Am considering trying a "skinny string". Am I'm gonna gain much from a hunting distance perspective? I'm good to 27, 28 yards hunting. Weight wise, I shoot between 60 or 66lbs depending on which bow I'm shooting. Are they worth a try?
I went to one ,I think the skiny string caused my fingers to start to caullous and hurt like heck. Went back to a 14 strand and I am good to go. :dunno: :dunno:
I don't care for a fast flight string less than 12 strands. While you will get a faster arrow and have plenty of tensile strength, I like to have a bit of "comfort zone" in my setup. I know with my 16 strand string if a strand or two gets cut while out hunting I still have plenty of strength left in my string.
I use a "skinny" string. Yes they are worth it depending on who you are. I do not use D97 as they continue to stretch and seem to never stop. I use UltraCam. After the first 50 shots or so its done stretching.
It doesn't effect my fingers because I double wrap my serving so its about the same as when using 14 strands.
My actual chronograph readings, from B50 to 8 or 10 strand Ultracam is a 20 fps increase as an average out of my Silvertip.
I accidently posted on your duplicate thread, sorry. I would recommend an SBD skinny string (sponsors here). I did not have negative issues with release (sore fingers) as my string is served to the normal size.
While not noticing any appreciable difference in arrow trajectory... it is definitely quieter. My BW PSA III had limb savers and the string was padded PLUS two beaver hide silencers... I ordered my string with the puff ball silencers, took off the padding and limb savers and have a much quieter bow.
A quieter bow MAY not spook game as quickly. (Haven't hunted with the new string yet.)
Good luck!
20 fps??? Cuz that is a bunch...I'm already using fast flyte. So 10 fps maybe? Quieter though makes me think..
I had oliverstacy (Josh) make me a 10 strand string and I was shocked at the differance. I'm not a speed freak but there was a noticeable speed increase. It was enough of a differance that I have to shoot stiffer arrows!
Jason
I like skinnys on my lighter bows but prefer 14-16 on my 63# hunting bow. I tried a skinny on it but it hurt mt fingers but it was quiter and faster
I have 6 strand from A&H, they help most with low weight say 40# and a long draw length 31. I have a 27" draw length and shoot a 48# longbow.The 6 strand increased my speed by 5 ft persecond,over a 12 strand.A&h does not recomend using their 6 strand on bows over 53#.I like it ,it is quiet and helps my shooting .There is always 8 and 10 strand,Also my 12 strand is a little softer on the bow hand.
They can make a bow quieter, reduce hand shock, yup they are a little quicker.
I hate Dacron so thats not an option.
Eric
From Dacron to a standard FF is usually an average of about 8 fps. From a standard FF to a skinny FF (if it is built properly) will usually give an average of another 8 fps boost.
Of course all that depends on how well the bow & archer function together. As cj stated, he gets even more of a boost, but that's because he & his setup are in tune, and in tune with one another.
If a skinny FF string is biting your fingers, then it wasn't built properly. I build up the center serving on my strings to fit the nocks I use, which is normally equivalent in size to a 14 -16 strand string.
Rick
Oh, and P.S.
One of the foremost mistakes folks make when switching to a skinny FF string, is they try to use the same arrow.
99.9% of the time, you will need a much heavier spine shaft, and if you don't realize that, and work with it, then a skinny string isn't going to benefit you at all.
Rick
Can someone explain the "quieter"?
I've had the opposite experience. Of course, my experiences are limited to only 3 or 4 bows....all Toelke Whips 62-64" long. They come with a 12 strand ff, but i've tried some 8 strands and there was definitely more noise and some handshock that wasnt there qith the12 strand.
I really like the sbd strings. They are super quiet and if you are already shoting fast flight you won'e see a hugh difference in speed. If you sre shooting dacron the speed difference will be like a tank versus a porsche in a quarter mir drag race.
But in all instances on all bows I have expierenced them on, they quietened them dramatically, regardless of string choices.
