Does anyone know were i can get a dozen of spine matched and weight matched raw cedar shafts?
I want to build a set of matched arrows for 3D.
Not intersered in surewood shafts.
Thanks, Mike
3 Rivers and many others will do that if you ask and pay a bit more-no problem.
Personally, I'd go with the Nocking Point and get more reliable service.
Guy
Raptor has matched Ceder and is a sponsor here. They will nock and point taper for you at no additional charge if you want. Seems like a great deal to me.
Let me clarify, i want the whole dozen with a 56# spine and within 10 grains.. Ive shot 55-60s for a while with pretty good results, just wanting to try a matched group. Do you think rator or the nocking point may do that??
Never hurts to ask. As Bjorn said it may cost you more and probably will. Me, I'd make a phone call.
Your dealing with a natural product and to expect the entire dzn to be exactly 56# is a bit unreasonable. I normally make two dzn at a time and find anywhere from a 4 to 7# spread on quality shafts. Most often I spine weigh and bunch as close as possible. After arrows are made I again spine weigh and bunch in order to get as tight as possible and then mark the arrows accordingly. I have had good luck in the past with Kustom King and Twig Archery when ordering.
One of the good things about the Nocking Point is you're going to talk with the guy who owns the shop. Can't hurt to ask but my guess is he'll try to help you.
On the other hand, I have yet to see the archer who can take advantage of a set of arrows with all the same spine. These aren't bench rest rifles we're holding onto.
Guy
Ive done as close as possible for years.. I want to see if i can see a difference in excatly matched or a 5# range.
I will give the nocking point a call.. I may not be able to tell a difference but its just something i want to try.. Honestly i wouldnt mind a 3# range.. The last 5 dozen shafts i have gotten have not been if very good quality and a little wider than 5# in spine.. I guess its just getting harder to get descent cedar
Well, that's one of the fun things about what we do: get an idea and give 'er a go!
With a wide enough selection of shafts to choose from it shouldn't be difficult to find a dozen all the same spine, or within a pound or two. Just as important, or maybe more so, will be weight. Again, with a large enough pile to work with it can be done. I've had it happen with some of the shafts I've purchased. Out of 200-300 shafts I'll have a set or two within a couple pounds of spine and within 5 grains of weight.
Good luck and be sure to post up your results.
Guy
I had my cedars made at perfection nailing the exact pound and weight like AL.I bought some top class shaft and I asked the maker to hand spine all of them,I payed more for every single dozen then I ordered 100 shafts and I spined all of them making groups in 1# lots.I finished with 3 dozen of the same spine deflection and weight and smaller groups just 1 or 2# stiffer or weaker.Find a good dependable dealer,pay more and have a spine tester.
Does it have to be cedar?
Mike,
Look on page 4 of the classifieds in the arrow and arrow making components. Same spine cedars for sale. Looks like he has quite a few.
I used to buy close tolerance Rogue River tapered cedar shafts when they were in business. If I recall, you could pay extra to get everything spined with in 2#'s of each other and they were matched within 10 grains (if you want to get closer than that, do an extra dip or two of finish to the lighter shafts). Rogue River was bought out by Wapiti Archery and I don't know if they offer the same service. The Rogue River shafting was excellent and as good as the old Acme premium shafts from the 60's/70's.
Mike will same spine as close as possible from what he has in stock. He's done it for me before. Got a couple of one up or one down but majority were same. He hand spines when they come in.
m: I agree with Grey. Haven't seen anyone yet who can shoot a couple of pounds of spine or grains of weight difference.
It's just about impossible to provide what you want. Depending on changes in humidity and initial shaft grain strtucture/tightness, unsealed shaft phiysical weights can change by 5-10 grains in a day. The spine can also change a pound or two. So regardless of what the supplier sends you, they may not be the same by the time they get to you.
I've often measured the same shafts several times over the course of a couple weeks, and very seldom got the same results on spine or weight. I weigh and spine all my shafts and write the info on them. Sometimes it's a year or more before I actually make arrows out of them. Upon weighing again, very few retain their original spine and weight. The changes aren't great, but they're there. Most spine testers just aren't that accurate. Digital grain scales are, but, as I said, humidity changes will change the weight and to a lesser extent the spine of unsealed shafts.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jon Powell:
Mike,
Look on page 4 of the classifieds in the arrow and arrow making components. Same spine cedars for sale. Looks like he has quite a few.
I don't believe these are weight matched. Personally, I feel weight matching is more important that extremely close spine matching. Especially seeing as how much shafts of a given spine can vary in weight.
Guy
If you really want perfection in terms of weight and spine-it can be done. I have been hoarding ACME cedar for years and the only limiting factor to perfection is patience. You can weigh, spine and even make adjustments by sanding and dipping and cutting etc. but the beauty of wood is you don't have to.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bjorn:
If you really want perfection in terms of weight and spine-it can be done..... but the beauty of wood is you don't have to.
Bingo!
Guy
It CAN be done but its tough unless you have a lot of shafts in that range to start with and a good EYE on the spine-tester . I Do that my self Making arrows now that are all spinned 68# to begin with then re-spine after I taper the back end down to 5/16 . I can look at my bundles but I do not think I have any in exact 56# right now and if so not sure if I have enough to make the weight cut to make a dozen but I'll look .
May take me a day or two right now to get to it
If perfection is exactly the same spine and weight for a dozen arrows, not a pound or grain off, then I contend that the perfect woodies haven't been built yet, and probably never will. But I agree with Bjorn, wood doesn't have to be perfect to shoot well.
But for the sake of argument, I've been collecting/saving and making arrows out of premium ACMEs and Sweetland forgewoods for about 40 years now. Can usually get a dozen shafts to spine the same before I seal them. Need a lot of shafts to start with, of course. Can even get almost all of them the same weight, i.e., the exact same grains, before I seal them.
Then it gets difficult. Feathers can vary by up to a grain per feather, points a lot more than that. Very easy to get a 10 grain or more variation in arrows due to feather and point weight differences, not to mention the finish. Some shafts will be just a tad more porous than others and soak up a grain or two more of finish. Even the amount of glue used on the points and nocks can vary the weight a grain or two. Finally, even after the shafts have been turned into arrows, they will still gain and lose weight due to humidity changes, and they won't all do it equally. That's why, in short, I don't believe a perfectly matched set of woodies can be made. Very close, yes, but perfect, no.
I might add that most measuring equipment isn't precise enough to determine if the arrows spine and weigh exactly the same. The pointer on a spine tester, for example, can straddle two numbers, lean on the heavy side of one hash mark, he light side of the same one. Most would accept the middle reading, but the arrow is probably a half-pound more or less depending on which side of the hash mark the pointer lands.
Just went back and read some of the early posts. M said he would accept 3# and 10 grain variance. That's very doable. Any good arrow maker should be able to do that, provided he has lots of shafts to choose from. And that's a very good/excellent set of arrows. Of course, there's nothing wrong with striving for perfection.
Elite arrows are the best I know of and I highly reccomend them .
Paul Jalon makes great arrows... Thanks for the info guys.
Orion wrote: "And then it gets difficult..................... :laughing: :laughing:
Sorry. Got little anal. I've been trying to build the perfect arrow/set of arrows for more than 50 years. Still trying. :bigsmyl:
I guess same spine group was a little far fetched.. I just need to find a good supplier..
Call or email Ted at Raptor Archery
m midd, I'm glad you brought this up. It's been an interesting discussion and I've enjoyed seeing everyone's views.
Guy
Call or email Ted at Raptor Archery
I have no idea how that double post happened. :dunno: :dunno:
Out of 24 shafts i managed to spine 6 at 58# weighing 507-508gr... Now the fun begins...
I'm like Bjorn in that I "hoard cedar"! In my opinion the quality has deminished over the years so when I find good wood I stock up. Haven't had to buy any lately but have somewhere around 18 to 20 dzn up in my garage. I need to get busy!!!!
Mike: Those are pretty good results. Usually takes more shafts than that to get a half-dozen that close. They'll be el primos when you're done. Good luck.
Larry M. I've been hoarding for a long time as well. My problem now is, I have a lot of high quality shafts in a spine range that will likely be too heavy for me in a couple more years. So far, my ACSs are keeping that problem at bay
It would seem to me that the issue is arrow flight. If that's the case, then number the arrows, shoot them and cull after all building has finished.
I dont know how i got that lucky.... They shot very well.. But they are a little lighter than what i like to shoot.
SORRY NONE in that range :-(
just picked up a dozen hildebrand shafts. 55-60 spine, and hit a maximum of 10 grains in difference. The scale actually showed all but 2 within 4 grains of eachother. Shocked to say the least for woodies, but I would look em up they are great. Just got them stained and crested and woooow. That's my best advice! good luck!
For some of the best port orford cedar shafts give this place a call as they harvest all of their own wood: Wapiti Archery (www.wapitiarchery.com) (541) 659-2984. They are in Grants Pass, Oregon.