Coming back to trad after a 6-7 year break and I'm felling VERY frustrated because I can't stop the arrows from ticking off the shelf!
Here's the specs and info. 40# (at my draw) 3 piece R/D longbow. I ran the knock point all the way up past an inch, took brace height from 7" all the way up to 9", swapped limbs to make sure it wasn't a tiller problem and tried arrows from 35 to 65 spine. Nothing I did seems to make a bit of difference!
I settled on some 50-55 cedar shafts with 160gr points. They fly dead straight without a hint of tail wag, even without fletching, but always nock high. I put a piece of masking tape on the shelf and colored it with some marker. You can clearly see the arrow ticks the shelf about 1/4" away from the strike plate and it leaves a mark on the arrow about 2-3 inches in front of the fletching. Weaker and stiffer arrows did the same problem.
I spent about 6 hours trying to figure this out yesterday. As a last resort I came out of lurking and joined up here to see if anyone could give a bit of advice on the problem. Any ideas?
What style of release do you use? 3under or split? Double nock set or single nock?
It sounds like you have tinkered with the obvious issues; nock locator height and arrow spine.
Have you shot with broadheads and field points? If so do both shoot in the same group with no planing? If so, it doesn't sound like this is something that will impact your shot? Of course it is irritating. A lot of folks, if their field points and broadheads grouped together wouldn't look any further.
I'm wondering two things related to form.
1. Are you shooting split finger or 3-under? Have you tried the other way to see if the problem persists? Of course it shouldn't but maybe the string is coming off your fingers in and odd, vertical torquing way?
2. Your bow hand set. Does your bow hand wrist make an "L" with the life-line of the hand seated flat against the grip? With the pressure evenly distributed this will prevent heeling the bottom of the grip with the bowhand.
Kawika, good question about the double nock locators. That arrow could be moving down upon release.
Just fishing here.
Oh, welcome as a poster!
have you tried nock point above and below arrow? nock may be sliding down string on release.
I tried tying a second nock to make sure it wasn't sliding down the string. I normally shoot 3 under but I tried split and I also concentrated real hard on relaxing my string hand on release to make sure I wasn't tweaking the string.
I have not tried broad heads. The arrows are so tail high out of the bow I was a bit paranoid try them. My bare shafts are hitting 2+ feet low at 20 yards and fly with a 45 deg nose down angle all the way to the target.
Thanks for the ideas and the welcome.
whats the tiller measure on your bow?
Yikes, you are correct, the arrow isn't ready for broadheads yet.
QuoteOriginally posted by JB:
whats the tiller measure on your bow?
I just went and measured it, at the top and bottom of the riser it measures dead even.
Don't measure at the riser, Measure at the fade-out. The limb wedge fades into the limb core.
Don't get frustrated it can be fixed.
It sounds like your nock point is way to high at this point. How do your nocks fit on to the string? loose or tight?
Place a pad of velcro or rug rest material on the shelf to give a slight elevated rest and a small contact point for the arrow. Place this pad right above the deepest part of the grip. The throat area.
Good luck
Do you have a way to video to see if it might also be a problem with your form and how you are releasing the arrow. Also did the bow maker have a recommended brace height for this bow?
OK, I'm no expert...
Try lowering your nock. This will get your arrow on the horizontal plane. Or possibly even better try build up your rest and leaving a small gap between the rest and the shelf. This should hold your arrow in better on the rest while putting your arrow on the horizontal plane.
I believe even tiller should be greta for 3 under. If you are comfortable shooting 3 under I think that you would benifit from shooting that way.
Good luck and don't give up!!!
Thanks, I wasn't sure where to measure from. At the fades the top limb measures 8 3/4" the bottom is 8 5/8".
The shelf is crowned and I am currently using a velcro rest and calf hair side plate.
Nocks fall off the string with a light flick of my finger. Nock point is around 3/8" right now but, it doesn't matter much where I set it right now.
Should also mention, I tried a feather rest to get better clearance. No luck there either.
QuoteOriginally posted by Two Tracks:
Don't measure at the riser, Measure at the fade-out. The limb wedge fades into the limb core.
Don't get frustrated it can be fixed.
It sounds like your nock point is way to high at this point. How do your nocks fit on to the string? loose or tight?
Place a pad of velcro or rug rest material on the shelf to give a slight elevated rest and a small contact point for the arrow. Place this pad right above the deepest part of the grip. The throat area.
Good luck
Chuck, I echo what you have said - especially the point on the shelf that sits directly over throat of the grip.
I'd also add that a close pic of an arrow knocked as it sits in place could generate more food for discussion here.
Hmm.