20 fps? :scared: I think it makes a small difference in speed if you are going from a ff to a smaller ff string. If a small difference matters to you, then try it out - only costs you about $20. If you like what you are shooting probably not worth changing unless its time for a new string. If you don't like it, then you have a lighter packing back-up string. :D
I second Ultra-Cam cause it seems quiet and doesn't have many stretching issues. I feel confident with 8 strand pulling about 52.
TxAg - I can't wrap my mind around why it would be quieter - although I can see a different pitch like a guitar string (higher frequency). I wonder if any UT grads would know. :laughing:
Not all bows will benefit from a "skinny string" and not all shooters prefer them even if they do improve the "performance" of their bow. This is the main reason why we offer several different string choices. Of course you will never know if you will like one if you don't try one of the "performance" strings.
So here's an offer for you: Because the only way to know if you like a performance string is to try one, order one from us and if you don't like it, I will refund all of your money or make you a new "standard" string to replace the performance string with and I'll cover the postage to send you the replacement string should you not like the performance (skinny) string! Ok?
That is quite an offer............if I weren't already a skinny string user I'd definitely take you up on that!
QuoteOriginally posted by LimBender:
20 fps? :scared: I think it makes a small difference in speed if you are going from a ff to a smaller ff string. If a small difference matters to you, then try it out - only costs you about $20. If you like what you are shooting probably not worth changing unless its time for a new string. If you don't like it, then you have a lighter packing back-up string. :D
I second Ultra-Cam cause it seems quiet and doesn't have many stretching issues. I feel confident with 8 strand pulling about 52.
TxAg - I can't wrap my mind around why it would be quieter - although I can see a different pitch like a guitar string (higher frequency). I wonder if any UT grads would know. :laughing:
Haha, the only ones I know only duck hunt.
There you go--a definate "maybe".
How much you gain, if anything, depends on a ton of variables, including the bow, tuning, etc.
Ken Beck did a challenge--basically offered a free BW bow to anyone who could show a minimal speed gain (2 or 3 fps I think) by changing the string from their standard 14 strand Dynaflight '97. If you took the challenge and failed, you had to buy a BW at regular retail cost. As best I could find out, nobody took the challenge--that speaks for itself IMO. Might be some threads on that here if you look.
Quiet is a relative term, as is "skinny". I've never had to go to extremes to get a bow quiet--just takes some tuning know-how and some tinkering.
Being the in the string business, I pay a LOT of attention to who is shooting what, especially at the big tournaments like the IBO Traditional Worlds, and I watch some Olympic shooting on YouTube. I see the winning shooters with moderate, even "fat" strings--at least that's what I've noticed. The strings that Fred Bear, Ben Pearson, Howard Hill, etc. used for amazing shots and lots of dead animals were quite "fat" by today's standards.
That being said, if you are really curious, try one. I've tinkered with several different materials and strand counts, and personally haven't found any benefits to going with a tiny string/low strand count string on the bows I shoot. I do think you will gain more, performance-wise, with a lighter string on lighter draw weight bows...but I've never seen anything close to what others have gotten...maybe 2-4 fps.
A few strands of string material just doesn't weigh that much--especially after building up the serving area--and that's where any performance gain comes from.
But again, it's a reasonably cheap experiment--give it a whirl and see what your results are.
Chad
I have only used SBD bowstrings on all my bows for the last 2 years. Its and 8 strand string, double served to fit an Easton X nock and the loops are padded to 16 strands. These strings have performed flawlessly for me in every situation I have used them in. From hunting to 3D tournaments they really are worth the $20 they cost. They last a very long time and the way they quiet down a bow really has to be heard to be appreciated. I had been using 14 strand D97 bowstrings prior to switching to SBD strings and the sound the bow made at the shot was incredible. Some bows just couldn't be quieted with the D97. Especially the recurves. With the SBD D10 string, the bow is barely audible when shot. This is with only 2 cat whisker type string silencers on the bow string. The bows are shooting a 10GPP arrow 190+ FPS (52#@29" drawn a true 29"). Well worth the $ in IMHO. ~Steve
Eflander,
I'll take you up on that offer...I'll call you Monday.
