Just watched Byron Ferguson's "Become the Arrow." In it, he recommends selecting max bow wieght by choosing something one can hold at full draw for at least ten seconds...and still be able to make an accurate shot. As a newbie, I don't have an 'accurate shot' in my frame of reference yet. Should I still use the ten second rule in determining my max bow weight?
As always, thanks.
Doug
Shoot what you have and work on your form. Good form will help you hold the weight.
That's the problem, lpcjon2 . . .I am still trying to determine my max bow weight in order to buy my first trad bow. Don't want to 'over bow' myself, but don't want to grow out of my first trad bow to fast, either.
Yes - it's a good, but general, rule of thumb to follow - there are always exceptions, but if you are over-bowed now that may lead to some frustration and the development of some bad habits that may need to un-learned in the future....
One can always develop more strength to handle a heavier draw weight, but patience is necessary to do so....
Shoot straight, Shinken
:archer2:
Can you go to a shoot or a range that other trad guys shoot at and try some bows?
Few folks can make an accurate shot after holding for 10 seconds. We're not shooting compounds and don't sit on the release forever. If you can hold the weight you're shooting comfortably as long as it takes to make your shot, say 1-3 seconds, you're not overbowed.
I know that VA as a trad bow group, but I'm not sure about any local shoots. I have shot my wheelie down at Ft. Belvoir, but I have not actively particpated in any group events, so I do not know what percentage of shooters are trad guys. I'll will try to get hands on some trad bows to try before I buy...
Snap shooters, those who draw down on an animal and release the arrow when they come to their anchor point, never hold for 10 seconds. Once they reach their anchor point, the arrow is immediately released.
I didn't think Mr. Ferguson was implying the shooter should always hold. . .I think that was just his recommendation for determining max bow weight for shooter.
I would not advise going by those rules as a newbie to trad........it depends too much on what muscles you are using-arms or back-and whether your draw stays the same or are you collapsing to accommodate the heavier pull. Get with some other trad guys and shoot some different bows. A 40-45# bow is typically a good place to start for someone with good musculature and a 27-28" draw.
Roger Rothhaar told me once the way to find your correct pulling weight is by finding out what is the maxium weight one can bring to anchor and hold...then subtract 30% off that weight and should be the weight for your bow.
Example = 80 lb max pull subtract 30% and your bow weight should be 80 minus 24lbs = 56 lb holdig weight.
Always made sense to me.
George
pm'd you
Id just get a 45# and try that. It wont be too much, but it will still be heavy enough to hunt with. If it's not heavy enough for your liking, you will want a new bow by then anyways :D
I would think about getting a takedown or an ilf riser that you liked and then pick up a set of cheap 40lb limbs. Once you get good you can get a heavier and nicer set of limbs to hunt with.
I used to shoot 70+ pound compounds no problem. When I started shooting trad I found out pretty quick that 45 pounds was plenty to start with. My everyday shooter bow is still 45 pound now after three years at it.. I'm with the last two fellas to post, 40-45 pounds. You can always move up later.
I shot a 45 and a 50 at Bass Pro last week. Felt ok with both, but hadn't thought about whether or not I was 'collapsing to accomodate the heavier weight,' as Bjorn said. Much to thinnk about in this new venture. Looking forward to getting to where I can shoot more, think less! :)
Depends on how far you want to shoot the arrow into the dirt after going thru the deer!
I agree with Orion. Big time. We all have a different style of shooting, and needs to further that style, but, except for my buddy J. . . I typically don't ever see anybody holding a bow for ten seconds, or even five (he can hold one drawn all day I think).
It was a nice catchy thing to say for the public viewers, but. . . like G Fred's elephant stance statement in one of his books (where he holds his bow between his legs, facing down, all twisted up and says "this is the test for whether your bow is too heavy"), my response is. . HUH ? when do I EVER shoot like that ?
I think you will know if it is truly too heavy, if you open your eyes.
