This past weekend, I went to a local archery center and got my string re-served, renocked, and a new arrow rest put on the shelf (I had a flipper before). I was so excited. I went in so happy to have found this place, run by a single man, who has clearly dedicated himself to archery and bowhunting and even has target and 3d ranges to practice on.
It also looks like a great place to meet local bowhunters (there's a trad night once a week :) ).I was sold on the place the minute I walked in, convinced I should be spending my money (and my time) at a knowledgeable and community-centered place like this. And was very trusting of everyone as I was eager to learn the trade and get ready for the spring season.
The problem is: My arrow rest fell off within a half hour of it being put on. I then realized the vertical 'matchstick' under the plate was so high my arrow was not hitting it.
I also noticed that when shooting my arrows at 5 yards, the impact of the arrow was very downwards. I asked the owner if that was normal and he told me to just back up the target so the arrow could stabilize. After doing some research it sounds like this was a tuning issue with the nock...
I am bummed. I was hoping to find a place I could just trust. I was eager to order my new bow through him, and willing to pay extra because of the person-to-person help setting it up, but now I am unsure it's worth the extra cost.
Do you guys/gals expect better service at your local shops? Is this the standard? And is it moral to use his range (there are modest fees) without supporting the shop side of his business at the same time?
side note: the bonus of this is I am learning to tune my bow myself - and finding the tools are rather inexpensive compared to service fees.
Learning to do your own work is a reward that has no limit. Use the range if you want, I make my own in the yard. And go on Trad night and learn what you can from others.
Its your money if you are not satisfied with the work dont have them do it. use the excuse my buddy does it for free or I do my own work now. He wont notice the small stuff if its a busy shop. Buy a set of heads or feathers once in a while if you have guilt.JMHO
I support my local shop by buying what i can there. They usually have small things i use like rest material or field points or a bag target. I do all my own work to my bows and build my own arrows.. Learn what you can and do your own nock heigth adjustments and rest replacements. You will do better in the long run by knowing what each adjustment does for arrow flight
I went to a local shop the other day to look for some 200 gr field points and was asked why I wanted them so heavy. I made the mistake of saying I want to hunt with a recurve this fall and was treated to a lecture about how I shoulnt be hunting with a recurve because there will be a lot of wounded deer running around where I hunt.
I wont be going back there.
I got a similar lecture at the local gun shop when I asked for stuff to feed my flintlock rifle.
Its amazing that humantity was able to survive without the use of compound bows and mechanical broadheads and belted magnum rifles to feed themselve for all of those years!
I dont begrudge anyone who uses modern stuff for hunting. The older I get the more I like simple stuff that some folks call primitive.
I try to support my local archery shop, but they just don't have much in the way of trad gear or products. I buy a few things from them when I can. I like to support local businesses.
I think its very honorable of you to want to support your local shop. Use their services and buys their products when you can, but certainly don't feel guilty about the situation if they don't serve your needs. You might tactfully give the owner some feedback. If he's a good business man, he will appreciate it and try to serve you better. If not, then move on.
It's good to learn all you can about setting up and tuning your own equipment. Helps you understand things better as well as being rewarding.
All the best to you and by all means, have fun!
It's not hard to learn the basics of working on your own bow. I agree with both guys about the rewards of being able to do it yourself! My local shop are a great bunch of guys, but don't know much about traditional bows and/or setting them up. I was even told I would never get good arrow flight using carbons and not many trad shooters use them. Ha! Some shops or more interested in selling a $900 compound with all the gadgets than a dozen nocks or inserts. Maybe give him another chance and if still dissatisfied, don't go back. You can build a great target with a few hay bales, just be sure and shoot into the top or bottom, not the sides.
I would say this is a microcosm of a larger issue seen here at trad gang. If my trad friends came over and I asked them to set my bow up I'm not sure it would work well. Not because they don't know anything. Instead it would just be different than how I need it. Your local guy may just know how he needs it. Not how you need it set up. Not saying you can't use advice from someone else. It just may not work for you. Learn from the others. Buy stuff u need but experiment for yourself is the best answer most times.
Chris Kinslow x2.