I love the SBD strings. Performance, quality, and customer service second to none.
What Keith said.
Love the SBD string, gained 8-10 fps(according to my chrono) and a silent bow. Worth every penny.
I have used the SBD strings on my bows and they are quiet. The 8 strand is about equal to the 6 strand that I had John McCullough make for me. Both are quiet. The SBD string was made out of DY 10 and John's strings were made out of 450. Both good strings, fast and quiet.
My bows all were a 14 stand D97. I tried the skinnys and all I got was additional noise. I believe for me the thicker string was more stable and Im able too get off the string cleaner. Once I padded up the main serving and loops for my bow I notice no difference in speed or tuning so I decided to stick to the 14 strands and the extra durability it offers. I shoot 55 to 65 # bows.
SL
I'm going with Chad. I do not use less than 14 on anything 60# and under - 16 on any over 60#.
I know more folks who have tried and went back than who have stuck with the skinny's. I'm one of em. I can get the same results with a lighter arrow and a little more wool on the string.
Love them!
I have only little experience so far, but have noticed big gains in speed and quietness.
Still testing, expecting a new ultracam in the mail Monday or Tuesday. Can't wait to check it out.
for me, a low strand count ("skinny") bowstring isn't about a "performance boost" (arrow speed), it's about a quieter and perhaps more efficient modern hmpe bowstring. lots depends on the bow and the archer. there is no way to know what any bowstring will do for any bow, any arrows, or any archer, unless the archer invests the time and money in personal testing.
in building a low strand count bowstring, the string loops must be padded - this is true for either flemish or endless bowstrings, but more important for flemish since the loops on that string type aren't served.
why some folks think or say that a "skinny string" will hurt their fingers is beyond my understanding. all bowstrings need to have an appropriate center serving diameter to fit their arrows' nocks. with a low strand count bowstring, this will mean either increasing the serving thread diameter, or padding the center serving area, or both. the result will always be a center serving diameter that will feel the same to yer string fingers as your fatter bowstring has always felt to ya.
down to brass tacks, for me the advantage of a low strand count bowstring is a tad more "spring to the string". imo, less strands of uber non-stretch/creep hmpe will make for a "softer" string on release. this is just easier on the stick bow limbs, and this has always been my perception with low strand count strings, and i have built them for decades.
since most all hmpe (High Modulus PolyEthylene) fibers (pick a brand - dynaflight, fast flight, 450+, D10, F8125, whatever), will break in excess of 100#, it's easy to see how an 8 strand hmpe bowstring will have greater than 800# of tensile strength - far more than needed for any 70# stick bow, let alone a 50# bow.
i'm not advocating or dissing "skinny strings". only you can tell whether or not they're worth using with a particular stick bow. just another tackle variable to think about ... or not.
IMO you are better off checking the type and legnth of serving on a string than string count.
Going from a 8'' long suregrip serving to a 5 1/2'' long mono serving dose wonders for me.
I use 6 strand 450+ on my bows. On my bows they reduce hand shock, are quieter and do improve performance.
I did chrono mine several years ago, but I don't remember the gain in FPS. I don't really care about speed anymore, other than my bow performs well with good trajectory with a heavy arrow. The numbers don't matter anymore. A friend and I tested over 300 bows and found that most perform very well and when a heavy arrow is used even the fastest FF recurve with light arrows will be close in speed to a D shaped longbow when a heavy hunting arrow is shot from both. Therefore to me numbers don't mean anything since I am a longbow shooter.
I find the 450+ last long and hardly has any stretch to it. My hunting bow is 60#. I have been shooting the same sting on the bow for four years. I shoot a lot and the string appears to still be in good shape, but I am going to retire it to my backup string soon.