Tiller ok at 1/8" higher on top. Side plate and velcro pad on the shelf. Light tapped nocks fall off. Nock locator at 3/8" should be within 1/4" of fine and he's gone up and down the string trying different levels.
Looks a "by the book starting set-up". Three fingers under with a relaxed release. I won't get into where I think follow-through should be because that's a thread-killer.
Strange, this almost looks like a quiz for someone who just read the book on set-up.
If you shoot split and your drawing hand elbow is to high and your putting to much pressure on the arrow with your index finger so that at full draw the arrow is bowed down that can happen as the arrow straightens out again at release
QuoteOriginally posted by Bowwild:
Strange, this almost looks like a quiz for someone who just read the book on set-up.
I really wish it was just a quiz Bowwild. I've been chasing my tail on this for over a week now and near a full day yesterday. There is something I'm overlooking but I can't figure out what!
have you tried two under? Also, you might try dropping the brace to 6.75". Your bow's limb timing might be off...I hate to even mention this, but it is a possibility that might need to be considered. My guess is that you either have an issue with your form or there is an issue with the limbs on your bow. You may want to check and make sure the limb bolts are tight as well.
So nobody think's I'm trying to pull your leg, here is a picture of the shelf where you can see the arrows have removed the marker off the tape.
Thanks to all for input.
(http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-xnL6kMX/0/O/i-xnL6kMX.jpg)
Is there any way you could post a couple pictures of you at full draw from each side?
Another question that may seem odd... But can you grab your bow with one hand and try and move the string up and down. Then tell us what the limbs do.
The only thing that i can think of that would cause the problem you are having is a combination of vertical instability in the limbs of the bow, and heeling down too hard on the grip.
Now please don't get me wrong here....vertically unstable bows can drive tacks, and have good arrow flight too. There are a lot of them out there that have this "Floppy limb" quality to them that are very high performance bows... BUT.... They are very sensitive to getting just the right pressure point on the grip, and having a nice clean release.
I'd recommend trying different pressure points on the grip from high to low, along with nocking point elevation.
Kirk
What was your brace height again?
For my taste... you seem a little low for a nocking point for 3under... but that's just me.
Jose,
I don't doubt that you are having difficulty and trying hard to figure this out. It's just a wild coincidence that just an hour or so before reading your post I read a post on "Tuning". So many of things you've done to set up your bow are right on that well-respected fellows advice.
Of course you've already stated that you've tried a variety of nocking points.
As I asked above. I assume your palm pressure is equally spread over the entire face of the grip and that you aren't heeling the bow instead of relaxed throughout the release?
Kirk, unfortunately no one is here to get shots of me at full draw. I did go take a few quick shots to check my grip at your advice. Most of the weight is on the meaty part at the base of my thumb and in the deepest part of the grip. I also tried a few shots with a high wrist but it didn't seem to help.
Kawika, right now the brace height is around 8 1/4". It seems to be the quietest/smoothest spot.
Thanks Bowwild, just wanted to make sure someone didn't think I was actually giving a quiz or looking for attention. The internet is wide open to all sorts and I have seen crazier things.
Sell or trade the bow, get another. ;)
Maybe I can't see it clearly but it appears that shelf pad is quite thin? I wonder if the shaft is bouncing a bit because it isn't cushioned enough?
I did try a feather rest to get better clearance but it didn't help.
If you change one thing it affects another so you should have raised your nocking point with that feather rest. When raising and lowering your nocking point did you do it in small increments?
You could start from scratch and give this a try... http://bowmaker.net/tuning.htm
Jose, do you cant the bow, and if so, do you cant your face and the back of the drawing hand to the same cant angle? I sometimes torque the string by not canting my hand to the same bow cant angle, and it especially causes more flight problems on lighter weight bows, for me. I get much better flight when the back of my drawing hand is parallel with the string, whether canted or not.
It sounds to me like the arrow is sliding down the string upon release. Try putting a nocking point below the arrow as well as one above it.
I had that same problem on a Bob Lee short riser. Could not get it too shoot and always hit in that spot. I traded out my riser to a regular one and problem went away. All I can figure is that it was a combination of finger pinch and poor string fingers. Longer bow made it go away.
Thanks, I truly appreciate the input from all. I have checked all/most of the advice posted but still have had no success.
At this point the only thing I can think of is I was getting tired yesterday after loosing a few hundred arrows and I missed the proper setup. I'll start again from the beginning tomorrow and see if I can work it out slowly during the week.
Thanks again, Jose
QuoteOriginally posted by Jose Rios:
I'll start again from the beginning tomorrow and see if I can work it out slowly during the week.
That sounds like a plan... let us know how things go for you.
Best of luck. :thumbsup: