Was wondering why in the classifieds you can find heavy longbows but rarely heavy recurves.
i dont know. i would rather shoot a longer heavy bow and recurves tend to be a little shorter. i dont know
For me it is alot easier to pull a longbow than a shorter recurve. I think it is because of the low wrist grip and more limb length which makes it easier to pull. I am not a phyics expert but I would call it the law of leverage.
I think that most folks tend to start with recurves... So most longbows are mostly preferred by those who've been shooting a while and have settled on a weight they are comfy with (less overbowing ) and longbows tend to be quiet enough that folks shooting LB are looking for a silent 20yd dealer of death
I think rhere is a piece if truth in each answer.Thanks
Some folks have the idea that longbows are so inefficient that you need heavy weight to equal recurves of lesser draw weight.
Howard Hill is part of the answer, longbow shooting style, low grip, pull through release, swing shooting may be another part. Of course uncle Fred shot 70# plus recurves well into his 70s.
QuoteOriginally posted by David Mitchell:
Some folks have the idea that longbows are so inefficient that you need heavy weight to equal recurves of lesser draw weight.
Exactly!
I was guilty of that myself at one time. I figured if my recurve was 60# then I better get a 65# longbow. I shot the thing like crap too. Now both my recurves and longbows are in the mid 40's and I never shot better.
QuoteOriginally posted by Red Beastmaster:
QuoteOriginally posted by David Mitchell:
Some folks have the idea that longbows are so inefficient that you need heavy weight to equal recurves of lesser draw weight.
Exactly!
I was guilty of that myself at one time. I figured if my recurve was 60# then I better get a 65# longbow. I shot the thing like crap too. Now both my recurves and longbows are in the mid 40's and I never shot better. [/b]
They sell the heavy ones and keep and shoot the light ones.
Ill give a differant answer.... "EGO"
If I could find a heavy recurve, I'd buy it. In fact, I did. My 82# Ballistic is awesome. May John Fazio rest in peace.
If you pay close attention to the classifieds, heavy recurves sell fast. Why? Hmmm?
Perhaps fewer are made?
Ask a current bowyer how heavy he will make one. They usually stop around 65#, and no more. It's like pulling teeth to get a new one made over 65#.
I am not a big fan of Mike G's EGO comment. Heavy longbow shooters like, Leo Markert, Justin Newell, Frank Dohman and many others are humble guys. We just happen to be strong, either naturally or by fitness.
We also enjoy a "clean release", flat cast, etc that heavy bows offer.
Also, heavy bow shooters don't care whether other folks shoot heavy or light weight bows. So, why do the light weight bow guys care why we shoot heavy?
Matt
heavy recurves break much more easily than heavy longbows so ask to your bowyer if he wants (dares) to make to you a 100 pounds recurve just for seeing his answer !
for having both of them, I can certify to you than heavy recurves (I speak about 100# bows) are much more easy to draw than straight longbows of the same poundage.
QuoteOriginally posted by Raging Water:
If I could find a heavy recurve, I'd buy it.
If you pay close attention to the classifieds, heavy recurves sell fast. Why? Hmmm?
Perhaps fewer are made?
I am not a big fan of Mike G's EGO comment. Heavy longbow shooters like, Leo Markert, Justin Newell, Frank Dohman and many others are humble guys. We just happen to be strong, either naturally or by fitness.
We also enjoy a "clean release", flat cast, etc that heavy bows offer.
Also, heavy bow shooters don't care whether other folks shoot heavy or light weight bows. So, why do the light weight bow guys care why we shoot heavy?
Matt
So if you are interested my 90#@28 hexv bd is always available ! before finding another bow which is so smooth to draw, so silentfull, so steady and 197@9gpp you can weak up early :jumper: !
here shot at 31" (97#), 2 days ago: clic (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34723240/2-BD%2097%23%4031.wmv)
Fourdarme,
Thanks, but I have a 95# Border BD.
Matt
Matt ...what limbs?
Hex 4.
QuoteOriginally posted by mike g:
Ill give a differant answer.... "EGO"
I will give you another answer: ability...some can, other can't and never can do it...but it is always so fun to see what are the given reasons by those who can't and how they speak about those who can...if you like shooting light bows, shoot them and enjoy but don't blame those who, just like other people, like to do exactly the same things but with their heavy bows....all the rest is between themselves and their doctor :goldtooth:
Some DO have ego indeed!