Since I make my own strings I can do what ever I want at a low per string cost. I have made many low strand strings from , D97 to D75 thin on to 452x and now using trophy . I don't worry about any speed gains but what I like most is the way it quiets a bow down and no shock . I can make a 12 strand string with trophy and its tiny . I have invested the time testing what I like and don't and will be staying with skinny . Drew
Skinny strings bring out the best in all my bows.
I like skinny and carbon and single bevel because i still want to moose and deer hunt with my recurve a few more years.
QuoteOriginally posted by 3arrows:
I like skinny and carbon and single bevel because i still want to moose and deer hunt with my recurve a few more years.
how do those items you've mentioned allow you to extend your hunting?
Rob,i can do the same with 50# that i once did with 60#.
Another vote for SBD strings. SBD is a pleasure to do business with.
I tested them on several bows and with several different archers and I chronoed them.
Silent: definitely much more silent!
Speed: as rule of thumb: 1 fps more for every strand less you are using. i.e.: when you are shooting 14 strands and move over to a skinny string from 8 strands you will most likely gain 6 fps.
Bite in fingers: definitely not
Handshock: becomes less
So I never looked back and always use SBD skinny strings on my bow for tow years now.
Have been using six strand strings for years and I love them, quiet and fast.
Love the SBD D10,quiet, noticably faster and great people to do business with. :archer:
Adam and I have been fans of reduced strand strings for several years, main reason is a quiet shot. Recently we have also gone from 6 strands to 8 strands of D 10 for our 50-55# bows they accept more abuse and last longer.
D10 is good, no doubt about it. But I think you can do even better with ultracam.
FWIW I've been tinkering with strings in various materials--skinny and not--for around 20 years.
Skinny strings certainly aren't anything new--Mr. Dan Quillian was advocating them when 450+ was still 450 Premium, and original FF was still the standard for "high performance" strings--back in the late 80's, I think?.
With the way every improvement that's been made to materials since B-35 seems to add another 10 or so fps to the shot, we should have traditional bows breaking the 300 fps mark by now! (insert sarcasm smile here)
Somehow though, a hickory selfbow with a 14-16 strand dacron string shooting 10 gpp will still shoot 165+ fps even with a fairly lousy release, and 200 fps with 10 gpp is still the "holy grail" with even the most modern recurves and longbows touting carbon lams, foam cores, and super-sonic strings.
I've made well over ten thousand strings (quit counting several years ago) and been involved with two sucessful string making videos, besides talking to lots of string makers, accomplished tournament shooters and hunters, several of the folks at BCY, and tons of regular folks like myself. I feel comfortable saying I've put my fair share of time in with strings. I'm not an expert by any stretch, but I'm not a beginner either.
I've seen lots of claims made by some fairly well-known folks (not string makers), ranging from flemish strings are "dangerous" to a string causing a bow limb to twist to giant performance differences just between flemish and endless. Makes me a bit of a skeptic I reckon, because I know none of these hold water.
Anyhow...the point remains the same. The answer to the question is a definate "maybe" as far as getting a big difference in results from different strings--performance or otherwise. What I've seen over the years is primarily a Ford/Chevy/Dodge type of argument--which one is best depends on who you ask.
I've been tinkering with the new 8190 lately. 12 strands makes a tiny string--really tiny--about the same size as 6 strands of Dynaflight '97. It's quiet, at least on my longbow--almost quiet enough to hunt with without any silencers...but it's not a lot different in that respect than every other string I've tried on it...8125, 450+, Dynaflight '97 in various strand counts. It's the strongest 100% Dyneema material on the market--very durable, very low stretch/creep--but again, not a huge difference vs. 8125, Dynaflight '97, 450+, etc.
The biggest difference I've noticed is when switching from dacron to a HMPE ("fast flight") type material--usually the hand shock is greatly reduced (I can't deal with hand shock). Other than that...not so much.
Easiest thing to do is try different things and see what you like. Lots of folks don't mind spending a ton of money trading/collecting different bows...spend a fraction of that tinkering with a string here and there...you might just be surprised at what you learn.
