With Andy Ivy's ("Tradtusker")permission, I wanted to post this here so more folks would see it.
Andy's findings from his time out in the "bush"...
Copy and pasted from another forum here on TG...
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Ok Coming back to this thread Ill give you some info from the field
Last year I did quite a bit of testing on buffalo, both live and on the ground. Did some with clients and some on my own.
Also over the last few years guiding Buffalo Safari's I get to see a lot arrows hitting Buffalo First hand.
So here are a few things which may be of interest.
Firstly there are a lot of heads that work well, some no doubt better then others.
the Water Buff ribs do not truly overlap, you can slip one through if you get very lucky, 90 of the time you will be hitting a rib though.
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/tradtusker/IMG_1374.jpg)
Again from Andy....
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The Photo above is of the 3 ribs that cover the "sweet" Spot.
On the topic of broadheads We'v had a bunch of heads used over the last few years outside of what i have tested.
Some worked well, some did not, some failed as a result of a poor hit, some just got unlucky, and some directly as a result of the broadhead failing upon impact.
There are 2 main failure's i see in broadheads.
Both are from poor structural integrity be it due to the design or the material of the head or both.
Of the 2 failure's the worst is the head actually breaking, this usually happens within the front third of the head near the tip, usually right in front of where the ferrule taper ends and it just becomes the blade. Its is a hinge point, where the heads that are to brittle and hard to bend so just break.
Im am in two minds as to actually Name the heads iv seen break and bend "consistently", I am only putting this information up to help other hunters and can think of nothing worse then someone booking a hunt of the lifetime and having the head they choose Fail them. So I think if you want to know Just PM me.
The Second failure which is quite common is the head bending this is also most common near the tip of the head. But iv seen the head bend through the ferrule and at the insert.
Either way if the head bends or breaks upon hitting a bone, its going seriously hider penetration and your in trouble.
The next most common failure is the head bending at the Insert or the insert breaking out of the shaft or splitting it. And is the main reason i Foot "all my arrows" no mater what i hunt. Why risk that when there is a way to fix it.
There are quite a few specialist big game heads out now if i can call them that. But they are not all made the same, in fact there have been some serious issues with some. And just because a head may cost $30 or $40 each...does not mean it is the best!
And again from Andy...
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There where a few heads that did well last year, Zwickey for a age old is worth a mention...seen a lot of buff go down to one.
That Tuff head is looking good, will see that in action this year.
Quite surprisingly this head last year Topped them "ALL", I knew it would be good but did not realize just how good.
And Yes it is a 3 Blade...
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/tradtusker/IMG_1046.jpg)
300gr VPA
Not only did it hands down beat all the others in testing and matched some of the highest dollar single bevel 2blades for Penetration, Hands down the best structural Integrity. Best anti deflection on angled impacts.
Its was also the only head i have seen go clean through a Buffalo and into the ground on the other Side.
Please don't take this as me trying to rile anyone up, just thought this was worth more folks reading.
Andy was hesitant to put this here, but let me do it because all he's trying to do is pass along his own personal findings.
Bet it will open some eyes though....
Thank you Andy :thumbsup:
:notworthy:
VPA heads are awesome. Thanks for posting this up Guru.
Andy has some YouTube videos up where he's tested VPA heads. Anyone interested can go to YouTube.com and do a search for VPA broadheads. And if anyone has questions about our products, they can shoot me an e-mail at midwestbowhunter@gmail.com
-Jameson (VPA Sales)
Very cool!
Thanks for doing this. It's what this site is for. People test and report their findings. Most of the time, it has cost me a lot less $ reading and paying heed to the advice from others, thrown in with some testing of my own.
I would like to know the what it took to push that 3 blade all the way through that Buff. No doubt it was " keep away from me" sharp, but thats a lot of cuttin'.
Would also like to know the heads that didnt fair so well.
Thanks for your time and research Andy!
Eric
This Info and findings above are related to a Buffalo BH post so i had that in mind, but non the less it is as relevant hunting deer or any game as it is hunting big game.
And Im talking specifically here broadhead findings, not bow weight, type, arrows ect etc.
Though they all play a huge part as you all know and its finding that "balance" in your gear for how and what you will be hunting.
I have always had a keen interest in testing gear, pushing boundaries right from when i started, kind of one of those guys that has to see it myself to believe it.
Luckily for me my life affords me to do a lot of hunting myself, lots of time in the field, months and months Guiding everything from African game to Buffalo, Deer and Hogs in Australia.