I have a local shop where the owner really is knowlegeable. He just can't spend the time adjusting my nock point or brace height to fit me. He has quality equipment for sale and 90% of it is trad stuff. I still do the nock adjustment, brace height, bare shafting etc for myself. I learn more that way. I support him when I can because I appreciate him being there. Trad archery is different than compounds where you need a bow press, etc, etc. My enjoyment is in getting my gear to fit me.
We have Cabelas, shields and sportsman warehouse. When the guys get bows at those places and they cannot shoot, they end up in the independent shop. Rick fixes the cam bows and tunes them up
He shoots a Schultz and can do trad so very well. We are lucky to have him
Like others, patronize the guy who services your needs. Also learn to do these things yourself and experience the joy
In Michigan we are very lucky to have 4 or 5 trad only shoots a year which are supported by trad vendors. Plenty of help there if you need it but like most have said it will pay to learn some of your own set up techniques.
yup...pretty basic tuning(nock poing needing adjusting). Its easy to do though I'm suprised if you handed him a tuned bow he didnt get closer though.
The match stick deal could have been a simple mistake on diameter of arrows. Giving him the benefit of doubt...or just a sloppy job over all, only you can judge that. Just because someones been in archery a long time, doesnt mean they can handle a stick. the last 20+ years has been dominated by wheels...who knows maybe he wasnt big into trad archery before hand??? Either way another simple fix.
Serving is also super easy.....heck building your strings is a walk in the park also. Wouldnt hurt to learn both, you're going to need a new string eventually!!! If you do pick up doing the twist or his new video "how to build a great bowstring".
Overall it sounds like he really isnt into traditional archery...or isnt interested in learning it. JMHO.
The pro shops around here don't deal with traditional gear at all....I guess a couple of em have a couple old recurves they're trying to sell for their buddies, but that's it.
Yep all our shops are compound based and rightly so. That's where the masses and the money is. The arrows from my bows will shoot a bullet hole in paper at 7 paces. You just need to tune your stuff properly. I would get it tuned and then if you would like to use the fellow's targets go back in pay the range fee and then show him how your arrow flight is much better and walk him through what you did to fix it.
I only deal over the Internet, and TG sponsors. People do mention archery shops in our area, I have no clue where they are. Then again I don't seem to spend time in stores of any kind. You can learn way more right here than in a store.
Doing it yourself is a just part of traditional archery. If you learn to do it yourself you will become less dependent on others for your needs.
QuoteOriginally posted by Pipefish:
... I was hoping to find a place I could just trust...
Do you guys/gals expect better service at your local shops? Is this the standard? And is it moral to use his range (there are modest fees) without supporting the shop side of his business at the same time?
Its an issue of knowlege and skill. Not trust IMO. And if you have to ask if its moral to use his range, but not support his business or help him become a better trad dealer, then maybe the issue you should be worried about is a little closer to home.
Sorry to be so blunt, but good trad shops usually evolve. They are not instantly great.
Talk to him one on one, in a way that shows you are interested in his shop, but want better knowlege coming from him. Do it in a way he won't feel cornered.
Joshua
I agree with most of the responses. I like knowing how to take care of my equipment so it works to the best of its potential, and the weakest link is me. I would love a sporting goods store around here that dealt with trad stuff, but like most of America they deal with compounds.
I have found lots of compound shooters have their nock point centered on the rest. If he did this for your bow that would cause a porposing effect. I would learn what I could and support him for products if he carries what you need. I would definatly ask for him to put the rest back on if his first job did not stay on.
Sounds like a great shop to spend some time in .. as for the tuning issues. like many said here , only can do that. Absolutly we should support them.
Pipefish, I think you should continue to support him. Like some of the others, I'd suggest learning to do some of the basics yourself. It's really not that difficult. Even if you don't want to do these things yourself, you should at least know what to look for. Once you get a properly tuned arrow, take note of the correct brace height and nock height. A couple of quick measurements will confirm whether they are correct or not.
At the very least, I'd suggest shooting some arrows on his range to make sure your arrows are hitting where you are looking.