ChuckC
Doug, The Baltimore shoot in May is a good shoot to try out a lot of different bows and a chance to meet a lot of trad shooters. I have not seen any regular trad gatherings in Northern Virginia. There are not any good trad shops in the area either but there is a shop in Mt Airy MD that has some trad gear and a guy that is afraid hunter. Other than that there are a few of us on the Gang from NOVA that would be glad to shoot with you some time. I shoot down at Belvoir myself on ocassion.
Pulling back a bow in the shop a few times is not the same as shooting 50 or 100 arrows. In my opinion, there is no "formula". My suggestion to anyone who asks is to get your hands on a 40# or so bow and a half dozen appropriate arrows and just learn how to shoot correctly. If you're only interested in roving or 3D shoots, 40# is fine and easy on the joints. If you plan to hunt, you can slowly work up from there. There is no getting around the fact (again in my opinion) that you really need to work your way up in weight.
Cost is minimal if you pick up an old used bow at a yardsale, in the classifieds here or on an auction site; or even better borrow a bow from someone.
Kingsnake, need to ask yourself what you are planning to do with the bow. I see you live in Va. Am I correct in assuming that deer hunting is what you are thinking of. If so around a #45 bow give or take a couple #'s will take care of all you want to do. It will be more enjoyable for you to shoot. Too heavy even if you can pull it will lead to all kinds of potential problems. My first bow was #45 and I was persuaded by Glen StCharles to this weight back in the early 70's when he was running his own shop with lots of different bows! He told me then that weight would handle most everthing in Wa state. Also, Welcome to the gang.
For what it's worth, I've been through a lot of bows in the last 2 years and have pretty much gotten my money back out of each one I sold. I have bought one new bow and plan to buy at least one more, but the rest have all been used bows for a fair price. I've sold them for pretty much what they cost +- a couple of dollars. It's easy to trade up later without spending much more money.
Lots of good advice here. Everybody has their own style, and that style will determine your bow. I used to snapshoot heavy recurves. I wasn't terribly accurate at it but just thought thats how it goes. When I changed to holding, something clicked for me. Just as snap shooting clicks for others.
I use the ten second hold as a measure for myself but not set in stone. My accuracy improved drastically.
Try EVERYTHING. You will find your niche!
The old rule of thumb for compound shooters switching to curves that you should start at 25% of the max compound weight worked like a charm for me. I was pulling 60# and went to recurves that were 44-46#@26" (my draw).
I'm absolutely confident I can pull, anchor, and hold for 10 seconds or more, recurves at least 15 #'s higher than I would be comfortable shooting correctly. So, that 10 second rule isn't one I'll subscribe too.
I shoot as far through white-tails with my recurve set-up, with arrows 100-125 grains heavier, as I did with my 60# compounds.
I started with a longbow and a draw weight of around 45# at my draw. An even lighter bow would have been a good choice!!
Just a suggestion: If you have the opportunity to rent or buy a starter or used take-down bow it will grow with you and your increasing strength, because you can change the limbs in 5# increments.
This is a popular way to start archery over here. You will save some bucks.
The final draw weight depends imho on what you wanna do with your bow: for bowhunting you may just need to be able to draw it a couple of times without undue strain. Field archery or 3D-shoots are different. Attending these tournaments will require to draw your bow with ease up to 100 times over the course of a day.
Just my 2cents. Anyway enjoy Trad Archery.
Vincent
I started with a 45 pound bow that was about 40 pounds at the time for my draw length. However I started traditional archery when I was 12 so I was able to build up pretty quickly just thanks to a growth spurt. I now shoot 55 pounds and I am 18 I have no plans to move up in bow weight anymore even though I can comfortably shoot 60 to 65 pounds as I do shoot the 55 pounds better.
I agree with these Fine Folks, something around 45 to 50 lbs. will be a Fine Starter Bow. :thumbsup:
It may seem light, but with a SHARP B.H. and Good Form for Accuracy, you can pretty much Harvest whatever Critter youre After! :archer:
what shakes602 said. you can kill deer an other game all day long with 45-50 lbs I would think MOST healthy adults can pull a 45-50 lb bow.that said if you are just flinging arrows an shooting 3-d go with 40-45 the nice thing about 50 lbs is it has a great punch an when hunting with heavey clothes or very cold weather it is still very comfortable.as oppossed to 60-65 lbs.you may be able to pull it back an shoot half desent.but maybe not cold weather or bulky clothes.
A beginner weight bow should not cause any strain or effort. If you can hold it at full draw for 10 seconds without shaking, that is a good weight to learn form and how to shoot it. Once you learn proper form and are accurate then you can increase weight a bit that still allows you to maintain your form.
I would assume Byron came to that statement to help keep folks from being overbowed. If you can hold a bow for 10 seconds and get a good release, you can shoot lots of arrows without getting tired and developing bad form. I started out at around 50#.It worked great for me. I would say that anything 45- 50 # would be good, and you can still hunt with it. Don't count on it being the only bow you end up buying :nono: . I thought that, then had heavier limbs made for my recurve, then bought some longbows. Start lower than you think you might end up with, but keep it in a weight range effective for hunting. then you can get your form down, hunt with it, and try more styles and weights as your ring of Traditional friends and opportunities expand.
Swamp thing is dead on.
Pm me with your location. I have a lot of bows of different weights and a place to shoot them.
Killdeer
I just started shooting this past summer. I got the lowest poundage that I was legally allowed to take game with in Penna (35#). I've been shooting almost daily since I got my bow.
I just ordered a new one- only 45#.
I'd suggest getting a lighter bow. You'll learn form more properly, and can shoot forever. If you enjoy shooting you'll end up getting a new one anyway, and then have a nice backup bow to revisit when your form is lacking, or a buddy bow for another newbie to try.
Killy, ver nice offer and Doug would be very smart to take you up on it.
Doug, she knows her stuff and quite sure she will help you a lot.
QuoteOriginally posted by Kingsnake:
Just watched Byron Ferguson's "Become the Arrow." In it, he recommends selecting max bow wieght by choosing something one can hold at full draw for at least ten seconds...and still be able to make an accurate shot. As a newbie, I don't have an 'accurate shot' in my frame of reference yet. Should I still use the ten second rule in determining my max bow weight?
As always, thanks.
Doug
if yer a newbie to trad, there will be some adjusting and changes to accept for draw length and bow holding weight. everyone goes through this as a first timer to trad. it's a major gamble to *think* a draw length and holding weight will 'work' just fine from the get-to, 'cause the safe bet is it all will change far sooner than later. the absolute best thing you can do is get yerself a knowledgeable mentor, and killie has stepped up to the plate to help ya - yer lucky. ;)
I'm 5' 8" and 150#, started shooting trad three years ago with a 45# bow. I now shoot about 50 to 53#. I can draw a 60# bow but would be over bowed at that weight. My brother shoots a trad bow only a few times a year and shoots 40# and he's 15# heaver than I. Hope this helps to give you a perspective.
IF you can sit on a stump or chair and pull the bow back without a problem or lifting your feet you should be good to go. 30-40 pounds is a good place to start for most.
I can pull a pretty heavy bow. I work out with a longbow that's 67# at my draw, pulling with left and right hands for my daily bow workout. But I am very pleased with how I shoot my 48# bow, and until I go after some pretty heavy-duty critters, it will work just fine. Remember, if you push yourself to the limit, you'll have a number of undesirable results:
You'll wear out more quickly
You'll have a harder time getting a clean release
You'll have trouble if you're cold
You'll just have less control all around
I really like that I can shoot that 48-pounder forever and my muscles just never seem to get tired.
Archie
QuoteOriginally posted by Archie:
I can pull a pretty heavy bow. I work out with a longbow that's 67# at my draw, pulling with left and right hands for my daily bow workout. But I am very pleased with how I shoot my 48# bow, and until I go after some pretty heavy-duty critters, it will work just fine. Remember, if you push yourself to the limit, you'll have a number of undesirable results:
You'll wear out more quickly
You'll have a harder time getting a clean release
You'll have trouble if you're cold
You'll just have less control all around
I really like that I can shoot that 48-pounder forever and my muscles just never seem to get tired.
Archie
imho, archie has totally nailed it. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :campfire:
I find there is a sweet spot. Too low and my arrow just feels "loopy", I string vertically and my release sloppy. Too heavy and I'm strugging and inconsistant or have trouble in odd positions. My sweet spot is right around 55# at my draw length - which I can hold for 30 seconds or better - but might as well not as that shot probably won't be a good one. ;-)
Kingsnake, I'm at Ft Belvoir. Send me a PM if you want to get together sometime. I have three bows you can try. A Martin x-200 50@28, A Trad Tech Black Onyx with LB limbs 44@28, and a 7 Lakes LB 53@28. My draw is 30 1/2, but I just went and checked them at a 28 for you. Just let me know, my schedule is pretty flexible.
You guys got me to wondering, so I just went out and shot my recurve which is about 60# at my draw. I was able to hold for 10 seconds the first time and then shoot accurately. whew! However, I was only able to do that a few times. How many times are we supposed to be able to do it? Also, I was shooting at night with a flashlight attached to my bow...which is very similar to blind bale shooting. I have trouble doing this same thing in the daytime because of target panic...
Joe
There is a saying we use around here."IF IT FEELS LIGHT,ITS PROBABLY RIGHT !" If you pull a bow and you have to say i can pull it but its a little tough it will be to heavy.Never want to say ill work in to the weight.Think of stump shooting or shooting 3d's for a day and be able to enjoy it.
I Think you need to try out some bows and see what weight is comfortable to you.Like someone said you shouldn't feel like your working at it to draw anchor and shoot,it should be comfortable.I don't think anyone can tell you a poundage to start with,without seeing you shoot different bows.Some guys are just way stronger than others.I just got back into shooting after about 7 years off,but I've been shooting a bow since I was about 9 years old,I'm 41 now. I used to be able to shoot a 100# longbow without much trouble,I know for sure I couldn't do that now.I used to shoot a 67# recurve at the 3-d shoots and alot of people told me that was way to heavy for 3-d.But I was very comfortable shooting it.One woman looked at my bow and said that's way to heavy for you,without even seeing me shoot it.She said to look at her husband(real big guy) and said he only shoots 50#. I asked her what his score was,she told me and I said nice shooting! Never told her I finished 40 points higher than him.Some people might need to start out at 35# while other guys can jump right in at 50# plus. Don't knpow until you actually try it.
Another thing to be aware of is shooting a bow is a repetative motion. All those English archers had shoulder damage. There is a reason I have bows at 45,50,55, and 60 pounds. I could shoot something in the 75-80 pound range just fine but the accumalitive effects on my joints would not be good. Having a few inexpensive bows in lighter weights helps during injuries and working on form issues.
I am going to go home and try to hold my bows for 10 seconds. I may have to sell them all and start over. :biglaugh:
But seriously, over the years I have also found that if a bow isn't heavy enough I don't shoot it as well. Almost like there is not enough weight to settle it into my body on full draw making a solid base and I am able to move it around too much while trying to be still upon release. Does that make any sense? There is a sweet spot for me. A bow that is too light I believe creates problems with form as well.
10 seconds sounds awfully long to me...but he's the master - I can hold my 50# hoyt buff for about 5 seconds and still make an accurate shot - seems plenty to me.
"A bow that is too light,I believe creates problems with form as well"
I agree with you on this for sure. My release isn't the greatest and with a real light bow it seems to magnify the problem.
Don't over bow yourself. I have a friend who has hunted with a 40# recurve for over 40 years and has killed more deer than I have time to sit down and count. Fred Eichler (Easton Bowhunting T.V) has killed 27 elk and a grizzly with his 52.5# recurve and a 480 grain arrow. (125 tip)
Remember, a 190 fps arrow out of a 70# bow has the SAME kinetic energy as a 190 fps arrow out of a 45# bow... all other variables being the same.
You want to take care of your elbows and shoulders if you plan on doing this a while. You WILL get old, like the rest of us some day! Hee!
Some folks can handle large poundage bows, but they are the exception. I believe many, many trad archers are over-bowed. If you over-bow you will suffer in the form department. You will enjoy your range time a lot more if you don't wear down after 20 arrows. (And suffer much less frustration)
You can (and probably will if you are like the majority of us here)always buy more bows in the future. Personally, I'm just fine with my 44#-51# bows and don't feel under-gunned for anything I hunt.
Good luck and have fun... this is one great adventure!
Rick
Last season a doe moved in to see what I was while I was at full draw on her, in a ground blind. She moved into an awful position and I did not want to shoot; however, I didn't want to move and scare her and her deer-buddies away. I ended up stuck at full draw for probably 30 seconds, and just held at anchor, ready for the shot if it presented itself. This was with my 48# longbow.
I know that there are guys who like to snap-shoot, and who don't hold long. I also know that there are a lot of guys who can't shoot very far and are quite inconsistent. I'm just a slightly above-average shooter, but have heard a lot of compound shooters at ranges say that I shoot pretty good for a "trad guy"... that most of the trad guys they see are very inaccurate. I've never spent much time with other trad shooters, so can't really say what I think about that. But I'm pretty dedicated to being as good as I can be, to have good repeatable form and to be able to hit what I want to hit, when I want to hit it. I would tell anyone that if they can't hold their bow at full draw for at least 10 seconds and then make an "under-control" shot, they are over-bowed, or may have just settled for mediocrity.
If drawing your bow requires any thought in the shooting process,you're over bowed.
Wow! lot's of opinions here! I am not qualified to argue with Mr Ferguson, but 10 seconds sounds like a LONG time. I think we all agree with his thesis, which is you shouldn't be overbowed. It doesn't sound like there is agreement on what exactly that means.
If I could start my trad journey over I'd start really light say 35-40# and work up slowly. Instead I started at 70# and have since dropped to 55#. Light is better, brother. Accuracy is everything and heavy bows are much harder to shoot accurately.
I like Byron Ferguson and think he's a great archery ambassador...but I also disagree very strongly with him on two areas; wood arrows and the validity of instinctive shooting.
And I doubt either one of us will change due to disagreement. :)
I came home tonight and shot a quick video.
http://youtu.be/7unYmYHolRI
I only had about 15-16 yards to shoot (in my basement), but you can see the product of shooting a weight that you can keep under control. It's much better to go a little lighter and shoot good groups over and over instead of struggling with too much weight and settling for weak accuracy.
And 10 seconds really isn't that long.
Not starting with a light weight bow is also acceptable. If you are really just starting out, keep in mind that your capacity to draw and hold heavier weights will increase rapidly as you shoot. If you are athletic, healthy, and build muscle quickly, I suggest considering some of the moderate hunting weights, around 45-50#'s.
To start, your shooting sessions will have to be kept shorter, maybe only a few shots a day and inceasing as your muscles develop. Your shots should be methodical with attention to the fundamentals, but that is the same with any weight bow. If you choose this route, you can't push it and you will need to take days off for your growing muscles to recover.
As others have mentioned, there is an increased chance for injury because you will be increaseing the strain on muscles and joints. Just like any sport, warming up and stetching will go a long way in keeping you healthy.
QuoteOriginally posted by Kingsnake:
I know that VA as a trad bow group, but I'm not sure about any local shoots. I have shot my wheelie down at Ft. Belvoir, but I have not actively particpated in any group events, so I do not know what percentage of shooters are trad guys. I'll will try to get hands on some trad bows to try before I buy...
There are several of us...Have not been down there this week due to family being in town and the fishing picking up but you are welcome to shoot my stuff while I am there. Paul Vogel is another regular (intructs as well) that may be able to help as well (he is the one who wears a circle bandaid on his nose while he shoots). There are a few more Trad guys that shoot the pin shoots and upcoming 3D shoots. Check the schedule and show up for one of the 3D shoots, you will meet several great folks!
Thanks, all. Killdeer let me shoot a bunch of bows and I finally ordered and received a Samick Sage 60 in, 45# recurve, 28 in draw. Still not grouping like I would like, but I am also trying to get used to not having the crutches known as 'let off,' 'sights,' and 'a mechanical release.' Will keep you posted on progress!
Orion and Bjorn hit it right on the head. Bows in the 35-45# range are great to start with, and in some cases are all the bow ever needed by the archer.I also feel if the bow can be held for 3 seconds then accuratly released...it's fine. Good info for the new archer on this thread.....john