To think about how many animals i see every year taken with archery tackle would be in the hundreds... easily! every year.
Iv kept logs, Notes, mental notes, video's, voice recordings the works. Recording what the hunters are shooting, what has worked what has failed. In all aspects of bowhunting. And to see that actually on animal in the field is a long way from what you can try test for in the back garden. Just for my own interest really, so im not trying to step on any toes, Im honest about what i find and only wish that whatever info i can give will help other bowhunters.
The info above is really just a scratch on the surface of the subject. We could all go into some depth about it.
Good read, and nothing surprising about it at all to me.
I settled on using the VPA 3 blade heads a few years ago, and haven't looked back, or even thought about another broadhead since.
Rick
To quote Andy...."We could all go into some depth about it"
Lets do it brother...
And thanx again, great to have this type of info :clapper:
I just switched to a 175 VPA, so I can't wait to get one bloody.
Thanks for the info!!!!
For me this is what i see
"your bowhunting set-up is only as good as the worst piece of gear in it"
So you strive to eliminate what can go wrong within your setup, and then strive to improve it and yourself.
When you look at it like that, the broadhead is absolutely Critical...its on the business end of your set-up.
If that broadhead fails you, at the moment of truth, it ruins absolutely every bit of time and effort you have put in up until that moment.
There are hundreds to choose from, from the simple to the weird and whacky.
There are heads out there that anyone should be able to look at and see they are not going to be cut out for the job, design flaws, materials used, weak area's, potential failure area's ...ect..ect but they still end up on the front of hunters arrows. Sure they might work once, every now and then, but its about finding what will within reason "always work"
Yeah what was the bow setup for that broadhead. I love VPA heads but this is very impressive. I've been testing the Tuffheads out of a 64# bow and it's done very well on all the bone I've put it through.(cow bones, scapula and pelvic)
I will be looking for more on this subject.
Good read, thanks for the info! :notworthy: :campfire:
Good info. Thanks!
Andy may correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the bow that put achieved a clean pass through on the buff was a compound set up. Andy can give the specifics when he gets a chance.
Nonetheless, Andy will most likely tell you that it's the first time he's seen an arrow go clean through a buff no matter what bow is used. Yeah, I'm biased on broadheads and I know full well how good VPA heads are, but that buff pass through even impressed me! Lol!
I started using the prototype VPA 3 blade in August of 2009. Since that time I have killed over 35 pigs using these broadheads, 21 of which were all taken with the same head.
The pigs ranged in size from 80lbs to over 300lbs. Most were complete pass through exits, but even those that were not had off side exits of the broadhead, and that includes shots from all angles, even broadside shots through thick shield, and ribs on some of the larger animals.
I know a pig does not compare to a buff, but they are pretty solid animals with tough hide, thick muscle & fat, and very strong skeletal structures.
The bow arrow setup was/is Blackwidow PMA 68# using 7595 GT Trads, and 175gr 3 blades for a finished arrow weight of 615gr.
Rick
AWESOME THREAD!
Thank you!
Keep it coming!
Keep it coming!
I understand your hesitation to point out the chronic failures.
BUT!, I personally believe knowing about the few bad heads is just as important ( if not more ) than knowing about the good ones.
Thanks for the info....
..now spill the dirt..lol :thumbsup:
Keep it going Andy, tis the season for some good reading :thumbsup: Thanks for the input!
Just want to copy this from one of Andy's original posts....
"Im am in two minds as to actually Name the heads iv seen break and bend "consistently", I am only putting this information up to help other hunters and can think of nothing worse then someone booking a hunt of the lifetime and having the head they choose Fail them. So I think if you want to know Just PM me."
Probably best to do it through pm like Andy said, but please don't bomb him with too many pm's....
I've already gotten 6-7 pm's and wasn't even the one who did the test.
His findings will surprise a lot of folks, but don't pressure him to spill the beans...just let him share what he feels appropriate...
:campfire:
Good stuff!
Thanks Andy and Curt for sharing this good infos.
I haven't the chance to see as many animals killed as Andy,but I have used a VPA Terminator myself this year and I am been really impressed how tough these points are,and how esy they resharpen.I am experiencing multi kills with the same head,broken bones,skull and ground/dirt shots and the heads are still in perfect conditions,just few strokes and ready again.Unreal!
Thanks for sharing, Andy. Good stuff for sure.
