Trad Gang

Are there any structual advantages or purpose for having a riser with an I beam or is it just to add a contrasting accent?  I must admit those 59ers from John M. look pretty darn sharp.

Thanks,

CB

I have and will build both.some woods are stronger in a riser when used as a ibeam .Other  than that there isnt any advantage.It  gives a different look to the riser that some people like better.

You may also look at Bigfoot bows.Kirk makes some nice looking ones.

Yes, Kirk has been putting out some really nice stuff for sure. He is on my shortlist.  ~CB

Yes, stronger overall and if a crack starts on one side or the other, it will probably stop at the I-beam before any major damage to bow or shooter occurs.

Ah yes!  Now that makes sense...  I've always prescribed to a form follows function thoery. Was struggling with the idea that bowyers such as John and Kirk would incorporate a feature based on cosmetics.  

Remember back in the day some car makers offered the Landau model, which was the vinyl over half the roof of the car...I never understood that.

Thanks Craig!

Keith

I build all my bows with a phenolic I beam. I use both wood and phenolic and the I beam is hidden a lot of times depending on the bow but they are there. Its not for looks. I don't have to replace cracked or broken risers or worry about anyone haveing a riser blow up on them. Its worththe extra work in that alone. It also produces a stiffer riser ,. faster bow. less hand shock. ect.
(http://eaglewingarchery.i8.com/images/PaulGustafson/pgtal13.jpg)
You can see the I beam in this bow only through the grip area. That 1/4 in strip of phenolic runs through the entire riser
God bless you all, Steve

Im not going to bank on any riser being stronger than another.Knock on wood     :goldtooth:    i havnt had a riser problem in any of my bows for years.The truth is,if they are going to fail they will no matter what or how there made.Example,compound risers of all kinds of so called non- braking metals and construction are still blowing up.I wouldn't ever recommend to one of my customers to go with a ibeam construction because its stronger .I tell them go with what you like the look of.

mike, Stronger is a fact, not some made up fiction Bro. Its not something I just decided to do and use for a sales pitch. When you turn phenolic up edge ways in a riser it makes that riser much stiffer than the same riser without it. Its a matter of science. I tell my customers it is stronger because its a fact. They are stronger. If for some reason you do not believe that then its just a matter of experience. Not necessary with actionwood risers but it certaily is not going to hurt them.

I can use wood that are highly figured when I build my risers with phenolic I beam and glass and wood crosscuts that I could not use otherwise. I can do that and feel very little if any flex in that riser and have great confidence in it staying together using high performance high poundage limbs.
Without that structure we can literally have a time bomb on our hands.

God bless you all, Steve

Wow,didnt want to get personal,didnt think i wrote that at all.I think my experience already speaks for it self. Cant we just get along.I still believe i stated a fact.A riser"can"fail and always will no matter what they are made of.Act of god i guess.

When you build risers out of all wood, you are at the mercy of the wood and the grain configuration, and it's only as strong as it's weakest point.

Different shaped risers, with different fade angles, and different limb configurations all apply the loads differently. Some riser shapes need more reinforcement than others.

When using laminated products like action wood with the grain running belly to back i see no reason for an I beam other than looks, or added mass weight.

The type of I-beam material used makes a big difference too. The G-10 material i use a lot of has incredible strength. In heavier poundage bows it not only insures the riser is strong enough, but actually improves performance by eliminating riser flex.

One more advantage to the G-10 is the added mass weight it gives the riser. I wish the stuff wasn't so darn expensive.   :rolleyes:  

there's my .02  cents worth there..  Kirk

Mike , I wasn't being personal and am not offended nor did I intend to offend. Lets just say I heartily disagree with the statement you made about riser strength. Thats all bro. I have looked at your bows and see no need for phenolic I beams in the ones I have seen. However you start doing what I am doing and you will find our real quick about how contrary exotic woods can be and some you would least expect to break will do so. Anyway we all have different experiences and mine have been that to build a basicaly bomb proof riser I use an I beam.

God bless you all, Steve

I never could understand why it is called an "I" beam in bows. Flat Bar yes. I have worked with structural shapes for a good few years and If I asked for "I" beams I would expect them to be shaped like an "I" .

Personally I like the idea that it adds strength but unfortunately I don' t like the look of it if I could have it & not see it that would be good.

Personally I like the idea that it adds strength but unfortunately I don' t like the look of it if I could have it & not see it that would be good.

I think it allows you to use woods that would normally be too unstable.  Kind of makes an internal skeleton.
Here is one I just finished out of Walnut...would never trust it without the ¼" I-beam or "Flat bar".  I have never had one crack or break when they are built like this!
(http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm224/jaredmar11/walnutosage09.jpg)

Nice job Jared. Love to see the entire bow .
God bless you all, Steve

of course you are right about I-beams Pete... and if you look at Jared's and Sixby's bows the front and back overlays do make it an official I beam.

i personally don't care to offset mine to hide it.
if someone wants a wood sight window, i prefer to use a wood I-beam and add fiberglass accents rather than offsetting the phenolic.

i suppose i could add a veneer over the G-10 in the sight window do to cover it.

Is this something you would like to explore Lyonel?

No thank Kirk, but I did think of using phenolic in the centre section of the riser in the picture I sent you.
Sorry for answering in this thread.

CB, I have a Longwalker longbow from Chuck Deshler, (TwoTracks). I don't know why he puts it in there and I don't care. I like how the bow shoots, and that is my main concern. I've shot thousands of bows, and it always boils down to that, did the bowyer build a product I want to shoot. I like sixby's exotic woods but those carbon limbs are butt ugly. If I liked how it shot, I'd get some limb covers and cover them up. Some times aesthetics does matter too. I think when you see bowyers use the I beam on a regular basis or not, it is determined on whether they think it is necessary to the market they are building for. It ends up being good for everyone!

Are there really have a lot of bows that get cracked risers?

I can understand the added strength and a "might as well" type attitude towards putting it in needed or not.

I hear about the occasional limb breaking for one reason or another but I've never heard of a riser breaking...except in some self bow type bows.....maybe I just haven't been around long enough..lol

just curious.

I didn't know Risers were prone to breaking either. Then I ordered a custom from a fine bowyer and I couldn't get 100% exotic wood in the riser and have it warranted for FF. I had to have dymondwood in the riser to get FF warranty.  I thought FF was only accommodated in the limb tips. Apparently the riser can be impacted by too much stress as well.

I should have know though. I know a fellow who had two Bear Alaskans blow up at full-draw (metal riser compnd) about 30 years ago. He still wears a scar from one of them.

If this makes you all feel better.well made risers by all the fine pro's i know should last fine with normal use.A dry fire is most common what will fracture a riser,even more so in heavy weight bows.We all make are risers to be as strong as possible.Most risers are fine with no worries with normal use.

QuoteAre there really a lot of bows that get cracked risers?

John, This is something that bowyer's, and  bow manufacturers don't really to talk about much. but it happens more than people realize. lord knows i had my share let go while i was getting the bugs worked out of my Sasquatch riser. i finally learned where the weakest spots were and use reinforcement accordingly.


   

QuoteI ordered a custom from a fine bowyer and I couldn't get 100% exotic wood in the riser and have it warranted for FF. I had to have dymondwood in the riser to get FF warranty.  

Roy, Fast flight string does not stretch. So once the arrow leaves the string, the limbs absorb any energy that isn't transferred to the shaft. Typically if you use heavier shafts that shock doesn't about to much. But in the case of using light weight shafts, or worse yet, a dry fire. A lot of that shock goes into the riser. a fast flight string would amplify that shock where a Dacron string would act as a shock absorber.

the part about diamond wood vs 100% exotics has to do with the wood lamination process when footing risers more than anything. I've seen all wood bows hold up great for years, then get dry fired one time and have the riser come apart like a bomb. Diamond wood is an epoxy impregnated material.

The funny part about this to me is that if someone ordered a diamond wood riser from me, i wouldn't warranty the diamond wood.    :readit:  

Bowyer's are funny guys. we all have our own quirks.

Ask Pete Ward about diamond wood some time. i don't care for the stuff myself.

Dunno how many risers "fail" but you only have to be even NEAR one ONCE to have it make an impression!

Many years ago, a guy was shooting not far from me at B'mo and trying out a well-known bowyer's one piece.  It was a solid wood riser. Beautiful, too.

There was an unseen "burl" inside below the shelf...it looked like you'd make a fist and cradle the fist in the other hand with fingers wrapped around your fist... It just let GO!

No way to see that in there! The guy ended up with broken glasses and stitches. The bowyer ended up with a huge investment lost and a red face!

It only has to happen ONCE if you're the bowyer or you're the shooter!

I like plain wood, but will differ to a bowyer as to what is safe!

Doc,That is one of the reasons I use an I-Beam type riser. It only takes once for me to run the saw into a solid piece of 8/4 wood and find a burl or a void. I use thin stock and laminate it. This gives me more strength,and a look that gives more options to me and the customer. Lots of combinations to put together now. And the piece of mind knowing that having an un-seen hazard in the wood is cut down by a great margin.

CTT
EDIT TO ADD:
I have,do and will continue to build solid wood risers. I have just adopted the I-Beam as part of my style. I like the looks and the strength.

Gentlemen,

Let me start by praising the civility of this thread. I'm batting a thousand for posting threads that bring out some level of hostility. It can be quite discouraging.  So thank you.

I've test driven maybe a dozen bows out of the Classifieds now and am currently on my fourth custom, which should make it up here in the next two weeks.  I have dealt with several bowyers who I've had to beg for all wood risers and other who won't even consider it especially on a 2 piece, and others that have no problem with all wood 2 piece (Bama Bows).  Thanks Nate!

Oddly enough, I've never owned a bow with "I-beam" construction and after reading through some of the bowyer responses I am left with the feeling that a bowyer would be remiss to not include the extra security or safety of G-10 phenolic through a riser.  Hmmm.

Well heres the one thats coming. South Cox put this together for me and I'm going to say even without phenolic I-beam I will feel confident shooting this beauty.
 (http://i632.photobucket.com/albums/uu47/chromebuck/2012-03-07112153.jpg)

Awesome input from all!    :thumbsup:

I don't have the experience of most of you that have responded here.  I can say that I have had 5 of the ILF risers I made for my self fail.  They all broke thru the grip area.  These were all made with 1/4" flat lams [7] laid up parallel to the string.  I was shooting lite arrows at 90 meters.  I am now using a phenolic to avoid this.
MAP

Got a heck of a start going there.
Gonna be PRETTY!

  :thumbsup:    :thumbsup:

Jeez...If I didn't trust my bower to know his design and trade...I'd be quaking in my boots right now....   :eek:

I've had one riser break in my hand...and that is one too many. It was not the fault of the bowyer. I had a defective (read old) nock that broke when I released, thereby creating a sort of dry fire. I was using a FF string. Had the riser been built using an I-beam, I seriously doubt the break would have occurred. FWIW, a poster here, who is a proponent of I-beams but was not the builder of this bow, repaired the riser and it now functions as new.

QuoteOriginally posted by Andy Cooper:
I've had one riser break in my hand...and that is one too many. It was not the fault of the bowyer. I had a defective (read old) nock that broke when I released, thereby creating a sort of dry fire. I was using a FF string. Had the riser been built using an I-beam, I seriously doubt the break would have occurred. FWIW, a poster here, who is a proponent of I-beams but was not the builder of this bow, repaired the riser and it now functions as new.

Andy Could add that the broken riser was built by an extremely competant builder who is famous for the quality of work.
I examined the riser and found no fault with the construction of the riser at all. I reglued it and deem it safe for a lighter set of limbs. I also know that his bow could not have broken with an I beam of phenolic in it. It would have been impossible.

Here is where we run into problems. When we build with all wood risers and add high performance , high poundage limbs. I have even seen actionwood risers break across the lams from the bolt to the bottom of the sight window.
Phenolic sandwich construction where the phenolic is unbroken and laid in the riser verticaly eliminates the flex to the a point where this cannot happen.
I have been building carbon composit limbs for oveer 5 years now. Perhaps that is why I have run into these problems. However most of them are observations over 50 years of owning hundreds of bows and a pro archery shop where I have replaced , fixed a lot of broken bows. That experience caused me to seek a way to eliminate this problem. I would say that over 90 percent of broken stick bows broke through the sight window to the bottom of the grip. I have even seen this happen with onepiece bow and seen one that literally exploded. One time is too many in my estimation. So for me its I beam construction.
God bless you all, Steve

I'll just add this one observation:  Most of us fallable humans have long  memories on bad experiences: If a blonde burns you bad, you might marry a brown haired gal!  :)

Being 15' from that shooter I outlined when a hidden defect IN THE WOOD, almost took his eye out, I remembered!

I also don't shoot heavey draw bows anymore, but an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I know bowyers who will just cut the wood like others mentioned and then glue up reversing the grain to gain strength and stability.

There are hundreds of ways to skin a cat and it appears it's largely an issue with heavier draws... but I was raised by a cabinet maker and love grain in wood...but know the more swirls and beauty, the more possible weakness.

So grand that there is enough bowyers out there so that everyone can find what they want! We are surely in a grand time to be archers!

Dave, indeed we are...I-beam or not there are some awesome creations going on and this site has offered us a window into them all.  

One last question.  As this thread has generated some level of concern for me could someone please quantify heavy poundage.  All my bows are in the 51-54# range and I'm hoping thats not pushing the envelope.

Have a great weekend!

  :campfire:  

Keith

There is no question that an I beam riser is stronger and less prone to failure. I will not build a bow over 55# unless I use an I beam.

I tested a heavy weight (72# @ 28) drew the bow to 29" (about 75#) with a pully system, held for about 30 seconds and the riser exploded. It broke in the sight window as Sixby suggested.
I feel that at some point with normal use this bow would have failed and probably hurt someone, that is scarry to me

James

This year is the 30th Anniversary of Zipper Bows. Never has there been a phenolic I beam in any of our risers. Until about 8 years ago there was not any phenolic anywhere in the riser. How have we survived?
We also have less than one failure a year and it is very rare for that failure to be a riser.It is almost always a limb wedge.
Chromebuck if you trust the man building your bow.Let him decide how it is built not info you got of the net.
Bill

I'm surprised that bow builders are actually saying that a phenolic I beam does not significantly strengthen a riser. Its not a putdown of their bows if their design, woods ect do not require it or that they feel that the benefit does not justify the extra work and cost.

I can understand not needing to do it if their risers is heavy enough like Black Widows with a lot of phenolic and or glass added as beauty stripes to not need it or if they are not using fancy woods or if they are using actionwood.

I know that cutting my risers past center 3/16 and making shelves close to the hand, using exotic fancy woods ect that my risers definately benefit using the phenolic. I also know that phenolic laid up edgewise in the riser significantly improves on riser stiffness and strength. Its a scientific fact and should be past disagreement IMHO.

:deadhorse:     :deadhorse:    :deadhorse:

:deadhorse:    Amen Kirk.
Nowhere did I say phenolic does not strengthen a riser.
We all know that shooting a stick bow is 90% mental. You guys have Chromebuck so concerned that his new bow will break that he is second guessing it and has not ever received it yet. How do you think it will shoot for him if he is thinking about it breaking every time he pulls the string?I'm not saying don't present your opinion. That's not it at all. Give the man your experience and let him decide.
For what its worth flexion test have shown that phenolic is not the stiffest thing you can put in a riser. Dymalux is stiffer but that means little. If you don't believe me talk to the boys at A&H.They have the equipment to test such things.
This is all I'm going to say on the subject.We dont all have to agree.
Bill

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chromebuck:
Dave, indeed we are...I-beam or not there are some awesome creations going on and this site has offered us a window into them all.  

One last question.  As this thread has generated some level of concern for me could someone please quantify heavy poundage.  All my bows are in the 51-54# range and I'm hoping thats not pushing the envelope.

Have a great weekend!

     :thumbsup: