Okay fellow Hill Style enthusiasts. I am trying to obtain accurate data for a chart that gives a baseline for the wingspan and equal draw length shooting the Hill Style.
Wingspan is measured in the front with arms extended from tip to tip of longest finger.
Draw length is from measured bottom of nock groove to the back of the bow (side facing target not belly).
If you are pretty comfortable with your Hill style shooting form and bow arm, post your info.
Really interested to see where people fall. I know this is only and average, as some people are longer on one side or the other.
With my back to the wall and not fully stretched, the wingspan is 70 5/8"
The drawlength, after a dozen or so shots, is 27". The bow has a locator grip that is approximately 1/8" deep.
77" span, 30.5 draw (which varies a little depending on the thickness of the riser)
Are you going to calculate a drawlength to wingspan ratio? You do know you're going to get a bunch of folks riled up, don't you? :)
My wingspan is 70 1/4" and I draw my Hill to 27"
my wingspan is just on 70" and I draw just on 27"
My wingspan is 78". Drawlength with my Jerry Hill (Dished Grip depth at riser 2 1/8") is 29.5-30". With a r/d LB I draw 31"
My wingpan is 72.5" and I draw 26,5 to 27" when actually shooting a multple of arrows. If I just draw the bow, I can draw("stretch") 28"-28.5" but it depends on the grip and isn't natural/comfortable. I got too much "slop" in all my old joints.
75.5" here for the wing span and I only draw 27"-27.25". I think I'm a little short on my draw due to a birth defect in my shoulder and surgery last year to repair a torn labrum.
I can easily draw longer but that's what it is when I shoot.
74.5" here and draw 27.5"
77" here and I draw 29 1/2 -30"
wing span 75"
draw 28.5"
Wing span 75 3/4"
Draw 29" with my Hill's, 30 inches with a recurve.
Bob.
72 wingspan and 27 1/2 draw
Keep the info coming. You guys are drawing alot longer than I would have expected in relation to wingspan. Anyone know what Howard Hill's wingspan was? John Schulz? I think Pavan told me once.
70", 27 1/4"
71 3/4", 28"
I am 71" and draw right at 26". Straight, slight dish handle, heel down grip. This is bent arm, relaxed shot, swing up, no lock or hold just fluid movement thru.
74" wing
26.5" draw with palm heel down, elbow slightly bent
Anchor shooting two under is middle finger touching mouth corner.
Yardstick - 25.75" +/-
I'm confused, what's wing span have to do with your draw length?.....stabow
According to his first post I gathered he's trying to come up with and average formula. Probably just tinkering with an idea...
Stabow,
Wingspan gives the overall arm length. Of course we vary in draw, like there may be some difference on left or right side. If someone have a 78" WS vs say a 69" WS the draw should be quite different. I am of course looking for Hill style longbows. Different styles of bows will change the draw due to grip or thickness of riser. Just wonder is there is an average for those that shoot the hill style longbow. BTW: Interesting that Great Northern sizes there bows by bow length to match your WS.
73 maybe 74....27" draw with a hill 29 1/2 with a curve!
I have a 78" wingspan (kinda like a condor) and shoot 30-31" draw depending on the bow.And they are all longbows.
Wingspan...80" draw length in a fluid motion...27" max
Old yardstick measurement like they used to do....27"
Try it you all...put a yardstick against your sternum, with your shoulders back like up against a wall reach out with both arms and see where your longest finger reaches without stretching....this is how they used to measure your preferred draw.... because this takes into account chest width as well as arm length. I.E...a skinny narrow chested guy with long arms will have a longer draw than a wide chested guy with short arms even though their wingspan is the same
Using the yardstick I am right at 25 3/4"- 26". I guess 25 7/8" is average.
Now lets use this other method with yardstick and see what people get as a measurement. Be sure to let me know which one is yardstick, wingspan, and your draw length.
Interesting..
Wingspan 77" - 27" draw
Yardstick: right on 27"
Wingspan - 70 5/8"
Yardstick - 26"
Drawlength - 27"
My measurement with the yardstick:
Wingspan: 78"
Yardstick: 27.5"
Actual Drawlength: 29.5-30" with my Hill
What does that mean? Having a deeeep chest/ribcage?
From Nate Steen: "I.E...a skinny narrow chested guy with long arms will have a longer draw than a wide chested guy with short arms even though their wingspan is the same"
The size of the chest will effect the draw length.
The weight of the bow will also effect draw length.
wingspan 70"
yardstick 25"
draw length 27"
76" wingspan 29" draw on my Hill's with straight grip and 30" on my recurves with medium recurve grip
Wingspan: 72.5"
Draw: 27.5"
Yard stick: 27.5"
Are we having fun yet?