I want to know what kind of bone if any the VPA hit going through the buff
Thank you Andy for that report!
F-Manny
Good stuff. thanks Andy and Curt. I just got a few of the 300vpa's. Ive had good results so far. In fact the only complete passthroughs (arrow in the ground on the other side) Ive had on hogs was with this head and razorcaps. I think about 8 hogs total. I'll go a little farther and say that that was with bows from 47lb to 59lb and Ive been 100 percent with the above mentioned heads. I'll admit Ive used an arrow weight between 650 and 700gns with these heads. Ive got some of the high dollar heads too. they are great but I'll be sticking with the vpa's until I find something that works better for me.
Good info, will check back later when more is posted.
I love my 3 blade Terminators. I am currently trying out the Grizzlies (by the way how did they perform), but if they don't impress me I will definately be going back to the Terminators.
Andy, did arrow weight play any part? VPA are like having your cake and eating it to.......
The VPA pictured at the start of this thread is one i shot a different Buffalo with, Quartering away shot as you can see and it came out the far side through a rib, but did not have the arrow competitively Pass through, just complete penetration. With the braodhead and about 4 inches of shaft sticking out the far side.
The Head that passed clean through a Buffalo was shot at a broadhside Bull and hit ribs on both entrance and exist.
The bow was a 75lb at 28" compound Arrows were a total weight of 700grs.
Yes bow and arrow weight play a part. But
Iv seen as low as 65lbs to as high as 85lbs
and arrows as low as 550grs to 1050grs.
Those are not that important though, Arrow flight is a massive factor for all hunting and becomes critical for the big game.
A well tuned bow and perfect arrow flight REALLY goes a long way to making things work as they should and perform to its optimum. So tuning it very important!!
There is no point having a great head, high FOC, heavy arrow that is flying like crap!... just the same its no good having a perfectly tuned arrow with good weight, high FOC and a Crap Broadhead on the front.
Its these critical factors that can let you down and they are the vital ones to address and eliminate.
Again your bowhunting set-up is only as good as the weakest piece of gear or factor in it. The idea is that its ironed out until you (the Human) is left as the weakest part of the set-up. Then all you have to worry about is yourself screwing up not your gear. :cool: :D
Another thing that is worth bringing up again is good FOC, I have no doubt it increases penetration. But i don't go crazy with formula's and such, I just shoot a heavy head, get it tuned perfect and see where the FOC ends up. Which is usually around 18% to 22% FOC if i get bored and decide to measure it.
Andy, just want to thank you for your hard work and sharing with us what I think is very true also. I'm glad to see this thread and feel the same. I've talking with a friend of mine heading to Australia soon and told him exactly the same as you have stated here. GET THAT ARROW FLYING LIKE A DART!!! Thanks again Andy. :readit:
To paraphrase Fred Asbell (one of my favorite writers), go back and reread Andy's post above. Probably the clearest post I've seen on this whole broadhead debate to date.
I'm afraid Dr. Ashby's reports (which have a lot of great stuff to them) are leading archers to make decisions that are not taking the whole picture into account. Dr. Ashby's reports do say that a perfect flying arrow is one of the most important factors in penatration (along with structural integrety), but it seems like everyone skips right to the two blade single bevel head as the holy grail.
I love my Kustom King Trailmaker heads for whitetails, which are manufactured by VPA. They fly excellent, sharpen nicely and are structurally sound. The blood trails are like none that I've ever had. I can't ask for any more from my broadhead.
GREAT read, keep it coming! :campfire: :coffee:
Great info. Thank you Andy.
Thank you Andy.......
I do know with the low poundage I shoot the original woodsman does very well. The solid VPA I`m sure is better.Of course I don`t shoot BIG stuff .RC
Thank you for sharin' the info Andy!
It's *always* good to learn new things and what is bringing people success.
Keep the wind in your face!
Shoot straight, Shinken
:archer2:
Andy,
Appreciate the effort!
Sarge
Very interesting! I shoot light weight bows compared to many of the draw weights mentioned above. I'd have to use a wheel barrow to carry a bow with a draw weight of 65-85#'s out of the house! My bows are all 44-49# at my 26" draw.
I've been shooting a single-bevel and very happy with it on white-tail deer.
I am going to buy the 150 grain VPA when I return from a trip at month's end (I don't want packages ending up on my porch while I'm away). Right now I'm using 125 grain broadheads with 100 grain brass insert. I figure I can go to 150 grain VPA (since the diameter remains 1 1/8") and drop to a 75 grain brass insert.
