horn bows. I guess the answer is the greatest distance at which you could place that arrow in the vitals-considering gravity, 30+/- degree angles, etc.
Bingo !! even with a compound it gets dicy past 40 yards , there is a world of difference between popping a target and reality in the field.
(It's not that you can't shoot and hit at a certain yardage, but the deer's reactions are so good he probably won't be there when the arrow gets there. The closer he is the better the shot will be.)
A long ways...
25 yards but that's just me. ;)
Good luck in your experimenting! :thumbsup:
I would think even when the arrow starts to run out of steam and descends down, be it 200yds,300yrds, or more.
When the BH hits the animal the rest of the shaft keeps on pushing.
If everything is tuned right then I would say, as far as your bow will shoot, depending on the bow weight. Or I could be wrong lol.
Way farther than I'm capable of keeping my shot in the kill zone.
I agree with the keeping it close. I was just wondering because I've been practicing at 40 and my arrow penetration isn't significantly different than at 20.
As for myself 25 is the limit in a hunting situation.
I'm thinking you need to be thinking in terms of 20-25 yard max, for real world hunting.
But then again, that's just where I draw the line.
I enjoyed your question, Slim, and even noticed you were only asking in hypotheticals. So you won't read another tired "Oh, keep it close" statement from me.
Many men lost their lives or limbs at two hundred yards from the arrows of war bows centuries ago. When the rain of those projectiles fell upon them indescriminently they didn't bounce off harmlessly.
When the Romans were caught off guard by a lessor army of Persians on horse back using their new secret weapon, the horn bow, wreaking havoc on the invaders at long distance the men weren't falling dead in Ceaser's ranks because of annoyance. Those pointy sticks were plenty lethal from way out there.
Thanks for noticing the hypotheticals Chris
I don't disagree about keeping it close; never have -- I was just asking a question that I'm curious about.
Where I hunt you wouldn't get a shot 25 yards through the woods anyhow. The cover is thick and hilly. Too many overhanging branches.
Plus, I've hunted for long enough to know that all it takes is one move of the animal to change a good shot into a bad one.
The longest shot I ever took on a deer was 28 yards and that seemed far too long. Most of my encounters are far closer. I like it that way.
I did read a thread quite some time ago where someone chronographed at point blank,20 and 30 yds.
Loss of speed was 3.65% at 20 yds and 6.25% at 30 yds.
Interesting Jim B....
Your arrow carries a lot of momentum with it. A heavier arrow will carry it's momentum further than a lighter arrow. For instance a 650 grain arrow will have more energy at 200 yards than a 450 grain arrow will. I would say though with a 450 grain arrow you could kill a deer out to about 80 yards or so if bone was hit. If no bone was hit than you could shoot him just about as far as your bow will shoot as flesh is easy to penetrate with a razor sharp broadhead.
Anyone know how many foot-pounds of Kinetic energy it takes to penetrate hide?
QuoteOriginally posted by Slim:
Anyone know how many foot-pounds of Kinetic energy it takes to penetrate hide?
Nope!!! but to be honest... When I was starting out bow hunting I was told by an old timer, that the best test for hunting penetration was a cheap styrofoam gas station cooler with ice water!
After all adeer is hide(x2), 2 ribs and 2 lungs... If you punch through all that, it is a dead deer... a styrofoam cooler has more resistance, but then deer will turn on you as well... so to get piece of mind the cooler will do it!!! After all I've read that many Native American bows were sub 45 and even sub40 ### :biglaugh:
But I am sure the trad-police correct answer is no more than 20-25 yds :deadhorse:
Makes good sense to me.
asfar as you can hit it
bowhunting is a close range operation (0 to 30) yards.......many seem to have forgotten that in these days of hype......try and work as close as possible and set a limit and stick to it no matter what..... and then there are no worrys.....I know a man personnally who shot and killed a whitetail at 101 steps.......would never reccommend ANY shot over 30 yards.....just my opinion.......
I've often wondered about this as well, especially while watching battle scenes in movies. But physics is hard. We need an educated person to break it down for us. I suspect height of the arrow's arc will come into play.
Get a peice of hide.Take your hunting sharp BH on a arro.Put the nock end of the arro on a hard surface and atempt to poke the BH thru the hide.
You willbe very surprised how easily the BH cuts into the hide.Kinda like getting a shot at the Docs if your BH's tip is good and sharp.