Chad
As a side note, BCY doesn't offer Dynaflight '10 anymore. They do offer Force 10, which is basically the same material with a different wax content (according to BCY).
If you want to increase arrow performance and quiet down the bow than a skinny string is a good idea. If you like louder slower bows well then that is your prerogative.
I'm still curious how they make a bow quieter. Anyone care to enlighten me. I'm genuinely curious.
QuoteOriginally posted by TxAg:
I'm still curious how they make a bow quieter. Anyone care to enlighten me. I'm genuinely curious.
the low strand count adds some measure of "spring" to the string. a shock absorber of sorts. there is no substitute for doing your owning bowstring testing, and that includes deciding on a string fiber and strand count for a particular bow - each will have its own likes and dislikes. let the bow tell you what makes it happiest.
interested in seeing a mechanical release chrono of these huge increases in arrow speed....I know myself I can see fluctuations on the chrono of 10fps easily with a slightly different release, being a hair overdrawn, etc trying to do it with marks on an arrow shaft...there is always something different on every pull.
Txag- I shoot ultracam strings which after a day of shooting, and the string settles, it flat out has no creep/stretch.
I know my bow is ALOT quieter with ultracam than d97, and I truly believe that is why. No stretch, takes the twang out.
Brock, I know exactly what you are saying. I have noticed the same things that you mentioned.
But, I have shot the same bow using d97 and using ultracam, many many shots with each string. Also, many different tabs, gloves, and arrows.
The performance difference has been both significant and obvious in my dealings.
You guys should talk to rick Barbee here, great Guy to talk to, lots of knowledge on the topic
I have tried skinny strings, and they work great! That said I just prefer a fatter string. I usually make my strings from 14 to 16 strands. This gives me a perfect nock fit and good arrow speed. I have never seen the major speed increase some people claim to get with skinny strings. I usually get about a 3-4 fps increase going from a 14 strand string to an 8 strand string.
QuoteOriginally posted by Brock:
interested in seeing a mechanical release chrono of these huge increases in arrow speed....I know myself I can see fluctuations on the chrono of 10fps easily with a slightly different release, being a hair overdrawn, etc trying to do it with marks on an arrow shaft...there is always something different on every pull.
i seriously doubt seeing that much increase in arrow speed between 8 and 16 strand strings. maybe a few to mid single digit fps at most. arrow speed is not, should not, be a prime reason for low strand count bowstrings.
I'm not sure about speed, but I shoot a 6-strand SBD skinny string on my 40# Tomahawk. It made it a different bow from its original 16 or 18 strand string (That's what they ship with). It's more quiet, and much less vibration after the shot (yes, it did have some). Less 'thwang'.
I just ordered a leftiesRus bikini string with silencers for my Titan. It will be 8-strands. We'll see. Both are sponsors here.
Marco
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
QuoteOriginally posted by Brock:
interested in seeing a mechanical release chrono of these huge increases in arrow speed....I know myself I can see fluctuations on the chrono of 10fps easily with a slightly different release, being a hair overdrawn, etc trying to do it with marks on an arrow shaft...there is always something different on every pull.
i seriously doubt seeing that much increase in arrow speed between 8 and 16 strand strings. maybe a few to mid single digit fps at most. arrow speed is not, should not, be a prime reason for low strand count bowstrings. [/b]
my thoughts as well Rob....I find it hard to believe that big of an actual increase from a tuned setup with dacron to skinny string....my experience has been pretty negligible with the fast flight type strings for most part....some slight differences but nothing worth making me choose one over the other. I really dont care about speed....if arrow makes a thud hitting target...flies true...and I dont notice any extreme sounds coming from shot...then I am good.