At the range here on Sunday, EVERY Sunday there's a man who shoots a 90+ pound longbow. He mostly talks to everyone about shooting it, at least all newcomers for sure. I stopped going on Sundays since every SINGLE time he sees me he'll scream "Hey, wanna shoot a man's bow?" across the field. Or "Wanna try it? It's 100#... if you can handle it". This has gone on for at least a year.
Even though he draws it probably 15" so it's more like 65#.
And I"M a LEFTY shooter and he knows it.
There are others at the range who have had a similar experience and come on Saturdays only.
QuoteOriginally posted by trad_in_cali:
Some DO have ego indeed!
At the range here on Sunday, EVERY Sunday there's a man who shoots a 90+ pound longbow. He mostly talks to everyone about shooting it, at least all newcomers for sure. I stopped going on Sundays since every SINGLE time he sees me he'll scream "Hey, wanna shoot a man's bow?" across the field. Or "Wanna try it? It's 100#... if you can handle it". This has gone on for at least a year.
Even though he draws it probably 15" so it's more like 65#.
And I"M a LEFTY shooter and he knows it.
There are others at the range who have had a similar experience and come on Saturdays only.
so...then it makes an idiot of more but with a 90# bow...you have idiots with 45# bows and idiots with 90#...just like everywhere in the life: at work, at church, at cinema, in the cars and everywhere...knowing that often we are also, ourselves, the idiot of someone else...but at the end idiots are idiots whatever they have in hand, in head or between the legs.
Well said foudarme. :thumbsup:
Tell the loudmouth that it's only 100 pounds if he draws it to a full 28 inches, and tell him you'd REALLY like to see him do that, AND hit yon target twice.
Tell him that you'd be glad to help by marking his arrow "right here" with a pen so you can all see him pull it to the mark before releasing at yon target.
He might be a little quieter the next weekend. Either that or he will give you a good show. Either way, it's going to be fun to watch.
Nothing wrong with a guy shooting a heavy bow, as long as he can do it well.
I shoot in the 65 to 75 range, not as heavy as some but heavy by a lot of standards, reason being, because i can, and i enjoy it. I hold nothing against those who shoot more or less poundage than i do. At this point I weigh in at a whopping 150 pounds and am in good physical shape,and shoot these weights well,but i know there will be a time when ill have to back down, but till then ill enjoy shooting my moderate heavies. Im sure there are some with ego issues out there, such as the fella trad_in_cali referred to, but they are far and few between. I have never made an issue about what poundage i shoot, and only advocate that a body shoot what they like and shoot it well, we owe it to the game we hunt. If asked what poundage i shoot, i will gladly tell, and if asked to shoot my gear ,i will gladly hand it over so that a fella can try it, but never have i insinuated someone was a whimp, or shoots a girly bow because their physical capabilities did not allow them to shoot the heavies, or moderate heavies. Shoot what works for you, and shoot it well, and enjoy the gift of the outdoors that God has given us. Life is to short and precious to worry about what others think about a persons choices in your equipment. :archer2:
My heaviest bow so far is a 70 pound Martin Hatfield and though I am still strugling with consistency and accuracy I DO enjoy the flat trajectory of the arrow in longer distances.Having said that I don't think I am able to go more than that and when I buy another bow in that poundage it will be a longbow.I traded recently my 60 pound recurve for a 59 pound longbow and the latter just feels easier to pull(and I don't think it is the 1 pound difference).
Now I consider a heavy bow anything above 60 but that's personal.
Oh, indeed: there's all kinds indeed. But 99% of shooters are really friendly.
And yes, he can't hit the same 9" plate twice in a row.
It's all fun, especially since we have 10 lanes and I can shoot all the way at the last one, some 150 yds. away if needed.
Got another one for ya.
Call Big Jim and ask Big Jim if it is his EGO that makes him build his "personal bows" at 80# or more?
Curious to what Big Jim would tell ya?
Matt
Ego doesn't fling heavy arrows with authority. Heavy bows do! I know lighter bows are effective but I like having a heavy bow for when everything doesn't go as perfectly as I had planned. Ego does not figure into the equation, humanely dispatching an animal does.
One other thought, I will admit that I am proud of the additional discipline required to maintain my ability to shoot heavy bows and to shoot them accurately. The wonderful side effect for me, I shoot the heavier bows more accurately than I did my lower weight bows.
Those that claim 'ego' are mostly just green with 'envy'.