Thanks for the input everyone. I will be back to the shop and the range, but with altered expectations of how I should contribute to the business.
jhg (Joshua), I have a few comments about what you wrote:
1. "Its an issue of knowledge and skill. Not trust IMO."
I do believe it is a trust issue. If you present yourself as a professional in a particular sport and are willing to deal with novices who cannot judge your knowledge and skill fairly, you have the responsibility to do a professional job. If you cannot do a professional job, for whatever reason (time, lack of skills, etc...), it would be considerate to let the customer know this and suggest he do more research, or at least offer realistic expectations for the service you will be providing. (Equally, I have the responsibility to learn about the sport and make judgments for myself - a process that can be hastened with a trusting relationship with someone more knowledgeable than I - such as this shop keeper).
2. "And if you have to ask if its moral to use his range, but not support his business or help him become a better trad dealer, then maybe the issue you should be worried about is a little closer to home."
Whether it is right of me to use his range or not is not black and white to me. I pay fees to be on that range. Originally, I felt that because this man has helped establish a community that I can learn from and have fun with, I should be supporting him fully. After reading people's comments I feel better supporting him in the aspects of his business solely where I am happy with the service.
Additionally, I think seeking the experience and collective wisdom of a group, like Trad Gang, by asking probing questions about a moral/ethical dilemma is a great way anchor my own feelings. It provides me with greater insight and offers new solutions (like yours, see #4 below).
Finally, I should add that this shopkeeper is incredibly nice. I enjoyed talking with him and I got the impression he enjoyed sharing with me. I do not think he has tried to bamboozle me. I simply do not want to end up spending money on things I will not be happy with; and I tend to do this more when the salesperson is charismatic.
3. "Sorry to be so blunt, but good trad shops usually evolve. They are not instantly great."
This individual has been in business for around decades. He uses this fact to sell his services. As many people have correctly assumed, he mostly deals with compounds; He does not stock much traditional gear so you have to order it. If my patronage helps sway him towards stocking more traditional gear, I will try to support that effort when I can. To pay for things that do not suit me in hopes the shop will evolve towards a my traditional needs, seems unwise: It supports his current model.
4. "Talk to him one on one, in a way that shows you are interested in his shop, but want better knowledge coming from him. Do it in a way he won't feel cornered."
I agree with you on this point. Good idea, Thanks.
Dan
I wish there were other Trad dealers in Southern Maine.
Original Poster asked; Is it moral to pay to use your dealers range and not buy from him? I think so. If the range was free, then it would be different. If your dealer is an HONEST person trying to make an honest buck, I say stick with him and Give Thanks! There is a learning curve in everything, and if he is trustworthy, give him a chance. If your dealer is in Southern Maine, please PM me, as I may want to swing by the next time I need arrows or glue.
I do my own tuning, etc. and buy supplies from 3-Rivers, Cabelas and Kittery Trading Post. And I have a "Trad" dealer (although he primarily sells compounds and lies), right across the street. Why not support him you ask? I tried, but to start with... his work was off, made "custom" strings that were either an inch too long or an inch or more too short. He even tried to sell me a fast flight string for an old 60's Ben Pearson recurve, he didn't know the difference between fast flight and B-50 Dacron until I told him. A real "Custom" shop, if BS can be scaled and measured! The final straw was when he scammed an elderly man out of 2 vintage Bear bows and then bragged to me about the lies he told to get them for free, and then he wanted ME to sell the bows for him on #-Bay, so none of the customers at his shop would see them for sale and go back and tell the old man!!! I was steamed! His True Colors showed. I have not spoken to that SOB since that day. Honesty and integrity are everything, and I refuse to support or deal with a liar and a con artist. I was setting up and tuning Traditional tackle myself before I foolishly tried to give him the benefit of the doubt and my $$$ (due to his well known reputation as a poacher), and I'm much happier now I'm doing it myself again... and it is done right. And I don't cross the street questioning my ethics and morals for dealing with the loud mouthed, crooked little troll.
Moral of the story; when in doubt about a dealer's integrity (despite his smile and smooth talk), check with local law enforcement / game warden's, as they often have the inside story.
I see your point(s) Daniel, but still differ with you on at least one of them. But regardless, thanks for following up on my response and sorry for not getting back to this sooner.
It sounds like the shop will be lucky to have you as a customer. I would be.
Joshua
I know how you feel all the archery shops in my area cater to the compound crowd. When I first started with a traditional bow I didn't know anyone who could help me out with arrow flight or anything. I ended up having to figure out how to do everything on my own. The up side to this is you learn the skills needed to tune a bow and shoot it well.
My local archery shop is as close as my keyboard or phone-so is my bowyer.
If they aren't a sponsor they are too far! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I am sorry but there is no way you can depend on a guy who doesnt shoot your bow to tune it for you... serve string, yes but set nocking points and shelf clearance, uh, no.
You could take 20 guys on here, hand them the same bow, same arrow and they'd likely put the nocking point on in 10 different places, strike plate at 3 different places. The guy'd have to spend a half our with you shooting bare shafts, you using perfect form to get you close. On the stuff falling off... I have yet to find a sticky material other than a certain velcro that will stick to the finishes on my bows, which I cant call the name of. If I use other materials, I have to glue it on.
In other words, I wouldnt be po'd at the guy for this.
Dave
I don't support my local shop. The closest shop is 23 miles away and only carry 125 grain screw on Zwickey broad heads, and every mechanical head imaginable. There theory is you don't need anything heavier than that.
Every time I have been in they try to convert me to compounds. Big mistake!
I'm personal friends with the owner, and he hates to see me come in the doors. He knows I have a collection of mechanical heads which have been recovered from game taken at management areas. All of which have been found in animals that were not killed by the mechanical heads. I can easily back reasons for heavy non-mechanical heads. And he hates when I start lecturing his fast and light minded employees.
Learn to make and tune your own equipment and buy on line. I have yet to order anything from a sponsor that has taken more than 3 days to arrive.
Can't say your local shop can order anything and have it to you that quick.
Being a small shop (liquor & wine) owner myself, I appreciate what motivates people who make that commitment. I also know all too well that humans, even me occasionally, are human.
If there was a local trad oriented archery shop you better bet I would patronize it. It would be great to be able to try on gloves before buying them or trying on 5 different styles all side by side. Or just saying, "Does this sound normal to you?" Or "Am I doing this right?" But that said, I don't think it is ethical to try on gloves at the local shop and then buy them from 3R.
And being able to shoot a bow before you buy it would be quite a luxury for me. I would also like to buy just one or two field points, like a couple of 275 grains or a shaft or two just to see what they do or to be able to shoot different shafts there in the shop. Buying very small quantities of shafts, weights, points, etc. the local shop could be a big help in your tuning. And just remembering what you shoot as in, "Hey, Pat, I just got in these 4" shields you might want to take a look at." I do that a couple dozen times a day in my shop.
I think if you want to set up a trad pro shop, you need to be fanatical about teaching people how to do it themselves rather than doing it for them. I fantasize about doing that someday, but of course I'd have to take a vow of poverty (another one) and maybe chastity, too, not to mention living to be 150 years old.
Like many the local archery shops have next to nothing to offer the trad archer. I have bought bag targets or fletching tape but that it about it. One has said he wants to increase his trad business but so far I haven't seen any physical evidence. If I do I will be in there like a flash.
I agree with Bjorn. It is getting harder and harder to find trad items at local shops and even more difficult to find knowledgeable persons at the stores with regard to trad gear. So I support the sponsors here and the site cause I'll really be up the creek if they can't make a go of it. :scared:
I ran short once and just ran to the locals to for some small thing and they looked at me like I was just thawed out of a glacier. :campfire:
In the long run, learning to do it ourselves is a large part of who we are. It's just that simple.
There was a little shop in Sidney Mt run by Henry Schwenke. He had everything you would ever need! He would find a bow for you, any type of broadhead, string or glove you could ever want. And he would BS with your for hours on end! If I could find a shop like that one again I would give them all my business!
I haven't been in an archery shop since the early 70's that knew anything about recurves. For most of them there's no money in knowing and they have to make a living.