As long as the arrow remains in an arching flight path it will remain lethal untill it stops
QuoteOriginally posted by Slim:
OK guys, let's assume my broadheads are razor sharp and I hit a deer in the boiler room -- what's the farthest distance a 50 pound bow would do the job with a 450 grain arrow?
As far as the bow can propel the arrow. If it's airborne, it's lethal.
Unlike a bullet that kills with shock an arrow kills with trama created by the broadhead. The bullet looses energy over the course of distance and will at some point no longer be lethal (although that's a long ways). An arrow retains the ability to penetrate and create the trama as long it is in flight. Most bows will cast a hunting weight arrow with broadhead in the area of 200 yds so the math says that it will kill that far.
Now hitting something at 200 yds on purpose would be quite a feat.
Our sport of trad bowhunting is a close range effort where I have experienced shots from 5 feet to 35 yds. The arrow and broadhead always did it's part if I did mine.
Mike
Come on test yourself, how close can you get before penetration isnt an issue.
Way to many variables to consider in the distance thing.
Arrow penetration is not an issue within my own personal effective range of 25 yards. I test myself all the time.
But that's not the question. I'm just wondering when the kinetic energy of an arrow runs out to the point where it is no longer lethal to game. It's a hypothetical, I personally don't shoot past 25 at game for a number of reasons.
I'll buy that the arrow is lethal for as long as it's in flight.
Slim,
I know its hypothetical. The past few years we had a few threads on this and like I said the variables are abundant. Wind,release,and such are determining factors. With wheels I have shot(at targets) some redulous ranges and the penetration was ok but the accuracy is diminished. With my 70# longbow i have shot targets at long ranges and with the arc they have had a lot less penetration. with that EFOC stuff you may get an arrow with a flat trajectory that can carry the needed energy and force to penetrate effectively above 40 + yards. Even slugs from a shotgun drop after 60 yards.
With a 50# bow I would say past 40 yards would have a loss of penetration not suitably for a clean kill.JMHO
That's the type of opinion I was looking for. Thanks. I appreciate that there are a ton of variables and I know it's all guesstimation.
I was wondering because I read these old archery books and those guys seemed to shoot animals at distances we now consider ridiculous.
Of course, they never seem to worry about wounding either. At least it's not mentioned.
What's EFOC?
I don't know the answer, but I do know this; If you shoot something straight up into the air, when it falls it doesn't come back down with the same velocity. Some complex formula of weight and drag is needed to determine the actual velocity, but for example, a bullet coming straight down will hurt, but isn't really lethal (unless you're unlucky).
An arrow has a point on it, but also has a lot more drag than a bullet.
I think at some distance, depending on how high the arrow must arc, most of the velocity from the bow is lost and the arrow is just falling.
Perhaps it's still lethal as far as it will shoot. I don't know enough about this to know. But, I think we'd find that an arrow shot straight up, wouldn't be consistently lethal. How far we'd have to flatten the arc out before it became so, I have no idea.
EFOC is in the Ashby reports on the main page(I dont partake in those technical advances). And back in the day game had more places to roam and meat was scarce so I feel they took those shots cause they had to try and feed the family. As Fred Bear said if your hungry hunt with a gun.
My dad was an old school bowhunter, and killed a multitude of sheep and goats on Catalina Island in the 60s and 70s at 70+ yards. I believe he shot a 67# Jack Howard Gamemaster most of the time. In about 1982 he killed a good sized moose (70" antlers) at 84 yards. The moose walked 20 yards and fell dead. He hunted with a recurve with sights and a finger-release, and was just a fantastic shot. I don't know much about the mechanics of penetration, nor advocate those types of long shots, but arrows retain a lot of energy. I would be a lot more worried about an arrow with a broadhead shot straight up in the air (when it comes down), than any hunting bullet shot straight up.
All these are good points to consider. Love those stories of old time bowhunters. Your dad must have been quite a guy.
327 yards, 2 feet, and 7 inches.
Don't shoot past that.
Historically, heavy arrows were used by the Europeans at whatever range the arrow would fly. Wars were won using arrows in this way. At that range bodkin points penetrated a lot, including armor in some cases.
I am gonna guess the heads were nowhere near as sharp as what we use.
And west Asian horse warriors used lighter arrows in the same way.
