I am curious what makes a bow more forgiving on spine than a similar bow. I've struggled with this one from a well know bowyer for awhile now. I love the bow but have noticed that depending on how consistent my release is I can shoot anywhere from 80-85's, to on a different day down to 7075s. There's no short draw involved, I hold longer than most. Pretty diligent on bh. the only thing left is release.
With that in mind, other bows I've owned in the past are much easier to tune. This bow shoots well, but finding THE arrow has been a royal PAIN! Just about when I think I've got it, my 80lb spines will come out stiff and the 73's will be perfect.
So, just what makes a bow so much more forgiving. What kind of mods can be made if any to help with some of this? I thought about sending them (I have 3) back having them all cut to centershot. I'm not worried about what tourny's call a bow as much as I am about hunting.
I type this as I ponder what shafts to order......flustered!
I think bows that are cut past center are more forgiving then bows cut off center.
I have bows cut 1/8 inch from center, to center and 3/16-inch past center. The past center should be the easiest to tune, but for me, they're the hardest. I invariably have to shoot a very stiff arrow or build out the side plate. On the other hand, I find my cut to center recurves, and cut 1/8 from center longbows shoot a wide range of wood spines well -- from bow weight at my draw to 20# more.
I don't know the geometry of it, but when the string slips off the fingers, it moves to the left for a right handed shooter. Having the arrow pointed left of the string to begin with, rather than bisecting the string, seems to somehow get the arrow bending the proper amount at the proper time and works better with a finger release.
You could be having problems with your form. Plucking will send the arrow left (appearing stiff). When your release is consistent, do you shoot both weight arrow well? All your shafts are the same diameter, right. Changes in shaft diameter will change arrow flight/impact.
My ACS CX's are like that-shoot 60/65 and up to 80/85-mind you that is with fletched arrows. Bareshaft tuning the bows and I get fussier about spine, like JRY said riser cut past center helps a lot.
I find that bows that have greater vertical, lateral and tortional stability in the limbs are much more forgiving for errors made at release. I believe that this accounts for many archers' inability to ever feel comfortable with bows of different designs. Tuning arrows becomes easier when the limbs have a more dependable tracking and cast and which minimize the errors imparted by the shooter, and not only the specific spine of the arrow shaft.
Mark
I often hear that longer limbs and deeper cores lend to a more stable, tunable bow that is more forgiving of errors whether or not they are cut to center.
I don't know if that is true for sure or not.
Higher brace height will give the arrow a better shot at paradox, all other things being equal.
I'm just tinkering (cabin fever)...shooting some bareshafts in the house. I get consisent results most of the time, have a wide array of spines to tinker with. Just when I think I've got the sweet spot, wamo.
AdAST, explain.... Also where in KS are you? I'll be there in Apr chasing thunderchiks again!
Dan: For me the deciding factor is how my broadheads shoot. I'm a bowhunter, as well, so my efforts are all focused on getting the broadhead to go where I want it. I have found past center shot is easier, higher FOC is easier, four fletch is easier and bare shafting is the key for me. It always gives me the best arrow shaft/point weight combo that lets me shoot broadheads perfectly.
By the way, if your release is a "problem" I would recommend getting the Masters of the Bare Bow DVD series and take some advice from Rod Jenkins and Larry Yien. Learning to use proper back tension is a really big key ingredient to consistent shooting.
Dan: For me the deciding factor is how my broadheads shoot. I'm a bowhunter, as well, so my efforts are all focused on getting the broadhead to go where I want it. I have found past center shot is easier, higher FOC is easier, four fletch is easier and bare shafting is the key for me. It always gives me the best arrow shaft/point weight combo that lets me shoot broadheads perfectly.
Thanks Bill.
I also like bareshafting. I tinker with group stuff once I get on with bareshafting. I dont shoot 4 fletch though have considered it more than a few times.
I've tinkered with this bow for awhile now. Its been close for a long time and I thought my FOC was just off. I normally dont check it but after making this switch to doug fir, it got the better of me a little while back, and after testeing a few different sets I was 12-14% foc. Not extreme but a bit higher than I normally shoot. I've got a bunch of bareshafts to tinker with in different lengths.