Until recently I used to drop in to a local archery/gun shop and buy a small thing or two. I stopped even doing that back in January. I have been appalled at some of the advice I've overheard a "pro-shop" staffer give to even compound shooters. Extremely biased and inaccurate information some times.
A lot of these fellows will just give a "trad" shooter a blank stare or if they are exceedingly honest simply admit they have no idea. I think some of them suspect they are being "tested" by a "trad" shooter that knows more than they do (or at least thinks so) and they want us to simply go away. By the way, some figure we can't shoot and that we've switched to "trad" equipment to have an excuse for missing.
There are two alternatives I think for a "trad" shooter these days. Get to know some like-minded veterans at local trad shoots. After a while you can get a good idea about the knowledge of some folks by simply observing their equipment choices. Search, research, and ask questions here on Trad Gang. Of course I'm sure there are some shops around the country that are staffed by some excellent "trad" experts but I've never been to one. I'd bet they are more common in the west than anywhere else?
The only caveat to my two alternatives is you have to be discerning. You'll quickly find that there are multiple ways to skin a cat--some better than others. For example, on the subject of nock locators some will give you a specific measurement such as 1/2, 5/8, or 3/4" above horizontal to start with and stop there. Others will provide these same starting points but then advise to check for porpoising and adjust accordingly (Olympic style archers are told to start, because they also shoot with fingers, at 1/2"). The key is to learn not just what to do but why.
Another example, I wouldn't want to take advice about curing Target Panic from someone who has it -- a lot of times these folks won't shoot in front of you. If they can't fix their own problem what chance do they have fixing another persons? Someone who has corrected the problem is fine, great actually because they lived through it.
I'm lucky. I have a friend who could write authoritative books and has produced DVDs on trad subjects (and compounds). If I have a question or am wondering about something I go to Trad Gang but Tim is my final authority. However, sometimes I even have to challenge him to sort through personal preference vs. cold hard facts.
The search function here is a GOLDMINE of information!
Learn to do it yourself,not really that hard.I make my own recurves,longbows,arrows,back quivers,bow quivers,tabs,armguards ect.If I do need supplies,I buy from vendors that support Trad Gang.You can't beat the knowledge right here if you need to know something.
I usually buy from dealers at Traditional shoots, don't need a whole lot. If a shop owner has time to BS hours on end he apparently does'nt have many customers.
Danbow, I didnt mention that his shop was in a big shed in his back yard, it was a hobby for him. Henry started selling bows for Bear Archery in the 50s, this was in the 80s. It was more of a novelty than anything. Henry Schwenke was the Montana Bowhunters Association "Hunter of the year" at one time, so it was more like going into Glen St Charles private shop and having him sell you some brush buttons. Oh, he was good friends with Glen too!
If I lived near Ashley ,IN or Schererville, IN, Arvada CO and Kansas City MO I know I'd be stopping by Braveheart Archery, Kustom King ,3rivers, RockY Mountain specialty etc. all the time. The fact remains though that they generally too far in between now days. If you're viewing this though, you're on the internet and almost as good as next door and you can call and get good advice. The reality is those days of the local shops for the most part went in the 80's with the mass conversion to wheels. Training someone or developing them to be Trad knowledgable, well you're already ahead of them in the learning curve and have more incentive. If you live near a knowledgable local shop all I can say is I'm jealous. I'll just have to do with the Internet and the shoots.
I use the Local Shop for small items, and he will generally Undersell the catalog prices to get the business.
I figure he has ALWAYS been Good to me, and he and his Founding Brothers started out as a "Trad. Shop" many, many Moons ago. He has just become so Rusty after dealing Wheels for Years, he is at Least making an Attempt to get back and keep some Trad. Business. Yes I do most of my own work, but I can buy some Feathers from him now and then, and he will Order whatever I require. Granted, he isnt as Lightning Fast as the Online Shops, but I figure I use his Range, and he is a Good Friend to me.
Its Good to have a Local Shop for Indoor Shooting, Jawing around the Stove in the Winter, and he has Forgotten more about Archery than I know. An Invaluable Resource in My Opinion.