I get a bit worried when we discuss things like "how far", "how light", "how slow" etc in a bow hunting forum, for the single reason that there are newer folks, or not so well versed folks who are really trying to absorb all this information, but who do not yet have the background to discern theory from an absolute approval to use this or do that.
Unlike a bullet that runs out of energy and then, eventually, you have a 180 or less grain projectile that bounces off and just makes you upset, with a sharp arrow of any real (trad) weight, just dropping it ten feet will allow that to penetrate your skin and body.
Do a test. . try it out ( please. . . use a piece of hide or something other than your body. . or your little brothers').
ChuckC
Kill a deer.
Strap it up between a couple trees/posts whatever.
Shoot at it with broadheads from a long way and find out....
I'd like to try it some time...just gotta get that deer first...
Curious- WHY? What difference does it make if you aren't going to do it? Arrows can kill as far as you can shoot them. Pull your bow and angle 45 degrees to straight up. Measure the distance to teh arrow. That's how far.
Kinetic energy hasn't got as much to do with it as momentum. I think you need to get out and hunt something.
I think you're asking the wrong question.
By the very fact that you've selected a normal bow to hunt with, you've handicapped yourself- right?
If you want to see how far you can shoot something with a close range weapon, you're headed in the wrong direction.
Please don't bring up Howard Hill and others who shot game at long distances- we used to shoot hundreds of ducks a day, until we figured out that wasn't too smart.
Ideas, techniques, and mores change with our experience. Those fellows were sailing in uncharted waters, trying to find ways to broaden the use of archery equipment for hunting and taking chances most hunters wouldn't dream of today. Chances with the lives of animals, my friend.
When you wound something, it shakes you to the core- you remember those shots vividly and usually wake in a cold sweat at night when doing so.
It isn't that animals CAN'T be killed at long ranges- they can! But SHOULD that be your question?
Why not use a muzzleloader instead? Or a centerfire rifle if you want to shoot stuff far away?
Let's instead ask the question of ourselves "how close can I get before I shoot this animal?"
Don't shortchange yourself- I agree with Rob Schneider when he says in the Waterboy, "you can do it!"
I hog hunted with a young man last weekend who had never hunted hogs- in fifteen minutes he was hunting as quietly as a mountain lion and in fact stalked up to within 3 or four yards of a sounder of sleeping hogs- THAT'LL TRIP YOUR TRIGGER!
He's said repeatedly that he doesn't shoot over 25 yards. He's just curious, as many of us are, how far an arrow is lethal. Just like you might want to know just what kind of damage an atomic bomb will do - doesn't mean you want to get one and blow something up.
Amen Ray! Amen.
BTW - nice bull in your avatar!
Shoot straight, Shinken
:archer2:
A lot of people have posted here, but have either not read the question or misunderstood it. He is simply wondering at what distance a broadhead arrow would still be lethal. He did not ask about how far he should shoot at game. Not asking about how close to get to game before shooting.
I guess I am amazed by how many times a post is so misread and convoluted by the time several people answer a question that it takes on a whole new meaning not in the least resembling the original question
I like the question but it should be restated to "how far is an arrow lethal" that way people will quit telling you to get closer and quit "moralizing." I woulnd't shoot at anything over 30 yards but it still begs the question doesn't it?
I read somewhere that an arrow has lost 12% of it's speed at 40 yards, don't know if that helps or if it's true either.
Then there's the mythbusters thing where they shot a bullet straigt in the air and learned that a falling bullet doesn't have enough force once it's reached terminal velocity to kill. They did learn that a bullet shot in an ARC will retain enough energy to kill at the end of its travel. I assume an arrow is the same only heavier and sharper.
The english used longbows at Agincourt to kill french knights and their horses hundred of yards away.
Ain't too many deer out there wearing plate armor.
Simple experiment. Drop a sharp broadhead arrow. Do it. Drop it 5 feet into a steak.
Instead of theorizing and rationalizing, just do it. A sharp arrow dropping out of a tree can poke a hole in you. A sharp arrow dropping out of the sky will do no less.
How far away depends soley on how far your bow will send that arrow, that's all.
I read the question. And answered it to the best of my knowledge.
ChuckC
Archery is an "up close" game. You can get an arrow to reach a target a long ways, but the farther you reach the likelihood of you making a clean kill get slimmer. It may take an arrow 1-2 seconds to get out to 100 yards, a deer can move a lot in that time.
Did all of you really read the posted question ?? :readit: :readit:
:bigsmyl: It all depends on how well they are tuned to your bow!!! Even a bad tuned Buck should have some penetration but a Doe just her ears out front , just like a blunt! :archer:
An arrow out of a 50 lb bow will shoot completely through a good size buck at 92 long steps. I know that for a fact because I been there done that before the trad police came along. My heros shot long range and there was a time I did too.
The question is simple and it is direct and it is stated plainly as a hypothetical/. Read it and answer it as it is written and there is nothing wrong or that demands the answer of you should only shoot X amount of distance.
I believe the answer is this. With a razor sharp arrowhead and the arrow mentioned it will effectively kill as long as it is in the air high enough to hit the kill zone.
That is way , way past 40 yards.
God bless you all, Steve
There was a day when deer were not as plentiful, and guys had to take advantage of whatever shots they could. I can relate; I have very few deer to shoot at where I hunt, and if I want to take one home, I have to capitalize on my opportunities. Some guys nowadays see several deer every day, all season; in 4 months, I saw about 8-10, most of which were over 100 yards away and of course were unshootable.
I have wounded 2 deer in my lifetime, in about 10 years of hunting them. I hate the thought of wounding animals due to bad shots. But I would take a long shot if I felt good about the situation. And that makes me want to understand penetration all the more. (Yes, I read the question :-) )
The question is hypothetical, but what if a guy could shoot accurately out to 70 yards, and could shoot a buck lying in a cleared cornfield? That exact situation happened to me about 5 years ago. The buck -- a monster who was all tired out, from "servicing" a doe -- was lying down, looking the other way, in the middle of the open field. If I could have shot that far, you can bet I would have (but I did not shoot). And I've often wondered, "Just how far would that arrow have penetrated that critter?"
okay my two pennies. First, intresting question and 2nd alot of good discussion. Myself, I believe you are only limited to the cast of which your bow will perform. A guy on here said a true statement, "I know when you shoot an arrow straight up it doesn't come down as quick". Obvious, yes, and so true. And "Bullet kills, with shock, arrow with hemoragge, cuts". So, yes at distance you will loose "energy", and the flight will slow, to the point where GRAVITY (belive 32#) pulls the arrow back down. So you will have an razor sharp blade coming down at a minimum of 32# (shoot a bow 32# and see penatration pretty good). Now, take in, that once that RAZOR sharp blade comes into contact with tissue/body, the weight of the arrow will assist in the penatration, untill stopped by a hard mass (even then dumps energy as a bullet does) or cuts till out of energy. Will our "typical" tackle today, I belive you could CAST arrow to 200, accuracy of course is issue as alot more mass for wind to push around. Two finaly things, One, the "old timer" bowhunters would rate the arrow performance and bow with casting or shooting at far distance, then select the groups of arrows to hunt with. Two, The old WAR Bow's was taller than a man and drew 150# (I belive, someone on here knows more than I on this) and shot a huge shaft to get the arrow at least half way (gravity on the other half) to also keep mass weight for cutting threw armor. Just my humble opinion. Semper Fi
Archie, yup my question was theoretical. But, like you, I want to know about these things because you never know when an exceptional situation presents itself.
My thought was, what happens if a poorly hit animal is 60 yards ahead? Is it then unethical to try to finish the deal by taking the long shot, especially if a hit at that range is capable of doing it?
Toddster, you humble opinion makes sense to me.
QuoteOriginally posted by Slim:
Archie, yup my question was theoretical. But, like you, I want to know about these things because you never know when an exceptional situation presents itself.
My thought was, what happens if a poorly hit animal is 60 yards ahead? Is it then unethical to try to finish the deal by taking the long shot, especially if a hit at that range is capable of doing it?
Toddster, you humble opinion makes sense to me.
My thoughts on this is that once an animal is hit that the ethical thing to do is kill it. I take any shot I can get after an animal is wounded.
My son killed a bull elk from right at 100 yards that we had tracked all day long after it got out of its bed and started to take off again.
He reamed it out with a Hart Mountain Heart shot and it went down instantly. At that range the arrow penetrated the intestines, stomach , and stopped just short of exiting the front.
I killed a large black bear that got up after I had left it two hours after a good chest shot and it ended up with 14 holes in it. Seven arrows and each one an exit. These were from 20 to 60 or so yards and a couple were arrows that had penetrated, were picked up and reshot. I was shooting it every time I could get an arrow into it and convinced that it was going to kill me instead of me killing it.