I think its more than likely me, afterall I'm far from flawless LOL! But to have this big of a spine shift, has got me head scratching, its been this way since day one with her. Never had issues like this with anything else.
I thought I was on till I capped crested and fletched, than thought I was stiff after it was all said and done. Mind you its close, but I know she's not flying perfect and it irks me to no end lol. (mind you this is after a turkey, black bear and grizzly have been shot with this bow).
Anyways all this has made me ask the question why some are so darn easy to tune and some are a royal bun burner! 8 months of cold, dark, overworked conditions makes ones mind go into overdrive.
Rods gonna be up this way doing a class...man alive I wish i could swing the price and day off (and 800 mile round trip drive) to sit in on it!
Let me start by saying I'm no expert...
You have covered everything I could think of with the exception of the bow's grip. I recently picked a new bow that has a very small grip on it and I have very large paws. My arrows fly like darts, they're tuned well to the bow. Just like you mentioned I use good BT, lock in anchor, no creep and where in the world is this left and right coming from. The small grip on this new bow has been taking me to school. Check the grip difference out and let us know if may be a problem for you. Good Luck!!!
Couple of things I would consider Dan. First is finding the best matching arrow. I'm not talking about matching spine but rather how well the arrow is "in tune" with the bow.
Second, I would try different types of strings. Personally, I like the low stretch materials for hunting, but most times I get better flight using the stretcher Dacron material.
How long is the bow????? I have trouble with bows 58" and less in getting any real consistancy with my release. With higher poundage it gets worse and I need longer bows..........fat old fingers............
I find that the farther away from center shot you get the more picky your bow will be when it comes to tuning. A bow that is cut past center will always be more tolerant of different arrows than a bow that is not cut to center
Don't forget that a jerk in your bow arm, or a twist in your release, or too much/too little upward pressure in your string hand will also make your release variable. A particular bow could cause you to release in such a way as to cause your arrow to hit the riser instead of clearing it.
I like my bow to be just shy of center shot, the window is actually cut past center then built back out when tuning. Someone much wiser than me (Paul Comstock I think) said that if the window is shy of center the arrow will flex more consistenly each and every shot. I certainly can't prove or disprove that thinking, it just made sense at the time. I know even how hard the material the sideplate is made of will have an affect on how the arrow shoots.
I dont like short bows...everything i own well I should say mostly own is 66 or 68" gear. I have a couple shorter bows I will never let go and one I am thinking needs to go on a bear hunt, I prefer the longer bows over all. I also have tweaked strings and such, mostly shooting d97, have gone from 15 to 12 to now 8 strands. I like to tinker until I find the spot. d97 has treated me well, though I might jump back up to a 12 strander in this bow, as the increase in spine needed with the smaller string was more than I expected.
I guess this post took a turn to tuning this bow, when I guess the main question is what makes one bow more 'shooter friendly' over another. What in design from bowyer to bowyer attributes to this. I've owned quite a few bows over the last 21 years, and still own more than I should probably admit too LOL. Have noticed some bows like my old style checkmate crusader was a dream to shoot and other bows I couldnt get an arrow to come out of anything less than sideways.
As for this bow, I love it. Its been well to me, shot 3 firsts with it in my bowhunting career..a nebraska longbeard, Black bear up here and last fall my first Grizzly at 5 steps. Honestly its a great bow (I own three identical ones). I have noticed this one is more touchy than SOME (not all) other bows I have shot in years past. I have no intent on letting any of them go...actually contemplating a few more! the bowyers a pleasure to deal with, and the bow is a dream to shoot, smooth, quite and accurate.
Its probably more likely me than anything. just thought I'd throw it out there...... Long winters ;) .
Dan I would personally start with checking string aligment on the bow and sighting down the limbs from the belly side. There are alot of bows out there that the bowyers have ground the heck out of one side of the limb to get the string tracking correctly. That is not the solution to it. If your string is not tracking straight you have to figure out why before proceeding most do not; believe me if guys only new what to look for they would be shocked at what they found on there bows. Fancy woods and all do not cut it for me I can nitpick a bow apart. Good luck and I have looked at alot of bows.
There are a lot of variable to be taken into consideration. But for me, I find bows which are cut 3/16" past center are the easiest for me to tune and shoot very well.
I have a bow that was very fussy until I modified the shelf. The way it came it was very hard to set up or tweek.
It didn't take much- moved the contact point reaward to above the low part of the grip and (probably the most important thing)squared the shelf off to the window so that it was no longer tilted away from it. Just having a shelf that was square side to side was major. Front to back its radiused.
Now I can change my rest and side plate material/set up to get that easy to shoot behavior.
Joshua
QuoteOriginally posted by jess stuart:
I like my bow to be just shy of center shot, the window is actually cut past center then built back out when tuning. Someone much wiser than me (Paul Comstock I think) said that if the window is shy of center the arrow will flex more consistenly each and every shot. I certainly can't prove or disprove that thinking, it just made sense at the time. I know even how hard the material the sideplate is made of will have an affect on how the arrow shoots.
I beleive the same, I want my arrow to be forced to bend the same direction (away from sideplate each time) with every shot. Lord knows I can use all the help I can get!!! :wavey:
Flint, How does one tell if a guys ground down a side to get movement? I dont build though I've tinkered with bbo's a little here and there. what else should someone be looking for in a bow that makes it more forgiving or easier to shoot.
I remember reading at one point in one of the older mags and in some older threads over the years on grips and their impact on shootablity. Thoughts?
I'll have to check tiller again. And compare it to the bow that was a dream to shoot. Unfortunatly it has a hairline crack in the riser so it hangs on the wall is about all these days.
JHG, not sure I'm following on the shelf tilted away....meaning sloped down and not creating a 'notch' (titled up)? This one is I think pretty square and radiused on both. I havent put a square to it to find out though.
Dan, well when they grind one side of the limb to get string aligment it can do alot to alter the limbs when you start to draw the bow back and the further you draw it it could exaggerate the problem. Checking by sight while looking over the bow from one end under good light. See if the tips on either end seem to be pointing off and look to seee if the limbs look symetrical as well is a start.
QuoteOriginally posted by AkDan:
This one is I think pretty square and radiused on both. I havent put a square to it to find out though.
Sounds like you are ok in that regard then.
QuoteOriginally posted by flint kemper:
Dan I would personally start with checking string aligment on the bow and sighting down the limbs from the belly side. There are alot of bows out there that the bowyers have ground the heck out of one side of the limb to get the string tracking correctly. That is not the solution to it. If your string is not tracking straight you have to figure out why before proceeding most do not; believe me if guys only new what to look for they would be shocked at what they found on there bows. Fancy woods and all do not cut it for me I can nitpick a bow apart. Good luck and I have looked at alot of bows.
Great post, I heartily agree with all except the fancy woods statement.A lot of bows have notches cut wrong, strings tracking off center. limbs not timed ect. These all contribute to the problem being talked about here.
God bless you all, Steve
Well I've been doing more tinkering.
Its funny, after the last week of poking and proding with this bow I'm right back to where I started spine wise to begin with. She definatly likes a smaller window of spine than I'm used too.
The more I play and make some small changes, the more I'm thinking its nothing more than grip placement on this bow. I remember changing my grip a couple years back shortly after buying this one. Somewhere in there I must have shifted back to my old grip or something in between. That alone made a world of difference.
I think I just named this one.....the red headed stepchild. lol
I plan on having a buddy check out the timing on her. tiller is on, things look fine though I wish the nocks were cut a little deeper. Gotta be careful the loops arent overly large or they'll literally pop out. I have a couple more of them and haven't hardly shot either, matter of fact one is literally brand new, no rest no grip, only shot a couple of times..the other is the ready reserve.
Thanks for the advice! At some point I'm going to tinker with building, and these are the kinds of threads that'll hopefully keep me from reinventing the wheel when that day comes.