QuoteOriginally posted by Brock:
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
QuoteOriginally posted by Brock:
interested in seeing a mechanical release chrono of these huge increases in arrow speed....I know myself I can see fluctuations on the chrono of 10fps easily with a slightly different release, being a hair overdrawn, etc trying to do it with marks on an arrow shaft...there is always something different on every pull.
i seriously doubt seeing that much increase in arrow speed between 8 and 16 strand strings. maybe a few to mid single digit fps at most. arrow speed is not, should not, be a prime reason for low strand count bowstrings. [/b]
my thoughts as well Rob....I find it hard to believe that big of an actual increase from a tuned setup with dacron to skinny string....my experience has been pretty negligible with the fast flight type strings for most part....some slight differences but nothing worth making me choose one over the other. I really dont care about speed....if arrow makes a thud hitting target...flies true...and I dont notice any extreme sounds coming from shot...then I am good. [/b]
i do care about arrow speed, up to a point - but i won't nit pick a few fps. ;)
I shoot a "kinda skinny string"(8-strand of UltraCam). Like you Rob, I really just care about "quiet". Quiet is good!!
Fast is nice, but if the target is gone(because of "TWANG") when the arrow arrives....then want have you really gained?
Some people may have a quiet bow at 14-16 strands, but for me 6-8 strands works very well.
Joe
I have been using a 10 strand on a 55 lb Tall Tines recurve and I am having problems with noise and string stretch. I'm going back to a 14 or a 16 strand string.
Well heres my take on skinny strings. I've been making my own endless skinnies for several years now and can't see me ever going back to B50. And let me add I'm the worlds worst to accept change. I hated the original FF strings and swore I'd never use them.
But the benefits of using a HP (high preformance) strings are in ALL catagories. I think the "huge" speed increases can usually be traced back to previously used poorly made tuned equip such as to long a string or overly twisted, over built, excessive string silencing and or too tight a nock fit.I'd state my true chorongrahped speed increases but some would say no way that's impossible. But with that said it's no where near the huge increases some have seen. I've spent too much money on HP string materials that I truthfully thought were junk. It's a funny thing cheap string material stretches but expensive material creeps! Lets just say alot of expensive string material just keeps getting longer! And then theres the one final thought why I think bow string makers hate them and why some folks think there is no big difference. That is it takes several attempts of string making for a individual bow to come up with the PERFECT starting length for a individual bow and thus shooter. I had my jig marked for B50 and could whip them out no problem. First several strings I made out of HP string material with my old lengths were way off and lets just say twisting it up IS NOT the answer to get the benefit of a HP skinny string. JMHO your mileage may vary.
QuoteOriginally posted by 3Bears:
I have been using a 10 strand on a 55 lb Tall Tines recurve and I am having problems with noise and string stretch. I'm going back to a 14 or a 16 strand string.
If you are having a problem with stretch then its the wrong material. 10 strands of most of the newer materials would not be moving on a 55# bow.
I just got a R/D bow that has a skinny string on it, it just doesnt feel right to me. It kinda scares me a little. But its made for the bow so I shoot it.
I have shot skinny strings a lot through a chronograph, first with fast flight and then with 450P. Using endless loop strings on 5 different Fedora one piece recurves from 45-57#, and comparing a 16 strand Dacron 50 with 8 strand high performance strings (with an extra set of silencers on the high performance strings) the increase of speed averaged 10-12fps. (The high performance strings each weighed 100 grains less than the Dacron 50 string.)
The trade off was increased bow noise, which required padding the string grooves and the extra set of silencers. The fast flight string crept; the 450P did not and lasted at least three times longer than Dacron 50.
On longbows, comparing 15 strand Dacron 50 and 450P using Flemish twist, the increase averaged 3-4 fps. (I was afraid to try 8 strands on the longbows without padding the loops.). The noise level for both was similar.
I very recently have tried an 8 strand 450P on a self bow using a Flemish twist (and padded loops) and compared it to a 16 strand Dacron 50. The noise level was similar, but the speed was visibly faster with the 450P. (I couldn't check the speed difference with my chronograph yet; it is loaned out.)
I hope this helps.
The noise level was similar for both strings.