God bless you all, Steve
God bless you all, Steve
Wow. Some folks need to revisit their reading interpretation classes and get off the high horse. A question means thought was involved. Thought is a good thing. Kudos to the OP. Non-kudos to the old farts.
accuracy will become an issue long before penetration
Howard Hill wrote that he shot and killed a mule deer from 185 yards. That's an amazing hit from such a distance, and nothing I would ever try, but it shows the lethality of a sharp broadhead, as well as Howard's skill, even though he was probably using an exceptionally heavy-poundage (and less efficient) bow than most of us use today.
Allan
Slim....
The History books will give you the answer.
For 150 yrs the longbow was the king of weapons on the battle field.
Untold numbers of people killed, most out to 200-400 yds.
So, I would assume the arrow will be deadly untill it hits something....
Keep in mind also, most war arrows where around 1500 grains....
Slim go to a butcher buy yourself a nice 150 Lb. pig take it out and shoot it at differant distances and see how it goes, and then have a BBQ....
And I thought it was a good question....
Seems to me the answer has been given, as long as the arrow is in the air, it is lethal. I read every post before making mine, wish others would do the same. (rolling my eyes)........
I think I might send this in to mythbusters.
Wow! It's as if it's a crime to ask an honest question around here.
I'm pretty sure I was clear with my personal hunting ethics and the reason for my question right from the start.
Thanks to everyone who actually read the question and tried to answer it. A lot of good information came out of that that I hadn't considered.
As for the other guys, who feel they have to lecture me on ethics -- really?
Look, I've been hunting for close to 40 years. I'm as ethical as they come. Never shoot too far. Always pass up on iffy shots. Always get as close as I can. Have recovered every big game animal I ever shot at -- and there have been many.
I was just asking a question to satiate my curiosity. I thought that this was the purpose of forums like this. To learn from the experiences of others.
I'm beginning to reconsider. Now, I'm beginning to think that some people just use these forums to make themselves feel superior.
And that's not very useful to me....
Once again, thanks to those who read the question and provided thoughtful answers. You are the reason I'll continue posting questions.
Steve
Now I know why you have only 36 post's scince the begining of this site. :rolleyes: :saywhat:
Sorry, got a little frustrated with the insinuations of poor ethics, just because I asked a question.
This is a great site -- and we all love the same thing or we wouldn't be here-- but boy do some people love getting up on a pulpit.
Then again, I should probably relax a bit too...
QuoteOriginally posted by mike g:
Slim....
The History books will give you the answer.
For 150 yrs the longbow was the king of weapons on the battle field.
Untold numbers of people killed, most out to 200-400 yds.
So, I would assume the arrow will be deadly untill it hits something....
Keep in mind also, most war arrows where around 1500 grains....
Slim go to a butcher buy yourself a nice 150 Lb. pig take it out and shoot it at differant distances and see how it goes, and then have a BBQ....
And I thought it was a good question....
Great answer.
Can't believe all the people who bypassed the intent of the question and started into the maximum ethical distance rhetoric. :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:
That is not what the original question was about. From the outset the question was about the distance that an arrow can travel and still maintain lethal energy.
I think just about all of us here realize the real essence to the game is seeing how close we can get and the vast majority fall off at 20 yards or less more out of ethics than ability.
But I think in the spirit of the question as it was asked, it was answered several times: if that hunting-weight arrow has a well sharpened and trad-weight broadhead upfront and if it is still in the air, and if it doesn't center a shoulder ... it's lethal.
Even if you drop it out of an airplane at 20,000 ft., I think a cedar arrow with a scary sharp 225 gr grizzly up front would be much more of a hazard than an annoyance.
Pat, I'm good with that and several other answers posed. For the most part, I found the viewpoints interesting and informative.
I'm relatively new to this forum and didn't know I was opening up a can of worms with the question as it was posed.
QuoteOriginally posted by PaddyMac:
Even if you drop it out of an airplane at 20,000 ft., I think a cedar arrow with a scary sharp 225 gr grizzly up front would be much more of a hazard than an annoyance.
I got some news for you. It won't take anywhere close to 20,000 feet.
I suggest that those that doubt this should shoot a broadhead tipped arrow (sharp or not) straight into the air. Watch as it goes straight up, come to a complete stop, reverse it's course, and start heading back to earth.