Danny
Nate you have some loooong arms. You ever done any boxing.
Wingspan: 80&1/4"
Draw length on Hills: 31&1/2" to 32"
Yardstick: 30&1/4"
Nate and Michigan Mark could really reach out there!
Wingspan: 69"
Yardstick: 25 1/4"
Draw Length: 26"
Yeah I have 37" sleeves..wide chest...but I love a compact..shoulder back..bent arm fluid form so I can have short arrows...short arrows are easy to tune and easy to get spines and less arrow to get blown sideways in windy Idaho.
All these long draws posted...you guys really pulling that long while shooting at game or intense pressure targets? Most of the time when really concentrating on the target our draws are shorter than we think or what we see in the mirror. A video of our shooting while stump shooting reveals alot about our true draw length.
Measurement from wrist to right eye using Howard's method, and, appropriate 1.5" reduction is 26.5"
71" arm span
26.5 yardstick
26.5" draw.
Swampthing,
we have the same wingspan, but I have a shorter draw.
A lot of times Jeff I just tap 26" when in precarious positions. Leverage is leverage, when it is gone you can't draw any further.
My wingspan is 75" and my draw length is 28.5 BOP which brings the broadhead to my bow hand knuckle.
Bob Wesley showed me the method he uses. I did it today and it was right on.
Bob takes the arrow and places the nock against the center of his chest with the arrow pointing away from him. Then he takes both hands and holds them against the arrow with his fingers against the shaft. Where your middle fingers end on the shaft is your approximate draw length.
I reach 28.5" using Bob Wesley's method. It seems very accurate for me.
Gil
WS 73
Actual draw 27 3/4
Yardstick 26 1/2
Wingspan69 70
Yardstick 26
Draw 26
Gerald
My wingspan is 72" and draw length is 29", I have long arms. I shoot Toelke Super Ds, Classic Whips and a Curlew take-down recurve re-figured to a low wrist grip and have the same draw length with all of them. I suspect bow to bow variations in draw length come mostly from guys shooting high wrist grip recurves and I suspect a fair number of shooters who don't like longbows because they have had their teeth rattled gripped them this way as well.
73", 27.5"
imho, there is no precise "wingspan to draw length" formula. there are many factors to an optimum draw length, and what works for one person may not work for another. what matters most is matching draw length to stick bow length, and afl's (american flat longbows, i.e. "hill style") will require longer lengths than any other stick bow style.
ymmv.
Thanks for all of the responses. I was looking for the relationship between the wingspan and DL. The measuring system using the yardstick to the breastbone sounds like gives a good indication of the ballpark for one's draw length.
WS does not take the size of the chest into considerarion, where the yardstick method does. Of course there could be some variation depending on grip on the bow.
if you look at the human anatomy, the dimensional variations between the parts of the body that connect the shoulder to the finger tips, let alone include the chest area, can be vastly different from person to person. then there's the matter of "form" ... that's a huge can of worms that can easily skew what we call "draw length". as with arrow calculators, there's no precise way to calculate any of this stuff. ball park, at best.
Bob Swineheart and Howard Hill looked different at full draw, they had nearly equal draw lengths, even though Bob was inches shorter. Howard Hill said that Bob Swineheart was a better size than he was for shooting a bow and arrow.
it's been written a fair amount about 6'3" howard hill's short 28" draw length ...
Would shooting 3 under compared to split finger(anchor points) give 3 under a shorter draw.
Part of the draw length issue also must land on the anatomy of a persons head and neck. I have quite a long point on, even though i anchor middle finger just back of the corner of my mouth. Some people can tilt their head forward and still get a solid anchor while others need to keep their head up a bit. Right handed I can stretch out and shoot more square to my shoulder line than left because, my neck does not rotate to the left hand bow as easily resulting a more open stance, which gives me a more natural feel and shorter draw. Some people do not have the arm to want to bend at the wrist and elbow, they shoot better with things a bit straighter and probably prefer higher grips. Lots of variables, I still say if one wants to shoot a standard Hill style bow, look at what Hill did with his as a guide and your results may vary, but it is a place to start.
I'm not sure he was looking for anything specific as would be needed for prescriptive advice. I think this is more about generalization and being able to show some correlation, which is easy to see given the data we have so far.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
imho, there is no precise "wingspan to draw length" formula. there are many factors to an optimum draw length, and what works for one person may not work for another. what matters most is matching draw length to stick bow length, and afl's (american flat longbows, i.e. "hill style") will require longer lengths than any other stick bow style.
ymmv.