I don't understand why it should bother someone no mater what bow they shoot, as long at they are accurate with it. Folks with ego problems don't need a heavy bow to portray that. Kinda like blaming the fork for making Rosy O'Donald fat. Yes, some folks that shoot heavy bows do it as a way to express their ego, and its pretty obvious.
I have friends that shoot lighter than me...and I don't think they are wimps....I have friends that shoot heavier than me, and I don't think they have an ego.
I also find it interesting that folks that shoot heavier bows don't go on light bow threads and pass out labels to the shooters like has happened here.
Yes, there are exceptions on BOTH sides....I know a couple of light weight bow shooters with PLENTY of ego that is also obvious. Bottom line, painting everyone with a broad brush usually isn't a good thing.
I knew my reply would get some attention.
Now dont everyone take my reply wrong, I based it on a quote from Mr Hill that I read in one of his books....
I personaly dont care what poundage anyone uses....As long as they can handle it and be effecent with it....
Heck I only use a 49-52 pound range, so I guess Im in the middle....
Shoots out here average 84 shots....You need to be able to shoot good on no one and no 42....
You guys that can handle a 90# bow, more power to ya....
If I offended anyone....Sorry..!!
The heavyest bow I pulled to my 29" draw was 96#
And I did not want to do it again....I picked this HH bow up off of Bill Prices table and drew it to my 29" let it down slow set the bow down....And told Mr Price, that bow was a little stiff, he smiled and told me how stiff it was....
That my friends is my experince with a Hvy Bow....
I'll pass on the ego discussion and chime in based on my experiences spec'ing, buying, tuning, and shooting the heavy longbow versus the heavy recurve. If you want to see it from beginning to now look over in the Dark Continent.
First off the heavy recurve is harder to get an arrow for than a longbow. With a mildly efficient one requiring 5 to 13 pounds spine above the draw weight. I've only ever shot carbons and there are only three shafts I know of that will meet spine and GPP requirements and all are costly.
Trying to get anyone to make you a 100# bow is a search as none but the war bow makers seem to offer it as a standard option. Nate Steele at Bama Bows makes a great longbow but would not make me a recurve no matter how much I asked. JD Lund at Whisperstik Bows will do it, but doesn't quite have making weight down to a science and will tell you he may miss hit or low. That said, my Mojostik is a shooter like no other even at 100#@29".
You can take my word for it I am drawing it to that length(I should make a video) or you can come and shoot with me whenever you're in town. Mike g, please consider yourself warmly invited. I'd like to discuss bows with you and shoot various weights. I'm not picky, bring what you have and it'll be a good time. I will warn you: I'll get very excited about good shots from any draw weight, yours or mine.
I find my recurve is heavier to draw initially, but easier from 90 to 100. The longbow is easy in the beginning, but a noticeable effort from 95 to 105. I use these weights because that are the draw weights from 27" to 29" on each bow.
Like Steve Angell, I discovered the discipline to shoot well in heavy draw, but I'll go further and say I discovered how to tune a bow well there also. The reason was simple: I didn't have the strength to pull it five hundred times in a session so I'd better make it count and the arrows were expensive so I better get them flying straight or it's gonna be a long day looking and a short day shooting.
I hope everybody has a great day and remembers to show your bow some love today.
Thanks for the comback Mike....I probably was a bit harsh and I shouldn't have been.
There is also a need for heavy bows for some animals and I am certainly all for that.
:campfire:
I used to be able to shoot a 90-100# bow,not anymore! I'm just getting back into shooting and my 65# bows feel heavy to me now. I'm shooting everyday and working out with weights too. My goal is to get back up to around 75# longbows.I'm sure I'll do it. I like the heavier bows for their flat cast with heavy arrows.Heavy arrows and a 40 pound bow just don't work for me.I get a much better release with the heavy bows as well.I've got alot of respect for the guys who can shoot the heavy(100#) longbows accurately,it takes alot of work and time.(or you can just be a beast like Matt,look at his picture!a little green body paint and I can get you a job on a tv show!) Just Kiddin' with ya Matt,I'm sure you put a ton of work into it.
The question was, why so many heavy bows for sale?
The answer is that heavier bows require more work to shoot well. Do folks buy bows heavier than they can reasonably shoot? You betcha they do. I would bet that realistic bow weight is the most common topic of discussion for a bowyer.
That doesn't take anything away from Mike or the others who like to shoot heavy bows. The fact is, most guys aren't in a position to make a heavy bow work for them, so they sell 'em.
The good new is, most of those can be reworked to the kind of weights most of us are looking for. ;)
I shot longbows between 70-80# pretty easily, but I have three reasons for not shooting heavy recurve
1. None are available especially left-hand models
2. I'm not rich and can't afford those doubled up shafts that you pretty much need for center cut heavy bows
3. I can only string a heavy bow with the step-through method. This is easy with a hill style/mild Rd bow, bad for and painful to use with a recurve
Jeff...actually the question was ...why so many LONGBOWS for sale.
Thanks for the invitation Forest.But I am afraid I wont be in "town " soon..Hopefully you ll be in Howard Hill shoot in AL. end of May.
And Yes,the question was why more heavy longbows than recurves.So far it summes up to this:
1.more people start traditional archery with a recurve and they continue later on with longbows(and most of them of course want to try something heavier).Later on realizing they can't handle the weight they sell their heavy longbows for something lighter.
2.Bowyers don't make heavy recurves(say more than 65).
3.Is somehow "easier" to pull heavy longbows than recurves.
4.I will add something of my own.Many people here are well..ol timers.Longbow die hards.Maybe with age they want to drop a few pounds.(no offence guys,just a theory!)
Yeah, let's get off the ego thing. Some guys like heavy bows, and some guys like lighter bows. It is pretty much that simple, and in no way reflects a likelihood of a character flaw. As Terry said, ego can express itself without regard to an archer's choice of draw weight.
I like shooting moderately heavy bows (65#) but don't feel any better than a guy that shoots 45#. In fact, in my organization many, probably most, can outshoot me whether drawing lighter or heavier, but that's O.K.
Please don't think I am "telling off" anybody as I sure don't intend to do so. Remember guys, as serious as we may be in bowhunting, we are still all "going outside to play", and that's the way it should always be - each person doing archery the way he likes it.
However, I have sometimes wondered why I don't see as many heavy recurves, so the discussion is very interesting to me.
QuoteOriginally posted by el greco:
Thanks for the invitation Forrest. But I am afraid I wont be in "town " soon..Hopefully you ll be in Howard Hill shoot in AL. end of May.
I'm happy as a clam that somebody considered my invitation. That is why I like this place: good natured people. I'm afraid that work will keep me out of the Hill shoot. :(
CCannon:
1. Whisperstik will make you a very nice heavy recurve all you have to do is ask.
2. There are numerous stringers that will aid you in stringing the big bows with ease. I prefer a beefed up version of the Neet stringer as it's very efficient. I believe as does Mr. Imler that most any man can work up to a heavier bow than they ever imagined.
3. As for shafts please see the Dark Continent Subforum and I believe your view may change. I know of one shaft offhand that will work and will not break your bank: PSE Black Mamba.
"The factor of physical exercise is important in field archery, so why not get the most out of it."-Tom Imler, Jr., "Use Heavy Bows,"
Ye Sylvan Archer, December 1942. Link to the full article to ensure I did not take it out of context. (http://tmuss.tripod.com/shotfrompast/imler.htm)
In light of reading this article for the second time now I have become more affirmed in my choice of tackle as both an exercise medium and a harvest tool. This is how I have always seen the bow and it has become clearer to me that not everyone shares that point of view. It takes more than two sharp edges to make an arrowhead, we need a middle too.
To get back to the post that I digressed from:
Heavy bows tend most often to be internally traded within the community of heavy shooters. The heavy recurve that lured me into the community was traded like this. If I were ever to liquidate mine I would prefer to do it that way. I see them as tools and toys not something that should prematurely become a conversation piece. I hope my grandchildren will aspire to grow into play with the big bows as I did the toys of my grandfathers.
Per Forrest,
"Heavy bows tend most often to be internally traded within the community of heavy shooters. The heavy recurve that lured me into the community was traded like this. If I were ever to liquidate mine I would prefer to do it that way"
This is very true. All my heavy bows are either going to or were bought from the usual suspects.
Also, Forrest is correct. It is very, very hard to get a "current" bowyer to make a Recurve over 65#.
One other thing to concider. I had a 90# Damon Howatt Recurve. Nice bow and well made. But, it had a higher wrist than my longbows. I just never felt comfortable with that Recurve Grip.
So, at heavy draw weights, I wonder if other heavy bow shooters may have similar grip issues. Yes? No?
Matt
Matt,
I believe it is a tall order to shoot a high wrist grip in a heavy weight bow. In my somewhat limited experience I have found it sufficiently difficult to keep shots on line with a low wrist grip. My guess is that it would require greater strength to shoot the same weight in a high wrist grip due to the offset of the form triangle. Specifically the necessary drop of the bow arm from the sight line to achieve desired arrow impact. My speculation is that this takes the bone to bone alignment out of play and forces the resistance to come from the bow arm muscles alone requiring a marked increase in effort and stress on the archer. If one were to shoot three under instead of split with a high wrist grip perhaps the increase in required strength would not be as great as the rear of the sighting plane would be slightly elevated as well and the rear hand would be more in line with the forward hand. I have no experience with this in traditional gear, but I shake like a leaf when trying to hold a whizbang compound at full draw due to the difference in form required to put the sights on target. All my traditional stuff has been and will continue to be low wrist in recurve and longbow. The grips I use are bare wood and both well fitted to my hand as I apparently share similar hand width to JD and Nate.
Best Regards,
Forrest
When Bear was in Grayling, they made Kodiaks 100+, and 70-80 were available until the compounds came out. Guys realized they could shoot heavy without holding that much.
Damon Howatt made some heavy bows as well.
I had a 48" 85# at 28" Super Magnum. That "Little Bow" was a hoot to shoot.
Matt
Yeah....Jack Howard made some heavy recurve bows as well.
Here's a Java Man 100#er.....
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/java100a.jpg)
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/java100b.jpg)
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/java100c.jpg)
That is an Arrow Dynamics Trad....
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/java100d.jpg)
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
Jeff...actually the question was ...why so many LONGBOWS for sale.
You're right. That's what I get for reading the whole thread...I lost the point!
Nice bow Terry! Is it yours? Does it get shot much?
I had a guy who worked at a pro shop in Birmingham,AL try to sell me a bow once. I had never pulled a bow back before. I was 21 yrs old, bench pressed 430lbs, wore a 50 size jacket and 33 size pants... yes I was in shape at the time. I asked if I could shoot a bow like it before I bought it. He said sure, you can shoot my bow... when we walked over to the range, the guy had a nice little smirk on his face when he said, O btw, my bow has a 90lb draw. Now this guy had a huge build, 6'3" and about 280lbs, built like a tackle for the Tide, and here's me wearing a saggy sweatshirt bout 190lbs... He actually thought it was funny, his attitude, til I bout pulled the wheels off his 'specially made' heavy Mathews and asked them if they made a heavier model, bc it was so easy to pull.
Yes, I knew what he was doing, and granted it was a compound, but still I didnt like his smart butt attitude. Needless to say, he didnt sell me a bow that day. For him it was an ego thing, but I dont think everyone thinks that way who shoots heavy bows. I have had some guys look at me funny for shooting my homemade 65 lb recurve, asking why I wanted to shoot such a bow when a 50 lb would kill anything in North America. I feel that is another ego problem all together, possibly jealousy.
I feel that if I practiced with a heavy bow, that I would eventually be able to shoot it well as long as I was careful not to injure myself during the workout/shooting sessions. As an amateur bowyer, I would be nervous to make a recurve in the style I like to make, forward handle, medium wrist style mostly because I would be afraid it would break in the center of the grip. So that may be the most obvious reason... not that many are made to begin with to have the opportunity to be sold, and like a GT500, no one wants to sell them.
Dave
Yes, that Java Man is mine....
I shoot it on occasion.
I will say it because no-one else did. LOL, Us old farts are getting "older', weeker and have things like arthritis setting in. I had a custom longbow made for me in 2009. #40 @ 28" and have killed a few deer with it including a deer using a wood arrow and a stone head. At my age and health condition my max is 45# and able to shoot it with accuracy.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
Yes, that Java Man is mine....
I shoot it on occasion.
Very cool! I knew you were hiding a heavy bow.
Not really....I've posted pics of if before Forrest...its just not my 'goto bow' :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
Giving it a whirl again since this thread began...and the temps are nice and warm for the muscles...
Its been a while due to lots of circumstances...but I'm building back up to it slowly.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
Not really....I've posted pics of if before Forrest...its just not my 'goto bow' :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
Giving it a whirl again since this thread began...and the temps are nice and warm for the muscles...
Its been a while due to lots of circumstances...but I'm building back up to it slowly.
Doesn't count since I wasn't here? :biglaugh: Just kidding.
I guess it'd be a great 'go to' bow. I love my "80#" go to recurve. It's small and quiet. The longbow is good also. I guess anything could be a go to bow if you shoot it a lot.