Now, stand directly underneath it.
The rest of us will discuss it's lethality... at your funeral.
:wavey:
Dude (et al) back up a bit. We have been on line for quite some time now and we have had all kinds of questions. Slim, you have been here longer than I have. As I said in my first response, I am not so worried about you (Slim)as I am of others that are new, that are not very well versed. Every time we say " yup 37 pounds is plenty to shoot a water buffalo with" (theoretically) they believe it and it becomes gospel. We as a group need to be very careful and responsible with what we say. (and yes. . you DID say it was a theoretical question, we saw that).
A question right on back. . if nobody is actually thinking of shooting that far. . .
why does it matter ?
ChuckC.
Hey Chuck,
I asked out of curiosity. I want to know as much as I can about this stuff. That's why it matters to me. That's why I ask questions.
If I know my bow is lethal to 200 yards it might make me think twice about shooting geese towards a farmyard or cattle, for instance.
Knowledge is never useless. Even the trivial facts help you put things in context.
On another point, I respectfully disagree with you on your assessment of new members. I doubt they just buy everything without critical thought. They're here to be educated and they look around. I suspect most that are into traditional archery have already figured out the basic stuff -- they come here to get the nuances and confirm what they know.
Oh, and to feel part of a community -- a feeling they won't get if we keep talking down to them.
I agree we should be careful that our information is correct, but I don't think we should stop discussing theoretical stuff because we think they are too new to figure it out. If anything, these questions help answer some of theirs.... Or encourage them to ask others.
My two cents.
Slim, then simply asking it that way would have alleviated much of the spirited banter. And believe me or not, folks DON'T know and they do take things to heart. I see this all the time in Hunter Ed classes.
Your topic name sure sounds like extreme deer hunting in the making. Maybe that got things on the wrong foot.
As was answered several times, do it. Shoot your bow in a very large field where you know it is safe. However far the arrows go, that there is the basic range. If a sharp broadhead falls out of the sky and hits a living critter. . it could be lethal, whatever the range. edited to add. . as a second thought, even if it wasn't lethal, do we really want to take a chance of having the farmers cow, or child wearing a non-lethal, but none the less firmly implanted arrow in their body ?
I don't believe anybody here is trying to be critical of you or chastise you or even thinks badly of you. It is certainly not a personal response. We are trying our best to be good neighbors and answer your question.
ChuckC
Nothing at all wrong with Slim's question/topic. It's taken a lot of twists and turns, but I took it as a way to read some banter between penetration at 15 yards and penetration at, say 75 yards.
It's good to read a lot of different responses, and I don't think any newbies got the wrong impression of the ethical questions and risks of long shots, as such was clarified by several different folks.
Hey Chuck,
I've done all that. I'm not new to this.
I have my opinions but I was looking for input and to hear other experiences.
As for how I asked it, I thought it was a fairly straight forward question. Still do.
I don't believe anyone thinks badly of me either. Heck, it was just a question.
Which is why I figure I shouldn't have to defend why I asked it.....
I know this does not conclude anything; but just to satisfy my own curiosity I shot 2 absolutely identical 650 gn arrows into fresh foam. One from 4 yards and the second from 25 yds. (can't get farther back in my yard set up).
I marked both with a sharpie and pulled them out-not a 1/16" difference between them-not scientific but satisfied my curiosity since my hunting shots are mostly from a few yards out to maybe 30.
I would say 30 yards with either a 2 blade head or 3 blade head. I'm basing this off my new Fedora, 52# and shooting 525 and 585 grain arrows. I could push the distance to 40 but 30 yds would be more effective.
Today's bows are much more efficient than those I started with back in the late 60's.
Well, I'm skeptical, so I submitted this question to Mythbusters.
I have no doubt that some people were killed from 200-400 yards back in the day with english longbows. But, how consistently? AND they were using arrows that weighed 3 times what our arrows weigh. I think that will make a huge difference.
Somebody with a tall building, put a foam target under your window and drop an arrow down onto it. I'm curious. I don't think you're going to get a lot of penetration.
try dropping an arrow with broadhead from 3 feet onto some plywood and it'll stick. I wonder what it would be like from a couple hundred feet?
QuoteI wonder what it would be like from a couple hundred feet? [/QB]
Stick a little deeper. There is a height at which something will reach maximum speed when falling and no matter how much higher you go, it still falls at the same rate. I don't know what that height is for an arrow, but it's probably not as high as you might think.