I'm going to have opportunity to shoot some stuff bigger than white-tails in early August. Nothing like a buff or anything, but...?
I haven't tried a 3-blade broadhead for a long time. I wasn't near as good at shapening them as I am with 2-blades. Of course if I can't keep em super-sharp I won't hunt with them.
The new diamond sharpeners do a very good job on 3 blade heads. Finish up by stroping them on a piece of cardboard box.
Great post. Arrow flight and accuracy far exceeds all the other stuff that folks get all caught up in. Most folks would be better served by spending more time tuning their set ups and learning to shoot better than arguing over broad heads and jumping on band wagons.
Roy, With the draw weight you shoot and you wanting to go over to the 3 blade, what i would suggest is going to a standard insert but shooting the Heavier weight VPA 3 blades. If you have a look at the heads you will see the difference in profile between the 150gr and the 200gr heads.
That longer profile i think you will find will penetrate better for you with the lighter bows.
If you shoot the 200gr Head with Standard insert you will be pretty close to the weight your shooting now. Thats what i would do.
Good luck
I have had GREAT success with 3 blade heads(Wensel Woodsmans)....from Bunnies to Bison. I too have found that they out penetrate some wider 2 blades in 3 different target mediums.
They also have consistently left great blood trails....don't ever recall being on a bad blood trail by anything I shot or anyone else I helped track.
I have passed through every hog I have shot with them, and buried the bison arrow to the fletch.
The 3 blades available now are getting better and better in quality also.
Nice to see you posting Andy.... :campfire:
QuoteOriginally posted by charles m:
Great post. Arrow flight and accuracy far exceeds all the other stuff that folks get all caught up in. Most folks would be better served by spending more time tuning their set ups and learning to shoot better than arguing over broad heads and jumping on band wagons.
I couldn't agree more.
I'm going to get the 175 grain and go with the 50 grain brass insert. I like that longer broadhead I think.
Hopefully a gob will find a 300 gn 1.5" 3 blade with a 100 gn insert lethal this weekend.
If an opportunity presents itsef, it will be the archer if it doesen't.
Great read Andy and Guru....Thank you!!!!
Quote" Great post. Arrow flight and accuracy far exceeds all the other stuff that folks get all caught up in. Most folks would be better served by spending more time tuning their set ups and learning to shoot better than arguing over broad heads and jumping on band wagons."
I couldn't agree more X 3. I would truly like to hear your life experiences first hand. Heck I'd just like to share a camp fire with you as your living the dream of most of us here! I'm impressed when you say some 3 bladed heads preform as good as you've experienced first hand on some of if not the very toughest big game animals on earth. To be honest I've tried 3 blade heads on lesser game but I have to admit I'm sharpendly challenged on 3 blades. Now on two blades I can sharpen them so that when they even get close to hair they just pop off!And yes my arrows fly like a laser and I have to wash off the dirt after the pass throughs. But this is on lesser game than your seeing. Thanks for your input on this forum good read for sure! Thanks!
TTT.
This is something everyone should read.
Good stuff Andy. I have generally had good results from three blade heads. With deer sized animals most of us who shoot bows in the 50lb range will have no troubles. The only exception could be taking shots out of treestands where there is a possibility of a high entry and no exit hole. I made the mistake of shooting a nice buck that was actually too close to my tree and my stand was twenty feet up due to background cover. The result was a high entry hole, no exit hole, and a difficult recovery. I could have avoided this by letting the buck move out a little further. My fault. I
I will say this though. I once shot a bull kudu from a ground blind in Namibia. I shot him with a two blade head. The shot was absolutely perfect (I have it on video). Through both lungs and the arrow was lying on the ground covered in blood. After that there was not a single drop of blood on the ground! The trackers had to follow the bull solely by hoof prints! I would have never believed it had I not witnessed it.
Was that a single or double bevel 2 blade head? Great thread! There is no better "testing" than first hand (or second hand in this case) experience.
Jon....I hear ya....sometimes things don't work out the other way either.
The Bison I shot at 15 yards quartering with a 2 blade hit a rib and only went in about 5 inches OUTSIDE the rib cage. Even though that head had the 'skip angle tanto tip' it skipped....right off a rib and right passed the next two never entering the chest cavity.
I got real lucky and the bull gave me another shot quartering at 35 yards, and I buried a WW to the fletch taking out both lungs.
Ttt