Rob is right.
In my day job, I do a lot of statistical analysis for fisheries management. So the number crunching geek in me took everyone's responses and and ran a linear regression of drawlength vs. wingspan. Yes, there is a "statistically significant" trend that a longer wingspan yields a longer drawlength. However, only 43% of the variation in drawlength was explained by wingspan. The other 57% of the variation in drawlength would be due to othter factors as Rob has pointed out.
QuoteOkay fellow Hill Style enthusiasts. I am trying to obtain accurate data for a chart that gives a baseline for the wingspan and equal draw length shooting the Hill Style.
what I'd like to know is what the difference between the draw length on a "Hill Style Bow" and any other bow is?
I know you guys have got your own fan club going, but i think specifying a draw length for a particular style bow is rather strange....of course this is excluding Korean and horse bows for obvious reasons.
In any event, there is no accurate data base for wing span to draw length. too many exceptions to form a rule. Rob D hit it on the nose.
Wingspan 76"
Draw Length 28 1/2"
There is a similiar method that most people use in shooting this style of longbows. Most people shoot with some bend in their arm, with the heel down on the grip.
This leads to a shorter draw length in comparison to a pistol grip on a recurve. As you mentioned the Korean and horse bows or looking at Japanese archers have a particular form or style for a particular type of bow. It is an entire method of shooting. Some guys will disagree, but Hill style tends to have particulars about the way this longbow is shot.
I was just asking to see what others measure that shoot this style of longbow. Wingspan looks like does not really give an accurate relationship to draw length.
You bet, the fan club is growing it seems. There is a resurgance of interest in straight, thick, limbed longbows known as "Hill style" longbows.
If I remember right Hill said that a 27" arrow was the best length for flight. He could have been talking about the shafts that were available to him at the time, but he shortened his draw a bit to get closer to optimal arrow flight. The question I always have, did that form adjustment aid him in his shooting ability? I cannot remember the Hill/Schulz numbers, Schulz was about the same as mine, which I forgot as well, but I do remember that we figured that I would have about a 25" draw if kept the same ratio as Hill. The yard stick rule does not always work because some folks are wide in the shoulder and short in the arm.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
imho, there is no precise "wingspan to draw length" formula. there are many factors to an optimum draw length, and what works for one person may not work for another. what matters most is matching draw length to stick bow length, and afl's (american flat longbows, i.e. "hill style") will require longer lengths than any other stick bow style.
ymmv.
Rob,
I could be missing something here but I don't think anybody here is trying to nail down a precise formula to determine a "correct" draw length for a hill style bow....seems to be a discussion on different ways folks in the past determined a good place to start...and how the method correlated with Howard etal.
Interesting tho...a year ago (and back too the mid 60's) I pulled my bows (mostly too short extremely stacking Bear and Browning 'curves) between 31" and 32". Now, after having adjusted to the straight grip - heel down I am comfortably and naturally pulling 27" consistently.
FWIW, I am now shooting 59# at my draw (compared to 53#) and as someone has mentioned above, that will also have an effect on your draw length. I do not hold/hesitate much (if any) but have a much more fluid release upon touching anchor - a totally different style of shooting for me.
Bottom line here is I find it interesting how the methods correlate (seemingly) with the guys of yesteryear...it means little but is cool nonetheless.
:thumbsup:
Hill and Schulz measured arrows "net"...meaning Hill's 28" arrows were 27" bop by todays standards because there was 1" of arrow inside the head. Schulz's 26"draw would be 25" by todays standards. Schulz is around 5'7" or 5'8" so that draw length would be proportionate with Hill's larger size and longer draw. Schulz also shot shorter longbows around 64" alot...again, he was keeping things the proper proportions.
QuoteOriginally posted by sunset hill:
All these long draws posted...you guys really pulling that long while shooting at game or intense pressure targets? Most of the time when really concentrating on the target our draws are shorter than we think or what we see in the mirror. A video of our shooting while stump shooting reveals alot about our true draw length.
spot on, nate. :thumbsup:
Nate,
On the yardstick measure do you keep you shoulders pinned against the wall or do you arch your shoulders forward? When I arch my shoulders forward I get 26.5" but with my shoulder against the wall I get closer to 23-24"( I have a 72.5"span). :confused:
The absolute best way to measure a draw length, is to do it while shooting. Mark an arrow with some rings of varying color every 1/2". Have an observer with a keen eye, watch you shoot a dozen or so arrows and take note of each shot. It's best if they don't tell you what they are seeing at the time, so you can just focus on your target, and so you don't try to reach any particular draw length. If you have a camera with a burst mode, all the better.
I had my wife take some pictures of me a couple of weeks ago. It's hard to tell in that picture, but there are rings around the shaft at 30, 30.5, and 31". The 31" ring is right above my index finger and the 30.5" is just hidden by the riser. Again, this was taken while I was focused on hitting my target and not posing for a picture. The rings on the shaft were almost gone from wear, and I wasn't using this particular photo session to determine my draw length, but you get the idea.
(http://i934.photobucket.com/albums/ad183/wclooper/IMG_0071.jpg)
A word of warning, though. If you post a picture of yourself, a whole clan of yahoos will commence to screwing up your form :) .
Oh, and don't shoot a bow with your favorite mechanical pencil in your shirt pocket. It's amazing just how far one will fly if the bowstring hooks onto the clip.
Looper, you must have heard comments about your form... :knothead: :biglaugh: from us yahoos...
seriously, the colored ring method while actually shooting is the best way to know your draw length...because when you actually shoot under pressure, that draw length is what you want your bow weight/arrow spine everything tuned to. So many guys who are frustrated with arrow spine don't realize that they are pulling less weight than they think, with shorter arrows of the correct spine they would find their arrows flying well. The key is to not stretch out your form just to get to a certain draw length...go with what works for your body size, arm length, comfort and repeatability/consitency. A natural, relaxed easily repeatable draw length is what is good.
I do the yardstick, arrow method while just keeping my shoulders relaxed and back....not forcing them back against a wall, and not reaching forward...just what feels natural.
I think Jeff brought up this thread as a starting point measureing stick for guys who want to order a Hill bow and have no clue about where to start. With the popularity of the HH thread, there are many guys who are looking at buying their first "Hill".
QuoteOriginally posted by sunset hill:
Hill and Schulz measured arrows "net"...meaning Hill's 28" arrows were 27" bop by todays standards because there was 1" of arrow inside the head. Schulz's 26"draw would be 25" by todays standards. Schulz is around 5'7" or 5'8" so that draw length would be proportionate with Hill's larger size and longer draw. Schulz also shot shorter longbows around 64" alot...again, he was keeping things the proper proportions.
Nate,
Did Hill and Schulz use a longer arrow by 1" for broadheads and did the wood arrow spine change?
I shoot net arrows five pounds less spine than my broadheads which are cut so I can touch my finger at full draw. While I apologize for not seeing what was wrong with looper's form two weeks ago. I see it now, its all in the hat. Bending a hat with the bow string messes me up every time, stops my draw cold the instant it touches. My leather Orvis hat, I have it bent up so that never happens. I have shot lots of deer on the ground with that stiff leather hat with the brim bent up kittie corner. The deer take one look at me and think I must nothing more than a gay peta photographer or something. I never thought that it looked gay until a gay guy in a gas station said that is was a 'smashing design statement'. I don't know what that is, but it cannot be good.
That's the only hat I own that I can shoot with and have the string touch the brim. My Filson Packer hat is way too stiff. I do have some of those soft brimmed ranger type hats, but I don't know if I want to look like one of those Wensel characters just yet.
Hawaii...I would assume that the longer arrows for broadheads were stiffer spine, Hill has repeatedly said that he shot all his arrows for groups, and kicked out those arrows that didn't group for him.
I do the net arrow thing also...my broadhead arrows are 1/2" longer than blunt arrows. In the 5# spine variance of a matched set of arrows, the lighter shafts get turned into blunts and the stiffer shafts go to broadheads...voila, arrows that group together :)
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by sunset hill:
All these long draws posted...you guys really pulling that long while shooting at game or intense pressure targets? Most of the time when really concentrating on the target our draws are shorter than we think or what we see in the mirror. A video of our shooting while stump shooting reveals alot about our true draw length.
Believe it or not Brother's My answer remains the same. Yes it is difficult to find arrows (especially POC).
Pressure shot archery form!
(http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n559/jeffbschulz/swinehart-1.jpg)
QuoteOriginally posted by dragonheart:
Pressure shot archery form!
(http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n559/jeffbschulz/swinehart-1.jpg)
Double! :knothead:
Who is that a picture of?
Nate you bring up a good point about draw length. The backyard shot and the measurement is usually a bit longer than when actually taking a hunting shot. I release right at 26" when just shooting but my hunting shot probably is closer to 25". That's one reason I like my arrows to show a bit weak when bareshafting, and also why I shoot more feather than I need.
Great photo Jeff!! :thumbsup:
Bob Swinehart. :notworthy:
QuoteOriginally posted by dragonheart:
Bob Swinehart. :notworthy:
x 25,000