Is maximum velocity 32 feet per second?
QuoteOriginally posted by lpcjon2:
Is maximum velocity 32 feet per second?
:biglaugh: Probably not.
As I've said, I really don't know any of the answers to these questions. I'm just guessing.
"An object falling toward the surface of the Earth will fall 9.81 meters (or 32.18 feet) per second faster every second (an acceleration of 9.81 m/s² or 32.18 ft/s²)."
This was from Wikipedia, I was kinda close
As I recall grade 10 physics it can hit a max velocity of 125' per sec. easily enough to be fatal.
holy crap. I avoided this thread since it was first posted because I knew it would be a mine-field. Today, I got bored and read it, and I was right. It is a complete booby trap.
Everyone please take a deep breath. Closed bow-season has everyone on edge and looking for an argument about the morals of this and that. The man asked a pretty simple question and I think the answer is pretty simple. An arrow can be deadly for as far as the arrow will fly. Period. Historical accounts indicate this.
For the newbies, I assume you understand that this is a theoretical discussion, but in case you don't, launching arrows at game from 200 yards is completely unethical, ineffective, and stupid because you won't hit anything.
Now, I like 5.5" feathers, so my maximum effective killing range may be a little less than some others. My goal has always been to have the effective accuracy wise distance as my arrow is killing wise. Another 200 or so yards and I will have it.
Maybe I can help, in 1974 I started college as a Physics major until I found out just how dumb I really was.
Generally speaking an object will fall at 9.8 meters/sec. squared.
If you shoot an arrow into the air and it takes 5 seconds to fall from it highest point, this formula does not take into account any forward momentum just the force of gravity.
Say the arrow falls for 5 seconds @ 9.8 meters per second squared which means the object hits the ground at 49 meters per second.
Converting meters/sec to feet/sec. 49 meters/sec is equal to 160.7612/ feet per second which is plenty fast enough to pass through a deer.
If I remember correctly you should also add the velocity of the object at apogee (highest point). Possibly 150'/sec on a 45 degree shot.
Now if I have the 5 second falling time & the 150'/second current velocity correct you have an arrow traveling at 310'/second.
More than enough to pass through almost anything living.
Don't bet the farm on this math. As Kenny is fond of saying... "Your mileage may vary"
Have a nice day
Ooops, I'm sorry, I forgot to let everyone know they should not shoot an arrow into the air in hopes that a deer will walk under it 5 seconds later.
QuoteOriginally posted by lpcjon2:
"An object falling toward the surface of the Earth will fall 9.81 meters (or 32.18 feet) per second faster every second (an acceleration of 9.81 m/s² or 32.18 ft/s²)."
This was from Wikipedia, I was kinda close
This is only true in a vacuum though. It doesn't take drag into account.
Don't forget to take the coriolis effect into account.
You know, when I opened this thread I thought I was asking a simple question.... :knothead:
Play the lottery tonight, you just might hit it :biglaugh:
Never been that lucky JW...
Slim, your question was answered in the very first post. I don't know why there are 6 pages of post on your simple question :dunno:
Of course, I just brought it back up for another round :D
Wow I feel sorry for you Slim. The same thing happened to me on the topic of my bow
I'm calling it a learning experience. But,you know, there were a lot of good answers in all that too.
Yea, your right about that. But, one does wish that those who seamingly try to hyjack a thread to thier own purpose or ideas about what they think are the rights and wrongs of things would start thier own threads on thier subjects. Just seams to me that that would be more respectful too all of us.
Have a great day Ric
So, what is the answer ? How far can you shoot a deer before penetration becomes an issue ?
ChuckC
Read the posts Chuck and make your own mind up. I'm done with this one.
QuoteOriginally posted by Slasher:
QuoteOriginally posted by Slim:
[qb]
But I am sure the trad-police correct answer is no more than 20-25 yds :knothead: [/b]
Hate to say I told you so... :knothead:
To answer the OP directly; Optimum angle to launch a projectile for max range is 45 degrees assuming a level playing field, no wind scenario. So given the sin cos, of the earths rotation, and Coriolis effect based upon your direction of launch and the latitude of the location of the said launch, you can plainly see that depending on shaft diameter, max spin rate imparted by the fetching and the external drag coefficient of the said projectile, the velocity in fps, weight of projectile and the particular internal ballistic coefficient , you can PLAINLY SEE.......it depends.
Sorry couldn't resist. Don't hate me!
QuoteOriginally posted by MT Longbow:
To answer the OP directly; Optimum angle to launch a projectile for max range is 45 degrees assuming a level playing field, no wind scenario. So given the sin cos, of the earths rotation, and Coriolis effect based upon your direction of launch and the latitude of the location of the said launch, you can plainly see that depending on shaft diameter, max spin rate imparted by the fetching and the external drag coefficient of the said projectile, the velocity in fps, weight of projectile and the particular internal ballistic coefficient , you can PLAINLY SEE.......it depends.
Sorry couldn't resist. Don't hate me!
It's very simple. Scissors cuts paper, paper covers rock, rock crushes lizard, lizard poisons Spock, Spock smashes scissors, scissors decapitates lizard, lizard eats paper, paper disproves Spock, Spock vaporizes rock, and—as it always has—rock crushes scissors
@Slim- at least you got your post count up some:)
QuoteOriginally posted by ChuckC:
So, what is the answer ? How far can you shoot a deer before penetration becomes an issue ?
ChuckC
As far as the bow can shoot. If the arrow is in the air, it's lethal. Plain and simple.
QuoteOriginally posted by Turkeys Fear Me:
QuoteOriginally posted by ChuckC:
So, what is the answer ? How far can you shoot a deer before penetration becomes an issue ?
ChuckC
As far as the bow can shoot. If the arrow is in the air, it's lethal. Plain and simple. [/b]
Just don't use flu flu's !
And what's more, if you recall Howard Hill had a confirmed kill on an Elk at 185 yards. It took 3 shots , under over and then into , but that elk died. So as you can see, on the more serious note , I'll quit joking around, like the other guys said , really , if it's in the air, and not a draggy arrow like a flu flu, then given enough arrow weight a really long shot is still plenty deadly.
How does that advertisement go? :confused: :confused: Oh yea "Let it go Louie"
You guys don't get so upset. I find it good, interesting discussion, other than the people who turn it into how far you SHOULD shoot rather than how far you CAN shoot.
Somebody with a big block of foam, a 200 yard field, and some time needs to go do some penetration tests for us.
"I" think penetration is going to be pretty minimal at the end of a bow's range unless you're shooting a very, very heavy arrow. But that's just my guess.
Ok, another late to the party because I saw a landmined field ahead of me. It was a great question, because it was not about how far he could push his limits, but a thought experiment. That is how we have advanced as far as we have as a species. Imagine if the first guy who thought of the bow had posted a question on the atlatl forum about sending a shorter lighter spear with a bent stick and string. Any one who is here to learn through reading is taking some time to think. As teacher I can tell you that only a small percentage choose to learn by reading. Unlike hunter ed classes where they are made to go. I have enjoyed the read, even the controversy. Thanks for posting it.
Also late to the party. And a litte tongue-in-cheek. Based on a lot of posts here, it would seem that it doesn't matter. If you have a sharp broadhead, and put the arrow in the perfect spot, then everything will be OK, out to the range of your bow.
But, if you don't put the arrow in the perfect spot (which no one ever does, of course), then ...
A compound friend of mine years back tried to figure out the same thing with very light and short carbon arrows. He practiced at his long shots until he had some confidence, then bought a chrono from a friend. He backed off the measured distance of his bottom pin and shot to see how much speed the the arrow still had in it so he could decipher how much energy it had. He found that he had enough energy to totally destroy his chronograph with just one shot. He did have the right idea, how much speed did the arrow retain on long shots. I think the answer is about as far as a hunting arrow will fly is enough for deer.
QuoteOriginally posted by pavan:
A compound friend of mine years back tried to figure out the same thing with very light and short carbon arrows. He practiced at his long shots until he had some confidence, then bought a chrono from a friend. He backed off the measured distance of his bottom pin and shot to see how much speed the the arrow still had in it so he could decipher how much energy it had. He found that he had enough energy to totally destroy his chronograph with just one shot. He did have the right idea, how much speed did the arrow retain on long shots. I think the answer is about as far as a hunting arrow will fly is enough for deer.
Now thats funny!
'Ya think the atlatl guys figured the bow guys were nuts for shooting arrows that were so much lighter and way faster? I'll bet they figured we would never get enough penetration and 100 fps was too fast to be accurate!? :bigsmyl: